Who is a brahmana?

[kaisersose]

 

Yes you are envious.

 

I see this accusation *a lot* on this forum. Why is it that anyone who questions the Hare Krishna system or people must be doing so out of envy?

 

Perhaps whenever you ask questions or disagree, you are doing so out of envy & you think that is the way it is with everyone. For instance, you do not agree with Mayavada beliefs. Is that out of envy? Or is it the usual case of double standards where the concept applies only to those who question your beliefs?

 

Just FYI, there is nothing to be envious about at all. Not a single point that I can think of. So the questions are not out of envy, but something else. Like our friend Andy108 would say, I will let you figure that one out.

 

Cheers

[bhaktatraveler]

 

I see this accusation *a lot* on this forum. Why is it that anyone who questions the Hare Krishna system or people must be doing so out of envy?

 

Perhaps whenever you ask questions or disagree, you are doing so out of envy & you think that is the way it is with everyone. For instance, you do not agree with Mayavada beliefs. Is that out of envy? Or is it the usual case of double standards where the concept applies only to those who question your beliefs?

 

Just FYI, there is nothing to be envious about at all. Not a single point that I can think of. So the questions are not out of envy, but something else. Like our friend Andy108 would say, I will let you figure that one out.

 

Cheers

 

I don't know, looks like a lot of warm air for such a simple agreement with your admission in a previous post. Pretty sure you said 'due to my latent envy' Good self assesment, you would know! I agree.

 

RCB

[rahalkar]

First I would like to make a general point which is - Brahmin is by quality of one's behavior and one's type of work. Regarding this, Sri Manu-Samhita says:

 

"Whether he performs other rituals and duties or not, one who perfectly chants mantras glorifying the Supreme Personality of Godhead should be considered a perfect brähmaëa, eligible to understand the Supreme Lord."<o></o>

- Manu-saàhitä 2.87<o></o>

 

Some of the qualities of Brahmana are constant truthfullness, performing austerity, giving charity, cleanliness, fasting, reading/teaching Vedic Scriptuers, forgiveness etc.

 

About your specific question 1, the answer is yes.

 

The four varnas are by quality of one's qualities/behavior and not by birth. Because the Supreme Lord says in BG 4.13, that four varnas are by Guna-Karma and not by Birth.

 

The spiritual position of the Vaishnava (devotee of Lord Krishna/Rama/Vishnu) is higher than the position of a Brahmana. Becuase someone can be a Brahmana but not a devotee of Lord Vishnu, he/she may be worshipper of other devi/devatas or he/she may be impersonalist.

 

About your question 2, those who were Gurus and fell down, were they Brahmins? Yes, they were Brahmins before they fell down. After spiritually falling down, they are not. But the most important point here is that one can rectify one's behavior and get back on track. In this material world, we all know, that Maya is very strong. We should focus on how someone is bravely trying to get away from the clutches of Maya and try to surrender to the Supreme Lord and not focus on someone's occassional and temporary fall downs.

 

About your question 3, Srila Prabhupada gave Brahmin initiation to those who exhibited Brahminical qualities and expressed stong desire to do Deity worship etc. at the time of initiation. That's why Srila Prabhupada gave Brahmin initiations. Later on, some of those might have deviated. Just as someone with good living/food habits, goes to a doctor for health check up. Doctor runs the different tests and reports come out good, so the doctor gives good health certificate. Some years later, the person develops bad food/life habits and his health goes down. Someone may question how come the doctor certified him to be of good health? Was the doctor's judgement wrong? No, the doctor was not wrong. At the time of health examination, this person had good health, later on this person deviated.

 

I would like to share again the teachings of Bhagavat Dharma that regardless of one's type of work - brahminical, kshatriya, vaisya or sudra, anyone can become devotee of the Lord. e.g. Saint Chokhamela. His family profession was that of sudra (disposing off dead animals), but Saint Chokhamela is exalted Vaishnava. Another example is that of Saint Gora Kumbhar whose work consisted of making the earthern pots which is not brahminical work. While engaged in that occupational duty, he performed his devotional service to Lord Hari, therefore he is a great Vaishnava.

 

This is what Srila Prabhupada has taught that anyone, regardless of whatever background/birth he/she might have had, anyone can chant the Holy Name of Lord Krishna and perfect one's life.

 

Hare Krishna!

[kaisersose]

I think it is important to respond back, or some unsuspecting people may actually believe such posts to be the truth.

 

 

First I would like to make a general point which is - Brahmin is by quality of one's behavior and one's type of work. Regarding this, Sri Manu-Samhita says:

 

"Whether he performs other rituals and duties or not, one who perfectly chants mantras glorifying the Supreme Personality of Godhead should be considered a perfect brähmaëa, eligible to understand the Supreme Lord."<o></o>

- Manu-saàhitä 2.87

That is a verse on what the Brahmana's priorities should be. Nothing in there about how to identify a Brahmana. The Manu Smriti also says,

 

2.35 According to the teaching of the revealed texts, the Kudakarman (tonsure) must be performed, for the sake of spiritual merit, by all twice-born men in the first or third year after birth.

 

2.36 In the eighth year after conception, one should perform the initiation (upanayana) of a Brahmana, in the eleventh after conception (that) of a Kshatriya, but in the twelfth that of a Vaisya.

 

If your theory is correct, how does the Manu Smriti author expect one to know if the year old child is going to display Brahmana characterestics when he grows up? If you have actually read the Manu Smriti instead of copy-pasting selective quotes noted down by your peers, then you would know that varna is determined by birth to the Manu Smriti author, as is the case other traditional works.

 

Also, there is no shortage of such claims which make things "easy". Read a verse from this book and all your sins will be washed away. Take a dip inthe ganga and all your sins are washed away. The list is long...

 

 

Some of the qualities of Brahmana are constant truthfullness, performing austerity, giving charity, cleanliness, fasting, reading/teaching Vedic Scriptuers, forgiveness etc.

These are qualities a Brahmana should attempt to have. These are not critieria to determine one's varna and no one has interpreted them that way expect for a few Johnny-come latey Gurus.

 

 

The four varnas are by quality of one's qualities/behavior and not by birth. Because the Supreme Lord says in BG 4.13, that four varnas are by Guna-Karma and not by Birth.

Completely wrong. All that verse says is Krishna created the four varnas. Everything else you wrote above is your own creation and is not from the verse. Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

 

The spiritual position of the Vaishnava (devotee of Lord Krishna/Rama/Vishnu) is higher than the position of a Brahmana. Becuase someone can be a Brahmana but not a devotee of Lord Vishnu, he/she may be worshipper of other devi/devatas or he/she may be impersonalist.

I highly doubt your friends believe this. It is extremely important to them to be classified as Brahmanas.

 

 

About your question 2, those who were Gurus and fell down, were they Brahmins? Yes, they were Brahmins before they fell down. After spiritually falling down, they are not.

But here is the problem. Was he a non-Brahmana, who temporarily displayed Brahmana characterestics and fooled Prabhupada or was he a Brahmana who fell down later? Both options are equally plausible in your dynamic varna theory. How do you know which?

 

You cannot make this stuff up as you go along. Varna is not dynamic to be changed as people fall up & down. A Brahmana who falls is a Brahmana, though he has fallen. Drona was a Brahmana though he fought in wars and killed people. Karna was not a Brahmana by birth and and was cursed by Parashurama for lying about his real identity. Arjuna was a kshatriya even though he did not want to fight. Krishna's message to him was to perform his Kshatriya dharma. Vidura was never called a Brahmana, though he was wise and Gautama accepted Jabala as a disciple only after he was convinced about his lineage. Now there may be a couple of isolated verses disagreeing with the norm, but these sources are dubious and are easily discarded in favor of mainstream evidence. We can find isolated verses in support of just about anything - including an Allah Upanishad.

 

I am not even going into the fact that the historical tradition in India that varna has been known by birth for thousands of years and the only cases of departure are from recent groups with agendas. If you disagree with any of this, feel free to provide evidence.

 

The root problem I see here is western devotees have been fed a line on how varna system in India has "lost its meaning" due to corrupt Brahmanas and how it is important for western devotees to "become" Brahmanas. This sets the ground for all the misconceptions floating around on this forum.

 

Cheers

[Kyros]

 

That is a verse on what the Brahmana's priorities should be. Nothing in there about how to identify a Brahmana. The Manu Smriti also says,

 

2.35 According to the teaching of the revealed texts, the Kudakarman (tonsure) must be performed, for the sake of spiritual merit, by all twice-born men in the first or third year after birth.

 

2.36 In the eighth year after conception, one should perform the initiation (upanayana) of a Brahmana, in the eleventh after conception (that) of a Kshatriya, but in the twelfth that of a Vaisya.

 

If your theory is correct, how does the Manu Smriti author expect one to know if the year old child is going to display Brahmana characterestics when he grows up? If you have actually read the Manu Smriti instead of copy-pasting selective quotes noted down by your peers, then you would know that varna is determined by birth to the Manu Smriti author, as is the case other traditional works.

I've actually recently learned/remembered that there is a ceremony called the garbhadana-samskara ceremony which is done by families to acquire a child in accordance to their own caste. This is also mentioned in the Manu-Smriti 2.27 and various other places. I don't know where to find details of the ceremony at the moment.

 

Most "brahmana" families aren't aware of this and don't do it, so they may get a child from a different caste and as a result, you get a child who acts completely differently than what a brahmana does, yet they still consider him a brahmana. I believe that's where the mistake arises.

 

Noone expects caste to be determined immediately. It takes time to understand someones nature. When you meet someone, you have no idea who they are, but after awhile you get used to their nature and character. This is the only way to understand someones position.

 

Mahabharata Anusasana-parva 143.50

 

 

 

na yonir napi samskaro na srutam na ca santatih

karanani dvijatvasya vrttam eva tu karanam

 

 

 

 

"Neither birth, nor

samskaras

, nor learning, nor progeny are the qualifications to be a

brahmana

. Only

brahminical

conduct is the basis for

brahminical

status."

 

 

 

 

There's also the mention of Visvamitra who was a Kshatriya, but became a Brahmana through his actions.

 

Mahabharata, Adi-parva 174:

 

 

ksatriyo'ham bhavan vipras tapah-svadhyayah-sadhanah

sva-dharmam na prahasyami nesyami ca balena gam

dhig balam ksatriya-balam brahma-tejo-balam balam

balabalam viniscitya tapa eva param balam

tatapa sarvan diptaujah brahmanatvam avaptavan

"Visvamitra said to Vasistha: You are a brahmana, endowed with the qualities of austerity and Vedic knowledge. I am a ksatriya, so on the basis of my nature I will forcibly take this cow (Nandini).

 

"Later, when Visvamitra was defeated, he declared that the strength of the ksatriya was inferior to that of the brahmanas. He thus decided that the performance of austerities was the only way to empower one with superior strength.

"The greatly effulgent Visvamitra thus performed all kinds of austerities and attained the position of a brahmana."

 

[rahalkar]

 

 

That is a verse on what the Brahmana's priorities should be. Nothing in there about how to identify a Brahmana. The Manu Smriti also says,

 

 

 

Where does it say in translation of Sri Manu Samhita 2.87 that those should be priorities? Where? Manu Samhita 2.87 is the definition what Brahmin is.

 

I would like to make one general point - Brahminical qualities and Brahminical activities are supportive of each other. Performing Brahminical activities such as Deity worship etc. purifies one and one develops more of Brahminical qualities and more one has Brahminical qualities, one wants to do more of Brahminical activities.

 

 

 

Also, there is no shortage of such claims which make things "easy". Read a verse from this book and all your sins will be washed away. Take a dip inthe ganga and all your sins are washed away. The list is long...

 

 

 

If it is easy, then what is so wrong about it. It should be easy for a child to reach his/her eternal father/creator. Why should it not be easy?

 

 

 

These are qualities a Brahmana should attempt to have. These are not critieria to determine one's varna and no one has interpreted them that way expect for a few Johnny-come latey Gurus.

 

 

 

If the Brahminical behavior/qualities is not the essence of being a Brahmin, then what else is?

 

Question. Please tell us What is the criteria of being a Brahmin, according to your understanding?

 

Question. Is there any scriptural Verse you can point to which says one can not be Brahmin unless one is born in Brahmin family?

 

One of the qualification of a Brahmin is "Brahma janati iti Brahmana".

 

Let's say for argument that someone is Brahmin by birth. So someone is born in Brahmin caste, then he grows up and becomes an atheist. Is he still Brahmin? How can a Brahmin be an atheist? It's a contradictory term. This refutes the argument that Brahmin is by birth.

 

 

 

Completely wrong. All that verse says is Krishna created the four varnas. Everything else you wrote above is your own creation and is not from the verse. Feel free to prove me wrong.

 

 

 

Who can know who is Brahmana or not, better than the Supreme Lord Sri Hari who has created them and everything else? In Srimad Bhagavad Gita 4.13, the Lord says:

 

Chatur varnyam maya srushtam, guna karma vibhagashah

tasya kartaram api mam viddhi akartaram avyayam

 

The Sansktrit itself is very straight forward. Please translate it word by word.

 

The Lord says "gunakarma" vibhagashah. The four varnas are established by Lord Krishna according to "guna" and "karma". Guna means "qualities" and "karma" means activities/occupational duties. Lord Krishna doesn't say janma karma vibhagashah. Therefore this is direct evidence that four varna system is not based on birth.

 

 

 

I highly doubt your friends believe this. It is extremely important to them to be classified as Brahmanas.

 

 

 

Some of my friends are 2nd initiated and they are at the Altar performing Deity Worship 3-4 days a week. All of them have the attitude that they are the lowest and everyone else is superior to them. They think that by the causeless mercy of Guru and Lord Krishna, they have been given a chance to worship the Deity which they don't deserve. If you are in Dallas area, you are welcome to come and visit my friends at Sri Sri Radha Kalachandji Dham.

 

Perhaps you have had a bad experience with someone who you know at one of our temples. I don't know the details, but I can understand it's possible. I can only apologize on their behalf and request you not to let few odd negative experiences with ISKCON devotee to polarize your views on what is bonafide Vaishnava Sampradaya. ISKCON is Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya and it is indeed very special because Lord Gauranga appeared in it.

 

 

 

But here is the problem. Was he a non-Brahmana, who temporarily displayed Brahmana characterestics and fooled Prabhupada or was he a Brahmana who fell down later? Both options are equally plausible in your dynamic varna theory. How do you know which?

 

 

 

There is no problem and no one fooled anyone. Every living entity is dear child of all loving God and every living entity has "birthright" to worship Him if it so sincerely desires and nothing should stop it. These are the teachings of Bhagwat Dharma. That's why Srila Prabhupada gave Brahman initiation to his disciples, who at the time of their Brahman initiation exhibited Brahminical behavior and strong desire to do Brahminical activities/duties, so that they can do Deity Worship.

 

 

 

You cannot make this stuff up as you go along. Varna is not dynamic to be changed as people fall up & down. A Brahmana who falls is a Brahmana, though he has fallen. Drona was a Brahmana though he fought in wars and killed people. Karna was not a Brahmana by birth and and was cursed by Parashurama for lying about his real identity. Arjuna was a kshatriya even though he did not want to fight. Krishna's message to him was to perform his Kshatriya dharma. Vidura was never called a Brahmana, though he was wise and Gautama accepted Jabala as a disciple only after he was convinced about his lineage. Now there may be a couple of isolated verses disagreeing with the norm, but these sources are dubious and are easily discarded in favor of mainstream evidence. We can find isolated verses in support of just about anything - including an Allah Upanishad.

 

 

 

The examples you listed of Sri Dronacharya, Karna etc. do not refute the statement that varna is not by birth.

 

Sri Dronacharya besides teaching Pandavas, Kauravas about military weapons and war tactics, he also taught them about different Vedic Scriputres which is one of the duties of Brahmana. He was practising

Brahaminical duties as well. He took up Kashtriya activities in addition to his Brahminical duties and fought in the Mahabharat war. Therefore Sri Dronacharya's example does not support your argument.

 

Lord Parasuram rejected Karna not becuase Karna was not born as Brahman, but Karna was not Brahman by his conduct. Karna was following Kshatriya duties/activities and not Brahmana duties. That's why Lord Parasuram denied him and therefore example of Karna does not support your argument.

 

Sri Vidura was a great wise man and great devotee of Lord Krishna. He undertook the duties of a minister to the King which are not classified as Brahminical duties. Therefore, Sri Vidura is not considered a Brahmana although he is a great devotee of the Lord.

 

 

 

I am not even going into the fact that the historical tradition in India that varna has been known by birth for thousands of years and the only cases of departure are from recent groups with agendas. If you disagree with any of this, feel free to provide evidence.

 

 

 

What you understand to be Varna system is actually caste system which is very demoniac where poor dalits are oppressed, not allowed to come to Temple. In my home state of Maharashtra, because of the hideous caste system Dalits were not allowed to come to Temple of Pandharpur and other Temples, not allowed to take water from common village well or not allowed to take water from river ghat. They had to walk long distances to the far side of the river just to get water because it was considered by the caste Brahmana that shadow of dalit pollutes them. What nonsense.

 

Saint Chokhamela was born in dalit family but he was a great devotee of Lord Panduranga. The caste Brahmanas at the Temple banned him from coming to Temple because he was Dalit. So Saint Chokhamela would take darshan of Panduranga from outside. Such was the tyranical caste system which you mistakenly take it as Varna System. This is not at all what Lord Krishna established. Lord Krishna created chatur varnyam maya srushtam "gunakarma" vibhagasah, not "janmakarma" vibhagasah.

 

Let me put a quote from HG Sankarshan Das Adhikari who is Brahmana initiated by Srila Prabhupada and is a Guru.

--

The current caste system in India is called asuri varnashram, demonic caste system, and it is based on birth.The original caste system in Vedic culture was called daivi varnashram or divine caste system. It was based on one's qualities and activities. It was not based on birth. The present day exploitative caste system was introduced by materialistic brahmanas who were brahmanas by birth only and not qualification. The original caste system was based on harmony, love, and co-operation of everyone working according to their natural talents for the betterment of all. The Krishna consciousness movement is dedicated to restoring the original pure caste system all over the world so that everyone can become prosperous, peaceful, and happy.

 

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

---

 

 

 

The root problem I see here is western devotees have been fed a line on how varna system in India has "lost its meaning" due to corrupt Brahmanas and how it is important for western devotees to "become" Brahmanas. This sets the ground for all the misconceptions floating around on this forum.

 

 

 

It is not the western devotees who have misunderstanding. Understanding they have on this subject, is not their own, but given to them by Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya Acharyas coming from Lord Krishna. All Brahma-Madva-Gaudiya devotees in India also understand that Varna is not by birth but by qualities/duties because Lord Krishna says - chatur varnyam maya srustam "gunakarma" vibhagasah not "janmakarma" vibhagasah.

[rahalkar]

 

 

Mahabharata Anusasana-parva 143.50

 

 

 

 

na yonir napi samskaro na srutam na ca santatih

 

 

 

karanani dvijatvasya vrttam eva tu karanam

 

 

"Neither birth, nor

samskaras

, nor learning, nor progeny are the qualifications to be a

brahmana

. Only

brahminical

conduct is the basis for

brahminical

status."

 

 

 

 

 

"The greatly effulgent Visvamitra thus performed all kinds of austerities and attained the position of a brahmana."

 

 

 

 

 

These two verses also support the original statement by Lord Himself in Srimad Bhagavad Gita 4.13 that Lord established the four Varnas by "guna" and "karm" and not based on birth.

 

 

 

 

Thank you Kyros.

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

Bhagavad Purana 1.7.55

sūta uvāca

arjunaḥ sahasājñāya

harer hārdam athāsinā

maṇiḿ jahāra mūrdhanyaḿ

dvijasya saha-mūrdhajam

 

Just then Arjuna could understand the motive of the Lord by His equivocal orders, and thus with his sword he severed both hair and jewel from the head of Aśvatthāmā.

 

Draupadi may have spared Asvatthama, but Lord Krsna (GOD) and Bhima wanted him dead.

 

You omit, Youdhister Maharaj Sahdev and Nakul agreed with Draupadi.

You should also learn to read a bit of Sanskrit and not rely on translation, Suta Goswami is saying Dvijas hair and jewel was removed.

 

Clear?

 

 

 

Despite all that, he still never called Karna directly a "suta." He only made fun of his heritage, not himself.

 

How is insulting ones heritage any different from one self. Infect it is worse, I was ok when a guy long time ago insulted me but when he insulted my mum and dad I stood up ready to fight him. You can defend Arjun till the cows come home but the fact remains he addressed him by his apparent birth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And you wonder why the people of India was so easily brainwashed by the British?

 

I rest my case.

 

They did by breaking the back bone of Vedic culture by spreading lies about cast system and people like you took the bait and we are still suffering because of it.

 

 

 

Arjuna's family tradition was to live according to the Vedas, as was everybody elses.

 

Again you are dodging let me spell it for you and I quote

BG2.31: Considering your specific duty as a ksatriya, you should know that there is no better engagement for you than fighting on religious principles; and so there is no need for hesitation.

 

This is his Kula i.e. his family tradition.that is what he was worried about The VarnaShankra.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

 

Question. Is there any scriptural Verse you can point to which says one can not be Brahmin unless one is born in Brahmin family?

 

Mahabharata Shanti parva

 

"Yudhishthira said, 'Thou O grandsire, art endued with wisdom and knowledge of the scriptures, with conduct and behaviour, with diverse kinds of excellent attributes, and also with years. Thou art distinguished above others by intelligence and wisdom and penances. I shall, therefore, O thou that art the foremost of all righteous men, desire to address enquiries to thee respecting Righteousness. There is not another man, O king, in all the worlds, who is worthier of being questioned on such subjects. O best of kings, how may one, if he happens to be a Kshatriya or a Vaisya or a Sudra, succeed in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? It behoveth thee to tell me the means. Is it by penances the most austere, or by religious acts, or by knowledge of the scriptures, that a person belonging to any of the three inferior orders succeeds in acquiring the status of a Brahmana? Do tell me this, O grandsire!'

"Bhishma said, 'The status of a Brahmana, O Yudhishthira, is incapable of acquisition by a person belonging to any of the three other orders. That status is the highest with respect to all creatures. Travelling through innumerable orders of existence, by undergoing repeated births, one at last, in some birth, becomes born as a Brahmana.

 

 

...."Bhishma continued, 'Hearing these words of his, Purandara said unto him. The status of a Brahmana, O Matanga, which thou desirest to acquire is really unattainable by thee. It is true, thou desirest to acquire it, but then it is incapable of acquisition by persons begotten on uncleansed souls. O thou of foolish understanding, thou art sure to meet with destruction if thou persistest in this pursuit. Desist, therefore, from this vain endeavour without any delay. This object of thy desire, viz., the status of a Brahmana, which is the foremost of everything, is incapable of being won by penances. Therefore, by coveting that foremost status, thou wilt incur sure destruction. One born as a Chandala can never attain to that status which is regarded as the most sacred among the deities and Asuras and human beings!'" end of quote.

 

 

Varna has traditionally been recognised by birth, birth again is determined by Guna and Karma, so the cycle goes on, until one decide to transcend all designation.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

[chandu_69]

 

Pranam

 

 

 

Mahabharata Shanti parva

 

"Yudhishthira said, ....

 

Yudhishthira also said

Yudhisthira: It is behavior alone that make a person a brahmana. Even if one who is expert in the four Vedas, born of brahmana parents, but whose behavior is not proper should be considered a sudra.

[Kyros]

 

You omit, Youdhister Maharaj Sahdev and Nakul agreed with Draupadi. You should also learn to read a bit of Sanskrit and not rely on translation, Suta Goswami is saying Dvijas hair and jewel was removed.

 

Clear?

Maharaja Yudisthir is not God.

Sahadev is not God.

Nakul is not God.

Draupadi is not God.

 

Lord Krsna is God.

 

Asvatthama was a twice born who fell from his position. Hence why Lord Krsna refers to him as a relative of a brahmana and says he can be killed.

 

Mahabharata (Shanti-parva, Moksha-dharma, Chapter 188)

 

 

bharadvaja uvaca

jangamanam asankhyeyah sthavaranam ca jatayah

tesham vividha-varnanam kuto varna-vinishcayah

bhrigur uvaca

na vishesho 'sti varnanam sarva-brahmam idam jagat

brahmana purva-shrishtam hi karmabhir varnatam gatam

himsanrita-priya lubdhah sarva-karmopajivinah

krishnah shauca-paribhrashtas te dvijah shudratam gatah

 

 

“Bharadvaja said: There are innumerable categories of animate and inanimate living entities. How can one determine their various varnas?”

“Bhrigu replied: There are no real differences among varnas. When Brahma first created the universe, it was inhabited only by brahmanas. Later on, as a result of their activities, people attained the designations of different varnas.

“When the brahmanas commit violence, speak lies, become greedy, earn their livelihood by any and all activities, lose their purity by sinful activities, then they become degraded into shudras.”

 

Take note of the word "dvijah" up above.

 

Just because it says "twice-born" in sanskrit doesn't mean anything. Asvatthama is a twice-born, and comitted sinful activities and degraded himself into a sudra.

 

 

How is insulting ones heritage any different from one self. Infect it is worse, I was ok when a guy long time ago insulted me but when he insulted my mum and dad I stood up ready to fight him. You can defend Arjun till the cows come home but the fact remains he addressed him by his apparent birth.

I never said he wasn't addressing him by his apparent low birth. You're making assumptions here.

 

If my father was a janitor, and I end up being the President of a country, why would I get mad if someone calls me the son of a janitor?

 

Am I suppose to be insulted?

 

 

They did by breaking the back bone of Vedic culture by spreading lies about cast system and people like you took the bait and we are still suffering because of it.

In case you don't know, they teach in the American schools here that the caste system is based on birth, not qualities like I'm saying. You're the one agreeing with them, not me.

 

 

Again you are dodging let me spell it for you and I quote

BG2.31: Considering your specific duty as a ksatriya, you should know that there is no better engagement for you than fighting on religious principles; and so there is no need for hesitation.

 

This is his Kula i.e. his family tradition.that is what he was worried about The VarnaShankra.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Being a Kshatriya was Arjuna's individual duty, and Lord Krsna was telling him to do just that.

 

Here's some more scriptural quotes that should make this MORE clearer, as if they're not already.

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 9.2.17

 

 

 

dhṛṣṭād dhārṣṭam abhūt kṣatraḿ

brahma-bhūyaḿ gataḿ kṣitau

nṛgasya vaḿśaḥ sumatir

bhūtajyotis tato vasuḥ

 

"From the son of Manu named Dhṛṣṭa came a kṣatriya caste called Dhārṣṭa, whose members achieved the position of brāhmaṇas in this world. Then, from the son of Manu named Nṛga came Sumati. From Sumati came Bhūtajyoti, and from Bhūtajyoti came Vasu."

 

 

 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 7.11.35

 

 

 

 

yasya yal lakṣaṇaḿ proktaḿ

puḿso varṇābhivyañjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

 

"If one shows the symptoms of being a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification."

 

 

 

 

Mahabharata (Anushasana-parva 163.5, 8, 26, 46, 48, 51, and 59)

 

 

 

 

 

“Uma said: O Lord, O sinless master of the living entities, I have some doubt about how members of the three castes-kshatriya, vaishya, and shudra-will attain through their own nature the platform of brahmanas.

 

 

 

 

 

“Maheshvara replied: If kshatriyas or vaishyas become situated in the behavior of brahmanas and spend their lives in the occupations of brahmanas, then such persons can attain the position of brahmanas.

“O goddess, by the same procedure a shudra can become a brahmana and a vaishya can become a kshatriya."

 

 

 

“By the results of these activities and by becoming an adherent of the agama scriptures, or in other words, by taking initiation through the pancaratrika system, then a low-born shudra also becomes a brahmana."

 

 

 

 

 

 

“O goddess, Lord Brahma has personally declared that by performing pure activities, a self-controlled shudra is fit to be served just like a brahmana."

 

 

 

 

“In my opinion, if pious activities and good character are found in a shudra, it should be understood that he is better than a brahmana."

 

 

 

“Birth, purificatory processes, study of the Vedas, and good birth are not the criterion for being a brahmana. The only criterion is one's behavior."

 

 

 

 

 

 

“A person is born as a brahmana in this world simply as a result of his nature. A shudra situated in the profession of a brahmana also becomes a brahmana."

 

 

 

“I have thus explained to you the secret of how a person who is born as a shudra becomes a brahmana and how by deviating from his occupational duties a person born in the family of a brahmana becomes a shudra.”

 

[rahalkar]

Thank you Kyros for taking your time to explain the essence of who is a Brahmana and providing the scriptural references. Thank you.

 

Hare Krishna!

[raghu]

 

 

From King Yudhisthira's

Answers to Dharmaraja

 

Yaksha: What make one a brahmana, birth, learning or behavior?

Yudhisthira: It is behavior alone that make a person a brahmana. Even if one who is expert in the four Vedas, born of brahmana parents, but whose behavior is not proper should be considered a sudra.

 

 

Kulapavana,

 

I have repeatedly heard this story being offered up as proof that varna should be classified based on conduct instead of birth. However, I have been unable to locate it in the Mahabharata so far. Can you quote the exact chapter and verse numbers so that I can look it up?

 

thanks,

Raghu