Who is a brahmana?

[raghu]

 

You and raghu both seem to be very judgmental and totally overlooking all the service, devotion and love that persons like Kirtanananda Swami dedicated to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Guilty as charged. I guess I do tend to be very judgemental about some minor things.

 

Like when a guru embezzles money. Or smuggles drugs. Or makes a homosexual advance on a disciple. Or abuses a child.

 

In such times of doubt, I sometimes dare to think, "perhaps this person is not a brahmin...."

 

But then Theist and Sonic Yogi come and smack me down. They remind me that as a soul born in an Indian and brahmin body, I am by the very fact, guilty of all manner of social evils in India. Consequently I cannot possibly have any reasonable concerns or doubts.

 

And then I come to my senses and feel nothing but love again, ready once again to shut up and do as I am told.

[raghu]

Thank you for finally attempting to answer my very simple questions. I must say, getting answer from you is harder than pulling teeth. And I was so impressed that you didn't even insult me this time. Now in regards to your specific answers:

 

 

1) The disciples of Prabhupada who are currently gurus - are they all brahmins? Yes or no?

 

(NO, they are more than a brahmana)

 

 

This is a troubling answer. The Vedas only recognize four varnas - brahmana, kshatriya, vaishya, and shudra. Saying that someone is "more than a brahmana" begs the question - what are they? Being a Vaishnava does not make you "more" than anything - you still belong to a varna when you live in the material world.

 

One can be a shudra, vaishya, or kshatriya and still be a Vaishnava. You agree?

 

If any of the current disciple-gurus falls down (statistically, a likely scenario), will the fallen still be "more than a brahmana?"

 

 

2) The disciples of Prabhupada who were formerly gurus but then fell down - were they brahmins? Yes or No?

 

(No, they are devotees and more than a brahmana)

 

 

So the gurus who molested disciples, embezzled money, ran off with female disciples... they are "more than a brahmana?" Ok....

 

 

3) If the disciples of Prabhupada who fell down were not gurus, then why did Prabhupada initiate them as brahmins? Did he (a) do so knowing that they were not brahmins, or (b) do so because he did not know if they were brahmins or not?

 

(He did so knowing they were devotees of the Vaishnava and more than brahmanas)

 

 

Ok, now here comes the question: how does one determine who is a "devotee of the Vaishnava" and thus eligible to become a guru? Does anyone who worships Vishnu get this designation, or is there some other criterion?

 

 

4a) If the answer to question (3) is choice (a), then how do you rationalize giving initiations to a non-brahmin when you claim that one is only a brahmin based on conduct/qualification?

 

(Servants of the Pure Vaishnava are much more than a brahmana)

 

 

If someone is "more than a brahmana," then why would one initiate him as a brahmana? Does that not seem contradictory?

 

 

4b) If the answer to question (3) is choice (b), then when even Prabhupada (whom you no doubt consider the topmost guru) could mistakenly identify someone as a brahmin, then how are other gurus supposed to correctly identify brahmins prior to initiation?

 

(He followed shastric injunction and gave proper regard to the servants of the Vaishnava who are greater than brahmanas)

 

What shastric injunction allows a person to become a brahmana and a guru merely because they worship Vishnu?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

What shastric injunction allows a person to become a brahmana and a guru merely because they worship Vishnu?

 

That is not what I said Mr. Spaghetti sauce.

 

I said they worshiped the pure Vaishnava.

 

Worshiping the Vaishnava is much higher than worshiping Vishnu.

 

What????

 

You think you can worship Vishnu directly?

 

Vishnu doesn't accept your pathetic, filthy service.

 

Vishnu loves those who serve his pure devotees.

 

Those who try to worship him directly are just ignored by Vishnu.

[Justin]

I usually do not like to say 'I told you so'. But someone please objectively compare my answers to SYs. Ain't my answers a tad better?

[Beggar]

Besides Raghu's criticisms, what is he proposing?

[kaisersose]

 

Besides Raghu's criticisms, what is he proposing?

 

You did not get that yet? Amazing.

 

1) It is not possible to identify the varna of a person by observing him. Therefore, the only way to know varna is by birth - as has been followed for thousands of years. The human species has not developed new skills in the recent past for identifying varna by observation.

 

2) It is not necesssary to become a Brahmana to worship Krishna. No scripture places such a requirement.

 

Just these two points. And a smaller font will get you the answer too.

 

Cheers

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Thank you for finally attempting to answer my very simple questions. I must say, getting answer from you is harder than pulling teeth.

 

Unlike your good self, I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth.

I work a full time job.

I still have a 15 year old daughter at home that I am raising alone as I have done for the last 13 years.

 

So, excuse me if I don't have 24 hours a day to hang out on the forum answering all your trite challenges here on the forum.

 

I have a few minutes a day to waste on this forum.

 

You should feel honored that I pay any attention to you.

 

I don't pay attention to many people.

 

I just don't have time.

[Justin]

 

Besides Raghu's criticisms, what is he proposing?

He wants you to go play football.

 

Do you intend every post to propose something? Some grand proposal for building a temple or are you looking for a proposal of a $800 billion bailout plan to be drawn here. Discussion forums are simply a method of exhanging opinions. You give yours and others give theirs.

[Kyros]

 

He wants you to play football.

 

What other purpose do you think this forum serves? Do you intend every post to propose something? Some grand proposal for building a temple or are you looking for a proposal of a bailout plan to be drawn here? Discussion forums are simply a method of exhanging opinions. You give yours and others give theirs.

 

It doesn't help when your opinions are either deleted by mods, reported as a bad post by envious users, or just simply disappears into dark abyss of the Internet like one of my latest posts.

[Beggar]

 

He wants you to play football.

 

What other purpose do you think this forum serves? Do you intend every post to propose something? Some grand proposal for building a temple or are you looking for a proposal of a bailout plan to be drawn here? Discussion forums are simply a method of exhanging opinions. You give yours and others give theirs.

Just like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's conception, an acarya could come along in Gaudiya Saraswat line and say, "alright, no more brahmana threads.' Could it be? Will further changes according to time, place and circumstances take place, for sure. But clearly the motive behind the "football playing" of the Kaisers Just-in-time (Johnny-come lately,

Jimmy-Cracked Corn) and the Raghu Spaghetti man are to impune the very motives and integrity of Srila Saraswati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada. Football has its rules and you guys have crossed the lines, and committed personal fouls for which the Big Commissioner in the Sky will lay out heavy fines.

[kaisersose]

 

...you guys have crossed the lines, and committed personal fouls for which the Big Commissioner in the Sky will lay out heavy fines.

 

I have heard these empty "aparadha" threats from your colleagues for a number of years now.

 

Seriously, I cannot believe how dumb you guys are. You are incapable of even understanding a simple discussion and how to respond to facts, even when they have been laid out in the most convenient form. All you are capable of is getting enraged, taking on a bullying attitude and spouting curses and empty threats. Little wonder that the organization has folded up the way it has.

 

At the end of it all, the pity is you guys are kidding yourselves and are too dumb to realize that.

 

Good luck my friend,

[Justin]

 

Just like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's conception, an acarya could come along in Gaudiya Saraswat line and say,

Gaudiya saraswat! Where did saraswat come from? Are they undergoing a name change?

 

 

Football has its rules and you guys have crossed the lines, and committed personal fouls for which the Big Commissioner in the Sky will lay out heavy fines.

Did the commissioner tell that you personally? I still haven't paid my parking tickets. Can I use your influence to waive them?

[kaisersose]

 

I wouldn't in a million years enlighten you as to the answer to that question because...

 

...because you do not have the guts. Yes, we all know that.

 

 

And then bugger off, please.

 

Foul language from a Brahmana? That is a big no-no, a sin which requires penance. Shave your head, stand erect facing North, place a 16 oz bar of ice on your head and do not move until it all melts down, all the while repeating the following chant:

 

"I have been converted into a Brahmana and as a Brahmana, I swear to refrain from using foul language and conduct myself in a dignified manner under all circumstances".

 

Or you can accept you lack Brahmana qualities and stop imagining yourself to be one. This will let you be your real self - with unlimited, free usage of foul words, tap dancing around uncomfortable questions, and displaying pretentious scholarship on discussion forums.

 

Your pick Andy.

 

Cheers

[Beggar]

 

Gaudiya saraswat! Where did saraswat come from? Are they undergoing a name change?

You are unprepared. Do your homework and do a search on the internet.

 

 

Did the commissioner tell that you personally? I still haven't paid my parking tickets. Can I use your influence to waive them?

The Commissioner announced it at his weekly news conference this morning.

[raghu]

 

That is not what I said Mr. Spaghetti sauce.

 

I said they worshiped the pure Vaishnava.

 

ok so what shAstric injunction (as in shruti, smRti, etc) allows one to become a brAhmana and a guru by worship of a pure Vaishnava?

[sambya]

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by raghu

1) The disciples of Prabhupada who are currently gurus - are they all brahmins? Yes or no?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> There is a new varna in town. "Vaishnavas". They are vaishnavas. A vaishnava is higher than a brahamana.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

new varna ?!! which vedic text says that ?

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by raghu

2) The disciples of Prabhupada who were formerly gurus but then fell down - were they brahmins? Yes or No?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> They were not vaishnavas.

 

and yet gurus .........

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by raghu

3) If the disciples of Prabhupada who fell down were not gurus, then why did Prabhupada initiate them as brahmins? Did he (a) do so knowing that they were not brahmins, or (b) do so because he did not know if they were brahmins or not?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Krsna told him to initiate them. He does everything as per Krsna's order. It wasn't Prabhupada's fault.

 

 

does that suggest that krishna never understood that they are not yet qualified to become gurus or brahmana and consequently gave a wrong instruction !!!!!???

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by raghu

4a) If the answer to question (3) is choice (a), then how do you rationalize giving initiations to a non-brahmin when you claim that one is only a brahmin based on conduct/qualification?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Did I mention before that the initiation was given to vaishnavas? No. Okay. It was right at the time because they were behaving as vaishnavas. Now times have changed and they changed. This is a slight digression. But this is done because it is the right thing to do.

</td></tr></tbody></table> so behaving ( or pretending )as vaishnavas is the thing thats needed . wow !!! never thought realization's so easy................!!!!

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Since I did not get any answers, and since the only responses were once again evasive, let me again put forth the questions. I really do not understand what is so childish about asking these questions. Yes, I know, I'm a new kid, i'm evil, i'm a bigot, etc. But please, can we have a focused discussion?

 

1) The disciples of Prabhupada who are currently gurus - are they all brahmins? Yes or no?

 

2) The disciples of Prabhupada who were formerly gurus but then fell down - were they brahmins? Yes or No?

 

3) If the disciples of Prabhupada who fell down were not gurus, then why did Prabhupada initiate them as brahmins? Did he (a) do so knowing that they were not brahmins, or (b) do so because he did not know if they were brahmins or not?

 

4a) If the answer to question (3) is choice (a), then how do you rationalize giving initiations to a non-brahmin when you claim that one is only a brahmin based on conduct/qualification?

 

4b) If the answer to question (3) is choice (b), then when even Prabhupada (whom you no doubt consider the topmost guru) could mistakenly identify someone as a brahmin, then how are other gurus supposed to correctly identify brahmins prior to initiation?

 

 

1) I would venture to guess that 'no' they are not brahmanas.

 

2) Could have been at one time, but not after a fall. That would just cheapen the varna. Oh and they were never gurus in a bonfided ISKCON. Prabhupada is the only guru for ISKCON.

 

3) Guru and brahman are two different things, mutually exclusive. One does not depend on the other. Second part will have to be answered by Prabhupada. I do not claim to know His mind at the time. But as a father, I would say that the answer is as individual as the people involved. And the over all mission of spreading KC. Things are much bigger than just one generation. The result of an action might take a hundred yrs to manifest.

 

4a) What? You say they were non. How about at the time of initiation they were following purly, thereby qualified.

 

4b) Again, What? No you have your speculation on back words. Srila Prabhupada made the best use of a bad bargan, he used as he saw fit those that came to him. Do you think that Prabhupada cherry picked us from the lot? Duh, you said yourself we are just demons/raksasas. So at the time of concideration, they were following the rule and regulations. Fell later. Other gurus do not concern us.

 

Be carful we bite!

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[bhaktatraveler]

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

new varna ?!! which vedic text says that ?

 

 

and yet gurus .........

 

 

does that suggest that krishna never understood that they are not yet qualified to become gurus or brahmana and consequently gave a wrong instruction !!!!!???

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>so behaving ( or pretending )as vaishnavas is the thing thats needed . wow !!! never thought realization's so easy................!!!!

 

Nothing new here, Vaisnava has always been above the varnas, including brahmana. Thats not us, we are 'aspireing' not yet pure. But the pure Vaisnava is beyond reproach.

 

There in lays the rub. They are not gurus. So your contention is moot.

 

All speculation as to the intimate conclutions of Krsna's desires.

 

No! pretents is just a shadow. Be real! pretents will not take us back to lila.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[andhra]

Among Vaishnavas caste should be ignored

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Among Vaishnavas caste should be ignored

 

This is not the full conclusion of Srila Prabhupada, so I will please take to Him only and not you, do not mind it.

 

We still need to concider that an actual pure devotee is rare, the term 'Vaisnava' is cheaply bantered about as if it applies to all of us as equal to the uttama devotee. That we are madhyam and kanishta proves conditioning and motivation, not purity. So for management in society we must still divide as Prabhupada said to do. But still maintaning edicate balance treating one and all as on the at least begining stages of transendental understanding. That is for the followers of Prabhupada.

 

RCB

[raghu]

In response to:

 

Originally Posted by raghu

Since I did not get any answers, and since the only responses were once again evasive, let me again put forth the questions. I really do not understand what is so childish about asking these questions. Yes, I know, I'm a new kid, i'm evil, i'm a bigot, etc. But please, can we have a focused discussion?

 

1) The disciples of Prabhupada who are currently gurus - are they all brahmins? Yes or no?

 

2) The disciples of Prabhupada who were formerly gurus but then fell down - were they brahmins? Yes or No?

 

3) If the disciples of Prabhupada who fell down were not gurus, then why did Prabhupada initiate them as brahmins? Did he (a) do so knowing that they were not brahmins, or (b) do so because he did not know if they were brahmins or not?

 

4a) If the answer to question (3) is choice (a), then how do you rationalize giving initiations to a non-brahmin when you claim that one is only a brahmin based on conduct/qualification?

 

4b) If the answer to question (3) is choice (b), then when even Prabhupada (whom you no doubt consider the topmost guru) could mistakenly identify someone as a brahmin, then how are other gurus supposed to correctly identify brahmins prior to initiation?

 

 

 

1) I would venture to guess that 'no' they are not brahmanas.

 

If the current gurus are not brahmanas, then why are they gurus? Better to be an unqualified non-brahmin then a qualified caste-brahmin, eh?

 

 

2) Could have been at one time, but not after a fall. That would just cheapen the varna.

 

So your concept of a brahmana is that one can be a brahmana at some times and not at others. How interesting.

 

Since varnas are totally dynamic, and a person can be multiple varnas within a single lifetime, who keeps track of that all? Is there a registry somewhere? Or does everyone just make up their own decision at any given time as to what varna one belongs to?

 

 

Oh and they were never gurus in a bonfided ISKCON. Prabhupada is the only guru for ISKCON.

 

What an admission! You just insulted thousands and thousands of iskcon disciples.

 

 

3) Guru and brahman are two different things, mutually exclusive. One does not depend on the other. Second part will have to be answered by Prabhupada. I do not claim to know His mind at the time. But as a father, I would say that the answer is as individual as the people involved. And the over all mission of spreading KC. Things are much bigger than just one generation. The result of an action might take a hundred yrs to manifest.

 

So let me see I got this straight:

1) A brahmana cannot become a guru (they are "mutually exclusive")

2) I have to consult an individual no longer present on this plane of existence to find out why Prabhupada initiated unqualified people. In the meantime, I should have no doubts that his doing so was in any way improper.

3) You basically do not know what you are talking about.

 

 

4a) What? You say they were non. How about at the time of initiation they were following purly, thereby qualified.

 

So, qualification for guru-hood is also a dynamic thing? It need not be a permanent feature? I am learning something new about gaudiya vaishnavism all the time!

 

 

4b) Again, What? No you have your speculation on back words. Srila Prabhupada made the best use of a bad bargan, he used as he saw fit those that came to him. Do you think that Prabhupada cherry picked us from the lot? Duh, you said yourself we are just demons/raksasas. So at the time of concideration, they were following the rule and regulations. Fell later. Other gurus do not concern us.

 

 

So you are saying that he knowingly initiated unqualified people.

 

I am unclear on why (1) using birth to determine varna is evil, and yet (2) knowingly initiating unqualified rAkshasas as brahmanas is more sensible.

 

Of course, this might just be due to my latent envy.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

In response to:

 

Originally Posted by raghu

Since I did not get any answers, and since the only responses were once again evasive, let me again put forth the questions. I really do not understand what is so childish about asking these questions. Yes, I know, I'm a new kid, i'm evil, i'm a bigot, etc. But please, can we have a focused discussion?

 

1) The disciples of Prabhupada who are currently gurus - are they all brahmins? Yes or no?

 

2) The disciples of Prabhupada who were formerly gurus but then fell down - were they brahmins? Yes or No?

 

3) If the disciples of Prabhupada who fell down were not gurus, then why did Prabhupada initiate them as brahmins? Did he (a) do so knowing that they were not brahmins, or (b) do so because he did not know if they were brahmins or not?

 

4a) If the answer to question (3) is choice (a), then how do you rationalize giving initiations to a non-brahmin when you claim that one is only a brahmin based on conduct/qualification?

 

4b) If the answer to question (3) is choice (b), then when even Prabhupada (whom you no doubt consider the topmost guru) could mistakenly identify someone as a brahmin, then how are other gurus supposed to correctly identify brahmins prior to initiation?

 

 

 

 

If the current gurus are not brahmanas, then why are they gurus? Better to be an unqualified non-brahmin then a qualified caste-brahmin, eh?

 

 

 

So your concept of a brahmana is that one can be a brahmana at some times and not at others. How interesting.

 

Since varnas are totally dynamic, and a person can be multiple varnas within a single lifetime, who keeps track of that all? Is there a registry somewhere? Or does everyone just make up their own decision at any given time as to what varna one belongs to?

 

 

 

What an admission! You just insulted thousands and thousands of iskcon disciples.

 

 

 

So let me see I got this straight:

1) A brahmana cannot become a guru (they are "mutually exclusive")

2) I have to consult an individual no longer present on this plane of existence to find out why Prabhupada initiated unqualified people. In the meantime, I should have no doubts that his doing so was in any way improper.

3) You basically do not know what you are talking about.

 

 

 

So, qualification for guru-hood is also a dynamic thing? It need not be a permanent feature? I am learning something new about gaudiya vaishnavism all the time!

 

 

 

So you are saying that he knowingly initiated unqualified people.

 

I am unclear on why (1) using birth to determine varna is evil, and yet (2) knowingly initiating unqualified rAkshasas as brahmanas is more sensible.

 

Of course, this might just be due to my latent envy.

 

 

Yes you are envious.

 

You are saying they are guru not me.

 

One can fall from a high place. One can raise to a higher place. But no yoyoing back and forth.

 

Guna and karma can been observed. No one can just make a thing up. Ksatriya is the over seer of all varnas and asramas. But does not govern the brahmans.

 

I will insult these IS-A-CON cheaters again and again. That is MY varna's job.

 

To really address you is just a waste of time but hell I have all knight. You make so much up. Prabhupada initiated reformed people that latter fell, how you can not understand this I do not know. You bog down the converstion with so much debris it is like clogging a streams flow. You will never know anything of Prabhupada why are you here? To make a bigger ego for your self diluted mind I think.

 

RCB

[andy108]

 

Originally Posted by raghu

Since I did not get any answers, and since the only responses were once again evasive, let me again put forth the questions. I really do not understand what is so childish about asking these questions. Yes, I know, I'm a new kid, i'm evil, i'm a bigot, etc. But please, can we have a focused discussion?

Now that you asked nicely...

 

1) The disciples of Prabhupada who are currently gurus - are they all brahmins? Yes or no?

If a disciple of my Srila Prabhupada is currently a Guru, they definitely display the qualities of brahmana, regardless of what caste they were born to.

 

If you are referring to those who were disciples of His for sometime, then disobeyed his orders and claim Guru status to use and abuse others, then it is a shame that you would insult my intelligence by asking what I thought of this. Which in any even leads us to your next question..

 

2) The disciples of Prabhupada who were formerly gurus but then fell down - were they brahmins? Yes or No?

There is no such thing as a "former" Guru. A Guru is eminently qualified by his ability to divulge to another the Science behind becoming Krsna Conscious. Anyone able to do so does not lose such an ability.

 

By the way, this question demonstrates your presumption and laziness in not educating yourself, for if you had investigated before opening your mouth you would have discovered that Srila Prabhupada himself said by virtue of what a Guru is, there is no such thing as a "fallen" or "former" Guru.

 

This covers the rest of that senseless question. Next..

3) If the disciples of Prabhupada who fell down were not gurus, then why did Prabhupada initiate them as brahmins? Did he (a) do so knowing that they were not brahmins, or (b) do so because he did not know if they were brahmins or not?

The answer is C. He did so because they showed the minimum qualifications for being a Brahmana in Kali Yuga at the time, they were in the intellectual class, inquisitve and aurally receptive to Prabhupada.

 

Most of them did not even have the first of the 12 qualifications of a brahmana, truthfullness in all circumstances, but some did.

 

They approached a Gaudiya Spiritual Master and Vaisnava Bhakta (himself) submissively (at the time) and thus initiated them with mantra and brahmana thread in hopes that under his guidance they would cultivate their natural intellectual tendency into full truthfullness, knowledge of Vedas through education, pukka cleanliness, tolerance of others through coming to understand Paramatma, mental equilibrium, etc.

 

The truth is though they were fallen from the beginning, some gradually began to develop further brahminical qualities under his guidance and the shelter of the Lord's holy name.

 

Others remained intellectual with no truthfullness (Raksasa, et al.) and did the sinister deeds that Iskcon has become notorious for.

4a) If the answer to question (3) is choice (a), then how do you rationalize giving initiations to a non-brahmin when you claim that one is only a brahmin based on conduct/qualification?

Already covered, see above answer.

4b) If the answer to question (3) is choice (b), then when even Prabhupada (whom you no doubt consider the topmost guru) could mistakenly identify someone as a brahmin, then how are other gurus supposed to correctly identify brahmins prior to initiation?

You see Ragu my friend, you may have been born in an area of India where the Brahminical class is truthful (according to what knowledge they actually have), and even have retained remnants of some of the other good qualities of a Brahmana, but don't have the slightest idea of how you could identify the shadows of other varnas in we, the demons of the west, and mercifully tolerate our company while educating and cultivating us towards God Consciousness.

 

Why? That is for you to figure out. Re-read Srila Prabhupada's Gita as it is for hints if you actually want to endear yourself to the Lord by sharing his mercy and uplifting fallen souls, as opposed to engaging in mundane humanitarian efforts, and offering Sri Murti puja items that he just plain doesn't need, which may keep you dutiful and sattvically inclined, but bereft of devotional fervor to save other's souls, and thus very impersonal.

[Kulapavana]

 

 

From King Yudhisthira's

Answers to Dharmaraja

 

Yaksha: What make one a brahmana, birth, learning or behavior?

Yudhisthira: It is behavior alone that make a person a brahmana. Even if one who is expert in the four Vedas, born of brahmana parents, but whose behavior is not proper should be considered a sudra.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

 

From King Yudhisthira's

 

 

 

Answers to Dharmaraja

 

 

Yaksha: What make one a brahmana, birth, learning or behavior?

Yudhisthira: It is behavior alone that make a person a brahmana. Even if one who is expert in the four Vedas, born of brahmana parents, but whose behavior is not proper should be considered a sudra.

 

Two good quotes on two different subjects!

 

RCB