More from Gurukrpa/Then More from Satsvarupa

[AncientMariner]

I can even understand scrutinizing Prabhupada's actions to some degree because the thought has popped into my mind before if Prabhupada is really a divine avatar why did things turn out so badly especially in regards to child molestation. I don't blame Prabhupada for that but how could Krishna let such a thing happen? That question haunts me sometimes especially when the Srimad Bhagavatam is all about how Krishna protects his devotees. Just being honest and not trying to commit aparadha or anything.

 

For some reason I do not know if is irrational sentimentality there is something inside my consciousness that just holds great appreciation for Prabhupada. Maybe I am under the influence of the "Prabhupada onlyite" cult or whateva but the magnitude of the task that Prabhupada was undertaking was epic in scale. Coming to this godforsaken land of materialism at an advanced age and even the Godbrothers that have followed in his footsteps are at best only supporting actors in this tale in my book not because of any disqualification on their part but because Prabhupada was the primary epic hero or maybe tragic hero in his pioneering solitary seemingly hopeless journey and task.

 

I personally would rather curl up into the fetal position for the rest of my life than go and try to convince anyone that Krishna is God especially here in America and believe it or not I am not a coward as I have been in situations in sports with lots of people watching that made me crap my pants, sweat bullets, and have involuntary spasms and nervous shakes but I finished the task.

[andy108]

 

It is all good, we all make mistakes and we learn and we grow. I am glad to see that you seem at peace with your service and you are growing and becoming a good representative of Krishna. I know I have had people in my life that I have believed in only to find my trust was misplaced.

 

I am really glad to see you are not in that mode where you view it as aparadha when anyone critisizes the actions of some of these Iskcon gurus. I have tried not to be critical myself but as an outsider that was not even born or very young when most of the history of Iskcon happened I have always felt I had a right to scrutinize the legitimacy of an organization such as Iskcon given its history and given the claims by some that the only way to heaven is to surrender to an Iskcon guru or something along those lines. I apologize if I have ever been disrespectful to you or your godbrothers.

Though your sentiment towards Kulapavana is kind-hearted, you have to realize that we can't have things both ways. One can serve only one master.

 

Either Srila Prabhupada was an Advanced Pure Devotee of Sri Krsna, a Maha Bhagavat Acarya and Spiritual MASTER who takes constant and eternal dictation from Supersoul, or not.

 

If he was such a one, those who scrutinize the legitimacy of his decisions in carrying out his mission, or claim the results of his efforts were harmful to the Krsna Consciousness movement, considering it as some material endeavor, are in ignorance. And not representing Krsna nicely at all.

 

 

Bg 10.3 : PURPORT :

Anything done under the direction of Kṛṣṇa is transcendental. It cannot be contaminated by the material reactions, which may be auspicious or inauspicious. The conception that there are things auspicious and inauspicious in the material world is more or less a mental concoction because there is nothing auspicious in the material world. Everything is inauspicious because the very material mask is inauspicious. We simply imagine it to be auspicious. Real auspiciousness depends on activities in Kṛṣṇa consciousness in full devotion and service. Therefore if we at all want our activities to he auspicious, then we should work under the directions of the Supreme Lord. Such directions are given in authoritative scriptures such as Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and Bhagavad-gītā, or from a bona fide spiritual master. Because the spiritual master is the representative of the Supreme Lord, his direction is directly the direction of the Supreme Lord. The spiritual master, saintly persons and scriptures direct in the same way. There is no contradiction in these three sources. All actions done under such direction are free from the reactions of pious or impious activities of this material world.

 

Of course if he was not such a one, then that so called Spiritual Master is a legitimate and necessary target for scrutiny and criticism in the name of reforming a his poor methodologies.

 

If one is honest and humbly skeptical and scrutinizing in order to come to some reconciliation with apparent contradictions, that is natural and understandable and a compassionate person should endeavor to assist such an honest seeker of truth in whatever way possible to come to terms.

 

Though it seems disingenuous to me when a person points to the contradictions they find as indications of the failure of Srila Prabhupada, instead of first assuming it is because of their own fallen vision.

 

And while they haven't yet reconciled them, they are found to resist all reasonable efforts at explanation by those who have reconciled them.

 

Such a person has an agenda that does not include glorifying the Acarya, representing the Acarya, and it is obvious they do not actually believe he was of the exalted status that others believe he was.

 

So in such a case, I believe a wise person would not air out their assessment that Srila Prabhupada was flawed in the presence of known loyal disciples of his. There would be nothing for such a person to gain by doing so.

 

But a person looking to capitalize on the Acarya's legacy would do things differently. They would use a large amount of the knowledge and wherewithal infused to them by the Acarya, but then minimize him in other ways, hoping to draw sympathetic persons into his circle in the name of reforming the mistakes the so-called Acarya made. Thus building something of his own design off of the foundation he actually took from the Acarya, and simultaneously guiding the disenfranchised sympathizers away from the chance of resolving the apparent contradictions in the Acarya's movement in their own minds and being able to push on with the Acarya's version and gain the advancement that goes along with some effort.

 

Instead they get stuck in the Acarya-criticisers speculation effort and their spiritual advancement is stalled under that person's insufficient guidance.

 

Buyer Beware.

[AncientMariner]

 

Though your sentiment towards Kulapavana is kind-hearted, you have to realize that we can't have things both ways. One can serve only one master.

 

Either Srila Prabhupada was an Advanced Pure Devotee of Sri Krsna, a Maha Bhagavat Acarya and Spiritual MASTER who takes constant and eternal dictation from Supersoul, or not.

 

If he was such a one, those who scrutinize the legitimacy of his decisions in carrying out his mission, or claim the results of his efforts were harmful to the Krsna Consciousness movement, considering it as some material endeavor, are in ignorance. And not representing Krsna nicely at all.

 

 

 

Of course if he was not such a one, then that so called Spiritual Master is a legitimate and necessary target for scrutiny and criticism in the name of reforming a his poor methodologies.

 

If one is honest and humbly skeptical and scrutinizing in order to come to some reconciliation with apparent contradictions, that is natural and understandable and a compassionate person should endeavor to assist such an honest seeker of truth in whatever way possible to come to terms.

 

Though it seems disingenuous to me when a person points to the contradictions they find as indications of the failure of Srila Prabhupada, instead of first assuming it is because of their own fallen vision.

 

And while they haven't yet reconciled them, they are found to resist all reasonable efforts at explanation by those who have reconciled them.

 

Such a person has an agenda that does not include glorifying the Acarya, representing the Acarya, and it is obvious they do not actually believe he was of the exalted status that others believe he was.

 

So in such a case, I believe a wise person would not air out their assessment that Srila Prabhupada was flawed in the presence of known loyal disciples of his. There would be nothing for such a person to gain by doing so.

 

But a person looking to capitalize on the Acarya's legacy would do things differently. They would use a large amount of the knowledge and wherewithal infused to them by the Acarya, but then minimize him in other ways, hoping to draw sympathetic persons into his circle in the name of reforming the mistakes the so-called Acarya made. Thus building something of his own design off of the foundation he actually took from the Acarya, and simultaneously guiding the disenfranchised sympathizers away from the chance of resolving the apparent contradictions in the Acarya's movement in their own minds and being able to push on with the Acarya's version and gain the advancement that goes along with some effort.

 

Instead they get stuck in the Acarya-criticisers speculation effort and their spiritual advancement is stalled under that person's insufficient guidance.

 

Buyer Beware.

 

 

I have always been wary of Kulapavana because he used to be one of the ones to shout aparadha against anyone who dared question the actions of the Iskcon gurus. Then he said his guru who ran off with a massage therapist was showing regret for his actions but Kulapavana never mentioned that if this guru was interested in rectifying himself he could start by giving back the money he stole on the way out. That sent off red flags there but I can understand these questions in regards to Prabhuapda's choice in leadership merely because those thoughts have popped into my mind before. I had noticed that Kulapavana doesn't shout aparadha about questions about Iskcon gurus much anymore and he often scrutinizes their actions so I am willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt if they show a change of heart.

 

 

 

I agree with you if Kulapavana is doing this all within the Iskcon framework and suggesting he has the solutions and answers better than Prabhupada for Iskcon from within the Iskcon institution is indeed questionable to say the least. I was under the impression that Kulapavana is no longer associated with Iskcon. If he has a better method he should start up his own foundation with his own assets or assets not related to Prabhupada's legacy anyway, that would be the only respectable thing to do in my opinion if he truly doubts the acaryaship of Prabhupada.

[andy108]

 

I have always been wary of Kulapavana because he used to be one of the ones to shout aparadha against anyone who dared question the actions of the Iskcon gurus. Then he said his guru who ran off with a massage therapist was showing regret for his actions but Kulapavana never mentioned that if he was interested in rectifying himself he could start by giving back the money he stole on the way out. That sent off red flags there but I can understand these questions in regards to Prabhuapda's choice in leadership merely because those thoughts have popped into my mind before.

 

 

I agree with you if Kulapavana is doing this all within the Iskcon framework and suggesting he has the solutions and answers better than Prabhupada for Iskcon from within the Iskcon institution is indeed questionable to say the least. I was under the impression that Kulapavana is no longer associated with Iskcon. If he has a better method he should start up his own foundation, that would be the only respectable thing to do.

 

Many people claim to be no longer within the Iskcon framework, but as you pointed out, the enormity of Srila Prabhupada's accomplishments, with rudimentary assistance from people who, although willing and sometimes sincere, were entirely ignorant of 99% of what was Gaudiya Vaisnavism, makes it difficult for anyone who had the advantage of all he gave to claim to be not under his wing.

 

I belive THAT was by the Lord's design in order to keep us honest, and make it obvious who is trying to get what they don't deserve and make a mess of things.

 

For someone to create their own Sankirtana mission, based on Gaudiya Philsophy, on their own merits, without capitalizing on Srila Prabhupada's foundational legacy, or possibly contradicting him at some point in time, is practically nil.

 

But if it were so, that person would certainly not be regularly associating with Iskcon members, quoting Srila Prabhupada, handing out his books, and simultanously calling Srila Prabhupada's decision making into question on a daily basis.

 

Just the facts, Jack.

[suchandra]

 

On the other hand, by the sound of your posts, you don't believe he was an Acarya at all. Why don't you just admit it.

 

Good point, these folks say the same about Lord Jesus' associates and even Krsna Himself, oh, why He went to a place where there are so many demons? Is this actually God?

 

Aren't we always surrounded by so many questionable characters?

 

 

 

 

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[Kulapavana]

 

What part about Krsna as Supersoul dictating to the Acarya don't you understand.

 

On the other hand, by the sound of your posts, you don't believe he was an Acarya at all. Why don't you just admit it.

 

Perhaps because your pool of prospective disciples would quickly reduce to NIL.

 

Your concept of a Vaishnava acharya is straight out of a superhero movie or a personality cult story... I certainly accept Prabhupada as an Acharya but my understanding of an acharya is much more rational and based on historical and scriptural examples.

 

No, I do not believe the Supersoul was dictating Prabhupada's books or making his decisions for him. His purports are based on the tikas of previous acharyas and his own realizations - that is pretty obvious if you know the tikas Prabhupada was using. As to his decisions, Prabhupada simply said that a guru knows what Krsna wants him to know - he made no claims that whatever he did was dictated to him verbatim by Krsna.

 

As to chosing the disciples for leadership positions, Prabhupada certainly had a choice in the early 70's - and he DID exercise that choice as he saw fit, replacing temple presidents, secretaries, or GBCs. So the choices were his untill the very end.

 

And the idea of me trolling for disciples is just as bizzare and divorced from reality as the majority of your posts.

[Kulapavana]

 

I am really glad to see you are not in that mode where you view it as aparadha when anyone critisizes the actions of some of these Iskcon gurus.

 

You always have to have a valid and factual reason to criticize someone. And even then it is advised to be respectful.

[Kulapavana]

 

I have always been wary of Kulapavana because he used to be one of the ones to shout aparadha against anyone who dared question the actions of the Iskcon gurus.

 

You are obviously confusing me with someone else. Please show a quote where I did that. Otherwise I say you are a liar.

 

As to Harikesha and the money he extorted from Iskcon - I never had kind words for that. I merely said that he seems to be returning to a more respectable form of Krsna consciousness, from total insanity he slipped into at some point. I never had much respect for anybody obtaining money in dirty ways - regardles of what their reasoning was.

[andy108]

 

Your concept of a Vaishnava acharya is straight out of a superhero movie or a personality cult story...

 

No it is based upon what Scripture says, and what he accomplished, you know those accomplishments you claim to be tainted with poor results yet seem to be extremely envious of.

 

 

I certainly accept Prabhupada as an Acharya but my understanding of an acharya is much more rational and based on historical and scriptural examples.

 

You obviously think people can't read. By your own statements you consider Srila Prabhupada a conditioned soul who made mistakes at his attempt to make better material arrangements for the world. Your understanding of an acarya goes in direct contradiction to scripture, revealed by your decade long campaign of criticism which continues to this day.

 

 

No, I do not believe the Supersoul was dictating Prabhupada's books or making his decisions for him. His purports are based on the tikas of previous acharyas and his own realizations - that is pretty obvious if you know the tikas Prabhupada was using. As to his decisions, Prabhupada simply said that a guru knows what Krsna wants him to know - he made no claims that whatever he did was dictated to him verbatim by Krsna.

 

While the above is correct, it omits a very important point.

 

Firstly, your penchant for creating straw men is getting old. I never said whatever he did was dictated verbatim by Krsna. However the point you omit is that whatever he did "may as well have been directly dictated verbatim". Why you ask?

 

If he was a Maha-Bhagavata, uttama adhikari, Spiritual Master, and Acarya as you claim to believe, his realizations were perfection, his decisions were perfect, and the tikas of previous acaryas were perfect.

 

And before you jump the gun and make assumptions about what I mean by perfect, it is not according to your mundane super-hero understanding of perfect, but perfect meaning according to the Lord's will, desire, and plans.

 

So at this stage of perfection, if you indeed believe the one you criticize was there, the following occurs.

 

 

SB 3.15.45 from purport: But to obtain direct contact with the Supersoul and take dictation from Him is the highest perfectional stage.

 

 

SB 3.15.45 : more PURPORT : A person in full Kṛṣṇa consciousness acts by the dictation of Kṛṣṇa. In the beginning of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, dictation is received through the transparent medium of the spiritual master. When one is sufficiently trained and acts in submissive faith and love for Kṛṣṇa under the direction of the bona fide spiritual master, the dovetailing process becomes more firm and accurate. This stage of devotional service by the devotee in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the most perfect stage of the yoga system. At this stage, Kṛṣṇa, or the Supersoul, dictates from within,

 

We know that dictation also means guidance. Direction. As a matter of fact, at the advanced stage of devotional service, it is considered that all acts of that devotee are in harmony with the will and desire of the Lord, this is why there are hundreds of examples of using the word dictation, with all the various meanings possible according to the circumstance.

 

In general it means simply knowing and acting in a way pleasing to the lord, not that he speaks to you in every circumstance literally, "Kula, it is time to use the toilet. Proceed down the hall and make the first left, open the door, etc."

 

For instance :

 

Arrival Comments in Car to Temple -- July 9, 1976, New York

 

Prabhupāda: Yes, I, when I decided I shall go to foreign countries, I never thought of going to London, I thought of coming here. Generally they go to London, but I thought, "No, I shall go to New York."

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Very progressive.

Prabhupāda: (laughs) I do not know. It is Kṛṣṇa's dictation. I could have gone, London was nearer. But I thought, "No I shall go to New York." Sometimes I think I was coming this part. Aimlessly... I think the United Nations building is somewhere here?

 

 

But of course such dictation can occur if the situation requires.

 

 

April 1, 1969, San Francisco conv. : He is Supersoul. He will give you... If you are sincere, He will give you good counsel, "You do like this." You'll get dictation from within. That requires advancement of spiritual life. Then you get from within dictation.

 

 

March 14, 1976, Mayapur : Suppose a saintly person comes to a very sinful man. He needs some money. Immediately Kṛṣṇa says, "Give him some money. He requires." So he says, "All right, sir, take it." So Kṛṣṇa's desires, he gives. Unless Kṛṣṇa dictates from within, how he can give?

 

So, regarding your personal accountability theory for Acaryas,

 

 

As to chosing the disciples for leadership positions, Prabhupada certainly had a choice in the early 70's - and he DID exercise that choice as he saw fit, replacing temple presidents, secretaries, or GBCs. So the choices were his untill the very end.

 

If you think his choices were inappropriate, and brought poor results to the movement as you have always said, then you are directly criticising the one who guided his every move as he was completely surrendered to Krsna's will.

 

Unless of course, you believe you are smarter than Krsna. Or perhaps you should just admit, that due to your "beliefs" and opinions, there is no way Srila Prabhupada was a Maha-Bhagavat, a Spiritual Master, or Acarya.

 

Just freakin SAY IT DIRECTLY FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL.

 

It will make you feel better. And me too.

 

 

And the idea of me trolling for disciples is just as bizzare and divorced from reality as the majority of your posts.

 

If it walks like a troll, smells like a troll.....

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

If it walks like a troll, smells like a troll.....

 

[andy108]

And types like a troll...

[Beggar]

 

Every day each one of the regular Audarya posters is getting closer and closer to the troll within. Don't fear this process, but rather embrace it.

Get up every morning and look in the mirror, and you will see the troll within is now gradually coming out. It is not that this troll picture has shown up on this thread by some random coincidence. Nothing takes place by chance.

[andy108]

 

Every day each one of the regular Audarya posters is getting closer and closer to the troll within. Don't fear this process, but rather embrace it.

Get up every morning and look in the mirror, and you will see the troll within is now gradually coming out. It is not that this troll picture has shown up on this thread by some random coincidence. Nothing takes place by chance.

 

Looks like I'm gonna need a bigger toothbrush.

[mahak]

The offense is not with obama, but I cringe with hillary. Its humor, which krsna laughs at, just azs he did when he gazed at Paundraka who was disguised as Visnu.

 

I dont get in a tilly bout this stuff, Im not taliban. Because there are no pure devotees (taht one can count anyway), who is not offensive. Why do folks want to curse to hell Hendrix for his album cover? His movie, rainbow breidge, showed favorably the samkirtan. So one wants to send him to hell for art, but maybe Krsna wants him somewhere other than the hell fanatics want to send everyone except their own blind selves.

 

hare krsnas, mahak

[Sonic Yogi]

Originally, we all had Troll bodies but we projected our consciousness to the material world and have falsely identified ourselves as humans.

 

When we become "Troll-realized" we will re-awaken our inner Troll and go back home back to Trollaloka where we will herd lemmings with Sri Trollpal the immortal Lemmingherd Troll.

[Kyros]

I have noticed that this particular board induces us the manifest the fantical side of ourselves.

 

The internet in general, actually...

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I have noticed that this particular board induces us the manifest the fantical side of ourselves.

 

The internet in general, actually...

 

Well, what we do is just open up and say things that in ordinary dealings we would just clam-up, be diplomatic and not actually say what we think.

 

Inside, we are all fanatic about what we believe.

The forum just gives us a chance to say what we think honestly without holding back and being more civil and mannered.

 

Most of us avoid arguing and debating people in person one on one.

It's just not a very cool thing to do.

 

The forum just gives us a chance to vent our true thoughts in the comfort zone of our own homes.

 

I don't think it is about becoming fanatic because of the forum.

It is just that we vent our deeper thoughts and beliefs in a way that gives everyone their fifteen minutes of fame within a very small parameter.

 

I never talk religion or politics in my ordinary dealings.

 

The forum gives me a chance to say what I think and if somebody disagrees we can debate and see who's logic prevails.

[theist]

The myth is that during the time Prabhupada was with us everything in Iskcon was fine. It wasn't. Prabhupada was fine but everyone else had their demons to wrestle thru.

 

There is not now or ever in the future going to be a religious institution free from blemish or scandal. The trick is to take Krishna consciousness out of the mess and leave the rest.

 

The target for reform is not directly Iskcon as many think. The target for reform remains ourselves from the inside out.

 

Gurukrpa Memories - Apathy giving way to Rage!

BY: SURESH DASA

 

Feb 14, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, (SUN) —

I have been reading the various articles written by Gurukrpa, hisfriends, admirers, and supporters. I am struck by feelings of apathy,disbelief, sadness, and despair, finally giving way to rage over theirremembrances of his past as a glorious ISKCON leader and authority. Ihave been tolerating all these various rants, trying my best to stay aspatient as possible towards them. But I just can’t contain myselfanymore. Somebody has to say something and tell the truth about howthings really were in ISKCON’s past during Srila Prabhupada’s presence.

 

Whyare we lead to believe that Gurukrpa is any better than any of theother usurpers who run ISKCON today in the form of Zonal-Acaryas, GBC,and Initiating Gurus? Does anyone really know Gurukrpa’s past? Isanyone honest enough to tell the truth, without getting all starry-eyedabout our glorious service to ISKCON?

 

Gurukrpano doubt has his name on a column at the Krsna Balaram Mandir inVrndavan, giving him all the credit for collecting the laxmi needed tobuild that temple. But all the slave-labor book distributors andcollectors that he ground into the dust and burned to ashes are nothingmore than forgotten rank-and-file devotees, who were the actualcollectors of that money. Is no credit given to the Japanese peoplethat Gurukrpa and his Sankirtan party ripped off to collect that money?

 

Gurukrpa’scollecting techniques were so hard-driving aggressive, that he and hisparty single-handedly receive the credit for ISKCON being kicked out ofJapan and removed from that country. Apparently there were also someforms of hush-hush illegal activity as well, and even possibly murderinvolved in the collecting of that money in Japan. So why give him allthe credit and praise for building two temples that were built basednot on the love and kindness that ISKCON portrays itself to represent(hiding behind its books and philosophy), but on force, coercion, andpile-driving cruelty to the devotees and non-devotees alike.

 

Ipersonally remember Gurukrpa as a sannyasi in the San Francisco templearound 1973-74. He and Yasodanandana Swami back then were fire-brand,intense, angry, hellfire-and-brimstone sannyasis. Their famous linewas, “I kept my poker in my pants”, as their reason for takingsannyasa, and why they were superior to all the other devotees presentthere.

 

Theyalways employed a heavy-handed style in their dealings with thedevotees and non-devotees alike. I remember when Gurukrpa and someother leaders, came up with the “final solution” - and kicked all thewomen out of the San Francisco temple, turning it into an all-maletemple. I remember all those proud brahmacaris and sannyasis who hadfinally made the solution to the “woman problem” in ISKCON, all endingup getting married or running off with women, including none less thanGurukrpa and Yasodanandana Swamis themselves.

 

Fromtime to time I run into Gurukrpa Swami’s daughter (a woman today in herlate 20’s). She told me recently that Gurukrpa suffers from a heroin addiction.

 

Sowhat finally drove me over the edge to say something, and to bringmyself to write and object? It was Gurukrpa’s remembrance of hisglorious traveling Sankirtan memories. He remembers with pride how heand his devotees slept in a van and bathed daily in rivers on travelingSankirtan, while collecting their laxmi. I remember that experiencetoo. I was distributing books and collecting money seven days a week,as a traveling Sankirtan slave, as well. I remember realizing back thenhow much I was probably worth to ISKCON for collecting their money -about fifty cents a day. That’s how much it cost for us to go to a carwash each morning and get a power wash as our morning shower.

 

TheSankirtan leaders were too penny-pinching to put the traveling devoteesup in even the cheapest of motels for the night. So instead we had tosleep in cold, hard vans or on the ground, and in the morning the POWERWASH! Has anybody bathed in a river lately? They are all eitherpolluted or freezing cold. What is so glorious about being so cheap youcan’t give a devotee who is collecting money all day and night, without any pay, or even a little time off, a warm room and a hot shower?That’s what I had to look forward to in life. Of course sometimes wewould come back to the temple to wash pots, scrub floors, and cleanstool rooms, as our special reward for our service.

 

 

----

 

 

[andy108]

In the NOD, Srila Prabhupada said that we should follow the rules and regs mechanically at first. And then at some point, an internal transformation would occur. At that point we would continue doing the exact same external activities, yet they would then be occuring spontaneously and we would feel bliss in the doing, instead of being tinged with a sense of forcing ourselves as a duty. He calls the activities performed before our internal shift "vaidhi/regulated" and those post-internal shift, "spontaneous/Raganuga"

 

 

1970 Edition : NoD 2: The First Stages of Devotion :

Now this sādhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ārātrika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ārātrika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sādhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

If you think his choices were inappropriate, and brought poor results to the movement as you have always said, then you are directly criticising the one who guided his every move as he was completely surrendered to Krsna's will...

 

Srila Prabhupada worked very hard to build up Iskcon and whatever he did was for Krsna's glory. There is NO issue of karmic results - good or bad, as it was all devotional service. However, if you are willing to give Srila Prabhupada credit for his many accomplishments than you obviously believe it was not all just Krsna's doing. On the other side of this coin is the issue of responsibility for the choices that produced less than desirable results. For me it is definitely there, but it just a minor footnote to his great many victories.

 

The way I see it is similar to a case of a great general who has won the war against significant odds, but who in the process suffered heavy casualties among his troops and caused some significant collateral damage.

 

I am certainly happy and greatful the war was won by him...

[andy108]

 

On the other side of this coin is the issue of responsibility for the choices that produced less than desirable results. For me it is definitely there

I rest my case, until you say otherwise. The results you consider undesirable are due to your illusion, not Krsna's will.

 

Anyhow, Srila Prabhupada covered the bases insisting on DVD, purity as the force, piety as the ideal example. We failed him. Not the other way around.

[theist]

 

In the NOD, Srila Prabhupada said that we should follow the rules and regs mechanically at first. And then at some point, an internal transformation would occur. At that point we would continue doing the exact same external activities, yet they would then be occuring spontaneously and we would feel bliss in the doing, instead of being tinged with a sense of forcing ourselves as a duty. He calls the activities performed before our internal shift "vaidhi/regulated" and those post-internal shift, "spontaneous/Raganuga"

 

 

Yes but it is not an automatic, mechanical transformation requiring no internal work on the part of the practioner.

[andy108]

 

Yes but it is not an automatic, mechanical transformation requiring no internal work on the part of the practioner.

 

One follows the other.

 

First all occurs mechanically. The original internal decision to follow mechanically may not even be based upon a perception of personal lack of spiritual grace, it may be based on desire for power and material facility.

 

But still, the purifying effect of the mantra and arcana will have its way and induce the internal crisis. That is the conclusion.

 

How long it takes for each individual is not set in stone. But as we have witnessed, for those whose Heart is set in stone, a decades of such machinations sometimes remain just that.

[gauragopala dasa]

 

Good point, these folks say the same about Lord Jesus' associates and even Krsna Himself, oh, why He went to a place where there are so many demons? Is this actually God?

 

Aren't we always surrounded by so many questionable characters?

 

 

 

 

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Thats how we were treated in 72 in Melbourne

[theist]

 

One follows the other.

 

First all occurs mechanically. The original internal decision to follow mechanically may not even be based upon a perception of personal lack of spiritual grace, it may be based on desire for power and material facility.

 

But still, the purifying effect of the mantra and arcana will have its way and induce the internal crisis. That is the conclusion.

 

How long it takes for each individual is not set in stone. But as we have witnessed, for those whose Heart is set in stone, a decades of such machinations sometimes remain just that.

 

 

Right, and why is that? Because the name of God is not a mechanical device. The name of God is a Person and to surrender to the name of God is a personal decision made internally by every jiva.

 

 

 

You can shadow chant mechanically for a thousand years without once uttering the Pure Name or one can quickly come to the pure platform if the attitude is right.

 

 

Anyway this is off topic for this thread. You are posting the same on another thread so let's drop this on this thread.