More from Gurukrpa/Then More from Satsvarupa

[andy108]

 

Of course in your paranoia you see me blaming Prabhupada for lack of common sense among rank and file devotees

Not paranoia. Your record speaks for itself.

 

For instance, after you claim you are not blaming Prabhupada, for their lack of common sense, in the next sentence their lack of common sense is due to...

 

Not that they lack common sense, but...

 

I was merely pointing out the reason many devotees trusted the leaders Prabhupada appointed: the very fact of them being placed in these positions by their guru.

So it is the very fact Prabhupada placed them in their positions that they lacked common sense and trusted them when they were told black was white.

 

Just as I said before. If you never admit you have a problem, you will never get past it.

 

 

Of course these devotees were often naive to the extreme. But that does not remove the responsibilities of Iskcon authorities for the abuses that took place on their watch.

What a short memory. Who was suggesting that the poor leadership be absolved responsibility?

 

This whole conversation is based on you claiming Sonic was blaming the whiners (victims). I pointed out he was actually trying to empower them by showing them the reality of an alternative.

 

Of course you can't just come in and say, "Good point", but must fabricate a straw man position... "But that does not remove the responsibilities of Iskcon authorities for the abuses that took place on their watch."... which no one even advocated.

 

So, why didn't you step up in the past you big Ksyatria you? And save people from their karma?

 

I used the scripturally backed fact of life that when a devotee does actually suffer, and Big King Kulapavana wasn't there to prevent it, that it was supposed to be 10x worse.

 

I stated this because you took the irrational position that something that happened did not have to happen as it happened.

 

I offered the rational alternatives listed in my post, that you could try to arrange for the protection in the future and prevent the same mistake.

 

And somehow you twist this to infer that I absolve Victimizers of their responsibilities?

 

Don't you have some Karmi scientists to schedule lunch breaks for O Mighty King Kula?

[Kulapavana]

 

I used the scripturally backed fact of life that when a devotee does actually suffer, and Big King Kulapavana wasn't there to prevent it, that it was supposed to be 10x worse.

 

 

I did not see the scriptural backing for that saying, but that is a different matter.

 

As to the merit of the conversation: devotees under my care were never cheated or mistreated. I did not demand from others what I did not expect to give myself.

 

You ask: "Who was suggesting that the poor leadership be absolved responsibility?"

 

Not me. Leaders must be held responsible for what happens on their watch. All the way to the top.

[Sonic Yogi]

It's a damn shame these people have to whine about their hardships in ISKCON.

Their reward is so great they cannot imagine, but then they want to drop down to the mental platform and whine about all their lost material advancement that was wasted in service in ISKCON.

 

I remember breaking ice off the top of the water barrel on the Tennessee farm to get water to bath standing outside in freezing temperature.

 

Am I gonna whine about it?

No.

I accepted that austerity willingly because austerity was the wealth of the brahmana.

[andy108]

 

You ask: "Who was suggesting that the poor leadership be absolved responsibility?"

 

Yeah HELLO! I asked that because you directly implied that someone other than yourself did suggest this and then you proceeded to use it as a straw man to beat up, while avoiding dealing with what I DID SUGGEST such as the error in your attack on Sonic's understanding of the situation, as if he was simply blaming the whiners while letting the leaders off the hook, the error in your thinking that the past can ever be "different", and all your other erroneous mental postures.

 

 

As to the merit of the conversation: devotees under my care were never cheated or mistreated. I did not demand from others what I did not expect to give myself.

 

Why does the merit of the conversation have to begin and end with YOU?

 

This conversation has a lot more merit than as a vehicle for your own self glorification.

 

But I guess I can't expect someone so self absorbed to see past that, so good for you King Kula. You just mommy up those whiny victims and stomp those leaders. See what kind of Kingdom you end up with. Oh yeah, King of Karmi Lab rats (scientists) in Bumblesville North Carolina.

[Kulapavana]

 

Why does the merit of the conversation have to begin and end with YOU?

 

This conversation has a lot more merit than as a vehicle for your own self glorification.

 

Excuse me for responding to your personal attacks on me.

[Kulapavana]

 

It's a damn shame these people have to whine about their hardships in ISKCON.

 

Yes, they should be happy for being screwed over by the leaders of this movement and subjected to all kinds of inhumane treatment. Should the abused women and kids be happy too? Yey! I only got raped once! I should have been raped 10 times! My child has been subjected to only 3 years of nightmares in the Danudhar's gurukula! what a blessing! He should have suffered like that for 30 years... lucky him...

 

Very few people complain about plain austerities, and those who are can be called whiners. It is the ABUSE that is the issue here.

[andy108]

 

Excuse me for responding to your personal attacks on me.

 

So correcting someone's mistakes in a spiritual discussion is a personal attack?

 

I don't think so.

 

It feels like an attack if you are too-self absorbed and take things personally.

 

Now if that feels like an attack it is not.

 

I am self absorbed to the extent I am but I know it and deal with it.

 

You seem oblivious to your own, and that doesn't do you any good if you really want to have a spiritual discussion.

 

I am only this blunt with you because you constantly criticise Srila Prabhupada and his system, otherwise our relationship might be quite different.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Yes, they should be happy for being screwed over by the leaders of this movement and subjected to all kinds of inhumane treatment.

 

They never screwed me over.

I wouldn't let 'em.

 

Like P.T. Barnum said "there is a sucker born every minute".

 

In the situation of the cheaters and the cheated, the sucker is the one who got cheated.

 

I never surrendered my own instincts over to the GBC or any ISKCON leader.

 

If I smelled a skunk, I just went the other direction.

 

Too bad some people refused to think for themselves and got taken advantage of.

 

It's never a good idea to not think for yourself.

[andy108]

 

Yes, they should be happy for being screwed over by the leaders of this movement and subjected to all kinds of inhumane treatment. Should the abused women and kids be happy too? Yey! I only got raped once! I should have been raped 10 times! My child has been subjected to only 3 years of nightmares in the Danudhar's gurukula! what a blessing! He should have suffered like that for 30 years... lucky him...

 

Very few people complain about plain austerities, and those who are can be called whiners. It is the ABUSE that is the issue here.

Abuse is an issue and must be addressed.

 

The fact that some victims seem only capable of whining and not get past their victimization is another issue to address.

 

Whining is not bad inherently, it is an emotional expression of helplessness, dread and pain.

 

Why can't you see both issues, instead of saying Abuse is THE issue?

 

It might seem easier to stem the tide of abuse by arresting those Abusers from their ability to be in society.

 

But if the victim is not healed of their victim mentality they WILL DRAW ANOTHER ABUSER TO THEM.

 

Also, blaming the system that a Victimizer abused for purposes of abusing their victim, is like blaming the victim for being abused. The system was a victim of the victimizer because the victimizer does that with anything.

 

Anything but pure unalloyed devotional activity will bring some subtle or gross violence to another living entity.

 

Srila Prabhupada instituted protocols of Daiva Varnasrama Dharma within Iskcon, and those who will follow THAT SYSTEM will not be creating future sinful reactions. In DVD Yoga Maya takes over for the neophyte, and if the neophyte is purely following, all apparent sense gratification is taken into account as the fan is still spinning though unplugged.

 

Change one instruction, twist one order, and the equation is spoiled and a mundane situation will occur with resulting sinful reactions and abuses.

 

Srila Prabhupada did not set up a mundane institutional system. It is only our misinterpretation of what he set up, and actions based on that, which create a mundane institution full of abuse.

 

To say otherwise would be to reject him as Maha Bhagavat Acarya, representative of Sri Govindaji AND Sri Madana Mohan Vigrahas.

[bhaktajan]

 

We all saw many new devotees come and go in ISKCON.

 

. . . anyone had to option to just walk out the door any time the wanted and in fact many did.

 

I did what I was willing to do and I did not do what I was unwilling to do.

 

. . . I understand that book distribution was the top priority of Srila Prabhupada and in fact it was book distrubution that gets credit for my coming to the movement and finding out about Krishna.

I freely moved around from one temple to another at my will.

I was still accepted in ISKCON

. . . admit they had the option to walk away any time they wanted to.

 

They stayed because they believed in what they were doing.

ISKCON is austere & where we learned "What is austerity?"

"In fact it was book distrubution that gets credit for my coming to the movement and finding out about Krishna." {ME TOO!!!!}

 

"I freely moved around from one temple to another at my will."--{ME TOO!!!!}

 

they believed in what they were doing --{this is known as "vi-jnana" --realised knowledge}

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Time to go back to school and start fresh with a new clean slate!

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by Kulapavana

...The lesson of the Baghbazar temple was not only lost, but compounded by building opulent temples with dirty money.

Why are you now changing the topic? Ex-President Bush is out! All this new dirty money is coming from OUR new world leaders --who set the standard for all the world to pursue.

[andy108]

 

It DID "HAVE TO BE THAT HARD AND THAT CROOKED" because what occured at the time was the measure of the karmic desire of the cheaters and cheated involved, and tempered with the mercy gained due to whatever sincerety was there to please Prabhupada, even if it was just for personal gain. Or did you miss that part of the ABC's of using suffering to our advantage and see that it is Krsna's mercy and whatever level of suffering we endure is actually minimized by him because it was supposed to be 10x worse?

 

 

I used the scripturally backed fact of life that when a devotee does actually suffer, and Kulapavana wasn't there to prevent it, that it was supposed to be 10x worse.

 

I did not see the scriptural backing for that saying, but that is a different matter.

Teachings of Queen Kunti. Ch.8 :

Similarly, we have to suffer for our past deeds. That is a fact, and we cannot avoid it. But karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām (Brahma-saṁhitā 5.54): the sufferings of those who engage in devotional service in Kṛṣṇa consciousness are minimized. For example, one may have been destined to be killed, but instead of being killed with a knife, he may instead get some little cut on his finger. In this way, for those who engage in devotional service, the reactions of past activities are minimized. Lord Kṛṣṇa assures His devotees, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi: “I shall give you protection from the reactions of sinful life.” So even if a devotee has a history of very grievous criminal activities behind him, instead of being killed he may only get a little cut on his finger.

[Kulapavana]

<CENTER>TEXT 54

 

</CENTER><CENTER>

 

yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma-

 

bandhanurupa-phala-bhajanam atanoti

 

karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam

 

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

</CENTER><CENTER>SYNONYMS

 

</CENTER>yah--He who (Govinda); tu--but; indra-gopam--to the small red insect called indragopa; atha va--or even; indram--to Indra, king of heaven; aho--oh; sva-karma--of one's own fruitive activities; bandha--bondage; anurupa--according to; phala--of reactions; bhajanam--enjoying or suffering; atanoti--bestows; karmani--all fruitive activities and their reactions; nirdahati--destroys; kintu--but; ca--also; bhakti-bhajam--of persons engaged in devotional service; govindam--Govinda; adi-purusam--the original person; tam--Him; aham--I; bhajami--worship.

<CENTER>TRANSLATION

 

</CENTER>I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all fruitive activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains for each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, of all those who walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their previously performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the name of indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Snla Sridhara Maharaja: The disappearance of the spiritual master is mentioned in the sastra with an example. The disciple is like a lotus. The spiritual master is like the water around the lotus, just as in a pond or a lake. Your late gurudeva's position is like water. And Krsna is like the sun. As long as the lotus is floating on the water, the sun will nourish the lotus. But if the water vanishes, that very sun will burn the lotus. Without water, the Krsna sun will burn the lotus. Without the help of the guru, the disciple is nowhere.

Without Guru, All is Void

Raghunatha Dasa Goswami has said, "In the absence of my gurudeva, Govardhana hill, the representation of Krsna Himself, seems to me just like a big python coming to devour me. And Radha-kunda, the holiest place of divinity of the Gaudiya-sampradaya, seems like a tiger's mouth coming to devour me. They are giving me so much excitement in the absence of my gurudeva, my dearest and highest spiritual guardian. My gurudeva, who has the most intense affection for me is not here? How can it be? Everything is void. All has vanished with his departure." Such a deep sense of separation will come in the heart of a sincere disciple.

 

[suchandra]

If People are Dishonest

BY: ARIJIT DAS

<center></center>

Feb 22, USA (SUN) — His Divine Grace is very clear when it comes to Governments, Managers, ABCs, GBCs, Liberals, Conservatives, etc.

<center>***</center> "In the modern setup of democratic states the citizens can have no cause for grievances, because the whole administration is conducted by the people themselves. If the people themselves are dishonest, the administrative machinery must be corrupt.

Although a damned government of the people may be given a good or fancy name, if the people are not good they cannot have a good government, regardless of which party governs the administration. Therefore good character is the first principle for good government".

[andy108]

 

<center>TEXT 54

 

</center><center>

 

yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma-

 

bandhanurupa-phala-bhajanam atanoti

 

karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam

 

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

</center><center>SYNONYMS

 

</center>yah--He who (Govinda); tu--but; indra-gopam--to the small red insect called indragopa; atha va--or even; indram--to Indra, king of heaven; aho--oh; sva-karma--of one's own fruitive activities; bandha--bondage; anurupa--according to; phala--of reactions; bhajanam--enjoying or suffering; atanoti--bestows; karmani--all fruitive activities and their reactions; nirdahati--destroys; kintu--but; ca--also; bhakti-bhajam--of persons engaged in devotional service; govindam--Govinda; adi-purusam--the original person; tam--Him; aham--I; bhajami--worship.

<center>TRANSLATION

 

</center>I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, who burns up to their roots all fruitive activities of those who are imbued with devotion and impartially ordains for each the due enjoyment of the fruits of one's activities, of all those who walk in the path of work, in accordance with the chain of their previously performed works, no less in the case of the tiny insect that bears the name of indragopa than in that of Indra, king of the devas.

 

Being that Lord Brahma is a past Acarya, and we are to understand the teachings of the past Acaryas through the Acarya the Lord sends to us, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami commented many times on this verse, each time indicating that WE KRSNA BHAKTAS were to understand "karmani nirdahatia"

in the following way.

 

 

From Lecture on Bhagavad Gita 4.14, Vrndavana 8/6/1974

 

In the Brahma-sūtra it is said... Brahma-saṁhitā. Yas tv indra-gopam athavendram aho sva-karma... Indra, indra-gopa, and the King Indra, both are named as indra. Yas tu indra-gopam atha mahā-indra sva-karma-phala-bhuk. Everyone is enjoying the resultant action of his karma. Yas tv indra-gopam athavendram aho sva-karma-bandhānurūpa-phala-bhājanam ātanoti [bs. 5.54]. Everyone is enjoying or suffering the resultant action of his karma. Sva-karma-phala-bhuk. But karmāṇi nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhājām [bs. 5.54]. But one who is in the devotional service, although he has to suffer the resultant action of his past karma, but that is reduced to the minimum. Karmāṇi nirdahati. Or practically no.

For whom? Bhakti-bhājām, those who are devotees, who are devotees. So who can understand Kṛṣṇa is not under the laws of any material nature? Only the bhaktas. Bhaktas can understand.

 

As for all the other times ACBSP confirmed this purport to the translation of BS 5.54, interested parties can search the database, there are too many to paste here.

[Sonic Yogi]

Sri Guru and His Grace ch. 8

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

 

 

Guru: More than God

 

To a disciple, his guru's position is Supreme, even more than God. This is said in the scriptures. The guru is more near and dear to us than God Himself. God has many things to deal with, but guru is concerned only with my welfare. The guru's position is more helpful to the disciple than God. If within your society, you want a natural growth of the disciple's regard for the guru and the Absolute Truth, such room must be allowed in your constitution, if the constitution is to live at all.

 

[Sonic Yogi]

Guru is not God but Guru controls God.

 

http://krishna.org/audio/MP3/SB_1-08-45___Mayapur_1974-10-25___Krishna_Wants_to_Be_Controlled.mp3

[Sonic Yogi]

My point is that Kulapavana seems to be of a mindset that Guru is of nominal importance and that he is more concerned with Krishna or Paramatma etc.

 

The problem is that this kind of thinking is just totally bogus beyond anything within the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

To Kulapavana the guru is just an option because Krishna is the real deal.

 

Well, what can we say?

That kind of thinking is just totally non-Vaishnava.

 

He can go on with his make believe guru who ripped of Srila Prabhupada for a millions of dollars.

 

But, he ain't foolin' nobody but himself.

 

He sure ain't fooling me.

 

Srila Prabhupada Ki-jaya!!!!!

[suchandra]

 

My point is that Kulapavana seems to be of a mindset that Guru is of nominal importance and that he is more concerned with Krishna or Paramatma etc.

 

The problem is that this kind of thinking is just totally bogus beyond anything within the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

To Kulapavana the guru is just an option because Krishna is the real deal.

 

Well, what can we say?

That kind of thinking is just totally non-Vaishnava.

 

He can go on with his make believe guru who ripped of Srila Prabhupada for a millions of dollars.

 

But, he ain't foolin' nobody but himself.

 

He sure ain't fooling me.

 

Srila Prabhupada Ki-jaya!!!!!

In any case, anyone who is not actually an acharya is "officiating" on behalf of the acharyas. Just like Srila Prabhupada says, the postman is a representative (ritvik) who delivers the message of the President of the Government, but the post man is not the President of the Government himself, he is merely the representative. So Srila Prabhupada says, you (neophytes) have to be bona fide post men (ritviks) and deliver the message of the Government, but the postman is not the President of the Government, he is merely the agent.

 

So we are supposed to be agents or post men for the real acharya, we are not supposed to claim to be the President ourselves -- simply because we are delivering the mail of the President's government.

 

Srila Prabhupada will live forever in his books, and we will utilize. Kula prabhu does not want to utilize the presence of the pure devotee in his books, so he is definately a follower of something else. And even if we wanted to debate with him, he never gives us any e-mail address of his bona fide acharya. He is simply hiding behind a saying that a bona fide guru has to be alive.

 

But why all the great acharyas say that even Lord Jesus can still absorb sins and give diksa? And what are present so called acharyas doing, they simply base their preaching upon Srila Prabhupada's work. In other words, Prabhupada is their siksa guru, they are not establishing a new chapter of Vaishnava siddhanta as real acharyas do. But want to be called acharyas, all complete bluffers.

[Beggar]

 

In any case, anyone who is not actually an acharya is "officiating" on behalf of the acharyas. Just like Srila Prabhupada says, the postman is a representative (ritvik) who delivers the message of the President of the Government, but the post man is not the President of the Government himself, he is merely the representative. So Srila Prabhupada says, you (neophytes) have to be bona fide post men (ritviks) and deliver the message of the Government, but the postman is not the President of the Government, he is merely the agent.

What if this paragraph is changed to read:

In any case, anyone who is actually a guru is "officiating" on behalf of Lord Krsna. Just like Srila Prabhupada says, the postman is a representative (guru) who delivers the message of the President of the Government (the Supreme Personality of Godhead), but the post man is not the President of the Government himself, he is merely the representative. So Srila Prabhupada says, one has to be bona fide post men and deliver the message of the Government, but the postman is not the President of the Government, he is merely the agent.

 

 

But why all the great acharyas say that even Lord Jesus can still absorb sins and give diksa?

 

Why not just stick with Churchianity? There's a lot less social ostracism.

 

 

 

...And what are present so called acharyas doing, they simply base their preaching upon Srila Prabhupada's work. In other words, Prabhupada is their siksa guru, they are not establishing a new chapter of Vaishnava siddhanta as real acharyas do. But want to be called acharyas, all complete bluffers.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja explains that there can be a difference between a guru who gives Hare Nama and diksa and an "acarcya" of an institution.

He also explains that there are great gurus and minor gurus, that, "sometimes the Ganga is wide and sometimes it is narrow like a little stream, in the Himalyas, but it is still the Ganga."

 

But Sats, he aint the Ganga at all, believe it.

[Kulapavana]

 

He can go on with his make believe guru who ripped of Srila Prabhupada for a millions of dollars.

 

Why do you spew lies like that? Have I ever indicated that Harikesa has been any kind of authority for me after he separated himself from our sampradaya? And who made him an authority in Iskcon in the first place? Not me.

 

As to my understanding of the guru tattva... it is very much based on the expositions of Srila Sridhar Maharaja, as he became my siksa guru in the late 80's, a decade before my diksa guru Harikesa fell down. I also consider Srila Narayana Maharaja to be my siksa guru on the matters of rasa tattva.

 

Since the Saraswata sampradaya believes in the line of siksa gurus, I find your comments about my sisya status as totally bogus.

 

Don't confuse personality cultism with being a disciple in our sampradaya.

 

When I see these so called disciples of Prabhupada spitting venomous public tirades at other great Vaishnavas like Narayana Maharaja all I see is personality cultism and ignorance - they are more like the hooligan soccer fans in UK than Vaishnavas. If you want to save somebody - help these Godbrothers of yours see the light. Hare Krsna!

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Have I ever indicated that Harikesa has been any kind of authority for me after he separated himself from our sampradaya?

Yes, you indicate it quite consistently by continuing to carry the name he gave you at the time of initiation.

 

How can you reject Haricash and still keep the name he gave you?

 

You seem to want it both ways.

 

If you have rejected Harikesha then you should stop using the name he initiated you with.

 

If you want a devotee name you should take a name from an authority you do respect.

[Kulapavana]

 

Sri Guru and His Grace ch. 8

Srila Sridhar Maharaja: "If within your society, you want a natural growth of the disciple's regard for the guru and the Absolute Truth, such room must be allowed in your constitution, if the constitution is to live at all."

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

Did you even read that sentence? Do you understand what it means? Why are you trying to force me to see Srila Prabhupada in exactly the same way you do? It is ignorant fanatics like you, and not Srila Prabhupada, that make your sanga unbearable for so many people.

[Kulapavana]

 

If you have rejected Harikesha then you should stop using the name he initiated you with.

 

If you want a devotee name you should take a name from an authority you do respect.

 

I received my diksa and my name from Krsna, through the agency of His representatives. Guru is only one, and it is Lord Balaram. You do not understand diksa at all.