Krishna unavailable to non-Brahmanas?

[kaisersose]

Someone please enlighten me.

 

Why are the Hare Krishnas obsessing about the varna-system? Why is it important for them to become Brahmanas?

 

I fail to get it. Since the Hare Krishna's goal is Krishna, why this deep-seeded need to become a Brahmana? I don't see the link.

 

It looks like they believe only Brahmanas are eligible for Krishna, which I find to be a very weird position for an international organization, not to mention lack of scriptural support for such a position.

 

Cheers

[andy108]

 

Someone please enlighten me.

 

Why are the Hare Krishnas obsessing about the varna-system? Why is it important for them to become Brahmanas?

 

I fail to get it. Since the Hare Krishna's goal is Krishna, why this deep-seeded need to become a Brahmana? I don't see the link.

 

It looks like they believe only Brahmanas are eligible for Krishna, which I find to be a very weird position for an international organization, not to mention lack of scriptural support for such a position.

 

Cheers

 

Actually, the obsession with Varna is displayed by those who insist that a soul's varna must exclusively be determined by the qualities of the person who's womb they squirt from.

 

All the questions, and assumptions you express above could be answered simply by reading the Bhagavad Gita As it Is, 1972 Macmillan edition. Written by the Founder-Acarya of the "Hare Krsnas" HDG AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, this explains everything about the Basic Gaudiya philosophy, and is expanded in greater depth in his exposition of the First 2 cantos of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

From there, you can compare the knowledge you will gain with whatever is being expressed by anyone claiming to represent that method of becoming a devotional servant of Sri Hari.

 

As part of the sadhana given by the Swami, one is to act within his Varna and Asrama and do his material duty and enjoy his material senses under the restrictions of the rules and regulations commensurate with that varna and asrama, while gradually adding more purely spiritual/transcendental activities of direct devotional service, thus a two pronged approach to gradually purifying material attachments while gradually increasing attachment to the 9 processes of direct spiritual devotional service. In a nutshell.

 

His disciples are not obsessed, but compelled, to correct the myth that a person's varna is determined by birth only, as those adhering to such dogma will inevitably prevent them from being able to help someone align with their natural tendencies and keep them ignorantly engaged in a way they are materially unqualified for, which leads to the inability to develop the equanimity and dispassion required for spiritual qualities to make inroads into that person's life.

[bhaktajan]

The "Varna"-system?

"Varna" is a catagory of 'work', ergo, 'worker' into the bargin.

Wall street, landlords, the Tax-man and school & Uni institutions all cater and subsist on: varni(s) doing their alloted work.

NOW GET BACK TO WORK. [or finish that cross-word puzzle --if you can]

[raghu]

 

Someone please enlighten me.

 

Why are the Hare Krishnas obsessing about the varna-system? Why is it important for them to become Brahmanas?

 

I fail to get it. Since the Hare Krishna's goal is Krishna, why this deep-seeded need to become a Brahmana? I don't see the link.

 

It looks like they believe only Brahmanas are eligible for Krishna, which I find to be a very weird position for an international organization, not to mention lack of scriptural support for such a position.

 

Cheers

 

I second these questions. Theist claims that all that is necessary in this age is to teach some cleanliness and some bhakti. So what is the necessity of giving unqualified people brahmin initiations?

[kaisersose]

Is it just me or does everyone notice a paradox here?

 

1) The Hare Krishnas make a big case for how Brahmanas are not by birth and how they can identify and intiate people into Brahmana status. All this leads one to understand that HKs attach a lot of importance to being a Brahmana, most likely thinking one has to be a Brahmana to attain Krishna or at least being a Brahmana gives them an extra edge.

 

2) When confirmation is sought, they deny (1) saying it is some narrow minded Indian Brahmins who take the position that Krishna is only available to Brahmanas (no evidence has been offered yet).

 

So what is your final position? Seems to me like you folks are confused as usual.

 

if you believe (2) is right, then why do you care for Brahmana status?

If you believe (1) is right, then note that such a position is peculiar to your tradition, which like I said earlier, is very weird for an organization made up mostly of westerners.

 

Cheers

[chandu_69]

I didnt notice any Hare Krishnas obsessing about the varna-system.Not here atleast.

[Beggar]

During the time of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, brahmanas who became Gaudiya Vaisnavas under his guidance took their threads off. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur wanted to emphasize the point that Vaisnavas were more than brahmanas, so he gave the thread and the traditional Gayatri manta as the first line in a series of mantras at diksa. Those who received these mantras also received the thread (males). Part of this was a preaching strategy aimed at the Smarta brahmanas who thought of themselves as superior to Vaisnavas just my their birth.

[kaisersose]

 

Part of this was a preaching strategy aimed at the Smarta brahmanas who thought of themselves as superior to Vaisnavas just my their birth.

 

Exactly what was the strategy?

 

If I understand this right, the only goal of this diksha exercise was to snub Smarthas. If yes, that is a display of very silly behavior. Handing out Brahmana threads to all for no reason other than to thumb your nose at some people you dislike.

 

Cheers

[Justin]

 

Someone please enlighten me.

 

Why are the Hare Krishnas obsessing about the varna-system? Why is it important for them to become Brahmanas?

 

I fail to get it. Since the Hare Krishna's goal is Krishna, why this deep-seeded need to become a Brahmana? I don't see the link.

 

It looks like they believe only Brahmanas are eligible for Krishna, which I find to be a very weird position for an international organization, not to mention lack of scriptural support for such a position.

 

Cheers

 

These are super questions. I doubt whether you will find a legitimate answer from the gaudiyas.

[andy108]

 

1) The Hare Krishnas make a big case for how Brahmanas are not by birth[/quuote]

 

Noone ever said that a brahmana cannot be born in a brahmana family and be a brahmana. This is just your typical loathsome tactic of twisting words and fabricating straw man arguments.

 

Your assumptions are presumptuous and ignore points already provided by me.

 

You are lost, and will no longer receive another iota of my valuable time.

 

You can lead a horse to water....

[visnujana]

 

So what is the necessity of giving unqualified people brahmin initiations?

First of all 'brahmin' is a word. It refers to humans that possess some rare auspicious qualities. Those qualities are described in the sastras. However, this means that different individuals or groups of people will have different opinions whether or not a particular person is qualified as a brahmin. This has been highly debatable topic for centuries. I am not going to get into that though. For those who would like to know how Gaudiya-vaisnavas see this I suggest reading the Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, which is a very well written, detailed sastric explaination on this and many other topics by an author who is highly respected in both brahmana and vaisnava communities. Sri Kedranath Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote this as well as more than a hundred of his other books on bhakti addressing primarily the highly educated and intelligent people in India, most of which are undoubtedly brahmanas. That's why he gave a complete explanation on this topic, since even in those days (second half of the 19th century) it was not very easy for brahmana community to understand vaisnavism and its relationship with the brahmana caste.

Speaking of the diksa-initiation practiced in vaisnava tradition, it is by no way meant for 'establishing' one to the 'rights' of a Brahmana nor for securing the respect normally due to the Brahmanas. Vaisnavas are least interested in that. Vaisnava diksa aims at two things: 1. receiving divya-jnana (transcendental knowledge of one's relationship with the Lord) and 2. anartha-nivritti (liberating oneself from anarthas, bad habbits and most importantly, improper (unfavorable to bhakti) inclinations in the heart).

[kaisersose]

 

That's why he gave a complete explanation on this topic, since even in those days (second half of the 19th century) it was not very easy for brahmana community to understand vaisnavism and its relationship with the brahmana caste.

 

I dont know what you mean. Brahmana Vaishnavas have been around for thousands of years and the two major Vaishnava traditions in India were founded by Brahmanas. Why would they have any trouble knowing their own traditions and beliefs in the second half of the 19th century?

 

If you are specifically referring to Gaudiya Vaishnavas, then what you write is possible.

 

 

Vaisnava diksa aims at two things: 1. receiving divya-jnana (transcendental knowledge of one's relationship with the Lord) and 2. anartha-nivritti (liberating oneself from anarthas, bad habbits and most importantly, improper (unfavorable to bhakti) inclinations in the heart).

 

Neither of these goals require one to become a Brahmana. If anything, I only see danger in such a conversion process.

 

Cheers

[theist]

O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lowerbirth-women, vaiśyas [merchants], as well as śūdras [workers]-can approach the supreme destination.

 

 

 

How much greater then are the brāhmaṇas, the righteous, the devotees, and saintly kings! In this miserable world, these are fixed in devotional service to the Lord." BG 9.32-33

[sambya]

there are two kinds of brahmanas -- by birth and by qualities . there are some qualities which is traditionally thought to be characteristics of any brahmana such as , daya (compassion) , suchita(hygene) , satyavadi (truthful ) etc. in the later vedic period the varna system became rigid and the process of determining a brahmana by guna(qualities) became obsolete. it was the late 19th century hindu reform movements which recognised and introduced method of initiating people as brahmanas based on their qualities.

 

but that doesnt make brahmanas by birth less valuable either. thousands of years of gloroius ancestry , education and many other qualities do pass on to the next generation . so if someone is born as a brahmana it makes no sense to get his thread removed and handed over again after harinaam-brahmin initiation . it would definitely be a disregard of a 3000 year old tradition and a forcefull glorification of gaudiya vaishnavism , which i think is not very respectfull . there are many other religious orders who does not remove the thread but give a second gaayatri initiation later as a method of reinforcing the individua's already existing , but dormant brahminical qualities.

 

it wiser and better to bring out the brahminical qualities than tear off the thread with no respect to the age old custom.

[Sephiroth]

Hehehehehehe ...

 

Forgive me for laughing. I just find it funny that some people could actually state who Sri Krishna could go to or couldn't go to as if they know Him so well.

[sambya]

 

since even in those days (second half of the 19th century) it was not very easy for brahmana community to understand vaisnavism and its relationship with the brahmana caste.

 

explantions needed !!!

[visnujana]

 

explantions needed !!!

Sambya, I'd like to again refer you and anyone else interested in this subject to Jaiva-Dharma. Please do take a look. There are quite a few things there explained, relevant to your question. But just to give you a sample...

Perhaps one of the most potentially confusing things for brahmins in Vaisnava behavior is how they choose their association. A vaisnava born in a brahmana family will not hesitate to take the association of a superior vaisnava from a non-brahmana family. In fact it is considered to be an offense to even think of a pure vaisnava in terms of his social background. This is in terms of spiritual association. However in social dealings vaisnava-brahmana will follow the 'standard' rules for his social group. For example, he won't marry a girl from a non-brahmana family, etc. In Jaiva-Dharma you will find much more on this and many other points relevant to your question.

There you will also find an extended and highly important discussion on some very possible difference on how the vaisnavas and the nowadays brahmanas see (understand) sadhana and sadhya.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Sambya, I'd like to again refer you and anyone else interested in this subject to Jaiva-Dharma. Please do take a look. There are quite a few things there explained, relevant to your question. But just to give you a sample...

Perhaps one of the most potentially confusing things for brahmins in Vaisnava behavior is how they choose their association. A vaisnava born in a brahmana family will not hesitate to take the association of a superior vaisnava from a non-brahmana family. In fact it is considered to be an offense to even think of a pure vaisnava in terms of his social background. This is in terms of spiritual association. However in social dealings vaisnava-brahmana will follow the 'standard' rules for his social group. For example, he won't marry a girl from a non-brahmana family, etc. In Jaiva-Dharma you will find much more on this and many other points relevant to your question.

There you will also find an extended and highly important discussion on some very possible difference on how the vaisnavas and the nowadays brahmanas see (understand) sadhana and sadhya.

 

Nice responce!

[bhaktatraveler]

 

there are two kinds of brahmanas -- by birth and by qualities . there are some qualities which is traditionally thought to be characteristics of any brahmana such as , daya (compassion) , suchita(hygene) , satyavadi (truthful ) etc. in the later vedic period the varna system became rigid and the process of determining a brahmana by guna(qualities) became obsolete. it was the late 19th century hindu reform movements which recognised and introduced method of initiating people as brahmanas based on their qualities.

 

but that doesnt make brahmanas by birth less valuable either. thousands of years of gloroius ancestry , education and many other qualities do pass on to the next generation . so if someone is born as a brahmana it makes no sense to get his thread removed and handed over again after harinaam-brahmin initiation . it would definitely be a disregard of a 3000 year old tradition and a forcefull glorification of gaudiya vaishnavism , which i think is not very respectfull . there are many other religious orders who does not remove the thread but give a second gaayatri initiation later as a method of reinforcing the individua's already existing , but dormant brahminical qualities.

 

it wiser and better to bring out the brahminical qualities than tear off the thread with no respect to the age old custom.

 

There is no such thing as brahman by birth. Always by quality ownly. To be born in a family of brahmanas is also a big question. I have read Srila Prabhupada questioning the validity of family gotra because guna and karma could not be truthfully assertained. So first let us 'see' the guna and karma of brahmana, then we will talk of the sons birth.

 

Taking for granted that the son's birth is in fact in a brahman family, then we still have to see that he has embodied the same satva guna qualities. If he has? Then I can agree to not take off the old thead. But for useless tradition we do not care. It can only be by guna and karma that one is a brahman. Not by birth in any stage of the game. Even if the game has been going on for three thousand yrs

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[suchandra]

 

Someone please enlighten me.

 

Why are the Hare Krishnas obsessing about the varna-system? Why is it important for them to become Brahmanas?

 

I fail to get it. Since the Hare Krishna's goal is Krishna, why this deep-seeded need to become a Brahmana? I don't see the link.

 

It looks like they believe only Brahmanas are eligible for Krishna, which I find to be a very weird position for an international organization, not to mention lack of scriptural support for such a position.

 

Cheers

These are not only the Hare Krsnas,

 

"So long as the love, even the smallest, of man toward woman is not destroyed, so long is his mind in bondage as the calf that drinks milk is to his mother." - Lord Buddha

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Someone please enlighten me.

 

Why are the Hare Krishnas obsessing about the varna-system? Why is it important for them to become Brahmanas?

 

I fail to get it. Since the Hare Krishna's goal is Krishna, why this deep-seeded need to become a Brahmana? I don't see the link.

 

It looks like they believe only Brahmanas are eligible for Krishna, which I find to be a very weird position for an international organization, not to mention lack of scriptural support for such a position.

 

Cheers

 

As far as the followers of Srila Prabhupada are told, they are to place themselve in a normal condition of life(DVD) and work dilligently for Krsna.

 

The rest is made up and not completely in line with Prabhupada on the subject of brahman. Four varnas and four asramas is the right conclusion.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[bhaktatraveler]

 

As far as the followers of Srila Prabhupada are told, they are to place themselve in a normal condition of life(DVD) and work dilligently for Krsna.

 

The rest is made up and not completely in line with Prabhupada on the subject of brahman. Four varnas and four asramas is the right conclusion.

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

 

TO Kaisersosa

(Oh, I get it on the name. What was the name of that movie, The Usual Suspects? So your not whom you propose to be then? Yes? A shrill?)

 

You next time read the books! Ignore the rest that claim different. On the other hand you may need a guide to show you the way around the incongruent obsticles that appear to the novice. But then why would Kaiser Sosay need anything? He is the fully equipted, quiescential bad guy!

 

SB. 8.2.30.....

 

Thereafter, because of being pulled into the water and fighting for many long years, the elephant became diminished in his mental, physical and sensual strength. The crocodile, on the contrary, being an animal of the water, increased in enthusiasm, physical strength and sensual power.

PURPORT

In the fighting between the elephant and the crocodile, the difference was that although the elephant was extremely powerful, he was in a foreign place, in the water. During one thousand years of fighting, he could not get any food, and under the circumstances his bodily strength diminished, and because his bodily strength diminished, his mind also became weak and his senses less powerful. The crocodile, however, being an animal of the water, had no difficulties. He was getting food and was therefore getting mental strength and sensual encouragement. Thus while the elephant became reduced in strength, the crocodile became more and more powerful. Now, from this we may take the lesson that in our fight with māyā we should not be in a position in which our strength, enthusiasm and senses will be unable to fight vigorously. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement has actually declared war against the illusory energy, in which all the living entities are rotting in a false understanding of civilization. The soldiers in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement must always possess physical strength, enthusiasm and sensual power. To keep themselves fit, they must therefore place themselves in a normal condition of life. What constitutes a normal condition will not be the same for everyone, and therefore there are divisions of varṇāśrama—brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra, brahmacarya, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. Especially in this age, Kali-yuga, it is advised that no one take sannyāsa.

aśvamedhaṁ gavālambhaṁ

sannyāsaṁ pala-paitṛkam

devareṇa sutotpattiṁ

kalau pañca vivarjayet

</I>[Cc. </B>Ādi</B> </I>17.164</I>]</I>

 

(Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa)

 

From this we can understand that in this age the sannyāsa-āśrama is forbidden because people are not strong. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu showed us an example in taking sannyāsa at the age of twenty-four years, but even Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya advised Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to be extremely careful because He had taken sannyāsa at an early age. For preaching we give young boys sannyāsa, but actually it is being experienced that they are not fit for sannyāsa. There is no harm, however, if one thinks that he is unfit for sannyāsa; if he is very much agitated sexually, he should go to the āśrama where sex is allowed, namely the gṛhastha-āśrama. That one has been found to be very weak in one place does not mean that he should stop fighting the crocodile of māyā. One should take shelter of the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, as we shall see Gajendra do, and at the same time one can be a gṛhastha if he is satisfied with sexual indulgence. There is no need to give up the fight. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore recommended, sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vān-manobhiḥ. One may stay in whichever āśrama is suitable for him; it is not essential that one take sannyāsa. If one is sexually agitated, he can enter the gṛhastha-āśrama. But one must continue fighting. For one who is not in a transcendental position, to take sannyāsa artificially is not a very great credit. If sannyāsa is not suitable, one may enter the gṛhastha-āśrama and fight māyā with great strength. But one should not give up the fighting and go away.

[visnujana]

 

Neither of these goals require one to become a Brahmana.

That's exactly my point! Vaisnavas (yes, here and then I speak of the gaudiyas) can't care less for the title. Traditionally they do not even call diksa 'brahminical initiation'. Even nowadays this terms is used only in ISKCON, as far as I know. It's 'vaisnava diksa'. That's it. On the other hand, I don't think the use of 'brahminical initiation' is wrong. Well, it might present some danger to some people's position. But if we agree that brahim means some wonderful qualities, then what's the danger? If I do have some qualities who can take them from me? .. and if I do posses some wonderful qualities no doubt I will naturally command respect, position and all these stuff, well.. if any of that matters.

 

If anything, I only see danger in such a conversion process.

Why? Danger to who? Where would it come from? And what exactly do you mean by conversion process?

Have you taken look at Jaiva-Dharma? There are some nice discussions there entirely based on sastra just on this subject, I think.. What is conversion and what is preserving?

Anyway.. But really.. believe me, Vaisnavas are not political in the least. They don't even think of themselves so much in terms of varna although do not neglect their material duties either. They sincerely respect and love brahmanas. You see all of that in Jaiva-Dharma. Krishna is known as One who worships the brahmanas... and vaisnavas worship Krishna...

By the way, please don't hold me 'responsible' for whatever is going on in the Hare Krishna movement now. I am only inspired to speak on behalf of the pure tradition to the tiny extent I may be able to perceive it.

[Kulapavana]

Here are some quotes from Brahma-sutra Bhashaya of Sankara and SriBhashya of Ramanuja.

 

"The Sudras are not qualified for that reason also that Gautama having ascertained Jabala not to be a Sudra from his speaking the truth, proceeded to initiate and instruct him. 'None who is not a Brahmana would thus speak out. Go and fetch fuel, friend, I shall initiate you. You have not swerved from truth.' (Ch up 4.4.5) Sankara Bhashya (1:3:37)

 

"From those Sudras, however, who like Vidura and 'the religious hunter' acquire knowledge in consequence of the after effects of former deeds, the fruit of their knowledge cannot be witheld, since knowledge in all cases brings about its fruit." (Sankara 1.3.38)

 

"Owing to the effect of former actions, which ahd not yet worked themselves out, they were born in a low caste, while at the same time they possessed wisdom owing to the fact that the knowledge acquired by then in former births had not yet quite vanished." (Ramanuja 1.3.33)

 

"Even a person who because he does not belong to an ashrama stands between as it were, is qualified for knowledge. 'For that is seen'. For we meet wth scriptural passages declaring that persons of that class such as Raikva and the daughter of Vachanu--possessed the knowledge of Brahman (ch 4.1, Bri 3.6.8)"(Sankara3.4.36)

 

"Smriti also declares that men not belonging to an ashrama grow in knowledge through prayer and the like. 'Through prayer (japa) also a Brahmana may become perfect May he perform other works or not, who befriends all creatures is called a Brahmana (Manu Smriti 2.17)' " (Ramanuja 3.4.37)<!--QuoteEnd-->

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Here are some quotes from Brahma-sutra Bhashaya of Sankara and SriBhashya of Ramanuja.

 

"The Sudras are not qualified for that reason also that Gautama having ascertained Jabala not to be a Sudra from his speaking the truth, proceeded to initiate and instruct him. 'None who is not a Brahmana would thus speak out. Go and fetch fuel, friend, I shall initiate you. You have not swerved from truth.' (Ch up 4.4.5) Sankara Bhashya (1:3:37)

 

"From those Sudras, however, who like Vidura and 'the religious hunter' acquire knowledge in consequence of the after effects of former deeds, the fruit of their knowledge cannot be witheld, since knowledge in all cases brings about its fruit." (Sankara 1.3.38)

 

"Owing to the effect of former actions, which ahd not yet worked themselves out, they were born in a low caste, while at the same time they possessed wisdom owing to the fact that the knowledge acquired by then in former births had not yet quite vanished." (Ramanuja 1.3.33)

 

"Even a person who because he does not belong to an ashrama stands between as it were, is qualified for knowledge. 'For that is seen'. For we meet wth scriptural passages declaring that persons of that class such as Raikva and the daughter of Vachanu--possessed the knowledge of Brahman (ch 4.1, Bri 3.6.8)"(Sankara3.4.36)

 

"Smriti also declares that men not belonging to an ashrama grow in knowledge through prayer and the like. 'Through prayer (japa) also a Brahmana may become perfect May he perform other works or not, who befriends all creatures is called a Brahmana (Manu Smriti 2.17)' " (Ramanuja 3.4.37)<!--QuoteEnd-->

 

Nice quotes Kula!

 

RCB