Be afraid, very afraid

[theist]

Letter to: Jadurani

—

Los Angeles

13 January, 1968

68-01-13

My Dear Jadurani,

Please accept my blessings. I thank you for your nice letters of Jan. 11, and 13. I thank you for your kind appreciation for the tapes received there. Also, thank you that you are trying to organize all the artists, and doing so nicely. No, there is no color picture of Lord Caitanya's birthplace and temple at Mayapur. You can color with your choice. Yes, try at your convenience to paint pictures from the Bhagavat statement, in terms of the purport and explanation.

So long we have got materialistic view the serpent is fierce. When Prahlada Maharaja saw Lord Nrsimhadeva, he was not at all afraid of the fierceful feature of the Lord. The big jaws and nails of the Lord Nrsimhadeva and fiery tongue of the Lord, and gigantic Lion's Head did not create any fierceful havoc before Prahlada Maharaja. He said, "My Dear Lord, I am not afraid of this your fierceful feature, but I am afraid of the repeated cycle of birth and death in the material existence.'' That instruction is very valuable. In our material existence, we are always in dangerous and fierceful condition, but by the spell of Maya, we do not take it very seriously. The Serpent-like feature of the Lord is another expansion of the Lord, to provide His Place on the Ocean. He is not at all fierceful to the devotees.

Yes, the ecstasy of separation of Spiritual Master is even greater ecstasy than meeting with Him.

Please continue your excellent service and I will always be so pleased with your sincere service, as I am so much happy with you. Hope you are well, and I hope your injured thumb is now fully recovered.

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[primate]

Why?

[Beggar]

 

Yes, the ecstasy of separation of Spiritual Master is even greater ecstasy than meeting with Him.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

 

According to the degree of love and affection towards someone, one will experience that much separation for a person. The gopis had so much affection for Sri Krsna, and that is why they felt so much separation when He went to Mathura. We have read about the various stages of their separation in the Srimad-Bhagavatam and other scriptures.

Similarly, the more one is attached to Srila Gurudeva’s lotus feet, the more separation one will feel in his absence. We see the topmost example of this in the life of Srila Ragunatha dasa Gosvami, who had so much affection in his heart towards his siksa-gurus, Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Sanatana Gosvami. What was the condition of Srila Raghunatha das Gosvami when their pastimes became un-manifest in this world? He saw Giriraja Govardhana like a python, all of Vraja seemed empty to him, and appeared like the mouth of a very ferocious tiger. Due to his love and affection, this is how he described his separation from Srila Rupa and Sanatana Gosvamis.

According to how much affection you have towards your Gurudeva’s lotus feet, that much separation you will feel. You must understand that the devotee who feels separation from his Guru is very elevated in bhakti, and he will soon attain the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Without Gurudeva’s mercy, this is not possible.

 

 

[theist]

 

Why?

 

Why fear samsara? Because to be caught in the wheel of continuous suffering is not a happy situation primate. Don't you want to be happy? Of course, everyone does.

 

Why are we experiencing repeated birth and death? Because we are forgetfull of our relationship with God.

 

Prahlada was speaking for our benefit to inspire us to act in our own 'enightened self interest' as andy put it.

 

Lord Caitanya's vision was not to fear repeated birth and death. So is this a contradiction? No. This is the Lord revealing wisdom to us where we are at so that we may one day partake of Lord Caitanya's mood. That cannot be faked. It is the end result of acting for our own self interest.

 

Really Prahlada is saying the only thing he fears is forgetfullness of Krishna, the cycle of birth and death is really just a symptom of that.

[gauragopala dasa]

 

Why fear samsara? Because to be caught in the wheel of continuous suffering is not a happy situation primate. Don't you want to be happy? Of course, everyone does.

 

Why are we experiencing repeated birth and death? Because we are forgetfull of our relationship with God.

 

Prahlada was speaking for our benefit to inspire us to act in our own 'enightened self interest' as andy put it.

 

Lord Caitanya's vision was not to fear repeated birth and death. So is this a contradiction? No. This is the Lord revealing wisdom to us where we are at so that we may one day partake of Lord Caitanya's mood. That cannot be faked. It is the end result of acting for our own self interest.

 

Really Prahlada is saying the only thing he fears is forgetfullness of Krishna, the cycle of birth and death is really just a symptom of that.

 

NICE POST

[primate]

Somehow I have a problem with the instruction to be very afraid of Samsara/Karma. I feel that religious practice shouldn’t be based on fear. And what is there to be afraid of? Maya/unhappiness/illusion? And how much choice do we actually have, given our minute free will? I would rather say: be aware or be conscious. Be very conscious..

[theist]

 

Somehow I have a problem with the instruction to be very afraid of Samsara/Karma. I feel that religious practice shouldn’t be based on fear.

 

 

 

That's fine then base it on love. The question is are you really doing that? If not then base it on enlightened self interest and seek to end your suffering. And if you don't think you are suffering then you should be very afraid of your ignorance.

 

 

And what is there to be afraid of? Maya/unhappiness/illusion?

 

 

Uhhh..yeah. That is the point. You can pretend that they mean nothing to you because you are Brahman but we here would know that you are just faking it.

 

 

 

And how much choice do we actually have, given our minute free will?

 

 

 

Minute free will means we have the choice to be controlled by Maya or the internal energy of Krishna. Choose wisely.

 

 

I would rather say: be aware or be conscious. Be very conscious..

 

This is a problem for all us beginners and that includes you...we don't know how to begin properly. It is something like that saying," youth is wasted on the young." But somehow we mull through it.

 

 

If we were conscious of all the implications of samsara we would be very afraid and then do the needful of humbling ourselves before Krishna.

 

 

Of course presently you are an impersonalist so the choice for you is seemingly different. But even Buddha said "all is suffering."

 

 

So this is the starting point...to be aware of the suffering. Not that you live your life consumed by fear but in your life you must have this realization to get motivated for transcending your present situation.

 

 

A crude example. Suppose it is late at night and you have been walking with a friend down a highway with no traffic. You both are walking carefree in the street talking and so forth.

 

 

Suddenly right behind you you hear the loud blast of a truck horn.

 

Do you just say "I will just be conscious of the truck as it passes" and experience no fear and remaining in the street?

 

Myself I will be conscious as well as frightened and jump out of the the way of the on coming truck.

 

One who is self-realized can face the truck with no fear. He may jump or not jump it is the same for him. He is already done with birth and death.

 

 

But that is not the case with you or I.

 

Among other things Prabhupada's teachings are very practical on an earthly as well as transcendent level. This was a teaching to his disciple Jadurani and is universal also. We can learn from it or not.

[primate]

You are right of course. I am a 'beginner'. And I am certainly not an expert on samsara/karma. But its action-reaction-like dynamics does make some sense to me, although logically it’s a process that we cannot end by ourselves.

 

Do you think people should be 'afraid' of karmic reactions in the next life, when living a relatively normal life in a Western country, e.g., as a vegitarian and conform Christian values? Is liberation through Krishna consciousness and service the only 'save' option?

 

BTW, I’m not an impersonalist. I’m more or less agnostic on personalism. As I said elsewhere: Impersonal oneness must be true, but simultaneously the absolute Truth may be a person (Krishna). I guess that must be possible..

[andy108]

"Impersonal oneness must be true, but simultaneously the absolute Truth may be a person (Krishna). I guess that must be possible.."

 

Everything has a cause. People create apple pies, space-stations, paint from herbs, masterpieces of art.

 

Do you know any people who can create countless planets, hang them in space, create countless bodily species on these planets, and organize the spirits to animate them and leave the bodies in dust in such perfect syncronicity?

 

Even using Logic, we must deduce that some person has the intelligence to cause this effect you see.

 

If that person is not the absolute be all and end all of Personalities, well...

 

And one other thing, being an average good person builds pious credits and good karma, and since what comes around goes around, one must experience the reactions/consequences of their good karma as well. This is a scriptural basic.

 

Liberation is ultimately having no binding material reaction to anything one does in the material realm. One can only be protected from being forced to experience reactions to their activities in the material realm by the Grace of the Absolute Person. Serving Him has its own unique consequences, and always promoting an increase of love and ecstasy instead of some troublesome obligation to receiving the pre-destined robotic results of good or bad deeds.

[theist]

 

You are right of course. I am a 'beginner'. And I am certainly not an expert on samsara/karma. But its action-reaction-like dynamics does make some sense to me, although logically it’s a process that we cannot end by ourselves.

 

 

Yes we all are beginners. Can't end ourselves is absolutely true. God's grace is necessary.

Do you think people should be 'afraid' of karmic reactions in the next life, when living a relatively normal life in a Western country, e.g., as a vegitarian and conform Christian values?

 

 

Well if you mean the average life of today's Christians then yes they should be afraid. Srila Prabhupada in above letter is telling one of his more experience disciples to be afraid.

 

For the few that are living the teachings of Christ they need not live in fear but much still be cautious.Walking the spiritual path through the material world requires keeping a sort of edge mentality. One can get tripped up so easily. Becoming complacent is one example or as Jesus put it becoming luke warm. This happens to be my personal pit that I have fallen into. It's hard to climb out.

 

Again it's not living in fear 24 hr.s a day. Butwe have to become motivate to end the evil cycle of birth old age and disease. Realizing this is described as knowledge in the Bhagavad-gita.

 

 

 

 

 

Is liberation through Krishna consciousness and service the only 'save' option?

 

 

As Vaisnava's describe being saved then yes it is. However love of God experienced by members of any religion (or no particular religion) is also Krishna consciousness because Krishna is God.

 

 

BTW, I’m not an impersonalist. I’m more or less agnostic on personalism. As I said elsewhere: Impersonal oneness must be true, but simultaneously the absolute Truth may be a person (Krishna). I guess that must be possible.

 

 

Or I did not see that post and misunderstood your position. My apologies.

I greatly respect agnostics because they are honest with themselves and others. They don't know and say so. Whereas the atheist pretends to know absolutely that there is no God and most theist (like myself) usually try to sound like we are beyond all doubts. As time goes by dounbts become less and less.

 

I am intellectually satisfied there is a personal God but because I do not fear maya enough I linger in this material world still trying to enjoy the suffering it offers.

[bhaktajan]

Is this relevant or valid?:

Deepak Chopra said [i'm paraphrasing here]:

"We fear the known. We cannot fear the unknown".

[theist]

 

Is this relevant or valid?:

 

Deepak Chopra said [i'm paraphrasing here]:

"We fear the known. We cannot fear the unknown".

 

 

Not sure what he means. A person can fear going around a corner because it is unknown to him what he will find.

 

 

On the other hand we know what birth death old age and disease are and we should know that to stay in such a cycle is worth fearing.

[kaisersose]

 

Is this relevant or valid?:

 

Deepak Chopra said [i'm paraphrasing here]:

"We fear the known. We cannot fear the unknown".

 

We can fear both the known and the unknown. The kid is scared to enter water though he has never done it before. A person who has has suffered tooth pain is afraid that he may experience it again.

 

We fear any possible pain.

 

Cheers

[bhaktajan]

Are you two colluding, now?

..............................................

 

Deepak Chopra said [i'm paraphrasing here]:

"We fear the known. We cannot fear the unknown".

This is not a trick calculus question.

 

The child does not fear putting their hand into the fire until they are told and scoulded!

 

The criminal fears nothing --and learns by penance [penitentiary; Jail; Prison].

 

The consequences are to be feared. Ignorance of the law is no excuse --but until the bank-robbery is caught and convicted before a court-review of the truth --the bank-robbery will enjoy his stolen booty.

 

Innocense is made into knowledge after the endeavor [or stunt] is lived through.

 

We do not fear the "unknown"-- we presume to anticipate all possiblities that are within our known experience.

 

We cannot fear something that is beautiful, enticing & sense-gratifying and a transimitter of venereal-disease --until we are educated on the subject, even to the point of goverment intervention to the point of barring distribution and uses of "controlled-substances".

 

To not be educated as to what should be feared and what should be sought --then we are in ignorance.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Hey K,

"The kid is scared to enter water though he has never done it before."

So un-well thought out!

You have never heard of children walking into a swimming pool --to their death?

BTW, You have never heard of distracted people walking into the path of a speeding car or train?

They know of the danger --they were not fearing it at that moment --due to ignorance of their vicinity to danger.

[Amlesh]

Superb post Bhaktajan.

Simply outstanding.

Thanks Pal.

[Kulapavana]

Many people are afraid of the dark, even if nothing bad ever happened to them in the dark. That is something like the fear of the unknown.

[visnujana]

 

He said, "My Dear Lord, I am not afraid of this your fierceful feature, but I am afraid of the repeated cycle of birth and death in the material existence.''

In my opinion here this is the same as to say: "I am afraid to forget You (my Lord)". Definitely a devotee (especially such liberated soul as Sri Prahlad Maharaja) never fears the sufferings of this world, nor does he care for it's pleasures. This is the general meaning of liberation. But a devotee will never want to forget the Lord, and this is just the symptom and nature of his loving attachment to the Lord. Samsara also represents time... and we know (have heard) that a moment in separation from the Lord lasts like 12 years or more..

So I suppose and pray that these words of Prahlada Maharaja should and will encourage me to develop attachment to my Lord as much as (or hopefully more) than to get out of this terrible place.

[visnujana]

 

Many people are afraid of the dark, even if nothing bad ever happened to them in the dark. That is something like the fear of the unknown.

This is very true. In a similar way most of people in this world have an inborn fear of supreme judge or anyway some supreme power that they are ultimately liable to. The other tendency amongst the human beings (according to Jaiva-Dharma) is to have the spontaneous interest in having a particular relationship with the Lord just like that of some of His dear and near devotees. It is said that this happens very rare and this is always a result of some special mercy of the Lord or His devotee.

This is explained in Jaiva-Dharma, Bhakti-Rasamrita-Sindhu and other bhakti-sastras.

[bhaktajan]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0> <TBODY> <TR> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Many people are afraid of the dark, even if nothing bad ever happened to them in the dark. That is something like the fear of the unknown.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I do not agree, but . . . I'm reminded:

 

On the first day in kindergarten, when I was 5 years old, a classmate was escorted by her mum to the classroom --the mother then turned to leave --the little girl went berserk, running back and forth from the door to the teacher's desk and back again all the while screaming at the top of her voice, even jumping up on the desk and the door. Like a wild monkey, I thought at the time.

 

That little girl certainly knew nothing of what she SHOULD fear (On her first day in kindergarten) --but she knew certainly that she would be left without the presense of her mother.

This she knew, and thus she screamed.

Did she further consider that her mum was abandoning her without returning?

 

She had presumptions of the consequences that prompted her behavior --that may have been due to experiences I was not privy to; or she may have been too imaginative; or too demanding --in any case I do not think that the child was screaming for her mum to return because of the 'logic' of worst-case scenarios of her destiny.

[tackleberry]

 

Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by Kulapavana

Many people are afraid of the dark, even if nothing bad ever happened to them in the dark. That is something like the fear of the unknown.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

I do not agree, but . . . I'm reminded:

 

On the first day in kindergarten, when I was 5 years old, a classmate was escorted by her mum to the classroom --the mother then turned to leave --the little girl went berserk, running back and forth from the door to the teacher's desk and back again all the while screaming at the top of her voice, even jumping up on the desk and the door. Like a wild monkey, I thought at the time.

 

That little girl certainly knew nothing of what she SHOULD fear (On her first day in kindergarten) --but she knew certainly that she would be left without the presense of her mother.

This she knew, and thus she screamed.

Did she further consider that her mum was abandoning her without returning?

 

She had presumptions of the consequences that prompted her behavior --that may have been due to experiences I was not privy to; or she may have been too imaginative; or too demanding --in any case I do not think that the child was screaming for her mum to return because of the 'logic' of worst-case scenarios of her destiny.

 

This is the first time you've responded like a normal, level-headed guy. Congratulations!

[primate]

Logically, fear of the unknown cannot be based on knowledge of the unknown. Thus, fear of the unknown seems to be caused by premature expectations of the unknown, based on known experience. When previous experience in life has been traumatic or generally frightening, one might be afraid of the unknown (as well as the known) to some degree. Fear of the unknown may even be related to the trauma of birth or prenatal experience..

 

[bhaktajan]

tackleberry,

You scare me. Do I scare you?

[Beggar]

 

tackleberry,

You scare me. Do I scare you?

 

 

France was a very scary place to be in nineteen-forty!

La France était un endroit très effrayant à être dans dix-neuf-quarante!

 

 

[primate]

 

Logically, fear of the unknown cannot be based on knowledge of the unknown. Thus, fear of the unknown seems to be caused by premature expectations of the unknown, based on known experience. When previous experience in life has been traumatic or generally frightening, one might be afraid of the unknown (as well as the known) to some degree. Fear of the unknown may even be related to the trauma of birth or prenatal experience..

 

Beggar, can you say that in French?

[Amlesh]

 

 

France was a very scary place to be in nineteen-forty!

La France était un endroit très effrayant à être dans dix-neuf-quarante!

 

 

 

 

Oui, quand on a un etre comme Hitler a la tete, c'est comme ca.