Marginal potency of the Lord

[gauragopala dasa]

 

 

Marginal potency of the Lord

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because they are (jiva tattva) between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. (Bhäg. 2.5.19,

Srila Prabhupada - “Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. (Bhäg. 2.5.19,

Srila Prabhupada - “This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity’s eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant.” (Bhäg. 2.5.19, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Similarly, there was no necessity to create this material world for the sufferings of the conditioned souls, but at the same time there are certain living entities, known as nitya-baddha, who are eternally conditioned. We say that they have been conditioned from time immemorial because no one can trace out when the living entity, the part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, became rebellious against the supremacy of the Lord. (Which means originally the nitya baddhas were all nitya siddha devotees) (Bhäg. 3.26.5, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “It is a fact that there are two classes of men... Without tracing out the beginning of the existence of these two classes, we can take it for granted that some of the living entities revolted against the laws of the Lord. Such entities are called conditioned souls (nitya-baddhas)... Covered by the material body, the spiritual identity (nitya-siddha) is lost, and therefore the word mumuhe is used here, indicating that they have forgotten their own spiritual identity (nitya-siddha).” (Bhäg. 3.26.5, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “It is clear that a particular body is given to the living entity for a particular type of activity. This process is going on perpetually, from a time which it is impossible to trace out. (Bhäg. 3.31.44, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Vaishava poets say, therefore, anädi karama-phale, which means that these actions and reactions of one’s activity cannot be traced, for they may even continue from the last millennium of Brahmä’s birth to the next millennium.” (Bhäg. 3.31.44, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Eternally conditioned nitya-baddha) means we do not know when we have been conditioned like this. It is not possible to trace out the history. Because living entity, by nature, he is not conditioned NOT nitya-baddha). But actually we see that we are conditioned, and there is no possibility to trace out the history. (Cc. lecture, January 9, 1967, New York)

Srila Prabhupada - “Many, many Brahmä’s life. Not only one Brahmä’s. There are so many Brahmäs changed, and we are conditioned. So therefore we are called eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha).” (Cc. lecture, January 9, 1967, New York)

Srila Prabhupada - “So some way or other, originally, we are all Krishna conscious, pure, svaccha. Svacchatvam avikäritvam. Now, being transformed or agitated somehow or other... Anädi-karama-phale, padi’ bhavärëava-jale. We cannot ascertain when this transformation took place...

Srila Prabhupada - “How we fell, you can trace out the history, but it is very difficult because anädi karama phale, nobody can ascertain. Just like when a man is diseased, he goes to doctor... There is no necessity to find out the history how he fell diseased.

Srila Prabhupada - “There is history (but the cause of many cancers is unknown). Therefore it is said, anädi karama-phale. Anädi. Anädi means... Ädi means the creation. Creation... before creation, I [become] contaminated [with] this desire, icchä-dveña samutthena.” (Bhäg. lecture, January 1, 1975, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “And there are innumerable spiritual living entities also. And some of them, those who are not fit to live in that spiritual world, they are, I mean to say, sent to this material world”. (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York)

Srila Prabhupada - “The same idea is expressed in Milton’s Paradise Lost. So we, all conditioned souls, we are practically living in a place after Paradise Lost. We should understand this... (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York)

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are spirit soul. We should not have accepted this material body. But when we have accepted, how we accepted, there cannot be any tracing of history. It is not possible. Anädi karama. Anädi karama. (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York)

Srila Prabhupada - “Nobody can trace out the history, when we, the conditioned soul, accepted this material body.” (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York)

Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, ‘...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...’ You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (or nitya baddhas). Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent.” (Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968)

 

[Sonic Yogi]

CC Adi 2.96 purport

 

 

Although all three potencies — namely internal, external and marginal — are essentially one in the ultimate issue, they are different in action, like electric energy, which can produce both cold and heat under different conditions. The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa.

In the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions as marginal or external.

 

In the spiritual world there is no marginal or external energy.

 

Upon liberation the jiva enters into the internal energy.

 

There are no marginal energies on the spiritual planets.

 

All the energies there are internal.

[Sonic Yogi]

CC 2.96. purport:

 

 

These three energies of the Absolute Truth are also described in the Visnu Purana, where it is said that the living being is equal in quality to the internal potency, whereas the external potency is indirectly controlled by the chief cause of all causes.

[Sonic Yogi]

CC Adi 2.103 purport:

 

 

The internal potency of the Lord, which is called cit-śakti or antarańga-śakti, exhibits variegatedness in the transcendental Vaikuṇṭha cosmos. Besides ourselves, there are unlimited numbers of liberated living beings who associate with the Personality of Godhead in His innumerable features.

[Beggar]

The idea that the jiva glanced at the material energy and was captivated by it instantly, must be seen in the light that the Lord is omniscient. The omniscient Lord, Bhagavan, has made the arrangement that there is no need of an envious jiva to entire Vaikuntha and disturb the atmosphere there. The test takes place at the very beginning but actually there is no beginning; now ponder that! The words 'tatastha' in Sanskrit and 'marginal' in English are just words. It is not like the eternal living entities are branded, 'tatastha', nor do they get the word tatooed on their behind. Except of course for Gauragopala who has 'marginal' tatooed in his brain.

[Sonic Yogi]

Well, this is Gauragopal's self-appointed war against the Gaudiya Math to try and prove that Sridhar Maharaja and the rest of the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada were all mayavadis because they say the jivas come from the brahmajyoti.

 

It's the same old tired campaign he has been on for years and seems to be the only topic he is interested it.

 

He just can't accept that his "new bhakta" concept of Dreamervad and Fallavad might just be a fable that Prabhupada used to explain things that he knew were too complicated for pea-brained people to grasp.

 

When you have some pea brain asking a very complex question it is generally more practical just to tell some metaphorical example rather than get into a deep shastric dissertation that will just fly over the head of the pea brain.

 

Therefore, the ISKCON myths were born.

[Sonic Yogi]

Try to understand this Gauragopal:

 

TLC ch.31

 

 

Kṛṣṇa has immense energetic expansions. Three energies are predominant: the internal energy, external energy and marginal energy. This is confirmed in the Sixth Chapter of Viṣṇu Purāṇa where it is said that Viṣṇu has one energy, which is called spiritual energy, and it is manifested in three ways. When spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance, it is called marginal energy. As far as spiritual energy itself is concerned, it is exhibited in three forms because Kṛṣṇa is a combination of eternity, bliss and knowledge. As far as His bliss is concerned, His spiritual energy is manifested as the pleasure giving potency. His eternity is manifested as energy, and His knowledge is manifested as spiritual perfection. As confirmed in Viṣṇu Purāṇa (1.12.69): "The pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa gives Kṛṣṇa transcendental pleasure and bliss." Thus when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy pleasure, He exhibits His own spiritual potency known as hlādinī.

 

 

Try to understand that the jiva is marginal energy only when he is overwhelmed by ignorance.

 

The jivas in the spiritual world are not overwhelmed by ignorance.

In fact there is no chance they can be because ignorance does not exist in the spiritual world.

 

There is NO marginal energy in the spiritual world which is all internal energy.

[Beggar]

<table><tbody><tr><td>Madhya-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 22: The Process of Devotional Service</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.11

'nitya-mukta' — nitya kṛṣṇa-caraṇe unmukha

'kṛṣṇa-pāriṣada' nāma, bhuñje sevā-sukha

SYNONYMS

nitya-mukta — eternally liberated; nitya — always; kṛṣṇa-caraṇe — the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa; unmukha — turned toward; kṛṣṇa-pāriṣada — associates of Lord Kṛṣṇa; nāma — known as; bhuñje — enjoy; sevā-sukha — the happiness of service.

TRANSLATION

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They are to be considered eternal associates of Kṛṣṇa, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Kṛṣṇa.

 

[srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja:]

This verse (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 22.11) conveys a very important point. Those who are senior in bhakti will greatly benefit by attentively hearing the meaning of this verse. Those who are beginners may not be able to comprehend the meaning, but they will profit by even trying to understand.

The liberated jivas are eternal associates of Sri Krsna, always engaged in serving Him and always tasting and relishing the sweetness of their service. In the Lord's abode there is no maya (the material potency, which bewilders the conditioned soul and encourages him to identify with his body and bodily extensions). Only yogamaya (the spiritual potency that nourishes the service mood of liberated souls) is there. There is nothing in the spiritual world to make one forget Krsna, and therefore the Lord's associates there cannot forget Him or become adverse to Him. The love and affection of these associates is always fresh and ever-new. Even though, on one hand, there is no room for their ever-fresh love to become still newer, it does so.

[most fallen]

Respected devotees, pamho.

 

I am no great scholar, and my understanding of this debate comes down simply to the following verses spoken by The Lord Himself.

 

BG As it is: 15.16

 

dväv imau purusau loke

ksaras cäksara eva ca

ksarah sarväni bhütäni

küta-stho ’ksara ucyate

 

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible.

 

BG As it is:8.21

 

avyakto ’ksara ity uktas

tam ähuh paramäm gatim

yam präpya na nivartante

tad dhäma paramam mama

 

That which the Vedäntists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns—that is My supreme abode.

 

In my innocence, I once asked my Bhagavad Gita teacher a question regarding the infallible nature of the jivas in the spiritual world. He told me we became envious of Krsna and thus ended up here. Last time I checked, envy was definitely a fallible quality to which all jivas in the material world are prone.

 

I don't know about my teacher, but I'm going with Krsna on this one.

[gauragopala dasa]

Srila Prabhupada ‘personally’ told me (Gauragopala dasa) in the Sydney Temple room in February 1973 (while I was cleaning) that the body I now have is not my real body and that my real body is in Vaikuntha “You just have to realize it” he added “It is there right now” he further explained. Being very young I did not fully appreciate what he was saying

Some devotees once said in Mayapur in 1976 that it is too difficult to understand how we originally feel down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed as Prabhupada had previously told his Australian devotees in 1972 however on this occasion he says the opposite and tells the devotees they should try to understand.

We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand.

We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire.

Here is Srila Prabhupada's response to those who believe it is too difficult to understand we ALL came down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti

‘sadhya’ kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

Srila Prabhupada - "Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual (the eternal present) reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE however, don’t delude yourself, those dreams are very real but temporary, so factually we do fall down, we do experience the material world as real and the fact is, whether we like it or not, yes, we are in the material world because the awareness of Goloka and our svarupa body is covered by the reality we have created in the material world, it’s very real and only called an illusion because it is temporary, it fades, we see old age disease and death – even that’s experienced as real, even though temporary. There is a fine line between reality and illusion, one is imperishable and the other is perishable – explained in a nutshell!

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna.

We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s’akti (jiva tattva) IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy (tatastha s’akti) , jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation

The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serve the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires.

Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

[gauragopala dasa]

 

 

We have all come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada explains our eternal constitutional position - "We believe there is a Personality of Godhead and also that we are persons. We want all our troublesome situations removed and wish to reach a position where we can move freely and have all our needs satisfied. This has resulted in our turning towards that Supreme Absolute Personality.

In the Supreme Lord we find three features - He is ever existing, full of knowledge and the source of unending happiness. In Him there is no inadequacy, no discrepancy, no defect, no influence of time, nor any ignorance.

Because He is an "emporium" of all bliss and all knowledge, we should not seek after anything for our worldly purposes, leaving Him aside. We are His servants. He is the Lord. Nevertheless He need not give us anything. We are simply meant to serve Him and eternal peace comes from our eagerness in His service.

God has got spiritual eyes, spiritual ears, spiritual tongue, spiritual nose, spiritual skin and a spiritual mind: nothing material like us. Our senses are made of material elements, but there are no material elements in Him.

Although He can choose to delegate power to certain infinitesimal souls and thereby enable them to transact affairs with Him, ordinarily we are placed in a region where all sorts of imperfection and undesirables are prominent.

From this bitter experience, we should recognize the need to devise some means to get free from unpleasant situations and become prepared for the stage wherefrom we can realize the nature of our own true selves". Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada -9th of January 1926

 

 

 

Try to understand what Srila Prabhupada is also telling us.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In an Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever (conditioned as nitya-baddha in the material world)"(Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (meaning in our original and eternal state, we are all nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual but is sometimes overcrowded with cloud (known as the mahat-tattva or material creation that is in one corner of the Spiritual Sky), this is Maya (The cloud is created by Maha-Vishnu and His Wife Maya-Devi, through her powerful s'akti, controls all the bodily vessels occupied by the visiting DREAMING baddha-jivas)". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - "This is called Maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

ALL living entities were created as sat, cit, ananda in the form of eternal vigraha in the beginning (which paradoxically was beginingless).

In this way, the original residence of all living entities (marginal beings) is their original home Goloka-Vrndavana or Krsnaloka, which is the imperishable Kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The paradox here is no one never really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the 'eternal present'

The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they actually believe they are in the material world because not only do they have no memory of their 'eternal svarupa' body, but also they have consciously separated themselves from the eternal present’ where their real eternal bodily self resides.

The full potential and original feature of all living entities is a two arm human looking form

Srila Prabhupada - "It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krishna because he is the marginal energy of Krishna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krishna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

However, all of Krishna's marginal 'sparks' and so called 'atoms (souls) in the effulgence have the same ORIGINAL bodily features like Krishna - sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. The full potential and original feature of all living entities is a two arm human looking form,

Yasomatinandana: Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?

Madhudvisa: The question is that whether the eternal form of the spirit soul is a human form or is it.

Prabhupada: Yes, human form. God is also human form. "Man is made after the shape of God." I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krishna, two hands, two legs.

Hari-sauri: How do we understand, then, that there are peacocks and flowers and trees in the spiritual world? Are these not eternal forms?

Prabhupada [describing material form first]: Yes. They are more covered. Just like if you cover your body with blanket, the hands and legs are invisible. But you are not the blanket. So the trees and plants, they are more covered. They are not in full manifestation. The human form is the full manifestation of the soul.

Hari-sauri: They are covered in the spiritual world?

Madhudvisa: He is asking if they were actually covered in the spiritual world as well.

Prabhupada: Not in the spiritual world. There that is voluntary. Some devotee wants to serve Krishna as flower; they become flower there. If I want that "As a flower I shall lie down at the lotus feet of Krishna," he becomes flower, voluntarily.

Prabhupada: And he can change his, from flower to human body. That is spiritual life. There is no restriction. If some devotee wants to serve Krishna as cow, he serves Krishna as cow, as calf, as flower, as plant, as water, as ground, field, or as father, as mother, as friend, as beloved, anything.

It is inconceivable, yet a fact. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 - Melbourne, May 20, 1975

Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [bg. 4.11]. That is Krsna's all-powerfulness, spiritual life."

Hari Sauri dasa – “The fact is that spiritual form is inconceivable to our present senses. In the material world we try to measure things. But to measure anything, there has to be a reference point and our own bodies are the reference we use to understand the rest of the world around us.

Thus our sense of existence is limited to the actions and existence of our own bodies. One devotee has given some examples of drinking or jumping in water or sitting on a chair to explain your experience of past, present and future. Once an action is completed, it is gone, it is in the past.

As for the future, it is not manifest to us.

We do not know what will come next. We thus have a sense of separation from the action and the object, both in the past and the future. But in the spiritual world Krishna is the object and all action is for pleasing Him. There is never any separation from Krishna.

Krishna continuously dominates the consciousness of every living being and action is the eternal flow of service to Krishna. It never stops yet it takes on unlimited variety of performance”. End of quote

The jiva tattva's take shelter under hladhini Shakti or the mercy of Radharani, they can never become hladhini Shakti because no jiva tattva can become Vishnu tattva - taking shelter, yes, become hladhini Shakti is not possible.

Although obviously some Gopis are Vishnu tattva while others are jiva tattva - there is no third category of souls

Srila Prabhupada explains this very clearly - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

In Prabhupada’s 1969 lecture on Radhastami, which he gave in London, he said, “Radharani is the pleasure potency, hladhini Shakti.”

The living entities ARE the marginal energy or tatastha sakti that is not some place or region in the universe as some suggest, but is what we are, there is no something else because there are only two types of living entities – Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva

The marginal living entity, jiva-tattva or other words that simple mean jiva tattva, like tatastha sakti, is a bodily form in their original full constitutional foundation and potential when they realize their true identity of who they really are and have always been, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position.

So marginal, jiva tattva and tatastha simply means the ability to choose the land and the ocean or Goloka and the mahat-tattva. The marginal is therefore known as "tatastha sakti"

NOTE, THERE ARE 170 DIFFERENT ‘JIVA’ names that all mean jiva-tattva in different spiritual and material pastimes

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore, two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). Letter Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-Maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- Maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

Srila Prabhupada never used the word ‘tatastha sakti much in his books, he preferred to use the word ‘marginal’ living entity

Srila Prabhupada "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada - "You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - "Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna". Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami

Actually you are a pure devotee but you have forgotten that long, long, long ago, we have allowed ourselves to be covered by the cloud of selfish desires that blocks out our memory of who we really are.

Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us.

Srila Prabhupada- "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In an Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971.

Srila Prabhupada- "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka or Vaikuntha or even both), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

[gauragopala dasa]

 

Try to understand that the jiva is marginal energy only when he is overwhelmed by ignorance.

 

There is NO marginal energy in the spiritual world which is all internal energy.

 

Absolute nonsense!! You not understanding, ring your nearest temple iskcon or gaudiya math and learn the truth that marginal means jiva-tattva in Vaikuntha or the material world

[Beggar]

 

Absolute nonsense!! You not understanding, ring your nearest temple iskcon or gaudiya math and learn the truth that marginal means jiva-tattva in Vaikuntha or the material world

In your paradigm you must ignore things that are right in front of your face like this quote from TLC. Who do you think wrote TLC? Here is the 'smoking gun', what more evidence do you need? But you act as if no evidences from Srila Prabhupada's books are given. If you can't deal with this quote from TLC and see that it calls into question what you are writing then it goes far beyond the idea of nonsense and your very sanity must be questioned.

 

 

TLC ch.31 (previously quoted by Sonic Yogi)

Kṛṣṇa has immense energetic expansions. Three energies are predominant: the internal energy, external energy and marginal energy. This is confirmed in the Sixth Chapter of Viṣṇu Purāṇa where it is said that Viṣṇu has one energy, which is called spiritual energy, and it is manifested in three ways. When spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance, it is called marginal energy. As far as spiritual energy itself is concerned, it is exhibited in three forms because Kṛṣṇa is a combination of eternity, bliss and knowledge. As far as His bliss is concerned, His spiritual energy is manifested as the pleasure giving potency. His eternity is manifested as energy, and His knowledge is manifested as spiritual perfection. As confirmed in Viṣṇu Purāṇa (1.12.69): "The pleasure potency of Kṛṣṇa gives Kṛṣṇa transcendental pleasure and bliss." Thus when Kṛṣṇa wants to enjoy pleasure, He exhibits His own spiritual potency known as hlādinī.

[Sonic Yogi]

CC Adi 2.96 purport

 

 

 

The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions.

 

Says here that there are no conditions of external or marginal potencies. In the internal potencies there is no such condition.

 

The entire spiritual world is manifested by the internal potencies of the Lord.

Samvit - Sandhini - Hladini

 

No marginal stuff there in Goloka.

[gauragopala dasa]

Srila Prabhupada – “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

 

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the impersonal Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous.

 

Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the (marginal) living entities live together very peacefully” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

Srila Prabhupada - "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul.

 

It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

Srila Prabhupada - "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy."

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

Srila Prabhupada - "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life.

 

By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death.

 

The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”.

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned.

 

The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease".

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health."

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[gauragopala dasa]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja - ' A question arises: if all souls are eternal servants of Sri Krsna, when did they become adverse (bahirmukha) to Him? When did they turn away from Him? Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami has explained this by quoting the version of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu: "Krsna bhuli' sei jiva."

 

Who is the jiva referred to in this verse? He is the eternal servant of Sri Krsna, Krsna's marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). This should be remembered always; the jiva is not a direct manifestation of Sri Krsna's internal potency.

 

The living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna, because he is the marginal energy of Krsna - a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or spark of fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy."

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained, "Jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya dasa." By spiritual constitution, all those who have life - including human beings, birds, animals, trees and creepers, and even very small worms and insects - are eternal servants of Lord Krsna. There is no doubt of this, and this also applies to us Krsnera tatastha sakti - all souls are transformations of the Lord's marginal potency (tatastha-sakti)

[gauragopala dasa]

Srila Prabhupada - "The original energy of the Supreme Lord is spiritual and nondifferent from the Supreme Absolute Personality of Godhead. The living entity is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord, and the material energy is called the inferior energy. Due to his material inebriety, the living entity in the marginal position becomes entangled with the inferior energy, matter. At such a time he forgets his spiritual significance, identifies himself with material energy and thereby becomes subjected to the threefold miseries. Only when he is free from such material contamination can he be situated in his proper position".Chapter 25: Personal and Impersonal Realization Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

[gauragopala dasa]

Srila Prabhupada - "According to Vedic instructions, one should understand the constitutional position of the living entity, the position of the Lord, and the position of material energy in their interrelation. First of all, one should try to understand the constitutional position of the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead. That Supreme Lord has an eternal, cognizant, blissful body, and His spiritual energy is distributed as eternity, knowledge and bliss. Chapter 25: Personal and Impersonal Realization Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya<!-- END TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit -->

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In His blissful identity can be found His pleasure potency, and in His eternal identity He can be seen as the cause of everything. In His cognizant identity, He is the supreme knowledge. Indeed, the word kṛṣṇa indicates that supreme knowledge. In other words, the Supreme Personality, Kṛṣṇa, is the reservoir of all knowledge, pleasure and eternity. The supreme knowledge of Kṛṣṇa is exhibited in three different energies — internal, marginal and external. Chapter 25: Personal and Impersonal Realization Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

Srila Prabhupada - "By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.Chapter 25: Personal and Impersonal Realization Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya<!-- END TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit -->

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned soul is the marginal potency overpowered by the external potency. However, when the marginal potency comes under the jurisdiction of the spiritual potency, it becomes eligible for love of Godhead. The Supreme Lord enjoys six kinds of opulences, and no one can establish that He is formless or that He is without energy. If someone claims so, his contention is completely opposed to the Vedic instructions. Actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of ali energies. It is only the living entity, who is an infinitesimal part and parcel of Him, who is overpowered by the material energy.Chapter 25: Personal and Impersonal Realization Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

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[gauragopala dasa]

Srila Prabhupada - "Three energies are predominant: the internal energy, external energy and marginal energy. This is confirmed in the Sixth Chapter of Vishnu Purana where it is said that Vishnu has one energy, which is called spiritual energy Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

Srila Prabhupada - "It is manifested in three ways. When spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance, it is called marginal energy. As far as spiritual energy itself is concerned, it is exhibited in three forms because Krishna is a combination of eternity, bliss and knowledge. Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

Srila Prabhupada - "As far as His bliss is concerned, His spiritual energy is manifested as the pleasure giving potency. His eternity is manifested as energy, and His knowledge is manifested as spiritual perfection. As confirmed in Vishnu Purana (1.12.69): Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

Srila Prabhupada - ""The pleasure potency of Krishna gives Krishna transcendental pleasure and bliss." Thus when Krishna wants to enjoy pleasure, He exhibits His own spiritual potency known as hladini. Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In His spiritual form, Krishna enjoys His spiritual energy, and that is the sum and substance of the Radha-Krishna pastimes. These pastimes can only be understood by elevated devotees Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

[gauragopala dasa]

The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

"The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul. It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

[gauragopala dasa]

<TABLE class=tborder id=post1071478 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_1071478 style="BORDER-TOP: #cfcfcf 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #cfcfcf 1px solid">In simple English we are marginal that can choose to serve Krishna's super energy or be covered by his inferior energy

 

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis, Swami’s Guru’s and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

<FONT size=3>The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

It is in this way that this Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not and can never represent the full potential or Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of tatastha s’akti (the marginal living entity) because ones genuine self is eternally established in the endless ‘presents’ of Goloka and Vaikuntha that is beyond the influence of mundane time and space. The jiva-tatasthas souls that have projected themselves into the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are for that reason in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness unaware of their perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it is only the lower non <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious condition of the jiva tatastha that has merged into a individual collective called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence and imagination for the jiva tatastha.

"Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

 

 

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[gauragopala dasa]

 

Originally posted by ghari - From every reference I saw, the marginal energy was never considered a place or even a temporary condition. It seems it is the jiva, established as independent entities by the creation of free will (marginality). The quotes are all consistent:

 

Madhya 8.151 - kRSNera ananta-zakti, tAte tina----pradhAna

‘cic-chakti', ‘mAyA-zakti', ‘jIva-zakti'-nAma

 

kRSNera--of Lord KRSNa; ananta-zakti--unlimited potencies; tAte--in that; tina--three; pradhAna--chief; cit-zakti--spiritual potency; mAyA-zakti--material potency; jIva-zakti--marginal potency, or living entities; nAma--named.

 

TRANSLATION

"KRSNa has unlimited potencies, which can be divided into three main parts. These are the spiritual potency, the material potency and the marginal potency, which is known as the living entities.

 

 

SB 2.10.3p - The parts and parcels of the internal potency which react in contact with the external potency are called the marginal potency, or the living entities.

 

Adi 2.103 - "The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions.

 

Adi 5.45 - There is one marginal potency, known as the jIva. MahA-saGkarSaNa is the shelter of all jIvas.

 

Madhya 6.163 - "In the Bhagavad-gItA the living entity is established as the marginal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yet you say that the living entity is completely different from the Lord.

 

SB 10.87.20p - According to SrI NArada PaJcarAtra,

 

yat taTa-sthaM tu cid-rUpaM

sva-saMvedyAd vinirgatam

raJjitaM guNa-rAgeNa

sa jIva iti kathyate

 

"The marginal potency, who is spiritual by nature, who emanates from the self-cognizant saMvit energy, and who becomes tainted by his attachment to the modes of material nature, is called the jIva.''

 

Although the jIva soul is also an expansion of Lord KRSNa, he is distinguished from KRSNa's independent ViSNu expansions by his constitutional position on the margin between spirit and matter. As the MahAvarAha PurANa explains,

 

svAMzaz cAtha vibhinnAMza

iti dvidhA za iSyate

aMzino yat tu sAmarthyaM

yat-svarUpaM yathA sthitiH

 

tad eva nANu-mAtro 'pi

bhedaM svAMzAMzinoH kvacit

vibhinnAMzo 'lpa-zaktiH syAt

kiJcit sAmarthya-mAtra-yuk

 

"The Supreme Lord is known in two ways: in terms of His plenary expansions and His separated expansions. Between the plenary expansions and Their source of expansion there is never any essential difference in terms of either Their capabilities, forms or situations. The separated expansions, on the other hand, possess only minute potency, being endowed only to a small extent with the Lord's powers."

 

The conditioned soul in this world appears as if covered by matter, internally as well as externally. Externally, gross matter surrounds him in the forms of his body and environment, while internally desire and aversion impinge upon his consciousness. But from the transcendental perspective of realized sages, both kinds of material covering are insubstantial. By logically eliminating all material identities, which are misconceptions based on the soul's gross and subtle coverings, a thoughtful person can determine that the soul is nothing material. Rather, he is a pure spark of divine spirit, a servant of the Supreme Godhead. Understanding this, one should worship the Supreme Lord's lotus feet; such worship is the fully bloomed flower of the tree of Vedic rituals. One's realization of the splendor of the Lord's lotus feet, gradually nourished by the offering of Vedic sacrifices, automatically bears the fruits of liberation from material existence and irrevocable faith in the Lord's mercy. One can accomplish all this while still living in the material world. As Lord KRSNa states in the GopAla-tApanI UpaniSad (Uttara 47),

 

mathurA-maNDale yas tu

jambUdvIpe sthito 'tha vA

yo 'rcayet pratimAM prati

sa me priyataro bhuvi

 

"One who worships Me in My Deity form while living in the district of MathurA or, indeed, anywhere in JambUdvIpa, becomes most dear to Me in this world."

 

SrIla SrIdhara SvAmI prays,

tvad-aMzasya mamezAna

tvan-mAyA-kRta-bandhanam

tvad-aGghri-sevAm Adizya

parAnanda nivartaya

 

"My Lord, please free me, Your partial expansion, from the bondage created by Your MAyA. Please do this, O abode of supreme bliss, by directing me to the service of Your feet."

 

SB 7.3.34 - Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme, who in his unlimited, unmanifested form has expanded the cosmic manifestation, the form of the totality of the universe. He possesses external and internal energies and the mixed energy called the marginal potency, which consists of all the living entities.

PURPORT

The Lord is endowed with unlimited potencies (parAsya zaktir vividhaiva zrUyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]), which are summarized as three, namely external, internal and marginal. The external potency manifests this material world, the internal potency manifests the spiritual world, and the marginal potency manifests the living entities, who are mixtures of internal and external. The living entity, being part and parcel of Parabrahman, is actually internal potency, but because of being in contact with the material energy, he is an emanation of material and spiritual energies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is above the material energy and is engaged in spiritual pastimes. The material energy is only an external manifestation of His pastimes.

 

BG 9.13p - Being marginal potency, as soon as the living entity is freed from the control of material nature, he is put under the guidance of the spiritual nature.

 

BG 18.78p - Because the living entities are the marginal energy of KRSNa, they have a tendency to be in contact either with the material energy or with the spiritual energy. In other words, the living entity is situated between the two energies of the Lord, and because he belongs to the superior energy of the Lord, he has a particle of independence. By proper use of that independence he comes under the direct order of KRSNa. Thus he attains his normal condition in the pleasure-giving potency.

 

SB 1.1.31p - One should know, therefore, that the Lord is never on the level of the living beings, who are but expansions of His marginal potency, and one should never equalize the potent and the potency, although there is very little difference of quality between the potent and the potency.

 

SB 1.1.39p - When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord. Such devotees of the Lord are all liberated souls, perfect representations of the marginal or internal potency in complete negation of the influence of the external potency.

 

SB 1.13.48p - The Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead is one without a second, but He manifests Himself by different energies because He is by nature blissful. The living beings are also manifestations of His marginal energy, qualitatively one with the Lord, and there are innumerable living beings both within and without the external and internal energies of the Lord. Since the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal energy, the living beings within that internal potency are qualitatively one with the Lord without contamination from the external potency. Although qualitatively one with the Lord, the living being, due to contamination of the material world, is pervertedly manifested, and therefore he experiences so-called happiness and distress in the material world.

 

SB 1.14.32p - The PANDavas are also liberated souls who descended along with Lord KRSNa to serve Him in His transcendental pastimes on this earth. As stated in the Bhagavad-gItA (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being taTasthA zakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the viSNu-tattva and jIva-tattva. The jIva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times. And to the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. The liberated souls never, therefore, think themselves as free as the Lord or as powerful as the Lord, but they always seek the protection of the Lord in all circumstances, both in the material world and in the spiritual world. This dependence of the liberated soul is constitutional, for the liberated souls are like sparks of a fire that are able to exhibit the glow of fire along with the fire and not independently. Independently the glow of the sparks is extinguished, although the quality of fire or the glowing is there. Thus those who give up the protection of the Lord and become so-called lords themselves, out of spiritual ignorance, come back again to this material world, even after prolonged tapasya of the severest type. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.

 

SB 2.2.14p - The spiritual world is the manifestation of His internal potency, and the material world is the manifestation of His external potency. The living entities are also His marginal potency, and by their own choice they can live in either the transcendental or material worlds. The material world is not a fit place for living entities because they are spiritually one with the Lord and in the material world the living entities become conditioned by the laws of the material world.

 

SB 2.4.7p - So all living entities, both in the conditioned state and in the liberated state, are maintained by the Almighty Supreme Lord. Such maintenance is effected by the Lord through His different expansions of Self and three principal energies, namely the internal, external and marginal energies. The living entities are His marginal energies, and some of them, in the confidence of the Lord, are entrusted with the work of creation also, as are BrahmA, MarIci, etc., and the acts of creation are inspired by the Lord unto them (tene brahma hRdA). The external energy (mAyA) is also impregnated with the jIvas, or conditioned souls. The unconditioned marginal potency acts in the spiritual kingdom, and the Lord, by His different plenary expansions, maintains them in different transcendental relations displayed in the spiritual sky. So the one Supreme Personality of Godhead manifests Himself in many (bahu syAm), and thus all diversities are in Him, and He is in all diversities, although He is nevertheless different from all of them. That is the inconceivable mystic power of the Lord, and as such everything is simultaneously one with and different from Him by His inconceivable potencies (acintya-bhedAbheda-tattva).

 

SB 2.5.14p - The living entity is known as the marginal potency of the Lord. But in all circumstances, neither the material ingredients nor the spiritual parts and parcels are independent of the Personality of Godhead VAsudeva, for all things, whether products of the external, internal or marginal potencies of the Lord, are simply displays of the same effulgence of the Lord, just as light, heat and smoke are displays of fire. None of them are separate from the fire--all of them combine together to be called fire; similarly, all phenomenal manifestations, as well as the effulgence of the body of VAsudeva, are His impersonal features, whereas He eternally exists in His transcendental form called sac-cid-Ananda-vigrahaH [bs. 5.1], distinct from all conceptions of the material ingredients mentioned above.

 

SB 2.5.19 - These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge and activities, put the eternally transcendental living entity under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities.

PURPORT

Because they are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant. Such is the wonderful action of mAyA, or external energy manifested as if materially produced. By the covering power of the material energy, the material scientist cannot look beyond the material causes, but factually, behind the material manifestations, there are adhibhUta, adhyAtma and adhidaiva actions, which the conditioned soul in the mode of ignorance cannot see.

The adhibhUta manifestation entails repetitions of births and deaths with old age and diseases, the adhyAtma manifestation conditions the spirit soul, and the adhidaiva manifestation is the controlling system. These are the material manifestations of cause and effect and the sense of responsibility of the conditioned actors. They are, after all, manifestations of the conditioned state, and the human being's freedom from such a conditioned state is the highest perfectional attainment.

 

SB 2.5.25 - From the darkness of false ego, the first of the five elements, namely the sky, is generated. Its subtle form is the quality of sound, exactly as the seer is in relationship with the seen.

PURPORT

The five elements, namely sky, air, fire, water and earth, are all but different qualities of the darkness of false ego. This means that the false ego in the sum total form of mahat-tattva is generated from the marginal potency of the Lord, and due to this false ego of lording it over the material creation, ingredients are generated for the false enjoyment of the living being. The living being is practically the dominating factor over the material elements as the enjoyer, though the background is the Supreme Lord. Factually, save and except the Lord, no one can be called the enjoyer, but the living entity falsely desires to become the enjoyer. This is the origin of false ego. When the bewildered living being desires this, the shadow elements are generated by the will of the Lord, and the living entities are allowed to run after them as after a phantasmagoria.

 

SB 3.27.17 - SrI DevahUti inquired: My dear brAhmaNa, does material nature ever give release to the spirit soul? Since one is attracted to the other eternally, how is their separation possible?

PURPORT

DevahUti, the mother of Kapiladeva, here makes her first inquiry. Although one may understand that spirit soul and matter are different, their actual separation is not possible, either by philosophical speculation or by proper understanding. The spirit soul is the marginal potency of the Supreme Lord, and matter is the external potency of the Lord. The two eternal potencies have somehow or other been combined, and since it is so difficult to separate one from the other, how is it possible for the individual soul to become liberated? By practical experience one can see that when the soul is separated from the body, the body has no real existence, and when the body is separated from the soul one cannot perceive the existence of the soul. As long as the soul and the body are combined, we can understand that there is life. But when they are separated, there is no manifested existence of the body or the soul. This question asked by DevahUti of Kapiladeva is more or less impelled by the philosophy of voidism. The voidists say that consciousness is a product of a combination of matter and that as soon as the consciousness is gone, the material combination dissolves, and therefore there is ultimately nothing but voidness. This absence of consciousness is called nirvANa in MAyAvAda philosophy.

 

SB 4.28.53p - "O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate." This is an explanation of how the living entity falls down into this material world. In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate. The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the VarAha PurANa, He expands Himself in viSNu-tattva (the svAMza expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnAMza, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnAMza expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.

 

SB 4.31.13p - The living entity is the marginal potency of the Supreme Lord, although there is factually no difference between the energy and the energetic.

 

 

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[Sonic Yogi]

 

Devotee: Does a jiva attain the position of Siva?

 

 

 

Srila Guru Maharaj: Yes, he can be 'Siva,' when he is out of the clutches of Maya; and the Vaikuntha devotee is more than Siva. When a spiritual molecule is free from the clutches of the exploitation tendency, he is known as 'Siva.' Pasa-baddho bhavej jivah pasa-muktah sadasivah: When he is entangled, he is ‘jiva,’ and when he is free, he is 'Siva' (Sivo 'ham). But Krsna said, when giving His blessings to Uddhava (Bha: 11.14.15):

 

na tatha me priyatama atmayonir na sankarah

na ca sankarsano na srir naivatma ca yatha bhavan

"Neither Brahma nor Siva are as dear to Me as you; My elder brother Sankarsana is not as dear to Me as you, nor even Laksmi Devi. Even My own Self is not as dear to Me as you."

Such is the position of a devotee, a bhakta. He's above Brahma, he's above Siva, he's above Sankarsana, he's above Laksmi - he's above Krsna Himself, by the free, sweet will of Krsna. Aham bhakta-paradhinah. This is running in the current of love, not of justice: through affection.

 

 

 

So, according to Srila Sridhar Maharaja "jiva" specifically refers to the "entangled" soul.

When the jiva becomes liberated he becomes Siva.

Beyond that he can become bhakta tattva and much more than an entangled jiva.

 

The term jiva specifically denotes an entangled entity overcome by illusion.

 

bhakta-tattva — in the category of devotees

 

Pure devotees are bhakta-tattva, not jiva tattva.

[Beggar]

In Gaudiya Vaisnavism the words of the acaryas or saints is considered as good as Puranic sastra itself. Consequently unlike other traditions, especially in the West, there is no real distinction between the scripture itself and the commentaries of the saintly acaryas. Sometimes these acaryas have different opinion on a specific subject. Sometimes they are giving a different angle of vision. And sometimes they are taking the liberty of using the same terminology in different ways. Thus some acaryas say that the word 'jiva' refers to conditioned souls only and some say that it refers to the soul in the liberated state also. Some commentators say that the jiva is tatastha only in the conditioned state and some say that they are tatastha in also the liberated state. Sometimes Srila Prabhupada uses the apparently contradictory thoughts of these commentators as if he is simply presenting them without giving an opinion. Sometimes the saintly commentators even use different defintions for the same words, like 'tatastha' and 'jiva'. Sometimes the same commentator uses different definitions in separate parts of their own work or even give concepts that contradict what they themselves have already given. This seems so obvious. Yet still especially on this forum and on these related topics, most posters act as if this never happens and that there is only one opinion and one definition that is correct. When I bring this up the waring parties call me a "fence sitter". This kind of thinking ultimately culminates in GBC proclamations on the Truth and such things as Rtvik ideas of a 'final order'. The modern mentality seems to desire to take Gaudiya Vaisnavism into the same realms as the Catholic Church was in the Middle Ages. It makes one think that such institutions and institutional thinking is draging us into a new 'dark age'.

[andy108]

Well Beggar, it is too bad you can't apply your broadness of vision to accept the necessity Srila Bhaktisiddhanta felt when initiating an institutional program, despite his famous speech on what such will inevitably result in?

 

Of course if you were to do this, you would have to get off the fence, and be favorable to every institutional order that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami gave, including for ritvik initiations in his Iskcon institution.

 

Of course such a move will leave you little latitude to remain artificially "above the fray", but to simply stand on the madhyama platform firmly, extending a hand to the neophytes who need the institution that those who were certainly more advanced and devoted to the Lord than you saw the absolute necessity of implementing at all risk, and spilling of gallons of their own blood sweat and tears.