andy108 Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 It is all in here. Nitya-siddha, sadhana-siddha, MahaBhagavata, Kanistha-Madhyama-Uttama adhikari, how they all relate, and how they are manifest through the particular sadhana Srila Prabhupada is giving to his disciples. A masterpiece all encompassing lecture. SB 7.9.4 Lecture Mayapura 1976 Dayānanda: (chants verse, etc.) "Translation: O king Yudhiṣṭhira, Prahlāda Mahārāja, the exalted devotee, although a little boy, accepted the words of Lord Brahmā and gradually proceeded towards Lord Nṛsiṁhadeva, and immediately fell down to offer his respectful obeisances with folded hands. Prabhupāda: tatheti śanakai rājan mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ upetya bhuvi kāyena nanāma vidhṛtāñjaliḥ [sB 7.9.4] So, Prahlāda Mahārāja, mahā-bhāgavata, uttama-adhikārī. There are three stages of devotional platform. First stage is called kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, second stage is called madhyama-adhikārī, and third stage, or topmost stage, is called uttama-adhikārī. So, he was only five years old, how he became uttama-adhikārī, on the topmost stage? He had no training. Still, he is addressed here by Narada Muni—Narada Muni was his guru—and still, he is describing Prahlāda Mahārāja as mahā-bhāgavata. That means even one is mahā-bhāgavata, he has to accept a guru. Narada Muni, his guru, he knows that "Prahlāda is my disciple, but he is mahā-bhāgavata." Not only that, before his birth, when he was within the womb of his mother... His mother was attacked by the demigods, headed by Indra, and they were dragging her to their palace. Narada Muni met, said "What are you doing this? You are harassing one woman?No sir, we are not harassing, only we are taking her in our place to wait for the deliverance of the child. Then we shall kill him. Because he is born of atheist father, so he is another demon." Narada Muni said, "No, no, no, you are mistaken. He is not demon, he is mahā-bhāgavata." So in the beginning he was mahā-bhāgavata, since he was in within the womb of his mother. And later on he is mahā-bhāgavata. This is called nitya-siddha, eternally mahā-bhāgavata. Eternally mahā-bhāgavata never forgets Kṛṣṇa, in any circumstance. That is the sign of mahā-bhāgavata, nitya-siddha. Prahlāda Mahārāja was put into so many trials when he was only a child, still he never forgot Kṛṣṇa. That is the sign of mahā-bhāgavata. In any circumstances. It does not mean that because one is mahā-bhāgavata he should not be put into trials. He can be put into trials, because the material world is like that. The western country, they, Lord Jesus Christ, he was put into trials but he never forgot Kṛṣṇa. This is sign of mahā-bhāgavata, nitya-siddha. gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe nitya-siddha kori 'māne se jāy brajenda-nandana pāś If one can understand nitya-siddha bhāgavata, then he immediately becomes eligible to go back to home, to back to godhead. This is the privilege of associating with mahā-bhāgavata. So our system is, (child crying—aside:) try and maintain (?). Evaṁ paramparā, to associate with the mahā-bhāgavata by words or by physical exposition (?). So mahā-bhāgavata arbhakaḥ. One may argue, arbhakaḥ means foolish child, who has no knowledge, he is called arbhakaḥ. How we can say mahā-bhāgavata? Arbhakaḥ, he has no knowledge. No. It is possible. Ahaituky apratihatā. Bhakti does not depend on age, or on advanced knowledge, or richness, or so many other things. Janmaiśvarya-śruta-śrī [sB 1.8.26]. To take birth in high family, aristocracy, and to become rich, to become beautiful, to become very learned scholar. These things are material assets, but spiritual life does not depend on these things. One can become spiritually very advanced even though he is poor, he is born in a low, low-grade family. Just like Haridāsa Ṭhākura. He was born in Muhammadan family, but mahā-bhāgavata. There are so many examples. Not that because he was born in a Muhammadan family therefore he cannot. This Marchoism (?) is like that, but actually it is not. Ahaituky apratihatā. Bhakti is so purifying that any condition, any circumstances, one can become devotee. māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim [bg. 9.32] Kṛṣṇa says. So everyone has got the potency to become mahā-bhāgavata, provided he tries. Sādhana-siddha and nitya-siddha. Prahlāda Mahārāja is nitya-siddha and there are sādhana-siddhas, just like we are. We are trying to approach the topmost goal of life by bhajana, by sādhana. So anyone has got the potency to come to the stage of mahā-bhāgavata provided he follows the mahājana. You can become mahā-bhāgavata if you follow mahājana. Mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. If you follow the mahājana's path then everyone can become. Of course, it is not possible everyone to become mahā-bhāgavata, but there is possibility. Simply we have to become serious to follow the path of mahājana. Dharmasya tattvaṁ nihitaṁ guhāyāṁ mahājano yena gataḥ sa panthāḥ. Tarko apratiṣṭhaḥ. Simply by argument, you cannot make advancement. Simply by neti neti, or there are many other processes, mystic yoga process to become very austere, remain silent, mauna-vrata śruta-tapa, tapasya, education, austerity. None of them are the cause, but becoming bhakta, only devotional service, if one is fixed up, dṛḍha-vratāḥ. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritaḥ bhajanty, dṛḍha-vratāḥ [bg. 9.13]. So we should be very much firmly fixed up, following the rules and regulation. So Prahlāda Mahārāja he is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means there are living entities, every living entity is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, so one who does not fall down, he is called nitya-siddha. One who does not fall down. Just like in this material world there are millions and millions of living entities, but they have fallen down. But there are multi-millions and millions of living entities in the vaikuṇṭha-loka, they never fall down. They are called nitya-siddha. They never come here. So we have no information. This is only one-fourth manifestation of God's creation and the three-fourths creation of God is there. Not creation, it is everlasting. Just like in the prison house, if you go to the prison house, it does not mean that the whole state is there. It is only insignificant part of the state, and only the criminals they are put together. So this material world, material world means so many planets you see, so many stars and planets, the sun planet, moon planet and loka, sarva-loka-maheśvaram [bg. 5.29]. This is one universe, and there are millions of universes. Altogether that is material world, and that is one part of creation. Ekāṁśena sthito jagat [bg. 10.42]. The jagat means this material world. So the whole material, ananta koṭi. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-koṭiṣv aśeṣa vasudhādi vibhūti-bhinnam [bs. 5.40]. This ananta-koṭi-brahmāṇḍa is only one-fourth manifestation of God's creation, and just imagine what is the other three-fourth, that is spiritual world. So the nitya-siddha mahā-bhāgavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Kṛṣṇa Consciousness. This is mahā-bhāgavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but mahā-bhāgavata. How it is tested? Never forgets Kṛṣṇa. This is mahā-bhāgavata nitya-siddha. And sādhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of mahā-bhāgavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become mahā-bhāgavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti 'sādhya' kabhu naya śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Kṛṣṇa personally comes, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata [bg. 4.7]. This is glāniḥ, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become mahā-bhāgavata. So you cannot become a mahā-bhāgavata all of a sudden, but from kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, arcāyām eva haraye yaḥ pūjāṁ śraddhayehate na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ Prākṛtaḥ stage, so prakṛtaḥ stage means just like we are worshiping The Deity, but not only we shall worship Deity but we make advancement. What is that advancement? To become gradually a preacher. That is madhyama-adhikārī, second stage, preacher. Preacher means that, īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca prema-maitrī-kṛpā upekṣāḥ yaḥ karoti sa madhyamaḥ When you become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious by worshiping the Deity regularly, as we have got prescription to rise early in the morning, offer maṅgala-ārati, then kīrtana, then class, in this way practicing, practicing. When you become advanced Kṛṣṇa conscious, then your natural tendency will be how to preach. So long you do not develop this tendency for preaching, simply remain in kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, you do not know how to deliver others, na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu, you do not know how to receive elevated, one elevated devotee, you do not know how to do good to others. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission is not to keep one in the kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, especially those who are born in India. He says bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41] This is principle, para-upakāra, because everyone is suffering. So in the lower stage, everyone should take part very diligently in the worship of the Deity, śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-sṛṅgāra-tan-mandira-mārj anādau **. One should be engaged, everyone should be engaged, śrī-vigrahārādhanam, with Deity worship. What is that Deity worship? Sri, śrī-vigrahārādhana-nitya-nānā-śṛṅgāra **. To decorate the Deity very, very nicely, śṛṅgāra. Tan-mandira-mārjanādau, and to keep the temple, all through, very clean. This kaniṣṭha-adhikārī should be fully engaged in these things, then he becomes gradually, I mean to say, elevated in the madhyama-adhikārī. In the madhyama-adhikārī he can see four things. What is that? Four things means, first of all the Supreme Lord, īśvara, the controller, he can see. He can see means he understands, he appreciates, he can conceive, "Yes, the Supreme Lord is there". There is no more theoretical. So īśvara, and tad-adhīneṣu, and persons who have become devotee, he can understand, "Here is a devotee." Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu. Bāliśa means he knows imperson. They do not know what is God, what is to be done, they are called bāliśa. Just like children, arbhakaḥ, bāliśa. And then dviṣāt, envious. Just like you have experienced so many rascals, as soon as they hear of God, immediately they become agitated. They are called dviṣāt, envious, demons. So four things, God, His devotees, and the innocent person, and the demonic atheist. He can see, madhyama-adhikārī. And then he behaves with these four classes of men differently. What is that? Prema, for Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, how to increase love. That is first business, prema. And those who are devotees, to make friendship with them maitrī. Those who are higher than him, he should offer very respectful obeisances, those who are equal, treat them with nicely, and those who are lower then instruct them, bāliśeṣu. Those who are innocent, how to raise him in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is preaching. And dviṣatsu, upekṣaḥ, those who are atheist, don't associate with them. Don't associate with them. That is the madhyama-adhikārī. And uttama-adhikārī, that is very rarely attained, this stage. Uttama-adhikārī, has only equal, one vision, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu mad-bhaktiṁ labhate. The uttama-adhikārī, he does not think that "He is envious," or "he is this," or "he is that," he sees that everyone is engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is not to be imitated. That Prahlāda Mahārāja is like that. He did not know who is his enemy and who is friend. No, he did not know. He is uttama-adhikārī, mahā-bhāgavata. So this mahā-bhāgavata, this word is very important in this verse, mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ. Immediately, as soon as Brahmā requested, "My dear boy, please pacify." No hesitation, immediately he fell down. Upetya bhuvi kāyena. He is always at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, and, as a child, immediately as Brahmā said, immediately he did. Kāyena upetya nanāma, as it is, he was not to be lesson, that you meant like this, fall down this, no, he knows, everything. Life after life he is doing that. Gaurāṅgera saṅgi-gaṇe, nitya-siddha kori māne. Whenever there is Kṛṣṇa's incarnation, just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu, as soon as He advented Himself, immediately there was Advaitācārya, Nityānanda, and other, many, many devotees. They are guarāṅgera saṅgi, they are not sādhana-bhakti, they are eternally associate. So similarly Prahlāda Mahārāja is also eternally associate. Whenever there is need, by the order of Kṛṣṇa, he is present there to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa. This is our position. Eternal servant. We should not become servant to make some material profit. He is not, he is not śuddha-bhakta. Sa vai vaṇik, Prahlāda Mahārāja. So anyone who serves Kṛṣṇa for some material benefit, sa vai vaṇik. Material benefit means, that śāstra, Kṛṣṇa says that, patraṁ puspaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ yo me bhaktyā prayacchati [bg. 9.26]. So many person comes in the temple for some material benefit. They surrender to the saintly person for some material benefit. "Give me aṣibha (?) benediction.What benediction?I have got ten thousand rupees, make it one lakh by your benediction." So these kind of devotees have been described by Prahlāda Mahārāja as vaṇik, vaṇīya, mercantile. Therefore merchant people, they want to invest two rupees and make, want to make profit ten rupees. So offering Kṛṣṇa little flower and fruit, they want to get some horses and elephant, you see, or very big estate. This is not devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Our position is eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa's position is eternal master. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [bg. 5.29]. He is the enjoyer. He is the proprietor. That is eternally, He is master, and we are eternally servant. If you keep this position, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So mahā-bhāgavata, they know always, they never forget this position, and those who are fallen souls, conditioned souls, they do not know it, so they have to be raised to that stage. That stage, how? So he is also nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-bhakti. Kṛṣṇa-bhakti, as soon as one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious fully, he becomes nitya-siddha again. So either you come by sādhana-bhakti or naturally, the, when you come to the ultimate stage, everyone is nitya-siddha. So nitya-siddha, those who come from Vaikuntha, they are never fallen, never forgets Kṛṣṇa, that is nitya-siddha, and by the teachings of nitya-siddha mahā-bhāgavata, if one follows and then becomes by sādhana-siddha, by regulative principle, they also become nitya-siddha later on. And when one becomes nitya-siddha again, there is no difference between this living entity and that living entity, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu. So tatheti śanakai rājan mahā-bhāgavato 'rbhakaḥ upetya bhuvi kāyena nanāma vidhṛtāñjaliḥ If you simply learn from Prahlāda Mahārāja, simply offer your obeisances, as under the instruction of Brahmā, if you follow the guru, Brahmā is the guru, guru's guru. Prahlāda Mahārāja's guru was Narada and his guru was Brahmā. So our sampradāya is Brahmā, Brahmā sampradāya. There are four sampradāyas. We belong to this Brahmā sampradāya. So sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te niṣphalā. We have to accept one sampradāya, paramparā, and if we follow, just like Prahlāda Mahārāja, exactly under the order of Brahmā and Narada, immediately fell down, so everyone can do it. Here is Kṛṣṇa. So everyone, if he follows mahājana, Brahmā is the first mahājana. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ [sB 6.3.20], Brahmā, his another name is Svayambhū. These are mahājanas. Svayambhūr nāradaḥ śambhuḥ [sB 6.3.20], Kapila, Manu, Prahlāda, Prahlāda is also mahājana. Prahlāda, Janaka, Bhīṣma, bali vaiyāsakiḥ vayam. So Prahlāda Mahārāja is mahājana. He is mahā-bhāgavata. Don't think that he is a little boy. That is his pastime to show us how a little boy can become mahā-bhāgavata, how a little boy can be the eternal associate of Kṛṣṇa, and how he can preach. That is Prahlāda Mahārāja. Thank you very very much. (end) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 How come kripa-siddha always gets ignored? Fact is, a western devotee chanting 16 measly rounds a day and struggling to meet the minimum standard has NO CHANCE of becoming sadhana-siddha. Sadhana-siddha is for greatly austere devotees whose sadhana is thousands of times more rigid than western devotees. Reality is that we should better be praying for and thinking about kripa-siddha. Only an arrogant disciple would ever think he can attain perfection via sadhana-siddha. Purport to Gaurāṇgera Duṭi Pada — Los Angeles, January 6, 1969 There are three kinds of devotees. One is called sādhana-siddha. Sadhana-siddha means by following the regulative principles of devotional service, if one becomes perfect, he's called sādhana-siddha. Another devotee is called kṛpā-siddha. Kṛpā-siddha means even if he has not followed strictly all the regulative principle, still, by the mercy of ācārya or a devotee, or by Kṛṣṇa, he is elevated to the perfectional stage. That is specially. And another devotee is called nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means they were never contaminated. The sādhana-siddha and kṛpā-siddha was contaminated by material touch, and by following regulative principles or by the mercy or grace of some devotee and ācārya they're elevated to the perfectional state. But nitya-siddha means they were never contaminated. They're ever liberated. CC ADI. 8 - <center>TEXT 5</center> <center> muka kavitva kare yan-sabara smarane pangu giri langhe, andha dekhe tara-gane </center> <center>SYNONYMS</center> muka--dumb; kavitva--poet; kare--becomes; yan--whose; sabara--all; smarane--by remembering; pangu--the lame; giri--mountains; langhe--crosses; andha--blind; dekhe--sees; tara-gane--the stars. <center>TRANSLATION</center> By remembering the lotus feet of the Panca-tattva, a dumb man can become a poet, a lame man can cross mountains, and a blind man can see the stars in the sky. <center>PURPORT</center> In Vaisnava philosophy there are three ways for perfection--namely, sadhana-siddha, perfection attained by executing devotional service according to the rules and regulations; nitya-siddha, eternal perfection attained by never forgetting Krsna at any time; and krpa-siddha, perfection attained by the mercy of the spiritual master or another Vaisnava. Kaviraja Gosvami here stresses krpa-siddha, perfection by the mercy of superior authorities. This mercy does not depend on the qualifications of a devotee. By such mercy, even if a devotee is dumb he can speak or write to glorify the Lord splendidly, even if lame he can cross mountains, and even if blind he can see the stars in the sky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy108 Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Reality is that we should better be praying for and thinking about kripa-siddha. Only an arrogant disciple would ever think he can attain perfection via sadhana-siddha. Is it truly arrogant to expect that if a Guru tells you to follow the rules and regs of sadhana, and that you will acheive the perfection of falling in Love with Krsna that it could happen as the Guru suggests? Are you sure about that? I personally believe that thinking about krpa siddha, or praying that we become perfect that way will not hasten it if it is to happen. One one hand, it seems like asking for a short cut because one is lazy or not motivated. Isn't it the Guru's mercy that allows us to engage in the minimum standards he has given? It was the minimum after all. We were instructed to engage in sadhana. That is known. We are instructed to pay obeisances to the Spiritual Master 3 times a day and pray that he continues to be merciful to us, and that we are able to please him in order to advance in our service. Should he wish to confer an immediate wholesale purification and infusion of the perfect ability to represent the Lord's will upon us is up to his prerogative. If for some reason we are struggling at maintaining the minimum standards, it seems more appropriate to me to pray for the mercy to be able to meet the standards. Not to become an overnight perfected preaching mountain moving superstary. Fact is, a western devotee chanting 16 measly rounds a day and struggling to meet the minimum standard has NO CHANCE of becoming sadhana-siddha. Is that a fact? It seems to me that a part of Guru's Krpa is to purify such a sincere devotee chanting the # of (measly) rounds prescribed by the Guru and struggling to meet the minimum standards. To purify him of any impediments so he can advance in sadhana and let it take its course. Perhaps the fact that Krpa Siddhi is rarely mentioned reflects the realities of the importance of sadhana, the likelihood of sadhana being effective by Guru's mercy, and the dangers that focusing too much on the phenomenon of Krpa siddhi might pose to those who should be focused on their sadhana. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Bhaktivinode gave the example of two beggars going to the same house and begging for food. One was given a bowl of freshly cooked rice. The other was given water, dry rice, pot and a place to cook it. He said it was really the same thing as both were the mercy of the householder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Is it truly arrogant to expect that if a Guru tells you to follow the rules and regs of sadhana, and that you will acheive the perfection of falling in Love with Krsna that it could happen as the Guru suggests? Are you sure about that? I personally believe that thinking about krpa siddha, or praying that we become perfect that way will not hasten it if it is to happen. One one hand, it seems like asking for a short cut because one is lazy or not motivated. Isn't it the Guru's mercy that allows us to engage in the minimum standards he has given? It was the minimum after all. We were instructed to engage in sadhana. That is known. We are instructed to pay obeisances to the Spiritual Master 3 times a day and pray that he continues to be merciful to us, and that we are able to please him in order to advance in our service. Should he wish to confer an immediate wholesale purification and infusion of the perfect ability to represent the Lord's will upon us is up to his prerogative. If for some reason we are struggling at maintaining the minimum standards, it seems more appropriate to me to pray for the mercy to be able to meet the standards. Not to become an overnight perfected preaching mountain moving superstary. Is that a fact? It seems to me that a part of Guru's Krpa is to purify such a sincere devotee chanting the # of (measly) rounds prescribed by the Guru and struggling to meet the minimum standards. To purify him of any impediments so he can advance in sadhana and let it take its course. Perhaps the fact that Krpa Siddhi is rarely mentioned reflects the realities of the importance of sadhana, the likelihood of sadhana being effective by Guru's mercy, and the dangers that focusing too much on the phenomenon of Krpa siddhi might pose to those who should be focused on their sadhana. Just a thought. Maybe you didn't read close enough? Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami stressed krpa-siddhi. Maybe you don't agree with Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami? Anyone so proud of themselves to think they can attain perfection with their lame attempts at sadhana is only fooling themselves. Without krpa-siddhi nobody gets out alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy108 Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Maybe you didn't read close enough?Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami stressed krpa-siddhi. Maybe you don't agree with Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami? Anyone so proud of themselves to think they can attain perfection with their lame attempts at sadhana is only fooling themselves. Without krpa-siddhi nobody gets out alive. I see you ignored my question. If your Guru and Acarya tells me it will happen that way, why does it mean I am proud of myself if I believe him? And that I would be fooling myself to believe it possible. Are you off your meds today? How about this question. How long would it take the beginner following the Sadhana of first reading and understanding Bhagavad Gita as it is, and second Srimad Bhagavatam, 1-10, in order, before hearing the opinion of Krsna Das Kaviraja? And he only mentions it ONCE in the entire CC. And Srila Prabhupada's purport describes that KDK is stressing it IN THAT VERSE. In Vaiṣṇava philosophy there are three ways for perfection-namely, sādhana-siddha, perfection attained by executing devotional service according to the rules and regulations; nitya-siddha, eternal perfection attained by never forgetting Kṛṣṇa at any time; and kṛpā-siddha, perfection attained by the mercy of the spiritual master or another Vaiṣṇava. Kavirāja Gosvāmī here stresses kṛpā-siddha, perfection by the mercy of superior authorities. Srila Prabhupada did not stress it so often, though he did mention it was more favorable once in a conversation. As a matter of fact here is his warning about the very pitfalls I described in my last post that you blew off so readily. Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.7 -- Mayapur, February 27, 1977 Just like in our country, perhaps you know, there was a poet, Rabindranath Tagore. He got many distinction from the Oxford University. He got... He never went to school but he got the title "doctor,Doctor Rabindranath Tagore." And if you think that "I shall also get doctorate without going to school," that is foolishness. That is special. Similarly, don't try to imitate. Follow the general course, sādhana-siddhi. The regulative principles you must follow as instructed in the śāstra. Therefore there are so many śāstras. And guru is guide. We must always... Even if you are nitya-siddha or kṛpa-siddha, you should not neglect the general regulative principle. Anyway, I don't see being able to acheive perfection in Sadhana without mercy. For the sake of harmony we can say that Sadhana-siddha is a form of manifestation of Krpa-siddha, but Krpa-siddha can occur without sadhana. I wonder if there are any instances in the scriptures of that happening? I will have to look it up. Here are some. But there are other devotees, who may not have undergone all the required details of devotional service but who, by the special mercy of guru and Kṛṣṇa—the spiritual master and the Supreme Personality of Godhead—have immediately attained the perfection of pure devotional service. Examples of such devotees are the yajña-patnīs, Mahārāja Bali and Śukadeva Gosvāmī. The yajña-patnīs were the wives of ordinary brāhmaṇas engaged in fruitive activities. Although the brāhmaṇas were very learned and advanced in Vedic knowledge, they could not achieve the mercy of Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma, whereas their wives achieved complete perfection in devotional service, despite their being women. Similarly, Vairocani, Bali Mahārāja, received the mercy of Prahlāda Mahārāja, and by Prahlāda Mahārāja’s mercy he also received the mercy of Lord Viṣṇu, who appeared before him as a brahmacārī beggar. Thus Bali Mahārāja became a kṛpā-siddha because of the special mercy of both guru and Kṛṣṇa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I see you ignored my question. If your Guru and Acarya tells me it will happen that way, why does it mean I am proud of myself if I believe him?And that I would be fooling myself to believe it possible. Are you off your meds today? Please show me anywhere in what I posted where I said anything about neglecting to practice sadhana as best one can? You don't have to accuse me of saying something I never said. My point was that even with our best effort at sadhana we are still going to need guru kripa to attain perfection. Our best efforts at sadhana are still very insufficient without the special mercy of Guru-Krsna. Even with 64 rounds a day and all the austerities combined we would still need the kripa to make it. What to speak of 16 rounds a day, four regs and hanging out on the forums all day gossiping about fallen gurus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Kind of a circular discussion. Too much thinking? The practice of sadhana bhakti for the GV centers around the Hare Krishna mantra. The first word of which is Hare which is a call to the most merciful aspect of Krishna, Radharani, to be engaged in service. Bhaktivinode gave the example of twobeggars going to the same house and begging for food. One was given abowl of freshly cooked rice. The other was given water, dry rice, potand a place to cook it. He said it was really the same thing as bothwere the mercy of the householder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy108 Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Please show me anywhere in what I posted where I said anything about neglecting to practice sadhana as best one can? You don't have to accuse me of saying something I never said. For your short memory. After posting a nice lecture and hoping to stimulate discussion on sadhana and nitya siddhas which were mentioned on another thread, you said the following. How come kripa-siddha always gets ignored?Fact is, a western devotee chanting 16 measly rounds a day and struggling to meet the minimum standard has NO CHANCE of becoming sadhana-siddha. Only an arrogant disciple would ever think he can attain perfection via sadhana-siddha. To which I replied. Is it truly arrogant to expect that if a Guru tells you to follow the rules and regs of sadhana, and that you will acheive the perfection of falling in Love with Krsna that it could happen as the Guru suggests? Are you sure about that? It seems to me that a part of Guru's Krpa is to purify such a sincere devotee chanting the # of (measly) rounds prescribed by the Guru and struggling to meet the minimum standards. To purify him of any impediments so he can advance in sadhana and let it take its course. To which you replied. Maybe you didn't read close enough?Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami stressed krpa-siddhi. Maybe you don't agree with Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami? Anyone so proud of themselves to think they can attain perfection with their lame attempts at sadhana is only fooling themselves. And I asked you again I see you ignored my question. If your Guru and Acarya tells me it will happen that way, why does it mean I am proud of myself if I believe him?And that I would be fooling myself to believe it possible. But then added for harmony sake. Anyway, I don't see being able to acheive perfection in Sadhana without mercy. For the sake of harmony we can say that Sadhana-siddha is a form of manifestation of Krpa-siddha, but Krpa-siddha can occur without sadhana. So I was not accusing you of something you never said. You said what you said, and it seemed unnecessary, indefensible, and against what Srila Prabhupada offers on the matter. So when you end saying.. My point was that even with our best effort at sadhana we are still going to need guru kripa to attain perfection. To that I reply, why didn't you just say that instead of getting all up in the ol grill? And then claiming such innocence? I thought you passed the troll baton? If you can't be more temperate why toss your frustrated aspersions into an honest innocent thread? And you think I won't engage you on it? You should know me better by now. No offense, but if you want to toss your scat around, do it somewhere else please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Krsna is so lovable that simply by associating with Him, one falls in love. This is how it all works. Krsna and His name are identical, so associating with Him that way also kindles that love. Remembering Him, the same. Each of the nine processes of devotional service - all the same, falling in love with the Lovable. When this love ripens and manifests in various levels of deeper and deeper honesty and sincerity and separation, then comes kripa, if Krsna so choses. It is like that saying: don't try to see Krsna, but rather try to make Krsna want to see you. But make no mistake, no matter how involved and structured the program may seem, it is simply about falling in love, falling in love with the Lovable, Sri Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 We are instructed to pay obeisances to the Spiritual Master 3 times a day dhyayan stuvams tasya yasas trisandhyam. One chants the diksa mantras given by Sri Guru at the beginning of each sandhyam, which means three times a day. So after diksa mantras one pays obeisances, dandavats to the Spiritual Master. But literally dhyayan means to meditate and the trisandhyam means the three parts of the day which is 8 hours times 3 = 24 hours. a day. IOW that one should meditate on the lotus feet of Sri Guru, 24 hours a day. Srila Prabhupada: Read Krsna book regularly. Why these books are written? Only for selling? Taking statistics, “How many books you have sold?” You learn, read. Always read, twenty-four hours. As soon as you get time, read. I do that. I do that. Reading, writing, or chanting. But when there is no other way, you sleep little. Not to enjoy sleep, but because it is not possible to continue, all right, sleep one hour, two hours, three hours, four hours, five hours. Not more than that. Not that I am sleeping, enjoying life, up to eight o’clock, twelve o’clock. (720423SB.TOK Lectures) But what is this conception of twenty-four hours of devotional service a day? Actually it is only possible in the line of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, sri rupa-raghunatha-pade yara asa. Srila Prabhupada: ārādhyo bhagavān vrajeśa tanayas tad dhāma śrī vrṇdāvanam ramyā kācid upāsanā vrajavadhū vargeṇa vā kalpitā śrīmad-bhāgavatam amalaṁ purāṇaṁ śrī-caitanya mahāprabhor matam idaṁ tatrādarāḥ na paraḥ The Personality of Godhead Śrī Krishna, Who is known as the son of the King of Vrajadhāma i.e. Śrī Nanda Mahārajā, is the ultimate worshipful Lord of all Lords. Similarly His residential abode namely the holy place of Vṛndāvana is as much worshipful as the Lord is Himself. The ways of His worship maybe various but the one which was conceived by the circle of the damsels of Vrajadhāma is unsurpassable by any other devotee. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Purāṇam is the unalloyed guidance for this purpose of approaching the worshipful Lord and that is the sum total opinion or cultural philosophy of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We shall therefore as duty-bound must bow down our heads before the cult and shall not accept any other cultural movement whatsoever. http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=176600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy108 Posted February 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 dhyayan stuvams tasya yasas trisandhyam Paying obeisances by His Pranama Mantra are a method of meditating on his Lotus feet. That is what the Pranama Mantra is all about. At least 3 time a day. But this act in itself goes deeper. stuvams = send forth a prayer. What are we praying for? yasya prasadad Bhagavat prasado. That by Guru's mercy we become empowered to please him with our service, and receive Bhagavat Prasado. It is an intrinsic cycle. By Guru's mercy we may please Guru and by extension get mercy from Bhagavan. The act of paying obeisances and glorifying our Guru is pleasing to Bhagavan. But I agree to extend that and pray for Guru's mercy that we may execute our daily service in a pleasing fashion, thus endearing us more to Krsna. We Pray for mercy. His mercy enables us to please him. We receive Bhagavan's benediction. And the cycle continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya Srila Prabhupada - "Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual (the eternal present) reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupada of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) but as our dreaming secondary non Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967 This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE however, don’t delude yourself, those dreams are very real but temporary, so factually we do fall down, we do experience the material world as real and the fact is, whether we like it or not, yes, we are in the material world because the awareness of Goloka and our svarupa body is covered by the reality we have created in the material world, it’s very real and only called an illusion because it is temporary, it fades, we see old age disease and death – even that’s experienced as real, even though temporary. There is a fine line between reality and illusion, one is imperishable and the other is perishable – explained in a nutshell! Srila Prabhupada - “Because they (jiva tattva) are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. (Bhäg. 2.5.19, Srila Prabhupada - “Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. (Bhäg. 2.5.19, Srila Prabhupada - “This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity’s eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant.” (Bhäg. 2.5.19, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Similarly, there was no necessity to create this material world for the sufferings of the conditioned souls, but at the same time there are certain living entities, known as nitya-baddha, who are eternally conditioned. We say that they have been conditioned from time immemorial because no one can trace out when the living entity, the part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, became rebellious against the supremacy of the Lord. (Which means originally the nitya baddhas were all nitya siddha devotees) (Bhäg. 3.26.5, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “It is a fact that there are two classes of men... Without tracing out the beginning of the existence of these two classes, we can take it for granted that some of the living entities revolted against the laws of the Lord. Such entities are called conditioned souls (nitya-baddhas)... Covered by the material body, the spiritual identity (nitya-siddha) is lost, and therefore the word mumuhe is used here, indicating that they have forgotten their own spiritual identity (nitya-siddha).” (Bhäg. 3.26.5, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “It is clear that a particular body is given to the living entity for a particular type of activity. This process is going on perpetually, from a time which it is impossible to trace out. (Bhäg. 3.31.44, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Vaishava poets say, therefore, anädi karama-phale, which means that these actions and reactions of one’s activity cannot be traced, for they may even continue from the last millennium of Brahmä’s birth to the next millennium.” (Bhäg. 3.31.44, purport) Srila Prabhupada - “Eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) means we do not know when we have been conditioned like this. It is not possible to trace out the history. Because living entity, by nature, he is not conditioned NOT nitya-baddha). But actually we see that we are conditioned, and there is no possibility to trace out the history. (Cc. lecture, January 9, 1967, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “Many, many Brahmä’s life. Not only one Brahmä’s. There are so many Brahmäs changed, and we are conditioned. So therefore we are called eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha).” (Cc. lecture, January 9, 1967, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “So some way or other, originally, we are all Krishna conscious, pure, svaccha. Svacchatvam avikäritvam. Now, being transformed or agitated somehow or other... Anädi-karama-phale, padi’ bhavärëava-jale. We cannot ascertain when this transformation took place... (Bhäg. lecture, January 1, 1975, Bombay Srila Prabhupada - “How we fell, you can trace out the history, but it is very difficult because anädi karama phale, nobody can ascertain. Just like when a man is diseased, he goes to doctor... There is no necessity to find out the history how he fell diseased. (Bhäg. lecture, January 1, 1975, Bombay Srila Prabhupada - “There is history (just like the cause of many cancers is unknown). Therefore it is said, anädi karama-phale. Anädi. Anädi means... Ädi means the creation. Creation... before creation, I [become] contaminated [with] this desire, icchä-dveña samutthena.” (Bhäg. lecture, January 1, 1975, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada - “And there are innumerable spiritual living entities also. And some of them, those who are not fit to live in that spiritual world, they are, I mean to say, sent to this material world”. (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “The same idea is expressed in Milton’s Paradise Lost. So we, all conditioned souls, we are practically living in a place after Paradise Lost. We should understand this... (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are spirit soul. We should not have accepted this material body. But when we have accepted, how we accepted, there cannot be any tracing of history. It is not possible. Anädi karama. Anädi karama. (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “Nobody can trace out the history, when we, the conditioned soul, accepted this material body.” (Lecture, April 23, 1969, Buffalo, New York) Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, ‘...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?...’ You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (or nitya baddhas). Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent.” (Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968) Srila Prabhupada - "Established means re-establish. It's (our nitya-siddha body) is already established. That is called svarupa-siddhi. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship is. This relationship is eternal". Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” Lecture August 6, 1973 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Username: Svarupa <!-- v3 Arcade --> <!-- /v3 Arcade --> Join Jun 2007 Posts: 12,876,453 <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: postbit_reputation --> No–one falls from Goloka, we only 'think' and 'dream' we fall There is always free will, that’s up to them, but no, they never falldown from that exalted level but it is not impossible for them to fall down, any jiva-tattva can fall down. Prabhupada has told us this but has said they do not come to this dangerous material creation unless it's for lila or pastime For real love to exist, there must be that choice to be with Krishna or with ones own self centred desires of grandeur. That ability to choose must be there otherwise the gopis and all the other inhabitants of Goloka and Vaikuntha are robots, androids or the Borg (assimilated into the Kingdom of God) There must be freewill to express love, that means choices if you count in the 'eternal present' of Goloka that has no past or future, meaning everything and every 'body' is already there, the full eternal position and potential of our tatastha or marginal position is ALWAYS in Goloka. So if our full potential is already there in Goloka due to the infallible state of the ‘eternal present’, isn't it obvious it is from there we originate even though it is said we are from the position of tatastha. (Simple meaning to choose between the ocean and the land or Krishna and the mahat-tattva) Do you understand what I am trying to say mataji? Tatastha is not a place or realm within the universe, it is the natural state of the jiva, ultimately meaning 'having the ability to choose this side or that side, to stay in Goloka or enter the mahat tattva. We are both correct but are seeing this from different perspectives. In other words, because of the simultaneous one a different aspect of Lord Caitanya’s teachings, we are always in Goloka (because of the eternal present) and tatastha-sakti simultaneously. Srila Prabhupada never gave that much emphasis on the word tatastha in his books and preferred to use the word marginal more often in his books, e.g the marginal living entity Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion (vibhinnamsa) is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968 It is intense love due to separation. Therefore it is very common in this circumstance that one or even many of the gopis may pretend to be Krishna in order to remember Him and ease the pangs of separation for other gopis as well. This kind of love felt in separation is the highest love because it is love expressed due to dominant missed association as Prabhupada’s Nectar of Devotion teaches. The dreaded selfish sub-conscious fall down from Goloka, where the living entity is actually not only imitating Krishna but trying to be Krishna, IS due to envy. How can this happen even in Goloka? The answer is free will and the ability is choose. Without that choice, we would be mindless androids or slaves. Choice allows us to FOREVER increase our love for Krishna in our unique individual way that makes us the marginal living entity we eternally are. Or if we choose, we can forget Krishna and the body we serve Krishna as and ‘do our own thing’ in the mahat-tattva (material creation) In this way, unlike the gopis who most NEVER fall down, even though they have the free will to choose so if they desire, we have foolishly chosen to try and imitate Krishna in Goloka selfishly and not out of love as the gopis do. It is important to understand 90% of the inhabitants in Goloka and Vaikuntha never ever fall down because it is simply their choice to never ‘sub-consciously’ stop ‘thinking’ and ‘dreaming’ of serving Krishna and his dear pure devotees. Therefore it is our selfish sub-conscious desires that make us unfit to remain aware of Goloka that expel us, that expel our awareness of who we really are from Goloka and the memory of our perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body .(who we really are eternally) becomes forgotten due to being lost in our mistaken dreams and thoughts So only the awareness of who we are is expelled from Goloka and NOT our Spiritual svarupa body. Therefore always remember that our vigraha, svarupa or nitya-siddha spiritual body can never fall down from Goloka, only our mistaken dreams, thoughts and desires do and take us (our awareness of reality) to the material creation where we can have a shot at being god. This sub-conscious state of restricted awareness is known as the nitya-baddha-jiva or baddha-jiva that refers to the living entities inferior self or secondary self which is a sub-conscious extension of their full eternal bodily identity and potential in Goloka. What is explained above is the correct understanding of the origin of the ‘jiva soul’ that is really understood by Krishna’s mercy and never by jnan (knowledge) on its own Srila Prabhupada - ‘When the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’(Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p> 4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p> So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Paramahamsa: Fall down?<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - ‘‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here". Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are". <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left". <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - "Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully". (Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p> 4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’(Srimad-Bhagavatam<u1:p></u1:p> 4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada - "The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha).Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54,purport)<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned (baddha-jiva), there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease". The Spiritual Sky or its other words 'the Brahmajyoti' or the Brahman, is full of Spiritual Vaikuntha planets and eternally embodied nitya-siddhas (which is ALL of us) However, within that same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, is the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu, Who provides a 'mahat tattva' or material body to all nitya-baddha-jivas that enter His temporary material creation after they have sub-consciously extended, projected and withdrawn themselves from their their nitya-siddha body in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Only within the mahat-tattva can the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (impersonal Brahman) exist. Technically, the entire mahat-tattva is impersonal. One can only enter it as a bodiless conscious spark that ORIGINATES from Goloka-Vrndavana. This secondary sub-conscious state (nitya-baddha) is projected and originates from ones real bodily form (nitya-siddha) in Goloka. So it is very clear here that all living entities originate from Goloka. The nitya-baddha-jiva is actually a formless individual until Maha Vishnu provides such ‘consciousness’ with a bodily vessel. The Mayavadis or impersonalists cannot understand this. All they see is the mahat tattva and the formless spark of conscious. This is due to denying the fact there is a Goloka, which is the origin of ALL living entities and their beginingless and endless nitya-siddha body Try to understand what Prabhupada is telling us. Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…(In Vaikuntha) so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material”. Srila Prabhupada – “Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with (This biological body or vessel and the material creation). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 We do not evolve in 'consciousness' to the Krsnaloka realm, with the foolish idea we have never been to Krsnaloka. Srila Prabhupada also clearly rejected that idea as impersonal because we are actually already there in Krsnaloka and ALWAYS have been. How is that possible?? It is a fact that we are ALL ALREADY in Krsnaloka in our FULL eternal Krsna Conscious state as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body. However, presently that 'AWARENESS' is covered by our selfish non-Krsna conscious desires. We therefore cannot see and act in that fully eternally developed consciousness of who WE really are because of our choice and free will to forget Krsna (which means we also forget the body we serve Krsna as). Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) This means there is NO evolution of consciousness in regards to our original perpetual bodily identity because that body already eternally exists, we simply have to regain the memory of who we really are. We simply have to once again regain the 'awareness 'of who we really are. We do not grow consciously out of a plain sheet of dormant consciousness and evolve to reach Krsnaloka, but rather, are always are in the process of regaining or re-establishing who we are originally. In the material creation, we are simply in the process of recovering who we really are Even if we did fall out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti, then long, long, long before that we were ALL in Krsnaloka in full 'awareness' of our reall bodily nitya-siddha identity. Srila Prabhupada – "When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada - "You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud .. You are ever-liberated” Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha Krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position that is called svarupa-siddhi". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition ), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 under Madhudvisa Swami A devotee -"Original spiritual form in Vaikuntha" means a form that exists in the "present moment". (You should be happy that we have achieved a meeting of the minds on this point.) But does it mean a form, which we had in the past, then lost and will regain - although we will regain a form that always exists in the "present moment". Answer – Nothing is lost or gained in Goloka except for our memory and 'awareness' of who we really are. Everything is set eternally there is in a state of the living entities 'full potential originality as a nitya siddha embodied devotee of Krsna or Vishnu', which means ALL living entities or jiva sparks, have a Svarupa body that is eternally unchangeable, eternally youthful, eternally original and eternal a person with bodily form sat, chit, Ananda, VIGRAHA. In this way, without argument, we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion and understand without any doubts, that we ALL came down from Goloka long, long, long ago, not as our nitya-siddha-svarupa body, but as a dreaming projection known as the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness. Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 Srila Prabhupada - "You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967 Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 <!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________ http://www.prabhupadabooks.com/Lets go back home back to Godhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 The word kuta-stha, meaning "without change," is also very significant. There are two kinds of living entities-nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. A nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is nitya-mukta. Such a nitya-mukta living entity represents the Supersoul as His expansion. As stated in the Vedas, nityo nityanam. Thus the nitya-mukta living entity knows that he is an expansion of the supreme nitya, or the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp. The dreamervadi doctrine of Gauragopal is based on the assumption that what Srila Prabhupada wrote in this purport is a lie and that in fact nitya-siddhas do in fact forget Krishna at some point in their eternal life. For the dreamervadi doctrine to be correct there would have to some important verses in shastra that are in fact false. Who is correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Some living entities are conditioned, and others are eternally free. The eternally free living entities are called nitya-mukta, for they never come in contact with the material energy. However, some living entities are conditioned in this material world, and thus they think themselves separated from the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 4.24.61, purp.) For the Dreamervadi doctrine of Gauragopal to be correct this statement by Srila Prabhupada would have to false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga-maya, not maha-maya. Therefore it is to understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 One who is not materially infected and who does not forget Krsna as his master is called nitya-mukta. In other words, one who is eternally liberated from material contamination is called nitya-mukta. From time immemorial the nitya-mukta living entity has always been a devotee of Krsna, and his only attempt has been to serve Krsna. Thus he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 An explanation of verses 8 through 15 is given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Amrta-pravaha-bhasya . . . The living entities are divided into two categories.the eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy . . . The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy. Sometimes an ever-liberated personal associate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends into this universe just as the Lord descends. Although working for the liberation of conditioned souls, the messenger of the Supreme Lord remains untouched by the material energy. Generally ever-liberated personalities live in the spiritual world as associates of Lord Krsna, and they are known as krsna-parsada, associates of the Lord. Their only business is enjoying Lord Krsna's company, and even though such eternally liberated persons come within this material world to serve the Lord's purpose, they enjoy Lord Krsna's company without stoppage . . . The ever-conditioned soul, provoked by lusty desires to enjoy the material world, is subjected to transmigrate from one body to another . . . If by chance he meets a saintly person who works on Krsna's behalf to deliver conditioned souls, and if he agrees to abide by his order, he can gradually approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. (Cc Madhya-lila 22.14-15, purp.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 The third-class person in Krsna consciousness may fall down, but when one is in the second class he does not fall down, and for the first-class person in Krsna consciousness there is no chance of falling down. (Bg. 9.3, purport) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature . . . they are counted among the associates of Krsna. (Teachings of Lord Caitanya, p. 108) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness . . . you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me . . . they are almost as powerful as I am . . . they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 There are two kinds of souls: conditioned and liberated, nitya-baddha, nitya-mukta. Just like we are, similarly, there are living entities in the spiritual sky also, but they are liberated. They never become conditioned. We are conditioned. We do not know from when, but we are conditioned. So jiva yara vasi. In this material world, we conditioned, we are residents. But in the spiritual world the residents are all liberated souls. Jagal-laksmi rakhi' rahe yahan maya dasi. (670105CC.NY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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