Sri Baladeva Vidyabhushana (Gaudiya Vaishnava): sudras are not allowed to study Vedas

[raghu]

 

Since *you* are the one providing the link to the iskcon translation of Govinda Bhashya (above), I trust you will not take issue with anything I quote *from* it. So take a look at VS 3.34-38 along with the accompanying commentary by your own Baladeva Vidyabhushana. Therein, Sri Baladeva says repeatedly that shudras are not eligible to study the Vedas. Now one might think that a shudra can become a brahmana and then study the Veda, but Baldeva refutes this as well by stating that a shudra cannot undergo any reformatory samskaras.

 

So I guess Baladeva Vidyabhushana, the Vedanta commentator for the Gaudiya sampradaya, is also a bigoted caste brahmin who s to a bogus idea.

 

If it is beginning to bother you that your own acharyas disagree with your ideas, feel free to just flame me again as always.

Predictably, shiva was not interested in responding on a point-by-point, evidence-based manner, even when *he* was the one who brought up the evidence! Therefore, let me quote Sri Baladeva Vidyabhushana, the Gaudiya commentator, whose translation is posted on the iskcon website given by shiva earlier:

 

 

Commentary on vedAnta-sUtra 1.3.34 (translation courtesy of iskcon media):

 

"The word na (not), taken from sUtra 28, is understood in this sUtra also. Here it means "a shUdra is not qualified to study the Vedas." "

 

 

sUtra 1.3.36:

 

saMskAraparAmarShAt tadabhAvAbhilApAchcha

 

This is also because the scriptures state both the necessity of undergoing the samskAras (rituals of purification) and the exclusion of the shUdras from these rituals.

 

Baladeva's commentary (translation from iskcon):

 

"...This shows that brAhmaNas are eligible to study the Vedas because they are also eligible for the saMskAras. The scriptures also say nAgnir na yaj~no na kriyA na saMskAro na vratAni shUdrasya (A shUdra is not allowed to light the sacred fire, perform a fire-sacrifice, perform religious rituals, undergo the saMskAras, or follow vows of penance). In this way it is established that because a shUdra is not allowed to undergo the saMskAras he is also not allowed to study the Vedas..."

 

 

sUtra 1.3.37: tadabhAvanirdhAraNe cha pravR^itteH

 

(This is so) also because care is taken to determine that (a student) is not (a shUdra).

 

Baladeva's commentary (translated by iskcon)

 

In the chAndogya upaniShad (4.4.4-5) (when asked about his caste, JAbAla said) nAham etad veda bho yad gotro 'ham asmi (I do not know into what caste I was born). These truthful words convinced the sage Gautama that JAbAla was not a shUdra. Gautama then said naitad abrAhmaNo vivaktum arhati samidhaM saumyAhara tvopaneShye na satyAd agAH (One who is not a brAhmaNa cannot speak in this way. O gentle one, please bring the sacred fuel and I shall initiate you as a brAhmaNa. You did not deviate from the truth). This endeavor by the guru Gautama demonstrates that only the brAhmaNas, kShatriyas, and vaishyas are eligible to receive the saMskAras. The shUdras are not eligible."

 

sUtra 1.3.38

 

shravaNAdhyayanArthaM partiShedhAt smR^itesh cha

 

This is so because the smR^iti-shAstra also prohibits the shUdras from hearing and studying (the Vedas).

 

Commentary by Baladeva Vidyabhushana (translation by iskcon)

 

The smR^iti-shAstra says pady u ha vA etat shmashAnaM yach chhUdras tasmAch chhUdrasamIpe nAdhyetavyam (A shUdra is a beast. He is a creamtorium. For this reason he should not be taught the Vedas). The smR^iti also says tasmAch chhUdro bahupashur ayaj~nIyaH (A shUdra is a big beast. He cannot perform the Vedic sacrifices). Because of thes prohibitions a shUdra is not eligible to hear the Vedas. Because he is not allowed to hear the Vedas, it is therefore also not possible for him to study the Vedas, understand their meaning, or follow the rituals and penances described in them. All these are forbidden for him. The smR^iti-shAsra says nAgnir na yaj~naH shUdrasya tathaivAdhyayanaM kutaH kevalaiva tu shushruShA trivarNAnAM vidhIyate (A shUdra is not allowed to light the sacred fire or perform Vedic sacrifices. Neither is he allowed to study the Vedas. What is he allowed to do? His sole duty is to faithfully serve the three higher castes). The smRti also says vedAkShara-vichAraNe shUdro patati tatkShaNAt (a shUdra who studies the Vedas at once falls into degraded life).

 

Some souls, such as Vidura and others, although born as shUdras, become elevated by their attainmet of perfect transcendental knowledge. By hearing and understanding the PurAnas and other transcendental literatures, shUdras and others can become liberated. The only real classes of higher and lower among men are determined by the final result of their lives.

Please kindly do not flame me. These are Baladeva's own words, provided via iskcon. It is very clear that Baladeva rejects the view that a shudra can become a brahmana. If any gaudiya vaishnavas do not like this idea, kindly take up your objections with your own sampradaya acharya.

[andy108]

Raghu,

 

You may be polarized on the mental plane by tendency (intellectual class), but the until you are relieved of the ignorant presumption that a person born in a sudra family is necessarily unqualified to be trained by a brahmana when his true inner nature is discovered as a mismatch for his birth circumstances, then perhaps you should just be a good sudra, stop reading the vedas, and take up some menial service under the direction of a broad-minded Madhva of Gaudiya Vaisnava Brahmana until you gain enough humility to throw you from your high horse and get with the program. Then we could start you on Bhagavad Gita and let your intellectual qualities flourish unbound by the ropes of your sanctimony.

[raghu]

 

Raghu,

 

You may be polarized on the mental plane by tendency (intellectual class),

 

andy108 and all other "pure devotees" representing Prabhupada:

 

These are Sri Baladeva Vidyabhushana's writings. They are not my opinions. Baladeva Vidyabhushana is an authority in your sampradaya. As in, you cannot claim to represent the sampradaya if you disagree with him. If you have a problem with what he wrote, flaming me is not going to help you.

[kaisersose]

 

Raghu,

 

You may be polarized on the mental plane by tendency (intellectual class), but the until you are relieved of the ignorant presumption that a person born in a sudra family is necessarily unqualified to be trained by a brahmana when his true inner nature is discovered as a mismatch for his birth circumstances, then perhaps you should just be a good sudra, stop reading the vedas, and take up some menial service under the direction of a broad-minded Madhva of Gaudiya Vaisnava Brahmana until you gain enough humility to throw you from your high horse and get with the program. Then we could start you on Bhagavad Gita and let your intellectual qualities flourish unbound by the ropes of your sanctimony.

 

Dear Andy,

 

If you used your eyes and your average intellect to read the post, it is not Raghu, but Baladeva Vidya Bhushana who says so.

 

Now either you did not read the post before responding, which is bad enough or you read it and are pretending that Baladeva never took that position which is even worse. Either way, shame on you. You have a lot of cleanup to do within yourself before you preach to others on discussion forums.

 

If you want to be taken seriously, first acknowledge whatever Baladeva has written about Shudras . As long as you pretend and ignore and tap dance, your posts on the topic are completely worthless.

 

Cheers

[andy108]

 

Dear Andy,

 

If you used your eyes and your average intellect to read the post, it is not Raghu, but Baladeva Vidya Bhushana who says so.

 

Now either you did not read the post before responding, which is bad enough or you read it and are pretending that Baladeva never took that position which is even worse. Either way, shame on you. You have a lot of cleanup to do within yourself before you preach to others on discussion forums.

 

If you want to be taken seriously, first acknowledge whatever Baladeva has written about Shudras . As long as you pretend and ignore and tap dance, your posts on the topic are completely worthless.

 

Cheers

 

It is you who cannot read the very words he wrote. He spoke of SUDRAS.

 

What he means is exactly that. One who is a Sudra.

 

Someone who is actually a Sudra actually has no qualification to read and understand Scriptures. They have at most the capacity to kindly surrender to and follow the instructions of the person of higher caste who decides what labors they should execute.

 

His use of the term Sudra in no way describes one born in a Sudra family who displays incongruity with Sudra varna and should be matched with Gurukula of higher varna.

 

This is the whole point and the only point that is crucial for you to understand.

 

I, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and all the Gaudiya branch acaryas strictly disagree with your criteria for determining who a sudra is, and nothing you have quoted from Srila Baladeva Vidya Bhushana indicates that he agrees with your caste by birth only theory.

[kaisersose]

 

It is you who cannot read the very words he wrote. He spoke of SUDRAS.

 

What he means is exactly that. One who is a Sudra.

 

Someone who is actually a Sudra actually has no qualification to read and understand Scriptures. They have at most the capacity to kindly surrender to and follow the instructions of the person of higher caste who decides what labors they should execute.

 

His use of the term Sudra in no way describes one born in a Sudra family who displays incongruity with Sudra varna and should be matched with Gurukula of higher varna.

 

This is the whole point and the only point that is crucial for you to understand.

 

I, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and all the Gaudiya branch acaryas strictly disagree with your criteria for determining who a sudra is, and nothing you have quoted from Srila Baladeva Vidya Bhushana indicates that he agrees with your caste by birth only theory.

 

You are almost there.

 

Now please explain how you determine a Brahmana or Shudra according to your "not by birth" theory?

 

It cannot obviously be the way Prabhupada identified the true nature of Tamal & his peers as Brahmanas as we all know he was dead wrong on that. So I am curious to know how this determination occurs in your new radical "out of birth" theory?

 

Remember that no scripture says that an individual displays different Varna characterestics at different times. "One individual, one varna for life" is how it is written everywhere and accepted as such. If you disagree with this too, please state your reasons.

 

 

Thanks for your time.

[raghu]

 

His use of the term Sudra in no way describes one born in a Sudra family who displays incongruity with Sudra varna and should be matched with Gurukula of higher varna.

 

Aren't YOU the one who claimed that everyone in Kali Yuga is born a shUdra?

 

Well, Baladeva wrote in the commentary that I quoted that a shUdra is not eligible to undergo saMskAras.

 

Andy, being the expert on Gaudiya Vaishnavism that you are, can you explain to me how a shUdra becomes a brAhmana when he is not allowed to undergo saMskAras?

[andy108]

 

Aren't YOU the one who claimed that everyone in Kali Yuga is born a shUdra?

 

If you have to ask, and cannot provide a quote from me, then the answer to your question is evident.

 

No I never claimed such a thing.

 

My Guru told me that everyone born in Kali Yuga should be assumed to be of the quality of Sudra until they can prove otherwise. This as a result of the general population of India adhering to "Caste by Birth-ONLY" wherein plenty of rascals, due to their desire, are allowed by the Lord to incarnate into higher caste families, while not displaying the moral and ethical qualities of those higher castes, but simply being there so they can exercise false power over others in order to make up for the fact they have tiny hearts and even smaller linga.

 

 

Well, Baladeva wrote in the commentary that I quoted that a shUdra is not eligible to undergo saMskAras.

 

At the time, he saw it best that those with sudra qualifications would have no use for the samskaras of Vedic Viddhi and that is understandable.

 

 

Andy, being the expert on Gaudiya Vaishnavism that you are, can you explain to me how a shUdra becomes a brAhmana when he is not allowed to undergo saMskAras?

 

Sure. It is impossible, as previously stated to "make" a person who is Sudra by tendency and qualification "become" a brahmana by some ritual.

 

But in regards to those who are intellectually inclined, but largely ignorant in all other capacities and thus "Sudra'' by Kali Yuga's nature,

 

First of all, there has been the appearance of another Acarya in Baladeva's line. He has, as acarya's are wont to do, taken into consideration the time place and candidates he was preaching to, and authorized the dispensation of samskaras according to Sri Narada's Bhakti based Pancaratrika Viddhi, which are tailored to taking those most fallen in Kali yuga, who have even the slightest inclination to surrender to inquiry about Self-realization, and initiate their gradual path back home.

 

So as I related in the other thread, if one is ever at any moment honest and sincere in inquiry as to "who am I?", "who is supreme?" and willing to begin rudimentary sadhana instruction, we Gaudiya's share the mercy, and know that they are on the path, regardless of the near term failure to maintain sincerety which occurs quite often.

 

Even one born to Sudra caste and displaying Sudra qualities is eligible for certain of the Pancaratrika Vidhi Samskaras in order that they may benefit from their subtle purifying effects, yet it is not imagined, nor implied, that they will suddenly become highly qualified brahmanas in that lifetime. However if they follow the rules and regulations instructed according to their Varna, sudra, within a Gaudiya Vaisnava society, they are considered "as good as a brahmana", especially a so-called brahmana who is proud of his vedic scholarship but did not study the vedas with the goal of becoming a humble servant of the Lord, and thus may be brahmana, but not Vaisnava.

 

Hope this helps you see.

[kaisersose]

 

First of all, there has been the appearance of another Acarya in Baladeva's line. He has, as acarya's are wont to do, taken into consideration the time place and candidates he was preaching to, and authorized...

 

That is a candid admission. Can we agree then, that just as Prabhupada did something that Baladeva would never have sanctioned , it is also ok for Hridayananda to bless same sex couples?

It is a different time after all, with different circumstances and just as Prabhupada deviated from tradition for this reason, Hridayananda should by the exact same logic, be able to do the same?

Cheers

[andy108]

 

 

That is a candid admission. Can we agree then, that just as Prabhupada did something that Baladeva would never have sanctioned , it is also ok for Hridayananda to bless same sex couples?

It is a different time after all, with different circumstances and just as Prabhupada deviated from tradition for this reason, Hridayananda should by the exact same logic, be able to do the same?

Cheers

 

The difference is, you don't have tape recordings and unchanged manuscripts so as to know EXACTLY what Baladeva would or would not have sanctioned.

 

I have such from my Prabhupada, and I can say, and have argued based on the evidence, that Hridayananda has no sanction by his acarya to do what he is doing, and is in fact one who has cheated, and neglected his Guru's instructions.

 

You have yet to prove that there was any tradition, whereby Baladeva stated one must be squirt from the womb of a brahmana woman in order to be trained as brahmana. Yet you claim this is a tradition my Guru broke with.

 

You have no leg to stand on yet persist in your sophistry. It is a shame.

 

You withheld comment on the rest of my lucid analysis on the difference between the use of samskaras via the Vedic Vidhi system and those of Narada's Pancaratrika Vidhi, and how this relates to the saving of those souls born in gross ignorance outside of Bharata Varsa, and instead cherry picked a "candid admission" and twisted what was said to support your unsubstantiated claim that my Guru is taking license to be licentious similar to a known rogue and theif.

 

Is this brahminical activity? Don't you have anything better to do with your time? Like perform a puja or cook some roti or something?

[kaisersose]

 

You withheld comment on the rest of my lucid analysis on the difference between the use of samskaras via the Vedic Vidhi system and those of Narada's Pancaratrika Vidhi, and how this relates to the saving of those souls born in gross ignorance outside of Bharata Varsa, and instead cherry picked a "candid admission" and twisted what was said to support your unsubstantiated claim that my Guru is taking license to be licentious similar to a known rogue and theif.

 

I agree with all this. But this is part two which comes after you have made the varna identification. The question is how do you make such an identification in the first place?

 

It is not necessary for one to be a Brahmana to be saved as you mistakenly have assumed. The Hari dasa cult has been around for centures and has the full sanction of orthodox Madhva Brahmanas. Hari is available to one and all. This has nothing to do with the discussion in hand.

 

 

Is this brahminical activity? Don't you have anything better to do with your time? Like perform a puja or cook some roti or something?

 

The answer is in the question. If I had something better to do with my time, I would not be here, just as you and everyone else here.

 

Cheers

[andy108]

 

It is not necessary for one to be a Brahmana to be saved as you mistakenly have assumed.

 

Again, prescribing such a view to me, without evidence of such words coming from my pen, is a poor tactic. It is your own baseless assumption. There is every reason to imply however that the development of Brahminical qualities indicates advancement for one who has already been saved by virtue of accepting shelter of the Vaisnava Cult.

 

And yes the answer was in the question. I was subtly hinting that you are wasting your time on your jihad, for unsubmissive inquiry is tantamount to manipulation to fulfill an agenda, and anyone involved in such an effort is better off waving some incense in front of Sri Murti, or cooking some Capati, or just about anything else actually.

[raghu]

 

At the time, he saw it best that those with sudra qualifications would have no use for the samskaras of Vedic Viddhi and that is understandable.

 

"At the time" is nowhere to be found in the writings of Baladeva. That is merely your interjection to make what he wrote palatable to you.

 

 

Sure. It is impossible, as previously stated to "make" a person who is Sudra by tendency and qualification "become" a brahmana by some ritual.

 

Thank you for that dismissive appraisal of Vedic samskAras. But Baladeva writes that shUdras are not eligible to undergo samskAras. One of the samskAras is initiation. How can a shUdra become a brAhmana if he is not allowed to undergo initiation? You cannot simply declare one a brAhmana - there has to be a samskAra.

 

Or was I mistaken in assuming that you are a follower of "Vedic culture?"

 

 

First of all, there has been the appearance of another Acarya in Baladeva's line. He has, as acarya's are wont to do, taken into consideration the time place and candidates he was preaching to, and authorized the dispensation of samskaras according to Sri Narada's Bhakti based Pancaratrika Viddhi, which are tailored to taking those most fallen in Kali yuga, who have even the slightest inclination to surrender to inquiry about Self-realization, and initiate their gradual path back home.

 

And of course, you are about to provide the explicit references to substantiate this claim, right?

[Kyros]

So raghu, kaiserone, why don't you follow Baladeva prabhu's advice and not study the vedas?

 

And you, Sonic Yogi, you can't even get passed the "contradictions" despite after 34 years of reading the books.

[kaisersose]

 

So raghu, kaiserone, why don't you follow Baladeva prabhu's advice and not study the vedas?

 

Unlike you, Kyros?

 

Which Veda have you studied or studying and which Shakha exactly?

 

Thanks,

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

And you, Sonic Yogi, you can't even get passed the "contradictions" despite after 34 years of reading the books.

 

duh.

If I couldn't get past the contradictions then why do I still study the books?

 

Your logic is missing a critical component; signs of intelligence.

[Kyros]

I'm reading the Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavada Purana, and Garga Samhita.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Unlike you, Kyros?

 

Which Veda have you studied or studying and which Shakha exactly?

 

Thanks,

 

Caste brahmanas don't study the Vedas.

They study the market for professional priests.

[Kyros]

 

duh.

If I couldn't get past the contradictions then why do I still study the books?

 

Your logic is missing a critical component; signs of intelligence.

 

Not really, instead of spending time studying, just chant the Hare Krsna Mahamantra.

[kaisersose]

 

I'm reading the Bhagavad Gita, Bhagavada Purana, and Garga Samhita.

 

These are not vedas kyros and have no Shakas. The Gita and Puranas are available for all without restriction, do not require initiation and do not require Gurus either.

 

It is the 3 vedas [Rig, Sama, Yajur] that are restricted and that is what Baladeva is talking about. It is a whole other ball game. Just in case you do not know, Gaudiya Vaishnavas do not study the Vedas, even if they get initiated as Brahmanas. None of them know what Shakas are available for study either. Like I rightly suspected, they have been led to believe that they should become Brahmanas to attain Krishna and hence all this hoopla.

 

Thanks for your time,

[Kyros]

From your previous post it almost sounded like you knew what you were talking about.

Sorry to disappoint.

Sama Veda 7.1.2

 

 

 

 

"O venerable Sir, I studied the Rg, Yajur, Säma, and Atharva Veda as well as the Itihäsas and Puranas, which are the fifth Veda."

 

 

 

 

Sama Veda Kauthumiya Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.4

 

 

nama va rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama-veda atharvanas caturtha itihasa-puranah pancamo vedanam vedah

 

 

 

 

 

"Indeed, Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva are the names of the four Vedas. The Itihasas and Puranas are the fifth Veda."

(As stated by the above verses in the Sama Veda. The Puranas and epics are considered the Fifth Vedas).

 

 

Atharva Veda 11.7.24

 

 

 

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha

ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah

"The Rg, Säma, Yajur, and Atharvaveda, along with the Puranas, and all the demigods residing in the heavenly planets appeared from the Supreme Lord."

 

 

 

Atharva 15.6.10 and 15.6.12

 

 

 

 

sa brhatim disam anu vyacalat tam itihasas ca puranam ca gathas ca itihasasya ca sa vai puranasya ca gathanam ca narasamsinam ca priyam dhama bhavati ya evam veda

 

 

 

 

"He moved favorably towards Brhati and thus the Itihäsas, Puranas, Gäthäs, and Näräçaàsé became favorable to him. One who knows this verily becomes the dear abode of the Itihäsas and Puranas, Gäthas and Näräsaàsé."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Atharva Veda Gopatha Brahmana, purva 2.10

 

 

 

 

 

evam ime sarva veda nirmitah sa-kalpah sa-rahasyah sa-brahmanah sopanisatkah setihasah sanvakhyatah sa-puranan

 

 

 

 

 

"In this way, all the Vedas were manifested along with the Kalpas, Rahasyas, Brahmanas, Upanisads, Itihasas, Anvakhyatas and the Puranas."

 

 

 

 

Madhyandina-sruti, Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10

 

 

 

asya mahato bhutasya nihsvasitam etad yad rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama

vedo’tharvangirasa itihasah puranam ityadina

 

 

 

 

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."

 

 

 

 

(As you can see from the above posts, the Puranas are important enough to be mentioned in the original Vedas).

 

[kaisersose]

 

From your previous post it almost sounded like you knew what you were talking about.

Sorry to disappoint.

 

 

 

(As you can see from the above posts, the Puranas are important enough to be mentioned in the original Vedas).

 

Thanks Kyros,

 

Where did I say the Puranas are not important?

 

All I said was the the three vedas have a different set of rules in terms of audience, eligibility and procedures for study and this set of vedas is what Baladeva is talking about.

 

Note that I have left out the Atharvana which is the fourth Veda.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

[Kyros]

Also, it questions me. Srila Madvha is said to use verses from the Puranas. Why can he do it, but we can't?

[kaisersose]

 

Also, it questions me. Srila Madvha is said to use verses from the Puranas. Why can he do it, but we can't?

 

Who said you cannot?

 

But here is the general practice common to all non-Gaudiya traditions.

 

The Vedas & the Brahma Sutras are self sufficient authorities [Tier1]. The Puranas and Itihasas & other Smriti are authority when they do not contradict Tier1 scriptures.

 

The heated discussions you see arises because the Gaudiyas broke the norm and disregarded tier1 scriptures. But not fully...they quote from them sometimes and then ignore them all other times.

 

You can understand how such an inconsistency can create problems on a general discussion forum.

 

Cheers

[Kyros]

 

 

Bhagavad Gita 3.5

 

 

 

na hi kaścit kṣaṇam api

jātu tiṣṭhaty akarma-kṛt

kāryate hy avaśaḥ karma

sarvaḥ prakṛti-jair guṇaiḥ

 

 

 

 

 

Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment.

 

 

 

Bhagavad Gita 18.41

 

 

 

brāhmaṇa-kṣatriya-viśāḿ

śūdrāṇāḿ ca parantapa

karmāṇi pravibhaktāni

svabhāva-prabhavair guṇaiḥ

Brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas, vaiśyas and śūdras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy.

Also, where does it say that the "3" Vedas are Tier 1?

 

The Supreme Lord himself is stating that a brahmana is based on qualities, not birth.