Minimize an Acarya at your own risk

[andy108]

 

 

For it is written in the Sri Isopanishad.

 

 

 

 

Mantra Twelve

TEXT

andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti

ye 'sambhūtim upāsate

tato bhūya iva te tamo

ya u sambhūtyām ratāḥ

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

 

 

Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute.

 

 

 

 

From Purport

 

 

 

 

..."The Lord states that as soon as one reaches Him by devotional service-which is the one and only way to approach the Personality of Godhead-one attains complete freedom from the bondage of birth and death. In other words, the path of salvation from the material clutches fully depends on the principles of knowledge and detachment gained from serving the Lord. The pseudo religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of philanthropic activities disguised as religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative ācāryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction ācāryopāsana-"One must worship the ācārya"-and Kṛṣṇa's statement in the </B>Bhagavad-gītā</B> (

4.2) evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called ācāryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the ācāryas.

 

These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gītā that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19-20). Śrī Īśopaniṣad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.

 

[kaisersose]

 

 

For it is written in the Sri Isopanishad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mantra Twelve

TEXT

andhaṁ tamaḥ praviśanti

ye 'sambhūtim upāsate

tato bhūya iva te tamo

ya u sambhūtyām ratāḥ

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

 

 

Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute.

 

 

 

 

From Purport

 

 

 

 

..."The Lord states that as soon as one reaches Him by devotional service-which is the one and only way to approach the Personality of Godhead-one attains complete freedom from the bondage of birth and death. In other words, the path of salvation from the material clutches fully depends on the principles of knowledge and detachment gained from serving the Lord. The pseudo religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for mostof them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of philanthropic activities disguised as religious principles. By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative ācāryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession. They ignore the Vedic injunction ācāryopāsana-"One must worship the ācārya"-and Kṛṣṇa's statement in the Bhagavad-gītā</B> (</B>

4.2) evaṁ paramparā-prāptam, "This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession." Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called ācāryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the ācāryas.

 

 

 

 

 

These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gītā that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg.

16.19-20). Śrī Īśopaniṣad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.

 

 

 

But how does this matter?

 

You agree that the individual has stepped out of the Sampradaya. Then how much does a threat which is based on a Sampradaya specific translation matter to the individual? Because I am sure you are aware that the Ishvasya verse is interpreted in completely different ways by different people.

 

Cheers

[Beggar]

The other missions in the Gaudiya line will believe that you are minimizing their acaryas.

[andy108]

Kevin Spacey wrote:

 

But how does this matter?

 

You agree that the individual has stepped out of the Sampradaya. Then how much does a threat which is based on a Sampradaya specific translation matter to the individual? Because I am sure you are aware that the Ishvasya verse is interpreted in completely different ways by different people.

 

Cheers

 

It matters for those who have the perspective that AC Bhaktivedanta Swami fits the description of Acarya.

 

It may or may not matter to those who are on the fence.

 

Out of compassion, my Spiritual Master told us to disobey the order of Lord Krsna to let sleeping dogs lie, and try to preach to them anyway, just in case you know? Beating a dead horse is another thing.

[Beggar]

 

It matters for those who have the perspective that AC Bhaktivedanta Swami fits the description of Acarya.

 

Since Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami was empowered to spread Krsna Conciousness over the oceans and all over the world, then he obviously holds a unique position. Srila Sridhar Maharaja proclaimed him to be a saktyavesa avatara of Lord Nityananda. Really he is in a category by himself, but it doesn't mean that other acaryas do not presently preach and give hari katha in this world. Now some will bring up where he said that none of his godbrothers were qualified to be acarya, but in that instance acarya meant the head of a specific preaching institution. The general meaning of acarya is one who preaches by making their life an example.

[sambya]

you must realise that there are innumerable different interpretations of virtually every sloka in hinduism . and even there are different versions of the same sloka ..

 

i have this same sloka in the following manner ----

 

andham tamah pravishyanti ye avidyamupasate

tato bhuyoh iva te tamo ya u vidyayam ratah .

 

 

andham -- blind

tamah--darkness

pravishyanti--enters

ye--those who

avidyam upasyate--worships avidya

tato bhuyoh iva-- even more than that

tamah--darkness

ya u--but who

vidyayam ratah--engaged in vidya

 

 

those who are engaged in worship of avidya enter into darkness . but still more so do those who are engaged with vidya.

 

now this might come as a shock . we know vidya to be interpreted as knowledge and avidya as ignorance . but here it is said that both vidya and avidya leads one to darkness !!!

 

according to one interpretation here avidya refers to fruitive activities like charity , yajna etc and vidya refers to any worship for the want of material rewards or sense gratification . thus both leads one away from true realization .

 

normally what you interpret as ' demigod ' are called as devas in sanskrit . but even in your sloka i did not find any such word . so i failed to understand the manner in which it was translated . since you are knowledgeble enough to post such a serious discussion i would request you to kindly explain how this translation was effected. what are the meanings and interpretaions of sambhutim and sambhutyam ?

 

 

"This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession."

while i dont deny disciplic succession i would like to konw what you think of mira -- the legendary royal princess who gave up everything for want of krishna and had no guru ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kaisersose]

 

normally what you interpret as ' demigod ' are called as devas in sanskrit . but even in your sloka i did not find any such word . so i failed to understand the manner in which it was translated . since you are knowledgeble enough to post such a serious discussion i would request you to kindly explain how this translation was effected. what are the meanings and interpretaions of sambhutim and sambhutyam ?

 

You are asking too much from copy-paste artists.

 

They apparently have the time and energy to engage in partisan politics among the various Gaudiya camps and to pontificate on gay marriages. If that is how they wish to spend their time, so be it.

 

 

"This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession."

 

That is funny. There is no disciplic succession from Vyasa or Krishna to Prabhupada where the message of the Gita was transferred faithfully without change. Madhvacharya is part of that alleged disciplic chain and his message of the Gita was very different. So anyone who came after him in that chain and differs from his teaching has effectively broken the chain and therefore Prabhupada is not in a disciplic succession. QED.

 

It is obviously just a sales pitch to fool people who do not know better and evidently it has worked well too.

 

Cheers

[andy108]

 

Since Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami was empowered to spread Krsna Conciousness over the oceans and all over the world, then he obviously holds a unique position. Srila Sridhar Maharaja proclaimed him to be a saktyavesa avatara of Lord Nityananda. Really he is in a category by himself, but it doesn't mean that other acaryas do not presently preach and give hari katha in this world. Now some will bring up where he said that none of his godbrothers were qualified to be acarya, but in that instance acarya meant the head of a specific preaching institution. The general meaning of acarya is one who preaches by making their life an example.

 

As is your M.O. Beggar, one does not even need to HINT, forget about IMPLY that A.C. Bhakitvedanta Swami Prabhupada is the only one who may be an ideal teacher (lesser meaning of acarya in your book) and the only one speaking Hari katha in this world.

 

Yet you invariably reply to any glorification of Swamiji's acarya-hood by implying that the glorifier is minimizing all the other wonderful acaryas by doing so.

 

Mull it over. Sounds like Acarya-envy to me.

[andy108]

 

You are asking too much from copy-paste artists.

 

That is funny. There is no disciplic succession from Vyasa or Krishna to Prabhupada where the message of the Gita was transferred faithfully without change. Madhvacharya is part of that alleged disciplic chain and his message of the Gita was very different. So anyone who came after him in that chain and differs from his teaching has effectively broken the chain and therefore Prabhupada is not in a disciplic succession. QED.

 

 

 

Those are quite some claims. Spoken as an authority. Except it seems unlikely that a true authority who is exhorting such challenges against someone who is world reknowned by scholars and laymen alike as the foremost proponent of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, would do so in a public forum in such a whimsical and cavalier fashion, without giving examples to back up such profound and encompassing claims.

 

You obviously have no concept of the essence of the message of the Gita, and how it can be passed along in succession in Spirit, although perhaps colored differently in letter from one realizer of the essence to another.

 

You appear to be an empty fraud, and think others can't see your big fat bottom even when your drawers are fallen around your ankles.

 

Don't let the door smack it on the way out.

[sambya]

andy108 , im waiting for my answers ........................

[andy108]

 

andy108 , im waiting for my answers ........................

 

 

i have this same sloka in the following manner ----

 

Then you start your own Spiritually based system of social and religous orders, based on how you interpret Scripture. Have at it. Until you do so, I can't imagine you can get an abundance of pleasure out of criticizing a group who has already established a system and are doing their best to live it out.

 

But perhaps you cannot give commentary on all the core Vedic scriptures, place other human beings who are completely non-conversant with Vedic culture under your wing, and traverse the globe with them chanting the glories of Sri Krsna.

 

So I guess you have to settle for what you can. How about just getting a job? Take up tiddlywinks? Learn ayurvedic medicine to relieve mundane suffering? Anything must be better than being a nosy armchair quarterback eh?

[Beggar]

 

... Sounds like Acarya-envy to me.

 

This is what I have heard from my gurus: The conditioned soul has become envious of the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna, although his intrinsic nature is as the eternal servant of the Lord. This was Srila Prabhupada's preaching message, as the representative of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. His meditation was not who was envious of his spiritual master.

The practitioner will feel in their bhajan that, "it is I who do to envy am the worst servant of my guru". To measure the devotion of others is something that only gurudeva will do as an expert physician for his disciples and it is an act of true compassion and mercy (jiva daya). For the sake of preaching a devotee on the level of true attainment, may seek to assert themselves for the benefit of others. To do so in a lesser stage would be to pose as an imposter guru (formal or not) which will benefit no one.

[andy108]

 

This is what I have heard from my gurus: The conditioned soul has become envious of the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna, although his intrinsic nature is as the eternal servant of the Lord. This was Srila Prabhupada's preaching message, as the representative of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. His meditation was not who was envious of his spiritual master.

The practitioner will feel in their bhajan that, "it is I who do to envy am the worst servant of my guru". To measure the devotion of others is something that only gurudeva will do as an expert physician for his disciples and it is an act of true compassion and mercy (jiva daya). For the sake of preaching a devotee on the level of true attainment, may seek to assert themselves for the benefit of others. To do so in a lesser stage would be to pose as an imposter guru (formal or not) which will benefit no one.

 

Hello! You missed my point. Nowhere from the beginning of this thread to the end did I compare my Srila Prabhupada to anyone, nor did I demean any other Vaisnava. This has happened before with you. I glorify Srila Prabhupada with NO HINT of implying he is better or worse than anyone else you hold dear, but you reflexively start in with "there are more than one acarya", "so many think their acarya is the only acarya", etc. But without cause.

 

In other words, I cannot glorify my Acarya without failing to mention the glories of one or two other devotees who others consider acaryas without you jumping in and calling me a "prabhupada-onlyite".

 

It gets old.

 

Now, if you were to refer to the instance where someone minimizes my Srila Prabhupada's position based on the teachings or instructions of someone they follow as acarya, then there is room for discussion or debate seeking harmony if possible. But that is another creature.

[Beggar]

 

 

In other words, I cannot glorify my Acarya without failing to mention the glories of one or two other devotees who others consider acaryas without you jumping in and calling me a "prabhupada-onlyite".

 

It gets old.

 

Now, if you were to refer to the instance where someone minimizes my Srila Prabhupada's position based on the teachings or instructions of someone they follow as acarya, then there is room for discussion or debate seeking harmony if possible. But that is another creature.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps I jumped to conclusions and you may be right about that. I don't know why I ever learned to talk anyway? Anyway I say its better to be a Prabhupada-only-ite than a stalagmite or a stalactite. BTW to you know the difference?

 

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[TRANSLATED]

[andy108]

Well Beggar, if you are implying that sticking with unwavering chastity and exclusivity to the sadhana instructions dispensed by a recognized saktavesha avatara who patiently explained the essential purport of the Creme de la Creme of all Vedic Literature, with ripened Mango fruit on top, to a bunch of monkeys like us, is somewhat akin to becoming crystalized, may my all my bodies become like a big fat diamond that can distribute his Mercy and Sri Krsna's glory in all its Multifaceted Beauty.

 

Hare Krsna

[AncientMariner]

Seen this same sort of degate go on for years on this forum. I got to admit I like this andy fella. A breath of fresh air although I have come to respect Beggar's steadfast devotion to Prabhupada's godbrothers. For me personally Prabhupada is still the main man simply because he left India all alone and basically took on the forces of maya in the west as a solitary old man. I know I wouldn't have the stones to do that especially knowing what I know about western society. If I was in Prabhupada's postion I would have said to myself "those people are screwed over there, I am staying put and gonna play it safe."

 

 

I do not mean that as in anyway minimization of the accomplishments of Prabhupada's godbrothers but to me Prabhupada is the original gangsta so to speak, pioneer of Krishna Consciousness in the west. I can understand some of Kulapavana's criticisms of Prabhupada considering some of the horrors that Iskcon produced but given with what Prabhupada what he was up against I just cannot in good conscience blame Prabhupada for any of it but I also admit the only knowledge I have of Iskcon and its history is from reading and have no first hand experience.

 

 

I often find the whole mission of Krishna Consciousness to be a bit of contradiction because it says it is an offense to preach Krishna Consciousness to the faithless but in trying to spread Krishna Consciousness in the West if you want to be official about following the rules the safest thing to do would be to not speak to people about Krishna Consciousness because virtually everyone is a faithless demon from a Krishna Consciousness perspective. Like a lot of Krishna Consciousness it seems like there are divine contradictions and it is like walking a tighrope and living on a razors edge so Prabhupada was doing the best he could in my estimation. Ol Prabhupada did alright.

[andy108]

Fresh air to some, hot air to others.

 

Of course I would rather believe you.

 

As for preaching to the faithless, here is the justification for those who dare.

 

BG 3.29

 

Translation "Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become attached. But the wise should not unsettle them although these duties are inferior due to the performers' lack of knowledge.

 

Purport: "Men who are ignorant cannot appreciate activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and therefore Lord Kṛṣṇa advises us not to disturb them and simply waste valuable time. But the devotees of the Lord are more kind than the Lord because they understand the purpose of the Lord. Consequently they undertake all kinds of risks even to the point of approaching ignorant men to try and engage them in the acts of Kṛṣṇa consciousness which are absolutely necessary for the human being."

 

Further commentary during lecture on this verse....

 

 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa said that devotees, that you should not disturb them. But devotees are so kind that taking all risk. Just like Nityānanda Prabhu took all risk, Lord Jesus Christ took all risk. Therefore a devotee is more kind than God. A devotee is more merciful than God Himself. We should always remember this.

And therefore Kṛṣṇa says, mad-bhaktaḥ pūjyābhyādhika. "Anyone who worships My devotee, he worships more than what he can do for Me." That means He appreciates the worship of His devotee than to Himself. So actually, devotees are so kind. Kṛṣṇa says, "Those who are absorbed too much in material consciousness, don't disturb them." But devotees take the risks, even at the cost of life. Therefore devotee is so dear to Kṛṣṇa. That will be explained in the Eighteenth chapter. "The person who takes all risk for preaching God consciousness, nobody is dearer than him in the human society." Kṛṣṇa says like that.

[sambya]

 

Then you start your own Spiritually based system of social and religous orders, based on how you interpret Scripture. Have at it. Until you do so, I can't imagine you can get an abundance of pleasure out of criticizing a group who has already established a system and are doing their best to live it out.

hey !!! where in this thread did i criticise anything ?? cant i express the alternative views that are existing ?

 

 

But perhaps you cannot give commentary on all the core Vedic scriptures

yes , i cant . but what is ' core vedic scriptures ' and who gave its complete undisputed translations till date ? can you suggest any name ?

 

 

place other human beings who are completely non-conversant with Vedic culture under your wing,

yes , i can never do that . because bhakti is a rarest of rare phenomenon which is seen in only some blessed individuals due to previous life's good samskars (impressions) . it is seen to arise in a person's life spontaneously and does not require external preaching etc etc . external preaching and such things can make one religious , moral or spiritually inclined at the most . but true spirituality ( brahma jigyasa ) is always inherent and spontaneous.

 

where did i criticise ? infact it was you who made implied criticisms when you said that bhakti is the only way to god. im just asking some basic questions to get a better understanding of your theory.----

 

1--what are the meanings and interpretaions of sambhutim and sambhutyam ?

 

2--what you think of mira -- the legendary royal princess who gave up everything for want of krishna and had no guru ?

 

if you cant answer and also lack in a basic knowledge of sanskrit then it would be best to stop posting such views.

[andy108]

 

hey !!! where in this thread did i criticise anything ?? cant i express the alternative views that are existing ?

 

I apologize Sambya. I was in defensive mode and mistook your inquiry, though presented in a challenging mood, as criticism.

 

 

you must realise that there are innumerable different interpretations of virtually every sloka in hinduism . and even there are different versions of the same sloka ..

 

What you say here is very true. I am no sanskrit scholar. I have a strong intermediate grasp of the length and breadth of English language and grammar. That is it.

 

What has allowed me to cut through the need for Sanskrit scholarship and has enabled me to have faith in the translations of these Verses, without spending a lifetime learning sanskrit so I can double check each one for myself is the following.

 

I started with the simple things. This swami requested I chant a simple mantra, which was easy for even me to verify the translation of, and gave me an idea of how it might affect me if I happened to be chanting it from a position of sincere submissive inquiry into its mysteries.

 

I did, and he was right.

 

He also, in English, requested I follow some other easy to understand instructions, and that in doing so, my character would change in certain favorable ways, that I would become purified of unfavorable material attachments, and that the essential import of the flowery Vedic scriptures would be revealed in the heart of my mind.

 

It worked.

 

Then he assured me that his English translations and purports were dictated to the heart of his mind by the speaker of the Gita Himself, due to his fully surrendered communion in service to his servants. That if I continued to read them, in sequence, they would be plainly understandable, increase my knowledge of my self, the Lord, and the activities I can engage in to strengthen my relationship with the Lord. And that even the nuances of Sanskrit would become apparent, if I had the desire to concentrate on that aspect.

 

There are as many ways to interpret the dialogue between Lord Krsna and Arjuna, Srila Sukadeva Goswami and Pariksit Maharaja, etc. as there are embodies souls on the planet. There are many Muni's who are sanskrit scholars, and they all have a different take. This is interpretation. Not translation.

 

Translation comes through either being told what it means by authority, and repeating that purely, or by receiving dictation by the Lord in the heart. All else is speculative interpretation.

 

Please read the story at the following link that describes how a very advanced Indian bodied Sanskrit scholar and confidential disciple of AC Bhaktivedanta Swami sought out his retired Sanskrit teacher from college, considered a foremost scholar in all of India, and what transpired in their discussions regarding why Srila Prabhupada's tranlated devanagari text in such seemingly unorthodox ways, like "sambhutim" and "sambhutyam" from Isopanishad verse 12, and I assure you it will leave you breathlessly in bliss.

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/12-06/editorials998.htm