Lord Kapila said:

[theist]

TRANSLATION SB 3.29.22

One who worships the Deity of Godhead in thetemples but does not know that the Supreme Lord, as Paramātmā, issituated in every living entity’s heart, must be in ignorance and iscompared to one who offers oblations into ashes.

PURPORT

It is stated clearly herein that the SupremePersonality of Godhead, in His plenary expansion of Supersoul, ispresent in all living entities. The living entities have 8,400,000different kinds of bodies, and the Supreme Personality of Godhead isliving in every body both as the individual soul and as the Supersoul.Since the individual soul is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, inthat sense the Lord is living in every body, and, as Supersoul, theLord is also present as a witness. In both cases the presence of God inevery living entity is essential. Therefore persons who profess tobelong to some religious sect but who do not feel the presence of theSupreme Personality of Godhead in every living entity, and everywhereelse, are in the mode of ignorance.

If, without this preliminary knowledge of theLord’s omnipresence, one simply attaches himself to the rituals in atemple, church or mosque, it is as if he were offering butter intoashes rather than into the fire. One offers sacrifices by pouringclarified butter into a fire and chanting Vedic mantras, but even if there are Vedic mantrasand all conditions are favorable, if the clarified butter is poured onashes, then such a sacrifice will be useless. In other words, a devoteeshould not ignore any living entity. The devotee must know that inevery living entity, however insignificant he may be, even in an ant,God is present, and therefore every living entity should be kindlytreated and should not be subjected to any violence. In moderncivilized society, slaughterhouses are regularly maintained andsupported by a certain type of religious principle. But withoutknowledge of the presence of God in every living entity, any so-calledadvancement of human civilization, either spiritual or material, is tobe understood as being in the mode of ignorance.

[theist]

 

Therefore persons who profess to be long to some religious sect but who do not feel the presence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in every living entity, and every where else, are in the mode of ignorance.

 

I am taking the word 'feel' to be different from from being able to intellectually conceptionalize. If asked every devotee would agree the Lord is within everyone's heart but are we really aware of His presence?

[andy108]

Good, no Great point.

 

Vaisnava is not so easy.

[theist]

No it's not. It takes some humility. Even though the religious process we identify with is in the mode of goodness and leading to pure bhakti if we preform it in the mode of ignorance we miss out on the essence.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

No it's not. It takes some humility. Even though the religious process we identify with is in the mode of goodness and leading to pure bhakti if we preform it in the mode of ignorance we miss out on the essence.

 

I have to not agree with this. If it is so then the DVD paradigum would be incorrect. Srila Prabhupada has said that the person in ignorance(sudra) gets everything that the brahman gets. Because all are to be concidered transendental and not of these varnas or asramas. But just acting out for the sake of guna and karma that the devotee is by nature incline to.

 

But if your speaking about the blade of grass in Vaikuntha as compared to the madhurya lila in Goloka then yes we will miss the highest essence

 

(I'm probably on his ignore list, LOL)

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

[theist]

 

I have to not agree with this. If it is so then the DVD paradigum would be incorrect. Srila Prabhupada has said that the person in ignorance(sudra) gets everything that the brahman gets. Because all are to be concidered transendental and not of these varnas or asramas. But just acting out for the sake of guna and karma that the devotee is by nature incline to.

 

 

Not quite on point bt. You have unnecessarily brought in the words sudra and brahmana which Kapila was not speaking about nor was Prabhupada in his purport.

 

 

Please read the opening post again.

 

 

 

 

 

(I'm probably on his ignore list, LOL)

 

Hare Krsna

 

RCB

 

 

Not yet but be careful I'm feelin' mighty trigger happy these days. ;)Actually I save that list for those that want to endlessly demean Prabhupada or want to change his teachings to suit themselves.

[Beggar]

 

I have to not agree with this. If it is so then the DVD paradigum would be incorrect. Srila Prabhupada has said that the person in ignorance(sudra) gets everything that the brahman gets. Because all are to be concidered transendental and not of these varnas or asramas. But just acting out for the sake of guna and karma that the devotee is by nature incline to.

 

RCB

 

The daiva varnasrama paradigm is not incorrect. It is for those on a low level of devotional service like most of the Western devotees (us). But it is your interpretation of what Prabhupada said that is incorrect. An aspiring Vaisnava who is attracted to someone like Srila Prabhupada and the Caitanyite conception of Krsna he is giving is not really in ignorance. But because of external conditioning he may be in the habit of working as a sudra such as a laborer. So although from a material viewpoint he may appear to be digging a ditch to lay plumbing for a devotional project, if he is doing this to please a bonafide guru and Krsna then he is not really in tama guna and he is gradually being elevated by his Krsna karma yoga.

[andy108]

 

The daiva varnasrama paradigm is not incorrect. It is for those on a low level of devotional service like most of the Western devotees (us). But it is your interpretation of what Prabhupada said that is incorrect. An aspiring Vaisnava who is attracted to someone like Srila Prabhupada and the Caitanyite conception of Krsna he is giving is not really in ignorance. But because of external conditioning he may be in the habit of working as a sudra such as a laborer. So although from a material viewpoint he may appear to be digging a ditch to lay plumbing for a devotional project, if he is doing this to please a bonafide guru and Krsna then he is not really in tama guna and he is gradually being elevated by his Krsna karma yoga.

 

That is actually what he meant. For example Srila Prabhupada comments on Arjuna's ignorance. But we know he was under Yoga Maya. So I think does RCB. Of course a sudra may fall from his pure following as easily as one inclined to higher varna, and thus drop to mixed devotion.

 

There must be a fine line as to when and where a devotee is influenced by Maha Maya and Yoga Maya. I was reading in the Gita, 7th chapter, of how Yoga Maya covered those in assembly during Sisupala's challenge from being able to recognize Krishna as more than an extraordinary man.

 

It is also interesting how the gradual elevation in adhikari seems to parellel the advancement in varna, at least during sadhana bhakti.

 

Then there is a MahaJnana like Lord Yamaraja born in a Sudra family but displaying the utmost in brahminical qualities.

 

Such a rich philosophy.

[theist]

But all this talk on varna misses the point Kapila is making and Prabhupada makes in the purport. Forget sudra this and that for a moment.

 

 

If, without this preliminary knowledgeof the Lord’s omnipresence, one simply attaches himself to the ritualsin a temple, church or mosque, it is as if he were offering butterinto ashes rather than into the fire. One offers sacrifices bypouring clarified butter into a fire and chanting Vedic mantras, buteven if there are Vedic mantras and all conditions are favorable, if theclarified butter is poured on ashes, then such a sacrifice will beuseless. In other words, a devotee should not ignore any living entity.The devotee must know that in every living entity, however insignificanthe may be, even in an ant,God is present, and therefore every livingentity should be kindly treated and should not be subjected to anyviolence. In modern civilized society, slaughterhouses are regularlymaintained and supported by a certain type of religious principle. Butwithout knowledge of the presence of God in every living entity, anyso-called advancement of human civilization, either spiritual ormaterial, is to be understood as being in the mode of ignorance.

 

Beyond the abstract there is a real change of consciousness that must be individually experienced. Too often we develop a false sense of security in our performance of religious rites and rituals falling short of actually developing a personal relationship with the Lord.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

But all this talk on varna misses the point Kapila is making and Prabhupada makes in the purport. Forget sudra this and that for a moment.

 

 

 

Beyond the abstract there is a real change of consciousness that must be individually experienced. Too often we develop a false sense of security in our performance of religious rites and rituals falling short of actually developing a personal relationship with the Lord.

 

Hare Krsna Theist

 

Yeah, I get your point now. Well made. I admit, I read to fast with my one(DVD) purpose in mind. Which comes from MY supersoul, to thy own heart be true. Is there an applicable example that brought this to you mind at this time?

 

Thanks Andy108(why have I called you adam? Duh)you read me like a book at times.

 

Hare Krsna, RCB

[theist]

 

 

Hare Krsna Theist

 

Yeah, I get your point now. Well made. I admit, I read to fast with myone(DVD) purpose in mind. Which comes from MY supersoul, to thy ownheart be true. Is there an applicable example that brought this to youmind at this time?

 

Hare Krsna, RCB

 

RCB, thanks. No specific example. This is the point my introspection and inner seeking always brings me to. The need to simplify this process for my mind and not get caught up in 10,000 words and millions of thoughts which when broken down is just so much mind chatter. Even if it's philosophical mind chatter about Krishna it remains indirect as long as there is no tangible connection made with the Lord in the heart.

 

There is intellectual knowing about God and then there is knowing God.

 

Prabhupada gave the phrase 'Take the essence' and I have found this to be the most usefull of advice.

 

 

TRANSLATION SB 3.29.22

One who worships the Deity of Godhead in the temples butdoes not know that the Supreme Lord, as Paramātmā, is situated in everyliving entity’s heart, must be in ignorance and is compared to one whooffers oblations into ashes.

 

I see that it is here in the instructions of Lord Kapila that religon becomes a living conscious experience. It is at this point that the dead regain life.

 

haribol

[AncientMariner]

TRANSLATION SB 3.29.22

One who worships the Deity of Godhead in the temples butdoes not know that the Supreme Lord, as Paramātmā, is situated in everyliving entity’s heart, must be in ignorance and is compared to one whooffers oblations into ashes.

 

 

 

 

 

That is a powerful quote and unfortunately it seems like a lot of religions in the world are stuck in this model where they worship their particular denomination etc. but are ignorant that God is in the heart of every living being. Some even view it as a new age concept to view God being in the heart.

[primate]

More precisely: God is everywhere. And God is present in the heart of every living entity as Supersoul..

[theist]

 

TRANSLATION SB 3.29.22

One who worships the Deity of Godhead in the temples but does not know that the Supreme Lord, as Paramātmā, is situated in every living entity’s heart, must be in ignorance and is compared to one who offers oblations into ashes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is a powerful quote and unfortunately it seems like a lot of religions in the world are stuck in this model where they worship their particular denomination etc. but are ignorant that God is in the heart of every living being. Some even view it as a new age concept to view God being in the heart.

 

 

 

Yes, but not only a lot of religions but all as far as I can see, including Hare Krishna's. Though we have less of an excuse because we have been given the knowledge so clearly.

[theist]

 

More precisely: God is everywhere. And God is present in the heart of every living entity as Supersoul..

 

 

Nice realization primate.

[theist]

Who is a separatist? Am I?

TRANSLATION SB 3.29.23

 

One who offers Me respect but is envious ofthe bodies of others and is therefore a separatist never attains peaceof mind, because of his inimical behavior towards other living entities.

PURPORT

In this verse, two phrases, bhūteṣu baddha-vairasya (“inimical towards others”) and dviṣataḥ para-kāye(“envious of another’s body”), are significant. One who is envious ofor inimical towards others never experiences any happiness. A devotee’svision, therefore, must be perfect. He should ignore bodilydistinctions and should see only the presence of the part and parcel ofthe Supreme Lord, and the Lord Himself in His plenary expansion asSupersoul. That is the vision of a pure devotee. The bodily expressionof a particular type of living entity is always ignored by the devotee.

It is expressed herein that the Lord is alwayseager to deliver the conditioned souls, who have been encaged withinmaterial bodies. Devotees are expected to carry the message or desireof the Lord to such conditioned souls and enlighten them with Kṛṣṇaconsciousness. Thus they may be elevated to transcendental, spirituallife, and the mission of their lives will be successful. Of course thisis not possible for living entities who are lower than human beings,but in human society it is feasible that all living entities can beenlightened with Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Even living entities who arelower than human can be raised to Kṛṣṇa consciousness by other methods.For example, Śivānanda Sena, a great devotee of Lord Caitanya,delivered a dog by feeding him prasāda. Distribution of prasāda,or remnants of foodstuffs offered to the Lord, even to the ignorantmasses of people and to animals, gives such living entities the chancefor elevation to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Factually it happened that thesame dog, when met by Lord Caitanya at Purī, was liberated from thematerial condition.

It is especially mentioned here that a devotee must be free from all violence (jīvāhiṁsā).Lord Caitanya has recommended that a devotee not commit violence to anyliving entity. Sometimes the question is raised that since vegetablesalso have life and devotees take vegetable foodstuffs, isn’t thatviolence? Firstly, however, taking some leaves, twigs or fruit from atree or plant does not kill the plant. Besides that, jīvāhiṁsā means that since every living entity has to pass through a particular type of body according to his past karma,although every living entity is eternal, he should not be disturbed inhis gradual evolution. A devotee has to execute the principles ofdevotional service exactly as they are, and he must know that howeverinsignificant a living entity may be, the Lord is present within him. Adevotee must realize this universal presence of the Lord.

[theist]

TRANSLATION SB 3.29.24

My dear Mother, even if he worships withproper rituals and paraphernalia, a person who is ignorant of Mypresence in all living entities never pleases Me by the worship of MyDeities in the temple.

PURPORT

There are sixty-four different prescriptions forworship of the Deity in the temple. There are many items offered to theDeity, some valuable and some less valuable. It is prescribed in Bhagavad-gītā:“If a devotee offers Me a small flower, a leaf, some water or a littlefruit, I will accept it.” The real purpose is to exhibit one’s lovingdevotion to the Lord; the offerings themselves are secondary. If onehas not developed loving devotion to the Lord and simply offers manykinds of foodstuffs, fruits and flowers without real devotion, theoffering will not be accepted by the Lord. We cannot bribe thePersonality of Godhead. He is so great that our bribery has no value.Nor has He any scarcity; since He is full in Himself, what can we offerHim? Everything is produced by Him. We simply offer to show our loveand gratitude to the Lord.

This gratitude and love for God is exhibited by apure devotee, who knows that the Lord lives in every living entity. Assuch, temple worship necessarily includes distribution of prasāda.It is not that one should create a temple in his private apartment orprivate room, offer something to the Lord, and then eat. Of course,that is better than simply cooking foodstuffs and eating withoutunderstanding one’s relationship with the Supreme Lord; people who actin this manner are just like animals. But the devotee who wants toelevate himself to the higher level of understanding must know that theLord is present in every living entity, and, as stated in the previousverse, one should be compassionate to other living entities. A devoteeshould worship the Supreme Lord, be friendly to persons who are on thesame level and be compassionate to the ignorant. One should exhibit hiscompassion for ignorant living entities by distributing prasāda. Distribution of prasāda to the ignorant masses of people is essential for persons who make offerings to the Personality of Godhead.

Real love and devotion is accepted by the Lord.Many valuable foodstuffs may be presented to a person, but if theperson is not hungry, all such offerings are useless for him.Similarly, we may offer many valuable items to the Deity, but if wehave no real sense of devotion and no real sense of the Lord’s presenceeverywhere, then we are lacking in devotional service; in such a stateof ignorance, we cannot offer anything acceptable to the Lord.

[theist]

 

Similarly, we may offer many valuable items to the Deity, but if we have no real sense of devotion and no real sense of the Lord’s presence everywhere, then we are lacking in devotional service; in such a state of ignorance, we cannot offer anything acceptable to the Lord.

 

 

Such a strong statement. I have to ask myself if I have ever made an offering to the Lord in this consciousness and the answer is no. So where does that leave me?' On the outside looking in' is where. The honey is in the jar but I am trying to enjoy it through the glass.

 

Devotional service is internal and not institutional. The externals are necessary to keep us in the game until we realize this and open up and release our loving attitude towards Krishna. This is only done personally one by one.

[andy108]

In the NOD, Srila Prabhupada said that we should follow the rules and regs mechanically at first. And then at some point, an internal transformation would occur. At that point we would continue doing the exact same external activities, yet they would then be occuring spontaneously and we would feel bliss in the doing, instead of being tinged with a sense of forcing ourselves as a duty. He calls the activities performed before our internal shift "vaidhi/regulated" and those post-internal shift, "spontaneous/Raganuga"

 

 

1970 Edition : NoD 2: The First Stages of Devotion :

Now this sādhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master, or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sādhana-bhakti is called rāgānugā. Rāgānugā refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Kṛṣṇa, and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer ārātrika, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers ārātrika, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sādhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

 

 

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Devotional service is internal and not institutional. The externals are necessary to keep us in the game until we realize this and open up and release our loving attitude towards Krishna. This is only done personally one by one.

I am with you on that one bro.

In fact, there comes a point where the institutional attachment becomes an insurmountable obstacle.

 

It's like if a kid never grows up and leaves home but stays home all his life depending on his Mommy and Daddy.

 

The baby bird is always afraid when he first flies out of the nest, but if he doesn't he will never learn to fly on his own.

 

Staying back at the nest waiting for someone to bring us a worm is not going to work in the long run.

[theist]

 

I am with you on that one bro.

In fact, there comes a point where the institutional attachment becomes an insurmountable obstacle.

 

It's like if a kid never grows up and leaves home but stays home all his life depending on his Mommy and Daddy.

 

The baby bird is always afraid when he first flies out of the nest, but if he doesn't he will never learn to fly on his own.

 

Staying back at the nest waiting for someone to bring us a worm is not going to work in the long run.

 

 

Yes but one can also remain in the instituion, depending on if it is a conducive situation for him but he can't remain with the false sense of security that the institution offers.

 

 

No substitute for a change of heart.

[theist]

 

In the NOD, Srila Prabhupada said that we should follow the rules and regs mechanically at first. And then at some point, an internal transformation would occur. At that point we would continue doing the exact same external activities, yet they would then be occuring spontaneously and we would feel bliss in the doing, instead of being tinged with a sense of forcing ourselves as a duty. He calls the activities performed before our internal shift "vaidhi/regulated" and those post-internal shift, "spontaneous/Raganuga"

 

 

Yes but it is not an automatic, mechanical transformation requiring no internal work on the part of the practioner.

[andy108]

 

Yes but it is not an automatic, mechanical transformation requiring no internal work on the part of the practioner.

 

One follows the other.

 

First all occurs mechanically. The original internal decision to follow mechanically may not even be based upon a perception of personal lack of spiritual grace, it may be based on desire for power and material facility.

 

But still, the purifying effect of the mantra and arcana will have its way and induce the internal crisis. That is the conclusion.

 

How long it takes for each individual is not set in stone. But as we have witnessed, for those whose Heart is set in stone, a decades of such machinations sometimes remain just that.

[theist]

 

One follows the other.

 

First all occurs mechanically. The original internal decision to follow mechanically may not even be based upon a perception of personal lack of spiritual grace, it may be based on desire for power and material facility.

 

But still, the purifying effect of the mantra and arcana will have its way and induce the internal crisis. That is the conclusion.

 

How long it takes for each individual is not set in stone. But as we have witnessed, for those whose Heart is set in stone, a decades of such machinations sometimes remain just that.[/quote]

 

 

Right, and why is that? Because the name of God is not a mechanicaldevice. The name of God is a Person and to surrender to the name of Godis a personal decision made internally by every jiva.

 

 

 

You can shadow chant mechanically for a thousand years without onceuttering the Pure Name or one can quickly come to the pure platform ifthe attitude is right.