More from Gurukrpa/Then More from Satsvarupa

[andy108]

 

Right, and why is that? Because the name of God is not a mechanical device. The name of God is a Person and to surrender to the name of God is a personal decision made internally by every jiva.

 

 

 

You can shadow chant mechanically for a thousand years without once uttering the Pure Name or one can quickly come to the pure platform if the attitude is right.

 

 

Anyway this is off topic for this thread.

 

Is it? We could tie it in. For instance, Satswarupa is publicly admitting to deception of his disciples, but not in a way that indicates he thinks there is anything wrong with it!!!

 

And how long has he been chanting the Holy Names?

 

Is this a sign that what he has been treating as an object, using it mechanically for his own purposes, is starting to wear him down. Forcing his conscience so to speak?

 

And what about GuruCripple. An outburst from him due to pangs of conscience mixed with his still motivated agenda?

 

The Holy Name does its thing, as you point out, with or without our consciously purposeful intention. Eventually cornering us into surrendering of our own free will to its transforming potency.

[bhaktajan]

So, everyone thinks that if Srila Prabhupada's vision was carried on after his departure perfectly 'to the letter' --then we would all be living in the temple as grihasta's or even as staunch monks?

 

Those who where there at the beginnig, no matter how austere or demanding the chores were ---are all glorious and en-nobled because of it.

 

When Srila Prabhupada arrived --what were the chances that he would find followers? Who would follow? Where did they come from? Those how were available to do the work --had a grand aggenda that was beyond their anticipation --until Srila Prabhupada arrived and were given instruction as to what to do; they were neophytes too.

 

My own experience is filled with 'being smashed' many times. It is of no matter --it is par for the course that comrades-in-arms would be lost to the wayside. Just as the rank-and-file do not fraternise with the comissioned officers before/during/after the war --so similarly we were there for our own reconciliation/reformation/spiritual practices; we were pursuing Yoga in a proper setting from proper authorities and a time that our youth afforded.

 

For that we have been made glorious [whist all the secular world headed toward . . . ].

We knew that it was: 'Every man for himself' --we detested the bogus yogi(s) [false messiah; cult-leaders] of the 1960's --we knew to watch out for fallen devotees within our midsts --so we policed ourselves.

This sort of self-policing of neopyhte newbees within the ashram is ironically the source of so-called impersonal mal-treatment within Iskcon. But we were all without a true academic regimen with strict oversight & standardised periodic review/exams/scoring. Iskcon was designed as any Ashram is: Show-up, stay awhile, pray-learn-revitalise; and then leave until nexr season. But it was so idealic that in-house faults were too intrusive to bare; and life-long ashram life was too ideal to maintain.

 

After living outside the ashrama --We hid our personal POV grassroots protestations of the Karmi-Industrial-Complexes to avoid negative social back-fire against our local Hare Krishna Temples and our sannyasis.

 

We've defered defense of Vedantic Wisdom to providence and others who were in orthodox good standing --those currently living within the auspices of the ashram/Temple life --now these posting borne of Gurukripa etal, places our supposed lack of living a monk's life on the shoulders of other's actions.

 

HH Satsvarupa Goswami's story is a path not well traveled by many --we learn from his fall down(s)! It is for posterity that all permutations of a subject be explored and thus enlighten us of what to fear; so as to escape maya un-equivically.

[andy108]

 

So, everyone thinks that if Srila Prabhupada's vision was carried on after his departure perfectly 'to the letter' --then we would all be living in the temple as grihasta's or even as staunch monks?

 

I can't speak for "everyone", but it seems clear to this One that if His Instructions were carried on after his departure, without changing the letters of those instructions, then it would be His Vision, and by extension the Lord's, that would be carried on. Elementary logic to me and Common Sense. I mean who's vision do you think following His instructions would carry on?

 

You seem largely uneducated about His vision for Grhastas. Their living in temples was an emergency measure that He always discouraged if a suitable alternative could be arranged. There is an abundance of instruction on the matter. Temples = staunch monks (celibate students and older renunciates) for residents, that gels with his Vision for sure.

 

I noticed you had time to make a poor and transparent attempt on another thread to mischaracterize statements of mine, and try to paint me into a box labled "confused and hypocritical".

 

It would be more productive for you to take that time to learn what Srila Prabhupada's instructions actually were, and then an intelligent conversation might ensue. It is a matter of record, and as you point out, it was not so easy to get to the truth of these things while you were in the trenches due to the fogs of war obscuring his Vani.

 

Otherwise your reminiscing and take on the old days was quite interesting, thanks for sharing.

[Kulapavana]

Suresh dasa: "Gurukrpa’s collecting techniques were so hard-driving aggressive, that he and his party single-handedly receive the credit for ISKCON being kicked out of Japan and removed from that country. Apparently there were also someforms of hush-hush illegal activity as well, and even possibly murder involved in the collecting of that money in Japan. So why give him all the credit and praise for building two temples that were built based not on the love and kindness that ISKCON portrays itself to represent (hiding behind its books and philosophy), but on force, coercion, and pile-driving cruelty to the devotees and non-devotees alike. "

-------------------------

 

Many devotees are eager to re-write the past, and whitewash all the dirt of the early period in order to build a legend of the 'Golden Age' of Iskcon in order to promote their own agenda. It is the sober accounts like the one above which allow us to separate the facts from the fiction.

[suchandra]

 

Suresh dasa: "Gurukrpa’s collecting techniques were so hard-driving aggressive, that he and his party single-handedly receive the credit for ISKCON being kicked out of Japan and removed from that country. Apparently there were also someforms of hush-hush illegal activity as well, and even possibly murder involved in the collecting of that money in Japan. So why give him all the credit and praise for building two temples that were built based not on the love and kindness that ISKCON portrays itself to represent (hiding behind its books and philosophy), but on force, coercion, and pile-driving cruelty to the devotees and non-devotees alike. "

-------------------------

 

Many devotees are eager to re-write the past, and whitewash all the dirt of the early period in order to build a legend of the 'Golden Age' of Iskcon in order to promote their own agenda. It is the sober accounts like the one above which allow us to separate the facts from the fiction.

 

Good point, I remember being on travelling sankirtan when we received a phonecall from our GBC. He ordered us to steal a church bell from a graveyard chapel. We went there at 3.30 am and climbed up the steeple and actually took the real heavy chapel bell to our sankirtan van. We were so naive and phoned up that GBC if we should go on bookdistribution now in that very city?

When you serve the devil, you don't need to wait for heaven to receive your reward. This is the problem even today, people follow blindly.

However, Prabhupada says hundreds of times, one should be intelligent enough not to be induced by leaders telling you the wrong thing.

[Kulapavana]

 

When you serve the devil, you don't need to wait for heaven to receive your reward. This is the problem even today, people follow blindly.

However, Prabhupada says hundreds of times, one should be intelligent enough not to be induced by leaders telling you the wrong thing.

 

Amen to that, brother...

 

Fortunately (at least in most places), the current batch of devotees is not as gullible as the first one. There is still some cheating and abuse but it is far less frequent and a lot more subtle.

[Beggar]

Try Associating with Saintly Persons BY: GURUKRPA DASA

Feb 17, THAILAND (SUN) — According to Suresh Prabhu, who I do not know, he is assuming he knows what happened in Japan, although he was not there, and he never came, and he was never on our party. He appears to have anger issues with me and others, and also with Srila Prabhupada.

Our philosophy is we are servants of the servant. I served Prabhupada, and he served his Spiritual Master, and in this way we are serving the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna!

Whatever money was raised was 100% given to Srila Prabhupada, and was never kept by myself or by Srila Prabhupada, who used every ounce of his being, what to speak of his money for the service of Bhagavan Sri Krishna.

You have said we were too cheap to take care of the devotees with hotels and other amenities. It would be one thing if I were living in some comfortable condition while the others suffered. Yasodanandana and I slept, bathed, and ate exactly the same as the other men. We took our inspiration from the Six Goswamis, who slept under different trees with no residence!

In Japan many men came and left. I never hear any of them complaining, as they know that every penny they collected went to Srila Prabhupada. What right do you have to write and say these men were abused when none of them say it to me? I am eternally indebted to them for their helping me to carry out Srila Prabhupada's order, just as Srila Prabhupada feels indebted to all his disciples for helping him to serve his Guru Maharaja.

You should get your facts straight.

Then to bring up my step-daughter is ridiculous, as maybe she is referring to her natural father, not to me.

You are obviously disgruntled, unhappy, and are an unrealized person. Maybe if you'd spend a few Kartiks in Vrindaban doing parikram and associating with saintly persons, your attitude would change?

Your well-wisher,

Gurukrpa

[Kulapavana]

"Stringman" - Neil Young

You can say the soul is gone

And the feeling is just not there

Not like it was so long ago.

 

On the empty page before you

You can fill in what you care

Try to make it new before you go.

 

Take the simple case of the sarge

Who can't go back to war

'Cause the hippies

tore down everything

that he was fighting for...

[melvin]

 

"Stringman" - Neil Young

 

You can say the soul is gone

And the feeling is just not there

Not like it was so long ago.

 

On the empty page before you

You can fill in what you care

Try to make it new before you go.

 

Take the simple case of the sarge

Who can't go back to war

'Cause the hippies

tore down everything

that he was fighting for...

 

That song reminds me of Woodstock 1969. I was only in high-school then when my biological brother(manav) and his friends were smoking ganja and imbibing amphetamines. Oh, how I love to hear the drums in "Soul Sacrifice" accompanied by the electrifying sounds coming from Santana`s vina. The song, " With a little help from my friends," sang by Joe Cocker were intoxicating. & yet during those times I didn`t even know Krsna even existed. It was Only Ten Years After(1979) that a childhood friend revealed to me the long and winding road which was the Hare Krsna maha mantra. Woodstock `69 was Prabhupada written all over.

[Kulapavana]

sometimes I think we also got intoxicated after we joined the movement... intoxicated with our new false egos... and thus we have forgotten why we joined in the first place...

 

And then there was this:

 

Take the simple case of bhakta Joe

Who can't go back to war

'Cause the gurus

tore down everything

that he was fighting for...

[Beggar]

 

 

Left in the Dust

BY: SURESH DASA

 

Feb 18, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA (SUN) —

Dear Gurukrpa Prabhu, I apologize if it seems my facts are inaccurate, as you contend. I did not serve on your particular Sankirtan party in Japan; however I have spoken a number of times with one of your top collectors who did serve on your party in Japan. He related to me that you did, in fact, fry many of the devotees on your party, driving them to leave ISKCON and destroying their spiritual life and happiness in the process of your money collecting efforts for Srila Prabhupada. This is what I based my story on.

 

Regarding your contention that when I spoke to your step-daughter, she was referring to her natural father, and not you - she iN fact stated that it was her father, whose name is Gurukrpa, who is suffering from a heroin addiction. What I left out was that she said her father, Gurukrpa (forgive me if I am mixing you up with someone else with your same name), served in Vietnam, and suffers regular nightmares from witnessing the horrors of war. If that is you, I do not fault you Prabhu, but in fact sympathize with your suffering from what you saw and experienced. At the same time, Srila Prabhupada stated his disciples are to observe “No Intoxication”, so how can I offer you respect or follow you as a leader of the devotees if that principle is not being observed?

 

Then there is the reality that in fact, your party was kicked out of Japan. No one really has ever been allowed to know the facts behind why you and your members were forcibly removed from Japan, or what you did to deserve it. There has always been some talk about the “Pens”, but no one has ever been allowed to know the whole, true story.

 

There is only the hearsay evidence I have found on the Internet in searching about the pens: “Siddha’s men were also involved with Gurukrpa in collecting money for building a temple for Srila Prabhupada from stolen Japanese pens”. I have heard about the pens many before, and the devotee from your party also confirms that pens were involved.

 

It is not abnormal that many illicit dealings were involved back at that time by many of the sankirtan collecting parties, all over the world, not just yours. We all did it. Whoever could steal the most money and turn it over to Srila Prabhupada seemed to receive the greatest glory and accolades in ISKCON at that time, so who wouldn’t do it? Somebody told us that we should distribute books and collect laxmi for ISKCON “by hook or by crook”, so we made that our anthem. Any means was acceptable in collecting for ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada. It was really a competition back then to see who could be the greatest swindler and rip-off artist. It seemed to be authorized from the highest sources. My only question is what does that have to do with Bhakti yoga, or the principles in our books that we stand behind and seem to represent? If that makes me an offensive devotee, I truly apologize. Even after thinking about it for decades now, I can’t come to a resolution in my mind how our actions were moral, socially correct, or a solution to Kali-yuga and the present ills of society.

 

I remember in the L.A. Temple, as an example, one year during the Christmas Marathon we all collected money for “UNICEF”. The Sankirtan leaders created large coffee cans and painted them bright red. Then a large plastic laminated card was attached to each can. On the front of the card was a picture of devotees feeding children in Mayapur. Above the picture in big, bold letters read "UNICEF", and in tiny, little, almost unreadable letters, “endorsed by”.

 

For the first couple of weeks of December that year we collected thousands of dollars, all over the L.A. area for “UNICEF”. Then before the last 10 days of the Christmas Marathon started, an urgent letter came from Srila Prabhupada, ordering us to stop collecting for “UNICEF” at once. I personally witnessed Tulsi dasa (then the Temple President) and Ramesvar read the letter from Srila Prabhupada, in Tulsi dasa’s office. They deliberated about it carefully, and then decided to keep the collecting going for the rest of the Christmas Marathon, since the last 10 days are the best. They filed away Srila Prabhupada’s letter, and after the marathon was conveniently over, they told all of us that Srila Prabhupada did not want us to collect in this way again. Of course, not one penny of the money we collected actually went to feed the poor or to UNICEF, but instead all of it went into the BBT coffers. I never said anything either, to any of the devotees at that time about what I saw. You kept your mouth shut back then if you wanted to stay alive. It was the way it was back then.

 

For a short time I collected on one of the New Vrndavan teams. I was told that Kirtanananda Swami intended to break all of the regulative principles to build the Palace of Gold, because that is how the great cathedrals of Europe were built. I personally could not get behind breaking the regulative principles to build a temple, so I left that party. I was kicked off the Radha Damodhar party as well, because I refused to rip off my parents.

 

I personally witnessed devotees such as Tripurari doing the “Change-Up”. The change-up was a popular collecting technique back then in ISKCON. You went up to a karmi and asked for change for a $20.00 bill. I watched Tripurari take the $20, give the man back $5 and a book, and then run down the street. I watched a female devotee in the Chicago airport steal a man’s wallet and then run into the women’s bathroom and not give it back.

 

I am not singling you out, Gurukrpa Prabhu. It was common for all of us to do what you did, and I did it as well. All I was upset about was how the individual devotees on your party were treated in the collecting of your money, based on what one of the biggest collectors from your party told me about his experience and how he feels, even today. I remember living in the kinds of conditions like you described too, and that’s why I wrote. I never said anything about staying in fancy hotels. I asked you why your devotees couldn’t have been put up in the cheapest MOTEL room. Back then you could have packed 10 devotees into a tiny motel room for maybe $10 a night. You would only have spent $1 per day on the typical devotee’s well being, plus food of course, instead of sleeping on the ground and bathing in rivers. Couldn’t you have offered your devotees in your charge a warm room and a hot shower in return for their free service to ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada? Especially, when the average sankirtan devotee collector was never going to see the Krishna Balaram Mandir, be allowed to visit Mayapur, see or interact with Srila Prabhupada personally, or enjoy private quarters at any of those places.

 

I guess that’s what my beef is with ISKCON leadership. They ground us into the dust to collect their money, and then became millionaires themselves, with private bank accounts, and cushy lifestyles, while the average devotee was left in the dust with nothing.

 

[suchandra]

 

 

They ground us into the dust to collect their money, and then became millionaires themselves, with private bank accounts, and cushy lifestyles, while the average devotee was left in the dust with nothing.

 

 

This is right we were told not to spent even one cent for owerselves. In the evening in winter we went to the vicarage of a village and asked the priest if the four of us could spend the night in a room of the community center. Sometimes this took hours till finally some priest agreed. Early in the morning we went to the bakery and asked for free bread, etc etc. Then the GBC forbade us to eat karmi bread and we had to eat granola for years and nothing else, no cooked food. When going from door to door we not only had to sell books but also ask for fruits and vegetables. As soon there was a bill for dentist or shoes, we were told to ask our parents for money and so on and so forth. What came out was that the leaders were all such idiots that all the money was spent in a foolish way, they couldnt figure to make something good with all this laxmi.

[theist]

 

Thereis only the hearsay evidence I have found on the Internet in searchingabout the pens: “Siddha’s men were also involved with Gurukrpa incollecting money for building a temple for Srila Prabhupada from stolenJapanese pens”

 

This is a 100% bhogus statement. The idea of Siddha collaberating with the likes of Gurukripa is laughable.

[bhaktajan]

Gurukrpa’s collecting techniques were so hard-driving aggressive, that he and his party single-handedly receive the credit for ISKCON being kicked out of Japan.

 

BONSAI!

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

10 years ago my ko-sensei from the west village visited Japan and brought me back a Gita --I gave him £ 50 cash to take with him. This same man told me he had seen Srila Prabhupada in the 60/70's.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Ya'll think this is SUN article whole truthfull without being covered by (re-)material-conditioning and without ulterior motivation???

 

This is Pathetic!!!

 

You are all exploring the varigated forms of ego-based self-lamentation & Fear & Fearsomeness!!!

 

Last week the mayor of Los Angeles California said that in the city of Los Angeles the crime wave is now the lowest since 1950's --That's an unmitigated lie [purposefull or insanely].

 

Metally challanged [retarded] people are being executed for crimes [news out of Texas USA] and there are those protesting this --"only 'sane' people commit crimes" and thus should be treated as everyone else is.

 

You MUST count your blessings ---That's as good as it gets.

 

If you are not one of "the beautiful People" --too bad!!!

 

You should have gone to Vietnam? Height Ashbury? Goa?

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

What was your SURESH DASA loss?

 

He is alighting on a 1,000 points of light in his article of Life of a neophyte monk-wanna-be [and/or cult follower] and now here mocks austerities of youthfull brahmacarya life!!!

 

Selfless service misgivings???

[stonehearted]

 

This is a 100% bhogus statement. The idea of Siddha collaberating with the likes of Gurukripa is laughable.

 

Indeed! I can tell you definitively that Siddha was no friend to Gurukripa and his techniques. I spent a lot of time with him during those years, and we sometimes discussed some of these things. This "hearsay" from Suresh is one of the most bizarre things I've heard. Perhaps Suresh had missed some of his meds the day he heard someone say something like that. (Yeah, that sounds mean, doesn't it?)

[Kulapavana]

 

He is alighting on a 1,000 points of light in his article of Life of a neophyte monk-wanna-be [and/or cult follower] and now here mocks austerities of youthfull brahmacarya life!!!

 

The simple truth is that the techniques used by Gurukripa and other Iskcon misleaders were NOT SUSTAINABLE and DESTRUCTIVE. They have burned out the public and the devotees alike, totally ruining the image of our movement and with it a chance to appeal to a lot of people. Some of these guys comitted all kinds of heavy duty criminal activities, up to and including murder of fellow devotees. Back in those days we were a CULT, plain and simple, and I would not have sent my son or a daughter to serve under such criminals.

 

When I was leading sankirtan in Poland in the early 80's our devotees were well fed, slept in motels or campgrounds, and did not have to worry about dishonest collection techniques. We did not burn out anybody and did not turn the public against our movement. Only a total idiot would think that ripping people off on the street is good for our movement.

[bhaktajan]

SURESH DASA vision and article speak of the "Dreadfull" side of life.

 

Poor boy, how he has suffered.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Iskcon sufferred via two types of scandels:

A) Child abuse by tudors &

B) Kirtananda/Bhavananda's et al ignoble outtings.

 

Why would this affect our outlook?

 

Parallel to Iskcon's year's of mal-content society proved to mock every humble kid [and yes, dopey Vaishnavas too] --rap music, Politicians' impeachments; and especially the mis-management of every sector of life's artha,kama and definition of dharma.

 

All else was preserved and unaffected through time.

 

Your problems are based on avoiding offenses by karmis --that type of undignified imposition of listening to a karmi/Christian/atheist/hedonist/secular hindu/mayavadi-hindu know-it-all/carnivor college professors of philosophy --to collectively "not disturb the minds of the ignorant" has been observed to strictly to our relief.

 

But such indifference is actually born of a preverted contempt --that we are comfortable with.

 

Let the generals learn arabic and the koran --they earned the responsiblities and we are mocking society while pursueing the karmi status quo ourselves.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

For God's sake remember the fate of the guy that wrote the song lyrics:

 

"It's getting better all the time . . . Better, Better, Better,

getting Better all the time . . . " --John Lennon of the Beatles --was assassinated.

 

Ya'll deserve a wee bit better, No?

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

For God's sake remember the fate of the guy whose grandfather was a USA 1930's Alchohol prohibition bootlegger mobster/movie moghal; whose father became the first Catholic US Presidents; whose own life illustrates a re-born yogi in a house of aristocracy, gets the best education, best wealthy beautiful Ivy-league Blond haired Wife living in the North Wall Street area of New York City ---only to drive an airplane into the ocean along with his Wife and sister-in-law while on his way to an enclave of similar wellborn & bred Highbrows: John F Kennedy Jr.

 

Ya'll deserve a wee bit better, No?

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Ya'll deserve a wee bit Idiotcracy? Or are you pertrified of the fullfledged implementation of ebonics? Just in your corner of the race?

[Sonic Yogi]

These whiners however refuse to admit that in fact they all had the option to walk away at any time they wanted.

 

I did.

 

In L.A. in 1975 they were sending me out on the streets of the greater Los Angeles area as Santa Claus collecting money and handing out candy canes.

 

I decided I didn't want to do that anymore so I just packed my bags, walked out of the temple and went to a temple where I wasn't being asked to do something that I didn't want to do.

 

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the whiners.

 

They were also fanatics and that is why they stayed under them conditions.

Otherwise, they could have just walked off any time they wanted to.

 

There was never any physical restraint imposed upon any of them.

They were free to walk off any time the chose to.

[Beggar]

 

These whiners however refuse to admit that in fact they all had the option to walk away at any time they wanted...

 

...They were also fanatics and that is why they stayed under them conditions.

Otherwise, they could have just walked off any time they wanted to...

 

...There was never any physical restraint imposed upon any of them.

They were free to walk off any time the chose to.

...They were also fanatics

...They were also fanatics

...They were also fanatics

...They were also fanatics:mad2::mad2:

 

Five of these - = Who knows the answer?

[Kulapavana]

 

These whiners however refuse to admit that in fact they all had the option to walk away at any time they wanted.

 

 

And the apologists refuse to admit that what was going on back then was a huge mistake that destroyed credibility of our movement. The lesson of the Baghbazar temple was not only lost, but compounded by building opulent temples with dirty money.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

And the apologists refuse to admit that what was going on back then was a huge mistake that destroyed credibility of our movement. The lesson of the Baghbazar temple was not only lost, but compounded by building opulent temples with dirty money.

We all saw many new devotees come and go in ISKCON.

ISKCON might have been austere, but one thing for sure is that anyone had to option to just walk out the door any time the wanted and in fact many did.

 

These whiners who complain about years of hardship have nobody to blame but themselves.

 

I did what I was willing to do and I did not do what I was unwilling to do.

 

I worked Los Angeles airport, Las Vegas airport, places all around L.A. and Chicago for several years because I understand that book distribution was the top priority of Srila Prabhupada and in fact it was book distrubution that gets credit for my coming to the movement and finding out about Krishna.

 

I freely moved around from one temple to another at my will.

I was still accepted in ISKCON and even received brahminical initiation under those conditions.

 

If these whiners were being honest they would have to admit they had the option to walk away any time they wanted to.

 

They stayed because they believed in what they were doing.

[Kulapavana]

 

If these whiners were being honest they would have to admit they had the option to walk away any time they wanted to.

 

They stayed because they believed in what they were doing.

 

Duh! What you missed in their 'whining' is that IT DID NOT HAVE TO BE THIS HARD OR THAT CROOKED. Sankirtan was austere enough without all these extra idiocies imposed by most Iskcon misleaders.

 

If the sankirtan and fundraising methods were PROPER we would have avoided burning out both the public and the book distributors. If Gurukripa was treating soldiers in Vietnam the same way he was treating his sankirtan men he would have been shot by his own men, plain and simple. That happened many times to guys like him over there.

 

 

Yes, we need to blame the simple minded and naive rank and file devotees like Suresh for trusting Iskcon leaders appointed by Prabhupada and for beieving the garbage these people fed them.

[Kulapavana]

From Krsna Book:

 

"When the brahmana came to accuse the King of Dvaraka for the ninth time, Arjuna happened to be present with Krsna. On hearing that a brahmana was accusing the King of not properly protecting him, Arjuna became inquisitive and approached the brahmana. He said, "My dear brahmana, why do you say that there are no proper ksatriyas to protect the citizens of your country? Is there not even someone who can pretend to be a ksatriya, who can carry a bow and arrow at least to make a show of protection? Do you think that all the royal personalities in this country simply engage in performing sacrifices with the brahmanas but have no chivalrous power?" Thus Arjuna indicated that ksatriyas should not sit back comfortably and engage only in performing Vedic rituals. Rather, they must be very chivalrous in protecting the citizens. Brahmanas, being engaged in spiritual activities, are not expected to do anything which requires physical endeavor. Therefore, they need to be protected by the ksatriyas so that they will not be disturbed in the execution of their higher occupational duties.

"If the brahmanas feel unwanted separation from their wives and children," Arjuna continued, "and the ksatriya kings do not take care of them, then such ksatriyas are to be considered no more than stage players. In dramatic performances in the theater, an actor may play the part of a king, but no one expects any benefits from such a make-believe king. Similarly, if the king or the executive head of a state cannot give protection to the head of the social structure, he is considered merely a bluffer. Such executive heads simply live for their own livelihood while occupying exalted posts as chiefs of state. My lord, I promise that I shall give protection to your children, and if I am unable to do so, then I shall enter into blazing fire so that the sinful contamination which has infected me will be counteracted."

[andy108]

 

Duh! What you missed in their 'whining' is that IT DID NOT HAVE TO BE THIS HARD OR THAT CROOKED. Sankirtan was austere enough without all these extra idiocies imposed by most Iskcon misleaders.

 

I don't think Sonic misses anything. He is pointing out that whining is useless, and counterproductive. And perhaps a whiner could take a lesson from the example of Sonic, that it was there own choice to be cheated and stay that way.

 

It DID "HAVE TO BE THAT HARD AND THAT CROOKED" because what occured at the time was the measure of the karmic desire of the cheaters and cheated involved, and tempered with the mercy gained due to whatever sincerety was there to please Prabhupada, even if it was just for personal gain. Or did you miss that part of the ABC's of using suffering to our advantage and see that it is Krsna's mercy and whatever level of suffering we endure is actually minimized by him because it was supposed to be 10x worse?

 

It would be more "proper" for you to say that "IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THAT HARD OR THAT CROOKED AGAIN."

 

Or even more "proper" if you could state with conviction that "IT WILL NOT BE THAT HARD OR CROOKED IF YOU FOLLOW MY LEAD."

 

And then prove it.

 

 

If the sankirtan and fundraising methods were PROPER we would have avoided burning out both the public and the book distributors. If Gurukripa was treating soldiers in Vietnam the same way he was treating his sankirtan men he would have been shot by his own men, plain and simple. That happened many times to guys like him over there.

 

So, do something about it and stop whining.

 

 

Yes, we need to blame the simple minded and naive rank and file devotees like Suresh for trusting Iskcon leaders appointed by Prabhupada and for beieving the garbage these people fed them.

 

Of course your whining rant would not be complete without an oblique jab at Srila Prabhupada. That kind of thing is actually what prevents you from being able to do better than what was done. You need his mercy, but won't get it by criticizing him.

 

According to your own confession, you didn't trust the leaders he appointed, and refused to do anything suggested that didn't ring true to your conscience.

 

The nature of the guna and karma you brought to the table was different than others. Variety is present always. If someone told you a girl was a boy, you didn't say to yourself, "well Srila Prabhupada appointed this leader so a girl must be a boy."

 

But you blame Srila Prabhupada for the fact that another person didn't have your common sense? Is that a way to encourage them to take personal accountability for their brainlessness? How will they ever get to be as savvy as you if you blame their brainlessness on someone else? Or would you rather them stay little naive mushrooms in the dark for you to pick at will for your own purposes?

 

Sonic wants them to get over their victim trip. Not remain mushrooms for anyone's fantasy.

[Kulapavana]

 

IThe nature of the guna and karma you brought to the table was different than others. Variety is present always. If someone told you a girl was a boy, you didn't say to yourself, "well Srila Prabhupada appointed this leader so a girl must be a boy."

 

But you blame Srila Prabhupada for the fact that another person didn't have your common sense? Is that a way to encourage them to take personal accountability for their brainlessness? How will they ever get to be as savvy as you if you blame their brainlessness on someone else? Or would you rather them stay little naive mushrooms in the dark for you to pick at will for your own purposes?

 

Of course in your paranoia you see me blaming Prabhupada for lack of common sense among rank and file devotees

 

I was merely pointing out the reason many devotees trusted the leaders Prabhupada appointed: the very fact of them being placed in these positions by their guru. Of the 4 varnas 2 are very trusting: brahmanas and sudras.

 

Of course these devotees were often naive to the extreme. But that does not remove the responsibilities of Iskcon authorities for the abuses that took place on their watch. That is why I quoted the story of Arjuna's promise to the brahmana. If you are a king, you are partially responsible for both the good and the bad things that take place in your kingdom.

 

The kings in Dvaraka did not try to appease the brahmana who lost his children by saying:

 

"did you miss that part of the ABC's of using suffering to our advantage and see that it is Krsna's mercy and whatever level of suffering we endure is actually minimized by him because it was supposed to be 10x worse?"

 

They were kshatriyas, not crafty liars trying to excuse their own laziness and impotence by misapplying philosophical concepts. They knew it was their duty to protect their citizens.