More from Gurukrpa/Then More from Satsvarupa

[bhaktajan]

[bhaktajan]

[andy108]

 

Spiritual life (bhakti yoga) is a razors edge. This means that you can fall off to the right or the left, towards karma or towards jnana. There are so many permutations of karmic and jnanic deviations from pure devotional service to Krsna that it is practically unlimited. Anytime we take one or a number of these various karmic and jnanic deviations as the real thing, then we take a stand in the realm of imitation bhakti. We can be too dry and in our heads or too 'wet' and materially sentimental about Krsna Consciousness. Sometimes we know in our heart of hearts and sometimes we are just covered or don't even want to know. At that time we need approach an expert spiritual physician for advice. The problem for the Ten Thousand Year Rtvik Society and their fellow travellers is that they think the physician is only in a book, video or mp3 etc. Therefore he cannot talk back and give his diagnosis and prescriptive advice for their individual case. So despite all the denials, they have taken Srila Prabhupada as sastra guru, and that's fantastic for a first step. But for most, they are really their own guru.

 

And the problem with some is they presume to assume there is a one size fits all understanding of the Acarya's ritvik order being promulgated by all who hold the doctrine dear. Dismissing it out-of-hand at first blush because it confounds their ability to fit the Acarya into a predictable template, they make the illogical leap that anyone who follows that doctrine must certainly be misguided. Or burned by a fanatic hiding behind the basics of the ritvik doctrine who lacks any other recognizable human/civilized qualities, they emotionally react to paint all ritvik adherents with a broad brush.

 

Why focus on all of the psuedo understandings, misunderstandings, and failings of those who push forward Bhaktivedanta Swami and Sridhara Maharaja's Ritvik Doctrine? Is that any different than repeatedly bemoaning the obvious failings of the GBC appointed zonal Guru club?

 

We see what we want to see.

 

If we feel the ritvik order stifles our "freedom of expression" we will not recognize or even imagine the existence of the many devotees who understand that the Ritvik Orders in no way minimize the role of those who progress to the point of pure devotion and representation as Siksa Guru to others who come into the Daiva Varnasrama oriented fold of Iskcon.

 

The safeguard of forever ordering initiations be performed on behalf of a Diksa Guru and Acarya who the Lord spared no miracle to illustrate the absolute qualifications of is a master stroke of genious, forever slamming and barring shut the door behind which the evils of Caste Diksa privilege dwells.

 

Thus henceforward, in the real Iskcon, the humble and chaste at heart will from the neophyte stage advance and BECOME BOTH PURE AND ADVANCED DEVOTEES.

 

They will in their turn become actual qualified Instructing Gurus to many who take their discipline and commit their spiritual lives to their capable hands. And by their actions of following the order that all new initiates are Diksa Disciples of the ever present Saktavesha Avatara and Founder Acarya, they will reinforce through each generation the emphasis on the value of Instructions and the chastity to such in order to gain the mercy necessary to advance in Sadhana Bhakti. By doing so they will reinforce the message that the Spiritual Master is always present in his instructions.

The results of successive generations of Sankirtana devotees ACTUALLY travelling from village to village in their local areas, unified under one Acarya and his many representatives will be the fruitive result that all other systems have failed to produce.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

The example of the physician is that he gives medical advice. When a spiritual teacher gives advice about the practice of bhakti to a student, it is just that, advice or instruction - siksa in Sanskrit. But andy108 goes on a long diatribe culminating in an attack on 'Caste Diksa privilege' which was probably triggered by my mentioning the word 'rtvik'. But I was calling into question the idea of one's only guidance being from books and Supersoul without association and guidance of a highly advanced Vaisnava. Theist got it, so he immediately rushed forth with his 'Supersoul Doctrine' (I'm not against Caitya-Guru). But andy108 took the 'rtivk' word bait and jumped. Hmm, maybe my fault for using the word.

Another thought - there is a difference between just rtivk and The Ten Thousand Year Rtvik Reich.

[andy108]

 

KK wrote that prayer for all of us, so that we will not forget what are the techings and devotional mood of our sampradaya, and so that we will not be led astray by ignorant and fanatical disciples of a particular guru.

 

Right. So you, a neophyte who was duped by a career huckster and criminal, who criticizes someone you claim was an acarya who found you lying to yourself in conditional miasma and told you an acarya is not to be mistaken for an ordinary conditioned soul, like yourself, and prone to the 4 defects (including making mistakes).

 

After all this. You reject the basic tenet of rejecting what is unfavorable to advancement in devotional service by spending the majority of every day with faithless karmis in a mundane corporation just to get paper money so you can go to the supermarket and buy food and pay your mortgage.

 

So, if and when any of the faithless karmis you spend your days with actually turns interested in Krsna consciousness by some motion of supersoul, you will bypass starting them on Bhagavad Gita and accepting an instructor and instead send them to the prayers of Srila Krsnadas Kaviraja and explain to them how they can take Siksa from the Eagle and the Shark, the Sun and the Moon.

 

When will taking such transparently hollow positions that I can shoot down while drinking a six-pack of beer finally get embarassing enough for you to give up?

[andy108]

 

But I was calling into question the idea of one's only guidance being from books and Supersoul without association and guidance of a highly advanced Vaisnava.

 

So either you intentionally skimmed my last post, or you are quibbling that my suggestion that new aspirants associating with and being guided by pure advanced Vaisnavas, is not enough, but they must be HIGHLY advanced?

 

Oh my god. You forgot your meds. Again.

[Kulapavana]

 

When will taking such transparently hollow positions that I can shoot down while drinking a six-pack of beer finally get embarassing enough for you to give up?

 

I give up... please go back to your beer...

[Kulapavana]

Sign of the times and

writings on the wall

they show me it's time has come

Order of a new kind we will all find

stronger than never before

Things are pretty much the same

like in the year sixty eight

oh won't we ever learn

This time is't gonna be different

so let's all join our hands

And let the children sing

for the last time

Ritvik Reich is rising

can't you see the signs

Ritvik Reich is rising

for the last time

Let's just press more lies

don't worry about verification

we got to have more bhaktas to carry on

Misery and sorrow cannot be

avoided at this point

but things will be so

different when we are

ruling the world

Ritvik Reich is rising

can't you see the signs

Ritvik Reich is rising

for the last time

what will be left to our children

is this our final destiny

 

Bhakta Stratovarius

[andy108]

 

I give up... please go back to your beer...

 

Well if you give up, there is no need for beer, it is sparring with you that drives me to drink.

[andy108]

 

Sign of the times and

writings on the wall

they show me it's time has come

Order of a new kind we will all find

stronger than never before

Things are pretty much the same

like in the year sixty eight

oh won't we ever learn

This time is't gonna be different

so let's all join our hands

And let the children sing

for the last time

Ritvik Reich is rising

can't you see the signs

Ritvik Reich is rising

for the last time

Let's just press more lies

don't worry about verification

we got to have more bhaktas to carry on

Misery and sorrow cannot be

avoided at this point

but things will be so

different when we are

ruling the world

Ritvik Reich is rising

can't you see the signs

Ritvik Reich is rising

for the last time

what will be left to our children

is this our final destiny

 

Bhakta Stratovarius

After Comrade Obama and the Marxist socialists of America's new 4th Reich complete what they have begun in a year or less, when the true new world order 4th Reich comes to town and makes you and your karmi scientist friends work for them because you don't have your own food, cloth, raw materials, Vaisnava militia, etc. because you know so much better how to execute a sankirtana mission than the Acarya who found you languishing in your Commu/Socialist Pollack conditioned state.

 

Why don't you compose some poetry glorifying them? They might appreciate it and not send your wife and kids to the gulag (read FEMA camp) for those who believe in freedom of religion and God as opposed to slavery to the state.

[theist]

 

But I was calling into question theidea of one's only guidance being from books and Supersoul withoutassociation and guidance of a highly advanced Vaisnava. Theist got it,so he immediately rushed forth with his 'Supersoul Doctrine' (I'm notagainst Caitya-Guru).

 

Operative word here is 'only'. What I am saying is that ultimately Supersoul IS in fact the only guide. It is Supersoul's voice that one must hear from their guru's mouth, books etc. If you are not hearing the Supersoul as the source you are not hearing your guru or your guru is not liberated. The reason is the Guru is the external manifestation of Supersoul.

 

Beggar is right those that advocate only Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupad is guru for 10,000 years are sentimental fools who are not actually hearing the real voice of Srila Prabhupada. They are simply an unnesscessary

disturbance.

 

Clearly Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples to do as much or more for Krishna than he did. Devotee is not envious of others accomplishments he just wants Krishna to be pleased.

 

Beggar I think you have a mistaken idea of what the "Supersoul Doctrine" I am trying to get across really is. The frustrating thing is I have not been able to communicate it very clearly.

[andy108]

It appears that engaging Kulapavana incites him to continued acarya aparadha, as he now blames Srila Prabhupada's ritvik order for the actions of those who disregarded his order and never ever called themselves Ritviks, yet who Kulapavana refers to as Ritvik Leaders.

 

The ever morphing mind of Kula pavana is leading him on a path to hell, seeing demons where there are none, and ignoring the ones he works for every day.

 

I will no longer be part of feeding the Trolls that permeate his Kama-Manasic vehicle which are torturing him so, albeit by his permission.

 

It will take more than being told the truth to set him free. Acceptance of truth requires eviction of Trolls. May Sri Sri Guru Gauranga have mercy.

[andy108]

 

Beggar is right those that advocate only Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupad is guru for 10,000 years are sentimental fools who are not actually hearing the real voice of Srila Prabhupada. They are simply an unnesscessary

disturbance.

 

Problem is Theist, Beggar does not confine his criticism to the very narrow spectrum of devotees who claim "Prabhupada is Guru for next 10000 years"

 

Even those who claim Prabhupada gave full allowance for the creation and emergence of pure and advanced instructing Gurus are lumped into his derision.

 

But give the guy a break, he has no other life but to tilt at windmills.

 

Anyway, here is a quote you will appreciate.

 

 

CC Adi 8.73 : PURPORT :

 

Anyone who attempts to write about Kṛṣṇa must first take permission from the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone's heart, and the spiritual master is His direct external representative. Thus Kṛṣṇa is situated antar-bahiḥ, within and without. One must first become a pure devotee by following the strict regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds daily, and when one thinks that he is actually on the Vaiṣṇava platform, he must then take permission from the spiritual master, and that permission must also be confirmed by Kṛṣṇa from within his heart. Then, if one is very sincere and pure, he can write transcendental literature, either prose or poetry.

 

And of course I mean to post this as well to prove that even one who accepts Srila Prabhupada as his Diksa Guru although is not there in his "human-like which can be seen by conditioned eyes bodily form" at the ceremony (like so many of his disciples from 1972-77 who never "met" him)

 

Even such a person may find a spiritual master in Iskcon henceforward as the Ritvik order in no way precludes disciples from BECOMING pure devotees who FURTHER BECOME advanced in adhikari and can act as Siksa Guru representatives of Srila Govindaji Vigraha (aka Supersoul), and give permission/confirmation to the supersoul realizing Vaisnava that their writing project is acceptable.

[Kulapavana]

 

It appears that engaging Kulapavana incites him to continued acarya aparadha, as he now blames Srila Prabhupada's ritvik order for the actions of those who disregarded his order...

 

You are seeing all kinds of things in your delusional head...

 

The examples were there to show you that given a free-reign, even Prabhupada's disciples appointed by him to be leaders are capable of horrific actions. I do remember these days, and the shudder of repulsion I had for these people and their evil ways. Many of the cheerleaders from that time period are current GBCs.

 

It was ignorance and fanaticism of rank and file devotees that allowed these 'leaders' to prosper, something I hope will never happen again in my lifetime. That is why I cringe every time I see fanatics with radical agendas among the devotees.

[andy108]

 

You are seeing all kinds of things in your delusional head...

 

The examples were there to show you that given a free-reign, even Prabhupada's disciples appointed by him to be leaders are capable of horrific actions. I do remember these days, and the shudder of repulsion I had for these people and their evil ways. Many of the cheerleaders from that time period are current GBCs.

 

It was ignorance and fanaticism of rank and file devotees that allowed these 'leaders' to prosper, something I hope will never happen again in my lifetime. That is why I cringe every time I see fanatics with radical agendas among the devotees.

 

And because of the Troll demons masquerading as tumors in your brain, you continue to conflate the allowance of free-will to being given free-reign.

 

And you claim to be anti-facist. Your views are not but the epitome of Facism.

 

Of course you will claim that Srila Prabhupada kept these men on after doing horrific things that he even found out about. Unwilling to use the "forgiveness of socially abominable actions if they are rightly situated" card here because it does not suit your argument. Better left used when defending your ex bad Guru. But I digress.

 

You can't even allow that an Acarya can tell when to pull the forgiveness of socially abominable actions card! That he was not able to tell if they were sorry for their accidental falldown, and if they were chanting "Hare Krsna" again. Old guy must have been hard of hearing eh?

 

Again. He never gave anyone Free-Reign. Repeat this 3 times.

 

He constantly harped against that tendency in his leaders, and would even reassign them if he discovered they overstepped and were unrepentant.

 

YOU are the one who will castigate anyone if they do not follow in lockstep with your idea of the ideal moral character of a Vaisnava, and stick your Communist Jack Boot up their butt if they act in any way socially that makes your self-righteous ego "Cringe".

 

Read the relevant passage from the Gita again. Back to basics. Once a neophyte Vaisnava, such a one may even become part of the sinister movement and commit nonsense on the strength of the verse, but it is only said that it means they are "not to be considered a high devotee". But still a devotee none the less by implication. If I were you I would tread lightly and contemplate the incredible compassion and tolerance of the Pure Devotee and Acarya for ALL his disciples.

 

More tolerant than a tree and humbler than a blade of grass. Too aspire to. Not assume you are there and can therefore criticize the Acarya for being just that.

 

 

Bg 9.30 : PURPORT : The mark of a spot which may be seen on the moon does not become an impediment to the moonlight. Similarly, the accidental falldown of a devotee from the path of a saintly character does not make him abominable. On the other hand, one should not misunderstand that a devotee in transcendental devotional service can act in all kinds of abominable ways; this verse only refers to an accident due to the strong power of material connections. Devotional service is more or less a declaration of war against the illusory energy. As long as one is not strong enough to fight the illusory energy, there may be accidental falldowns. But when one is strong enough, he is no longer subjected to such falldowns, as previously explained. No one should take advantage of this verse and commit nonsense and think that he is still a devotee. If he does not improve in his character by devotional service, then it is to be understood that he is not a high devotee.

[Kulapavana]

 

Again. He never gave anyone Free-Reign. Repeat this 3 times.

 

 

If you knew the facts, you would have noticed I was refering to the time after SP passed away - hence the phrase 'free reign' and me being there to see it (you know when I joined)

 

all I see in your posts is foam...

[andy108]

 

If you knew the facts, you would have noticed I was refering to the time after SP passed away - hence the phrase 'free reign' and me being there to see it (you know when I joined)

 

all I see in your posts is foam...

 

Then wake up and clear the bed-snot from your eyes.

 

You clearly refer to them as "even leaders Prabhupada appointed". Which is an oblique reference to his fallibility which is a constant theme in your diatribes. Your history speaks for itself. Perhaps my last post was a response that was building up as a summary result of everything you have said prior, and not just on the technicality of what you just said. Hmmmm. Could be.

 

You were not only there to see it, (after SP left), YOU GAVE THEM FREE-REIGN by your unwillingness to exercise your God given right to Free-will and not support their "reign" by doing something different. Anything. Plant a garden. Get a post in your government. Build an airplane.

 

You stuck with Harry Cashout for 20 years before you claim he finally fell down.

 

Anyway, you have suffered enough, and will at your own hands until you give up your Acarya resentment and Diksa envy. Nothing more I can do.

[Kulapavana]

 

You clearly refer to them as "even leaders Prabhupada appointed".

 

That is a historical fact. The rest is your own foam and speculation...

[bhaktajan]

andy108 to Kulapavana:

"Right. So you, a neophyte who was duped by a career huckster and criminal,"

 

"It appears that engaging Kulapavana incites him to continued acarya aparadha"

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I have come to the following conclusion:

andy108 is a grand non-sense for the first order par-excellance!

 

andy108, my suggestion is that you retire your efforts --they are too mechanical for human brain algorithms.

 

You andy108 are a bogus character. Your familiarity with esoteric hindu thought of our sect is too obtuse and offensive to be real!

 

You are a fake and a phoney entity.

 

Guys, you're being duped by this dialogue-master.

 

Please proceed with rapid caution --your input is being scanned and then re-aligned to cause dissention.

 

andy108 is an slippery intellectual --with attactive lures . . .

[bhaktajan]

"career huckster and criminal" --who the eFFing hell to you think you are to name an other vaishnava as a, "career huckster and criminal"?

 

You don't deserve better--maybe you have already noted this fact!

 

You got robbed?????????? by a Vaishnava?????????????? If yes, I'm glad for you deserved it & you will accrue the same again soon enough.

 

andy108, You are a bogus poster!

[theist]

 

Problem is Theist, Beggar does notconfine his criticism to the very narrow spectrum of devotees who claim"Prabhupada is Guru for next 10000 years"

 

Yes it is a narrow spectrum. It does not allow for the fulfillment of Prabhupada's desire that many if not all his disciples become shaktya-vesa avatars of the Lord.

[theist]

 

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">CC Adi 8.73 : PURPORT :

 

Anyone who attempts to write about Kṛṣṇa must first take permissionfrom the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is situated in everyone'sheart, and the spiritual master is His direct external representative.Thus Kṛṣṇa is situated antar-bahiḥ,within and without. One must first become a pure devotee by followingthe strict regulative principles and chanting sixteen rounds daily, andwhen one thinks that he is actually on the Vaiṣṇava platform, he mustthen take permission from the spiritual master, and that permissionmust also be confirmed by Kṛṣṇa from within his heart. Then, if one isvery sincere and pure, he can write transcendental literature, eitherprose or poetry. </td> </tr> </tbody></table><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

Yes thank you that is a wonderful quote.

[andy108]

 

andy108 to Kulapavana:

"Right. So you, a neophyte who was duped by a career huckster and criminal,"

 

"It appears that engaging Kulapavana incites him to continued acarya aparadha"

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I have come to the following conclusion:

andy108 is a grand non-sense for the first order par-excellance!

 

andy108, my suggestion is that you retire your efforts --they are too mechanical for human brain algorithms.

 

You andy108 are a bogus character. Your familiarity with esoteric hindu thought of our sect is too obtuse and offensive to be real!

 

You are a fake and a phoney entity.

 

Guys, you're being duped by this dialogue-master.

 

Please proceed with rapid caution --your input is being scanned and then re-aligned to cause dissention.

 

andy108 is an slippery intellectual --with attactive lures . . .

 

If you had ever added anything substantial to these debates other than your flashy pseudo-poetic method speaking in way one usually walks away wondering if you even knew what you were talking about, forget about having the ability to get your point across. (Unless of course you are just attacking me).

 

Maybe I would take your suggestion seriously.

 

But as I am a phoney entity , I will just stick to the facts and ignore your vain protestations assuming that won't bother you coming from a phoney and all, so I hope not to hear from you anymore.

[andy108]

 

"career huckster and criminal" --who the eFFing hell to you think you are to name an other vaishnava as a, "career huckster and criminal"?

 

You don't deserve better--maybe you have already noted this fact!

 

You got robbed?????????? by a Vaishnava?????????????? If yes, I'm glad for you deserved it & you will accrue the same again soon enough.

 

andy108, You are a bogus poster!

 

Well, to set the record straight, especially since your panties are now all in a bunch...

 

I assure you, I am not bogus at all, neither is my observation based on fabrication or falsity.

 

My Acarya said to avoid social niceties and call a thief a thief. Especially a member of the Great Sinister Movement that he himself claimed was already infiltrated his Society.

 

What I stated, in spite of the service that Harikesh did for SP in the beginning, is the actual truth of where he has ended up. And how he continues to operate until this day. I am in the know. He has not repented yet and continues to rip innocent people off, including an old friend of mine.

 

But he eventually will return to Bhakti at the level he was at before he decided a life of crime was a better option for him.

 

There is no loss or dimunition on this path.

 

Ease up Bubba.