Sri Baladeva Vidyabhushana (Gaudiya Vaishnava): sudras are not allowed to study Vedas

[kaisersose]

 

Also, where does it say that the "3" Vedas are Tier 1?

 

 

 

 

 

They are accorded Tier1 status as they were not authored. Where does it say they are not authored? The Samhitas do not specify an author the Purva Mimamsa school, has laid out details on why the Vedas are unauthored and this justification is borrowed by Vedanta schools.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Supreme Lord himself is stating that a brahmana is based on qualities, not birth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does he? I do not see that in the two verses you posted. The second verse says characterestics are divided by varna and everyone agrees with that. It says nothing about "varna by birth" nor "varna out of birth" .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

[Kyros]

 

They are accorded Tier1 status as they were not authored. Where does it say they are not authored? The Samhitas do not specify an author the Purva Mimamsa school, has laid out details on why the Vedas are unauthored and this justification is borrowed by Vedanta schools.

 

Shukla Yajur Veda, Madhyandina-sruti, Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10

 

 

asya mahato bhutasya nihsvasitam etad yad rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama

vedo’tharvangirasa itihasah puranam ityadina

 

 

 

 

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."

Also,

 

Mahabharata (Adi Parva 1.267)

 

itihasa puranabhyam vedam samupabrmhayet

 

" One must complement one’s study of the Vedas with the Itihasas and the Puranas."

 

 

 

(All the scriptures come from the Supreme Lord, and it is stated above that the study of the Vedas must be complimented with the Itihasas and Puranas. Regardless of what you want to believe. The Puranas are just as good as "Tier 1" scriptures.)

 

 

 

Does he? I do not see that in the two verses you posted. The second verse says characterestics are divided by varna and everyone agrees with that. It says nothing about "varna by birth" nor "varna out of birth."

 

Cheers

 

 

How could you miss the word "quality" in the sentences. I also included the sanskrit verses. Guna means quality. If Lord Krishna meant that it was based on birth, He would've used the word janma."

[gHari]

Why do you bother with all this, Raghu? Is it some concern to save the unfortunate Gaudiyas? You could write every word in every language permuted in every sequence, and still that infinity of thoughts could never have any effect on my understanding. Perhaps it would be more productive for you to just do whatever it is you do; time keeps marching on.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Raghu,

 

You may be polarized on the mental plane by tendency (intellectual class), but the until you are relieved of the ignorant presumption that a person born in a sudra family is necessarily unqualified to be trained by a brahmana when his true inner nature is discovered as a mismatch for his birth circumstances, then perhaps you should just be a good sudra, stop reading the vedas, and take up some menial service under the direction of a broad-minded Madhva of Gaudiya Vaisnava Brahmana until you gain enough humility to throw you from your high horse and get with the program. Then we could start you on Bhagavad Gita and let your intellectual qualities flourish unbound by the ropes of your sanctimony.

 

Good answer!

 

RCB

[bhaktatraveler]

 

 

That is a candid admission. Can we agree then, that just as Prabhupada did something that Baladeva would never have sanctioned , it is also ok for Hridayananda to bless same sex couples?

It is a different time after all, with different circumstances and just as Prabhupada deviated from tradition for this reason, Hridayananda should by the exact same logic, be able to do the same?

Cheers

 

This cheater in the dress of guru isn't an empowered acarya and there by he can not make policy that comes directly from Krsna. He must stay in line with his Guru, he is not guru himself. Never was and no amount of dummy followers will change that.

 

RCB

[Amlesh]

I remember Chanakya Pandita who trained a Son of a Sudra to make him the future King of Magadha.

The Brahmana was indeed a learned Brahmana.

[Amlesh]

I guess no one has an eye like that Brahmana, that's why I'm not too much into the easy-going Brahmana Transformation by the Iskonite and I'm not too much also with the narrow thinking of Varna is decided by the parent we are born.

[chandu_69]

Excellent posts, kyros.

 

Trolls like kaiserose keep posting nonsense whatever amount of evidence you provide.

[tackleberry]

 

This cheater in the dress of guru isn't an empowered acarya and there by he can not make policy that comes directly from Krsna. He must stay in line with his Guru, he is not guru himself. Never was and no amount of dummy followers will change that.

 

RCB

 

What's the proof that Prabhupad was an empowered acharya? Since he deviated from tradition, you ought to assume that he too was a cheater.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

What's the proof that Prabhupad was an empowered acharya? Since he deviated from tradition, you ought to assume that he too was a cheater.

If I would have said that I would have gotten banned from the forum.

 

There are many "traditions" in India that deserve to be rejected.

 

In India's long history many "traditions" have been created, but that doesn't make them right.

 

In my family we have a tradition of having Pizza on Friday night.

 

If my kids break this family tradition does that make them evil?

 

Many traditions in India falsely represent themselves as spiritual or Vedic when in fact they are many times just bigoted, racist, prejudiced practices of pseudo-religionists who make there living as professional Hindu priests.

 

Some of those traditions are no more spiritual than watching the Superbowl every year with the friends and family.

(which I don't do)

 

But, it is an American tradition.

 

I guess it is evil to reject the tradition.

 

In some aboriginal tribes it is tradition to take the old grandfather out and hunt him down in the forest, kill him and eat him.

 

Sometimes tradition is just a very stupid thing.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

What's the proof that Prabhupad was an empowered acharya? Since he deviated from tradition, you ought to assume that he too was a cheater.

 

He introduced me to Krsna and I have seen Him face to face. Good enough for me! Judge by the result!

 

What do I care about tradition? Nothing! What do I know about tradition? Nothing! I know what my Guru has said. He did not give any disciple authority to initiate inside of ISKCON. Bas! If they do? Cheater!

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[bhaktatraveler]

 

What's the proof that Prabhupad was an empowered acharya? Since he deviated from tradition, you ought to assume that he too was a cheater.

First off where are your translations from? And an ISKCON officially approved anything means nothing on the street, just in the cult!

 

What does anyone know about varna? Or vedic? What ever he has received from his guru! That is considering he has no excess baggage from his previous life. In this regard I do not! Most that actually accept Prabhupada are of various inclinations, hence varna and asrama division.

 

We have as followers of Srila Prabhupada received definitions and explanation that he take as vedic scriptures. This is as much as we know. Prabhupada has said that we should divide the society into varna and asrama, four + four, the society of 8. Prabhupada has given the definition of those divisions. One of those varnas is sudra, but he is never to be considered like a mundane sudra. He is Vaisnava first and foremost! Everything he will get! If he follows the rules and regulations of his varna, that includes samskaras.

 

Prabhupada said previously the thinking was that only brahmana could get perfection. With the Daivi Varnasrama Dharma division and execution, ALL varnas are spiritually equal. This is Srila Prabhupada's declaration for ISKCON, you do as you like.

 

Once it is determined that a person is a particular varna he should be left to his work with no other encumbrance from the other varnas to forcibly improve. It can not be done, not by force. Why bother, just for your own ego? Leave him to him work for Krsna.

 

We are Vaisnavas that perform our work in varna and asrama general divisions, with Krsna as central recipient. As explained in Bhagavad Gita, Who gives a ... who is in what varna? Just outsiders!!!! Prabhupada told us that do to the rejection of the sudra class in India, those rejected then sought shelter in Islam, people like you drove them away.

 

As far as sudras studying scriptures? Hell, yes as much as he is capable, this is the Kali yuga, we are not here to follow perfect varna and asrama as applies to the Satya yuga. No, only as explained by our Guru!

 

What ever the previous acaryas have written is amalgamated in the over all works of Srila Prabhupada. Delivering to us a completed plan for a house that the whole 10k yr golden age can live in. His complete vani constitutes, what I like to think, as the last word on of the consummate purport on all the predecessor acaryas. But that is me and mine, you do as you like, our sudra's will be literate for the purpose of reading the books of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Get the pure purports, trust no imitation explanations. Read the books.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[andy108]

 

First off where are your translations from? And an ISKCON officially approved anything means nothing on the street, just in the cult!

 

What does anyone know about varna? Or vedic? What ever he has received from his guru! That is considering he has no excess baggage from his previous life. In this regard I do not! Most that actually accept Prabhupada are of various inclinations, hence varna and asrama division.

 

We have as followers of Srila Prabhupada received definitions and explanation that he take as vedic scriptures. This is as much as we know. Prabhupada has said that we should divide the society into varna and asrama, four + four, the society of 8. Prabhupada has given the definition of those divisions. One of those varnas is sudra, but he is never to be considered like a mundane sudra. He is Vaisnava first and foremost! Everything he will get! If he follows the rules and regulations of his varna, that includes samskaras.

 

Prabhupada said previously the thinking was that only brahmana could get perfection. With the Daivi Varnasrama Dharma division and execution, ALL varnas are spiritually equal. This is Srila Prabhupada's declaration for ISKCON, you do as you like.

 

Once it is determined that a person is a particular varna he should be left to his work with no other encumbrance from the other varnas to forcibly improve. It can not be done, not by force. Why bother, just for your own ego? Leave him to him work for Krsna.

 

We are Vaisnavas that perform our work in varna and asrama general divisions, with Krsna as central recipient. As explained in Bhagavad Gita, Who gives a .. who is in what varna? Just outsiders!!!! Prabhupada told us that do to the rejection of the sudra class in India, those rejected then sought shelter in Islam, people like you drove them away.

 

As far as sudras studying scriptures? Hell, yes as much as he is capable, this is the Kali yuga, we are not here to follow perfect varna and asrama as applies to the Satya yuga. No, only as explained by our Guru!

 

What ever the previous acaryas have written is amalgamated in the over all works of Srila Prabhupada. Delivering to us a completed plan for a house that the whole 10k yr golden age can live in. His complete vani constitutes, what I like to think, as the last word on of the consummate purport on all the predecessor acaryas. But that is me and mine, you do as you like, our sudra's will be literate for the purpose of reading the books of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Get the pure purports, trust no imitation explanations. Read the books.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

Bravo! Well spoken.

 

I am already catching a whiff of burning hair, as the caste brahmanas are feverishly burning with envy as they imagine a lowly sudra being allowed by the Gaudiyas to put their grubby hands upon a sacred book, and desecrate it with their lowly glance.

 

Jihad! Jihad against the blashpheming Gaudiyas who would seek to unseat the high and holy from their ivory perch as guardians of the truth!

[Justin]

 

We are Vaisnavas that perform our work in varna and asrama general divisions, with Krsna as central recipient. As explained in Bhagavad Gita, Who gives a .. who is in what varna? Just outsiders!!!! Prabhupada told us that do to the rejection of the sudra class in India, those rejected then sought shelter in Islam, people like you drove them away.

Hey, tell the muslims they are shudras and you will get their version of your varna. Believe me it will not be anything close to the worst nightmare

 

 

As far as sudras studying scriptures? Hell, yes as much as he is capable, this is the Kali yuga, we are not here to follow perfect varna and asrama as applies to the Satya yuga. No, only as explained by our Guru!

Not according to your own Baladeva. Shudras are exempt from studying scriptures. Now Prabhupada has digressed from his own sampradaya!?

[Beggar]

 

Hey, tell the muslims they are shudras and you will get their version of your varna. Believe me it will not be anything close to the worst nightmare

 

Not according to your own Baladeva. Shudras are exempt from studying scriptures. Now Prabhupada has digressed from his own sampradaya!?

 

You are talking oranges and apples. What the Gaudiyas are saying is within their definitions. You are using different definitions. What Prabhupada is saying is that a Vaisnava is higher than a brahmana, but still his tendencies in work may still appear to be like that of a vaishya or sudra. But he is a Vaisnava so not an ordinary vaisya or sudra. Then what Vedic texts will he read? Not the four Vedas, but the cream of all Vedic literature, the Srimad Bhagavatam. An ordinary sudra will never have any interest in such a thing because he is just that, an ordinary sudra. You can agree or disagree but then what is your position? If this is true and you are really a 'Justin', then you are outside the system of varnasrama, completely, with far less of a standing than even an ordinary sudra. How could you have any opinion on anything Vedic or even closely related? This is what would be forbidden.

Therefore it is your opinion or even your attempt at an opinion on this subject which is from the Vedic standpoint is completely out of bounds.

[theist]

 

You are talking oranges and apples. What the Gaudiyas are saying is within their definitions. You are using different definitions. What Prabhupada is saying is that a Vaisnava is higher than a brahmana, but still his tendencies in work may still appear to be like that of a vaishya or sudra. But he is a Vaisnava so not an ordinary vaisya or sudra. Then what Vedic texts will he read? Not the four Vedas, but the cream of all Vedic literature, the Srimad Bhagavatam. An ordinary sudra will never have any interest in such a thing because he is just that, an ordinary sudra. You can agree or disagree but then what is your position? If this is true and you are really a 'Justin', then you are outside the system of varnasrama, completely, with far less of a standing than even an ordinary sudra. How could you have any opinion on anything Vedic or even closely related? This is what would be forbidden.

Therefore it is your opinion or even your attempt at an opinion on this subject which is from the Vedic standpoint is completely out of bounds.

 

 

Ha ha! Checkmate! Butt kicked! Mouth shut!

[Justin]

 

Ha ha! Checkmate! Butt kicked! Mouth shut!

yeah my mouth is shut. Shut because beggar swamin's answer did make some sense. If you insist I will comment here. Do you want me to? Well here it is. The question was why Prabhupada digressed from Baladeva. beggar swamin said Gaudiyas are within their definition. That is the right answer! They are within their bounds. Digressions are their thing. A tradition. That is the final answer.

beggar swamin, I am honoured by your presence.

[raghu]

 

If I would have said that I would have gotten banned from the forum.

 

There are many "traditions" in India that deserve to be rejected.

 

In India's long history many "traditions" have been created, but that doesn't make them right.

 

Many traditions in India falsely represent themselves as spiritual or Vedic when in fact they are many times just bigoted, racist, prejudiced practices of pseudo-religionists who make there living as professional Hindu priests.

 

Some of those traditions are no more spiritual than watching the Superbowl every year with the friends and family.

 

Sometimes tradition is just a very stupid thing.

Sonic Yogi,

 

I understand the point that you are making. Obviously you find Indian traditions to be appalling and unacceptable. You would hardly be the first.

 

To me, it is ironic to the extreme that some people who lived their lives consuming dead animals have become emboldened to to the point that they criticize one of the oldest civilizations on Earth. And that too while claiming to be followers of "Vedic culture." If you truly live the spiritual ideals which you profess to believe in, wouldn't you have a certain humility about your background that would preclude you from judging traditions you obviously do not understand?

 

When the British first arrived in India, they also spoke of us just as you did here. Many people come to India thinking that they can "civilize" the "savages." I am certainly not going to try in vain to convince you that my culture deserves respect equal to any other culture. When even iskcon devotees who claim to believe so much in Vedic culture, can be so hostile to Vedic culture, then what hope is there for anyone else?

 

I also have certain reservations about American culture. Would you like to hear them? Here they are:

• I object to unqualified individuals becoming gurus, then falling down and causing chaos for thousands of people who were innocent enough to follow them.
  
• I object to ignorant people using evasive and dishonest tactics to avoid confronting a corrupt philosophy that puts the unqualified gurus in the position to do harm in the first place.
  
• I object to hypocrites who claim to believe in a scripture, and then turn around and refuse to accept the point of view described in those same scriptures (i.e. bhagavad-gItA)
  
• I object to hypocrites who claim to follow a guru-parampara and then openly disagree with the gurus in that paramparA (like the way you all disagree with Baladeva)
  
• I object to hypocrites who feel that they have divine sanction to question everyone else's beliefs, but when their beliefs are questioned, they react with indignation.
  
• I object to hypocrites who claim to believe in practicing Vaishnava philosophy unchanged, and then when no one is looking, they introduce all sorts of changes (i.e. "Jesus is a pure devotee" and similar deviations)
  
• I object to the argumentative nature I see in iskcon wherein simple, reasonable, and pointed questions are met with hostility and scorn, but never answers to the questions
  
• I object to children being physically and sexually assaulted in so-called "gurukulas"
  
• I object to > 55% divorce rate in iskcon. Where is your so-called "Vedic culture?"
  
• I object to so-called "devotees" who cannot control their senses or even the urge to speak (or even type) nevertheless criticizing Vaishnavas for the sole reason that the latter believe in something that the former refuse to understand.

It's strange, but when I read Gaudiya Vaishnava books, I at least get the impression that there are some interesting beliefs there. But when I see Gaudiya Vaishnavism in practice (i.e. people like you, Andy, Theist, Ghari), all I see are a bunch of ignorant bullies. How can there be such stark discrepancy between "Gaudiya Vaishnavism: the beliefs" and "Gaudiya Vaishnavism: the reality?"

[sambya]

 

To me, it is ironic to the extreme that some people who lived their lives consuming dead animals have become emboldened to to the point that they criticize one of the oldest civilizations on Earth. And that too while claiming to be followers of "Vedic culture."

 

 

I object to hypocrites who feel that they have divine sanction to question everyone else's beliefs, but when their beliefs are questioned, they react with indignation.

 

It's strange, but when I read Gaudiya Vaishnava books, I at least get the impression that there are some interesting beliefs there. But when I see Gaudiya Vaishnavism in practice (i.e. people like you, Andy, Theist, Ghari), all I see are a bunch of ignorant bullies. How can there be such stark discrepancy between "Gaudiya Vaishnavism: the beliefs" and "Gaudiya Vaishnavism: the reality?"

 

well said.................good

 

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Hey, tell the muslims they are shudras and you will get their version of your varna. Believe me it will not be anything close to the worst nightmare

 

Not according to your own Baladeva. Shudras are exempt from studying scriptures. Now Prabhupada has digressed from his own sampradaya!?

 

I have prerached to muslims, pathans in the Kyber/NWFP in fact. Had no problem. lived with them for almost a yr. I have preached the same conclusions of DVD in the deep south to blacks, also with no problems.

 

Your a shrill that is not here to hear. Did you also know that we do not chant 100k names a day, but only 25k. If you need help to find fault, just ask.

 

No one here is asking you to join! So how my Guru conducts his mission is not of your concern. Kind of like a barking dog whom is not part of the caravan.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Sonic Yogi,

I also have certain reservations about American culture. Would you like to hear them? Here they are:

• I object to unqualified individuals becoming gurus, then falling down and causing chaos for thousands of people who were innocent enough to follow them.
  
• I object to ignorant people using evasive and dishonest tactics to avoid confronting a corrupt philosophy that puts the unqualified gurus in the position to do harm in the first place.
  
• I object to hypocrites who claim to believe in a scripture, and then turn around and refuse to accept the point of view described in those same scriptures (i.e. bhagavad-gItA)
  
• I object to hypocrites who claim to follow a guru-parampara and then openly disagree with the gurus in that paramparA (like the way you all disagree with Baladeva)
  
• I object to hypocrites who feel that they have divine sanction to question everyone else's beliefs, but when their beliefs are questioned, they react with indignation.
  
• I object to hypocrites who claim to believe in practicing Vaishnava philosophy unchanged, and then when no one is looking, they introduce all sorts of changes (i.e. "Jesus is a pure devotee" and similar deviations)
  
• I object to the argumentative nature I see in iskcon wherein simple, reasonable, and pointed questions are met with hostility and scorn, but never answers to the questions
  
• I object to children being physically and sexually assaulted in so-called "gurukulas"
  
• I object to > 55% divorce rate in iskcon. Where is your so-called "Vedic culture?"
  
• I object to so-called "devotees" who cannot control their senses or even the urge to speak (or even type) nevertheless criticizing Vaishnavas for the sole reason that the latter believe in something that the former refuse to understand.

 

So?

Who cares what you think?

I certainly don't.

Write a letter to your congressman or something.

 

I am not the clerk of the whiners department.

 

Your opinion means nothing.

 

Does the barking of a dog stop the caravan from passing?

 

All us Hare Krishnas are riding our camels right on by you and your pack of barking dog caste brahmins.

 

 

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Sonic Yogi,

 

I understand the point that you are making. Obviously you find Indian traditions to be appalling and unacceptable. You would hardly be the first.

 

Raghu if you are so concerned about contributing to the betterment of mankind then instead of fault-finding the Hare Krishna people maybe you should become a caste brahmin activist and work to improve and reform the caste brahmin culture of India?

Caste brahmins in India have been degraded to a very low level.

 

Maybe you should work on helping caste brahmins become actual brahmins instead of trying to discredit and demean western devotees who have adopted the worship of Lord Krishna?

 

Get your own caste brahmin house in order before you go slinging mud at the Hare Krishna sect.

 

When you and all your caste brahmins have actually become more than sudras wearing a thread that they got without qualification, then you can worry about cleaning house of all the Hare Krishna dirt in the world.

 

Until then, you are really just a fraud.

 

If you were a brahmin studying the Vedas you certainly wouldn't be here in the forum 12 hours a day bashing the Hare Krishna people.

 

In fact, you are probably not even a Hindu or a caste brahmin but some irate Hare Krishna reject that just wants to taunt the Hare Krishna people by acting the role of some caste brahmin showing the flaws in the Gaudiya parampara.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

 

It's strange, but when I read Gaudiya Vaishnava books, I at least get the impression that there are some interesting beliefs there. But when I see Gaudiya Vaishnavism in practice (i.e. people like you, Andy, Theist, Ghari), all I see are a bunch of ignorant bullies. How can there be such stark discrepancy between "Gaudiya Vaishnavism: the beliefs" and "Gaudiya Vaishnavism: the reality?"

 

Actually you have never 'seen' any of us in action, that post on this forum. It is just a forum, nothing more. Have a life off the key board. The devotees on this forum did have life in ISKCON, but you are to late(by 30 yrs in some cases) to know them as they were. We are old men now and for the most part were never in agreement with your contentions about IS-A-CON INC anyway.

I do not know you! Your just TV to me. As for your claimed culture? Hello!!!! It's not there any more! Wake up!!! I've lived with your people, in India and Pakistan. It's hardly even a perverted reflection of vedic culture, just like pressent day ISKCON INC. What illusion!

 

Read Bhagavad Gita by Srila Prabhupada, then you can see where we come from. If you read outside of the Gaudiya sect then try to impose on us what do you think will be the results?

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[Nrsinghadev]

Dandavat Pranam,

 

The disputed comment of Srila Baladeva Vidyabhushana’s Govinda Bhasya – Sri Vedanta Sutra is found in adhikarana 8. Let us review sutras 37 and 38 of that chapter:

 

 

Adhikarana 8

 

Sutra 37

 

(This is so) also because care is taken to determine that (a student) is not (a sudra)

 

Purport by Baladeva Vidyabhushana

 

“In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.4.4-5) (when asked about his caste, Jabali said (I don’t know into what caste I was born) These truthful words convinced the sage Gautama that Jabala was not a sudra. Gautama then said (One who is not a brahmana cannot speak in this way) O gentle one, please bring the sacred fuel and I shall initiate you as a brahmana. You did not deviate from the truth.) This endeavour by the guru Gautama demonstrates that sudras are not eligible to receive the samskaras.”

 

Sutra 38

 

“(A sudra is a beast. He is a crematorium. For this reason he should not be taught the Vedas.)”

“(A sudra is a big beast. He cannot perform the Vedic sacrifices)”

 

“Some souls such as Vidura and others, although born as sudras, become elevated by their attainment of perfect transcendental knowledge. By hearing and understanding the Puranas and other transcendental literatures, sudras and other can become liberated. The only real classes of higher and lower among men are determined by the final result of their lives.”

 

In other words, had the critiquing party actually properly understood the purports of Sri Vidyahbushana’s bhasya, they would have spared themselves the embarrassment of toting the words of Baladeva Vidyabhushana and presenting them as evidence for their hopeless case, as in fact his words actually prove the proper conclusion; namely that one’s qualities determines one’s class, not ones birth. Checking the purport of sutra 37 with sutra 38 we can conclude that a true sudra is one who actually possesses the qualities of a sudra, not that a true sudra is one who is born into a family of sudras. Jabala's reply to Gautama would in those days have been considered to be quite embarrassing, yet by dint of his honest answer Gautama could determine his caste (in other words, not by his birth). When we look for reference in the scriptures what qualities a brahmana possesses we can determine who is a brahmana or not. If that wasn’t enough, Baladeva Vidyabhushana’s guru, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura did not himself write a bhasya on Vedanta as he understood that the Srimad Bhagavatam was the natural commentary to the Vedanta. That automatically means he accepted the truth of this verse:

 

 

yasya yal lakṣaṇaḿ proktaḿ

puḿso varṇābhivyañjakam

yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta

tat tenaiva vinirdiśet

 

“If one shows the symptoms of being a brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra, as described above, even if he has appeared in a different class, he should be accepted according to those symptoms of classification.”

(SB.7.11.35)

Thus, since Srila Vishvanatha Cakravarti Thakur accepted this fact, what to speak of his disciple Srila Baladeva Vidyabhushana?

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in his Jaiva Dharma(ch.6.p.131) mentions: “Pure Vaishnavas can study the Vedas no matter what caste they are born into, and it is practically observed that they do so.”

 

Why quote this text, since it is not pramana? Presenting these words in relation to sutra 38, we can conclude that an actual Sudra is simply unable to study the Vedas as a result of his nature, whereas practical experience shows us that there are those who, though born even outside of the four varnas, what to speak of sudra level, have had and still have the capacity to study the Vedas. Therefore, even though born as mlecchas, by their inherent qualities and capacity to study the Vedas they have proven themselves to be no mlecchas.

Who is an actual brahmana can simply be observed by the definition given in Shastra, it is not a definition that cannot be determined by any outside source.

 

Often the objection is then given, “Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami had given so many unqualified people the Brahmana initiation, so that means that he couldn’t detect the qualities of a true Brahmana. Hence your statement that the qualities of a brahmana can be observed and proven by an outside source have been proven false.”

 

To this we can say:

 

The motivations of a pure devotee are hard to fathom, especially for non-devotees. Thus they will be unable to understand why Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami gave brahmana initiation to unqualified persons. This question was also once posed to Bhaktivedanta Swami’s gurudeva, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, who answered something along the line of: “At least they will have had this purifying impression of pious life, for however long it lasted, that will be to their eternal benefit.”

The pure devotee always thinks of how he can really benefit the fallen souls of this world. Building hospitals is a very good and pious act, but it does not deliver us from this samsara, whereas the pious impressions, obtained among other things by following the brahmana standard, given to us by these benevolent masters are incomparably great and to our eternal benefit.

 

In other words, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj knew very well that he was giving brahmana initiation to some unqualified persons, yet he still gave the initiations just as his spiritual master before him had done.

But Bhaktivedanta Swami also had other reasons. He had a mission to fulfill. That mission could not wait until all qualified persons had gathered at his lotus feet. He wanted to imbue the whole world with Krishna bhakti. And he succeeded. He arrived in the U.S.A with only a few rupees and in a short time he managed to successfully establish a world-wide organization, a foundation and shelter for sincere spiritual seekers world-wide, and the maha mantra resounded everywhere, as predicted by Mahaprabhu and as per the desire of his gurudeva. Such a large scale succesful operation inevitably attracts some crows who enter with their personal agendas. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj was well aware of this, as he endearingly told his intimate friend Srila Narayan Maharaj before his divine departure: "I have caught so many monkeys in my net, they are expert in quarreling among themselves like that. They are still very young and untrained. I request that you take care of them after my departure."

It is undeniable that there have been some horrible scandals and guru downfalls within the organization, but in light of the earlier reasons mentioned, they are but spots on the sun. Besides, these 'guru downfalls' show that eventually those devotees who have overzealously moved ahead of themselves will automatically be positioned in their correct adikhara. There is no real loss here. (btw, I’m not an congregational member of ISKCON, so I’m no 'ISKCON apologist')

 

It should be noted that for their own benefit, a devotee who has not attained the topmost stage should not focus on the spots of the sun. Not out of sheer negligence or naïve refusal to see wrongdoings, but in light of the following verse of the Bhagavad Gita(9.30):

 

 

“Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered to be a sadhu because he is properly situated in his determination.”

This instruction for us means that we should leave the criticism and reproaching to the pure devotee, the bona fide guru, as any other person is unqualified to criticize and correct another devotee, however faulty his actions may be. Should there be anything wrong or improper, the devotee should report this to his guru, not start faultfinding and criticizing the wrong-doers, as that is destructive to one’s own bhakti. The pure devotee will not incur any repercussions, due to being situated on the perfect platform, but the devotee on any other level will, that is why we should simply praise their good deeds. In my opinion, ALL ISKCON pioneers should be praised for their endeavours in helping Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami. If I start criticizing them for their shortcomings, that will be to my detriment only.

 

Right, back to the topic at hand:

 

 

 

(B.G.4.13)

cātur-varṇyaḿ

mayā sṛṣṭaḿ

guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

tasya kartāram api māḿ

viddhy akartāram avyayam

 

“The four divisions of human society were created by Me, in terms of their respective qualities and karma, and although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the doer and non-doer, being unchangeable.”

Especially note how the verse says guna(quality) and not janma(birth). So it may be that one has all the qualities of a brahmana, but due to his karma he is born into a family of mlecchas. There is no contradiction in this. Haridas Thakura, who is Brahmaji, even deliberately took birth in a muslim family, so that he in all his pride would not make the same mistake again of committing an offense to the lotus feet of the Lord. So in this way, an indication is given that being born in a brahmana family can even be dangerous, as pride of caste may overtake and ruin any spiritual inclination.

Another example is given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Haridas Thakura. Even if you don’t accept Mahaprabhu as God, and for argument’s sake look at both personalities from a mundane perspective, He, being born in a brahmana family held in the highest regard the 'yavana' muslim Haridas Thakura, and even personally carried his dead body in His arms and put the body of the 'untouchable' muslim under the sand on the beach of Puri. Even though they both knew who they really were, Mahaprabhu has shown by this pastime that it is a person's qualities that determine his caste, not his birth.

 

The problem with most criticism against Gaudiya Vaishnavism is often found in the opposing party’s failure to recognize the divinity of Mahaprabhu as an bona fide Avatara of the Supreme Lord. This failure invitably leads to Vaishnava Aparadha and that in turn leads to a hellish mentality and spiritual death.

 

Now Skanda Purana mentions, “kalau sudra sambhavah”:

 

“In Kali Yuga, everyone is born a sudra.”

 

In other words in Kali Yuga everyone is to be deemed unqualified in terms of birth. However, by dint of sadhu sanga and the chanting of holy name Maha Mantra, one can rise above one’s unfortunate position and become a qualified Vaishnava, what to speak of brahmana, which is of lower status. If one is a Vaishnava then automatically one is a brahmana, because all the qualities of a true brahmana are inherent in the true Vaishnava.

 

This is not a 'Gaudiya concoction' as it is corroborated in S.B. 7.9.10:

 

 

iprād dvi-ṣaḍ-guṇa-yutād aravinda-nābha-

pādāravinda-vimukhāt śvapacaḿ variṣṭham

manye tad-arpita-mano-vacanehitārtha-

prāṇaḿ punāti sa kulaḿ na tu bhūrimānaḥ

 

“A bhakta who has taken birth in a family of dog-eaters, but who has dedicated his mind, words, activities and wealth to the lotus feet of the Lord, is superior to a brahmana endowed with all twelve brahminical qualities, but who is diverted from the lotus feet of Sri Padmanabha. Such a bhakta, although of lowly birth, can purify himself and his entire family, whereas the brahmana who is filled with pride cannot even purify himself.”

Another objection can be made after contemplating these verses, and notably to the verse quoted above:

 

“If the Vaishnava is superior to the brahmana, and the brahmana initiation is actually unnecessary for chanting the maha mantra, then why do Gaudiya Vaishnavas even bother with it?”

 

The first answer has already been given earlier; to create pious impressions on the jiva soul.

The second answer is that there are two paths in bhakti yoga: Raganuga bhakti and Vaidhi bhakti. Raganuga bhakti means there is spontaneous devotion. This means the rare person who is eligible for this path does not have to undergo these brahminical samskaras, nor adhere to any specific rules and regulations. Most things he will follow automatically, out of taste.

 

However, generally most people are not eligible for this path of bhakti, and that means they are qualified to follow vaidhi bhakti. That entails that they have to perform bhakti according to Vedic injunctions. In this way, becoming an initiated brahmana means it is a helpful and necessary tool on their path of bhakti. By becoming a twice-born brahmana, it becomes possible for the aspirant to perform deity worship, which is a very helpful means to learn how to perform service to the Supreme Lord. In this way the upanayana samskara is very helpful for the progress of the vaidhi bhakta

Furthermore he can be given the pancha samskara which is confirmed to stimulate one's endeavours on the path of bhakti. The following quote is mentioned in Padma Purana and quoted from the book, “Of love and separation”, by Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaj:

 

 

Tapah pundras tatha nama

Mantro yagas ca pancamah

Ami hi panca-samskarah

Paramaikanta-hetavah

 

“The five purifying processes that lead to single-minded devotion are: (1) tapa, branding with the symbols of Vishnu (Gaudiya Vaishnavas do not practice this), (2) pundra, the tilak marking appropriate to the disciplic line, (3) nama, or a name symbolizing the disciple’s relationship to Krishna (4) the mantra, and (5) yaga, or sacrifice for the sake of Vishnu.”

 

In his holy treatise Prameya-ratnavali, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhushana has defined the word yaga in the above verse as deity worship. Many of Mahaprabhu’s associates, though being of other castes (such as vaidya, karana or kayastha), wore the sacred thread after initiation and took brahmin disciples.

 

The scripture says that through initiation, one becomes twice-born or, in other words, a brahmin (diksha-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrnam). This applies to everyone. Srila Prabhupada held this statement as the foundation of the daiva-varnasrama system. Every human being has a right to engage in devotion (bhaktau nr-matrasyadhikarita). Therefore it is said,

 

Candalo’pi dvija-sresthah

Hari-bhakti-parayanah

Hari-bhakti-vihinas ca

Dvijo’pi svapacadhamah

 

“An outcaste is the best of the twice-born if he is devoted to Lord Hari. On the other hand, one who has no devotion is worse than an outcaste, even if born as a brahmin.”

Hare Krishna