Nitya-Sadhana Siddha/Maha Bhagavata, Srila Prabhupada clears the air.

Sonic Yogi · February 19, 2009

They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world.(Bhag. Lecture, June 20, 1973, Mayapura)

Sonic Yogi · February 19, 2009

The nitya-muktas are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. Those in the material world are conditioned souls, nitya-baddha. The nitya-baddhas can become liberated by controlling the mind because the cause of conditioned life is the mind. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purp.)

Sonic Yogi · February 19, 2009

There are two kinds of living entities. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world; they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither do they know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya-siddhas. Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha, nitya-baddha. Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddhas.
Anyone who is in this material world, nitya-baddha. And nitya-siddhas, they never come in contact with this material world, and even they come for some business under the order of the Supreme Lord, they do not touch these material qualities. They remain always transcendental. As Krsna remains always transcendental, even though He is in this material world, similarly, Krsna's nitya-siddha associates, they are also transcendental. They never touch this material world. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London)

Beggar · February 19, 2009

Inconceivable Topics

by

Swami B.G. Narasingha

Question: I have heard it said recently by some devotees that the origin of the jiva (regarding the soul's falling or not falling from the lila of Krsna) is inconceivable and that we cannot imagine or understand how or from where the soul has come into this material world. Can you please comment on this controversial topic?

Answer: With our tiny brains so many things in Krsna consciousness are inconceivable. Not only is the origin of the soul inconceivable but Krsna's name, His form, qualities, and pastimes are all inconceivable to us. Who could conceive that the Absolute Truth (the source of all existence) is crawling as an infant child in the courtyard of Nanda Maharaja or suckling the breast of Mother Yasoda?

The great devotee, Raghupati Upadhyaya says,

srutim apare smrtim itare bharatam anye bhajantu bhava-bhitah

aham iha nandam vande yasyalinde param brahma

"Those who are afraid of material existence worship the Vedic literature. Some worship

smrti

, the corollaries to the Vedic literature, and others worship the

Mahabharata

. As far as I am concerned, I worship Krsna's father, Maharaja Nanda, in whose courtyard the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Absolute Truth, is playing."

That the Absolute Truth is crawling in the courtyard of Nanda Maharaja is inconceivable to even the greatest thinkers that the world has ever known, but it is a fact.

When we rely on the capacity of our tiny brain then all such things may be inconceivable. Knowledge or proper understanding of the Absolute Truth is obtained through the descending process (avaroha) and not through the ascending process (aroha). Aroha depends on the mind and senses, which are inherently defective and thus knowledge obtained in this way is also defective or incomplete.

Avaroha means the process of receiving transcendental knowledge through the disciplic succession of self-realized souls. Such knowledge when received submissively enables one to understand the Absolute Truth.

The sound that comes to us through (disciplic succession) the process of avaroha is also called sabda-brahma or transcendental sound vibration that is not subject to bhrama (mistakes), pramada (illusion), vipralipsa (cheating), or karanapatava (imperfect perception).

On the other hand any form of knowledge or understanding (particularly regarding the Absolute Truth) sought through the process of aroha is most certainly wrought with the four defects of bhrama, pramada, vipralipsa, and karanapatava.

If we want to know the origin of the soul or to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead we must first hear from authorities with faith (sraddha). This is called sravana-dasa, hearing from authorities with faith.

Then comes varana-dasa, acceptance. When we faithfully hear from authorities the next natural step is to accept what the authorities have said. Only faith allows us to embrace transcendental knowledge. If for some reason we lack the essential faith and rely on our tiny brains for understanding, then the truth remains inconceivable and beyond our understanding or power of recognition. When we lack the proper faith then even after hearing the truth we will fail to recognize it.

Acceptance or varana-dasa must be followed by sadhana-dasa, the stage of practice. Practice means to follow in the footsteps. This means that the knowledge from spiritual authorities must be followed and passed on to others without adding anything of our own concoction. What the self-realized authorities say we accept as truth.

Then we come to the stage of prapana-dasa or attainment. In prapana-dasa there is realization of the Absolute Truth. That which has been accepted on the basis of faith now becomes fully realized.

By the grace of our spiritual teachers we can accept the truth after hearing with faith and thus such matters as the inconceivable origin of the jiva can easily be understood even in our neophyte stage of spiritual life.

If we do not have real faith then even after hearing the truth we will not accept it or embrace it fully. The issue of the origin of the jiva is only inconceivable in the minds of those devotees who have not embraced the transcendental knowledge passed down in our disciplic succession.

Our spiritual master Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has stated:

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." (S.B. purport, 3.16.26)

Shortly before the close of Srila Prabhupada's manifest pastimes he left instruction that if his disciples had any questions regarding philosophy that they should approach his godbrother, Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja.

As it turned out, the origin of the jiva and the jivas falling or not falling from the spiritual world was one of the first philosophical questions to be raised after the departure of Srila Prabhupada. Thus the disciples of Srila Prabhupada approached his godbrother Srila B.R. Sridhara Maharaja for clarification and instruction. Srila Sridhar Deva Goswami Maharaja stated as follows:

"The

brahma-jyoti,

the non-differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite

jiva

souls, atomic spiritual particles of non-differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the

brahma-jyoti,

and a pencil of a ray of the

brahma-jyoti

is the

jiva

. The

jiva

soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the

brahma-jyoti

is a product of an infinite number of

jiva

atoms.

"Generally, souls emanate from the

brahma-jyoti

which is living and growing. Within the

brahma-jyoti

, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the

jiva

is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

"Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective -- there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself." (Sri Krsna - Reality the Beautiful, ch-4, Origin of the Soul)

When approached about this subject, Srila Sridhara Maharaja made no reference whatsoever to the jiva ever having been in the lila of Krsna before his having fallen down to this material world. Rather Srila Sridhara Maharaja makes it quite clear that the jiva originates in the marginal plane of existence.

This is called srota-pantha, hearing and accepting knowledge through the disciplic succession. Those who struggle with embracing the proper Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta regarding to origin of the soul (as described above) are either the victims of a poor fund of faith or they are simply suffering from the reactions of vaisnava-aparadha.

When we lack the essential faith to hear from authorities about the knowledge pertaining to even the simplest truth (as the jiva issue) then what chance do we stand to understand the higher lilas of Radha and Krsna in Vrndavana, where every word is a song and every step is a dance and from where once having gone no one ever returns.

Sonic Yogi · February 23, 2009

December, 21 1968 Los Angeles, Calif.

My Dear Harer Nama,

(excerpt)

Your second question about falling down from the brahmajyoti is answered that it is not that one must fall down, but that they generally fall down. There is a verse in Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10th canto, 2nd chapter, verse 26.

"My Dear Lotus Eyed Personality of Godhead, persons who are very proud of becoming one with the brahma effulgence and thereby consider that they have become liberated are factually in a contaminated consciousness on account of the absence of devotional service unto You. Such persons may rise to a high level of spiritual understanding as far as the impersonal brahmajyoti but on account of the lack of devotional service unto You, they generally fall down again into material contamination."

http://www.prabhupada1968.com/2004_12_19_archive.html

Sarva gattah · February 25, 2009

Introduction by unknown author that first appeared on the World Wide Web of the North European BBT in the mid 1990s

One may rightly ask,” If I am originally a pure servant of God, then why did I come to the material world in the first place? If there is no ignorance in the spiritual world, then why did I leave that wonderful place and come here, where I am suffering repeated births and deaths?” This is a good question, and one that Srila Prabhupada has elaborately explained.

Every living being, either in the material or spiritual world, has free will. Because we are minute parts of the Supreme, we have minute quantities of His qualities. One of Krishna’s qualities is independent free will. He does whatever He likes, whenever He likes, and it is always perfect.

He is never bound by the reactions of His decisions, because He is transcendental to the material nature. Because we do not possess the same quantity of free will as Krishna, we can sometimes do what we like and sometimes not. Further, whenever we act, we have to suffer or enjoy the reactions of that decision.

Every living being in the spiritual world loves Krishna. This is the nature of the spiritual world. However, that love is not forced. For example, if I were to hold a gun to your head and say,” Love me,” you would naturally say,” Oh, yes, I love you.” But that would have no meaning. You cannot force anyone to love another person, for love comes from within naturally when the proper conditions arise.

Therefore, Krishna does not force the living entities to love Him, for that would not be real love and it would not be satisfying to the Supreme Lord, who knows everything that is going on in the hearts of the living entities.

Krishna is satisfied only by pure, natural and spontaneous love, without any traces of self-motivated desire. Therefore Krishna endows each and every living entity with free will. With this free will, one can love Krishna or one cannot love Krishna. The choice is entirely up to the living entity. Those living beings that love Krishna are situated in the spiritual world, whereas those living beings that don’t love Krishna are situated in the material world.

Those who don’t love Krishna, or who have become envious of the Lord’s position as the Supreme Enjoyer, cannot remain in the spiritual world for a moment. If it so happens that a living entity becomes envious of the Lord for some reason, then he immediately falls from the spiritual world, for no envy of the Lord exists in the spiritual world. Remember, the choice to love Krishna or not exists in each of us eternally.

Envy comes as the opposite of love, for it is created from hatred. Hatred and love are very closely related, and each of us has experience of how we can become immediately envious of others, even if our intelligence has not yet accepted that emotion.

Therefore, when the living entity feels enviousness for the Lord, he immediately turns into a competitor of the Lord and desires to enjoy as the Lord enjoys.

Such desires cannot remain in the spiritual world, because everyone there is considering themselves as enjoyed by the Lord; they never want to become the enjoyers themselves. Because this desire to become the competitor of the Lord as the enjoyer is spiritual (as all desires in the spiritual world come from the spiritual platform, since all the living entities there are completely spiritual), it must be immediately satisfied.

Every desire in the spiritual world is immediately satisfied, because that is the nature of the spiritual world. But since the desire to be the Lord oneself is not possible to satisfy in the spiritual world, as Krishna is the enjoyer and there cannot be any competitor there, one comes to the material world in order to attempt to fulfil that desire.

The material world is a marvellous place, because here the Lord has created the grand illusion that we can become God and enjoy the creation independently of Him. Krishna has created this illusion out of love for us, the fallen souls.

It is not in our power to create such a facility, which can be likened to a playground created by the father for the sake of his small children.

Only Krishna can create such a facility, and He does so just to allow us souls the opportunity to think ourselves God and try to enjoy the material energy. The only problem is that this so-called enjoyment is illusory and cannot remain for long. Everything here is temporary and full of misery.

Why has Krishna created a world that is temporary and full of misery? The answer is simple: Because He does not want us to stay here. He wants us to find out that we have made a mistake in coming to the material world and to thus return to our original home, the spiritual world.

Therefore He orders the material energy to push the conditioned souls toward frustration, so that they will someday again turn toward the Lord, who is within their hearts as the Supersoul of all beings, and surrender unto Him.

The Lord says that anyone who thus surrenders unto Him will quickly return to Him. The Lord also assists the living entities by sending His pure devotees to speak the knowledge of the spiritual world to them to again awaken them to their real position. He also presents the Vedic literature to open their eyes with transcendental knowledge.

He is so concerned for the living entities that He periodically descends from the spiritual world Himself in order to display His transcendental pastimes and attract the conditioned souls back to His eternal abode.

One may also ask, If I had full knowledge in my spiritual position—for we say that the soul is eternally full of knowledge and bliss—why did I come to the material world, knowing that it is a place of suffering? The answer is again simple. One is full of knowledge in the same way that a small glass is full of water.

When the glass is filled with water, we say that it is full. However, no sane person would accept that all the water in the world is in that glass. Only a small portion of the water is in the glass. Since we are quantitatively different from the Lord, we can conclude that our quantity of bliss and knowledge is much smaller than that of the Lord.

However, since we are smaller receptacles of knowledge, we can easily be full of knowledge according to our smaller capacity. This does not mean that we possess all knowledge. It means that we possess only a small portion of knowledge—enough to fulfil all our needs in relationship with Krishna. Therefore the living entity, covered by envy, cannot recognize that he will suffer in the material world, just as a lusty person does not consider the results of his actions as he rushes forward to satisfy his lusty desires. Covered by lust, the living entity forgets his original knowledge and enters into the material domain to try to satisfy his desires. END OF INTRODUCTION BY unknown aurthor prabhu

COMMENT – The conclusion by some devotees of this issue is that we should just accept Prabhupada’s Crow and Tal Fruit Logic letter he sent to us Australian devotees in 1972, of whom I was one of them, as final and no one should have the ‘audacity’ to disobey Prabhupada and discuss this is issue. There are other letters and lectures where Prabhupada encouraged devotees to ‘try and understand where our origins are from’

Devotees interested in apparent logical contradictions surrounding the "fall of the jiva" read the following paper on the topic, which Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic, however, keep in mind that Prabhupada did discuss this issue in letters and lectures especially in Mayapur in 1976 where he stated some devotees haven’t got the mental capacity to understand the ‘origin of the soul’, Prabhupada on that occasion said ‘they don’t want to understand!! The following letter from Srila Prabhupada however, more or less told the devotees to let the issue be, the following letter came as an attachment to a letter from Srila Prabhupada to Madhudvisa dasa dated June 6, 1972.”

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

Ø "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there.

Ø There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going.

Ø Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

Ø We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going.

Ø Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only.

Ø Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

Ø So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent.

Ø Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals.

Ø So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

Ø So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down.

Ø But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Ø Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions?

Ø So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Ø Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila.

Ø Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime.

Ø Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Ø Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions.

Ø Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna.

Ø Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way.

Ø Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

Now it is very important to realize on many other occasions Prabhupada told us we should inquire and understand what our origin’s are

Those people who narrow mindly see only this one instruction on this topic are not seeing the full picture and are entitled to their opinions on the other hand, Prabhupada also gave other instructions we SHOULD try and understand and at many times said that we should try to comprehend

Sarva gattah · February 25, 2009

Some devotees once said in Mayapur that it is too difficult to understand how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed. Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand. We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire.

Here is Srila Prabhupada's response.

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

Some foolish scholars, sanyasis and gurus also say Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are very autocratic and dictatorial that denies one the right to investigate for themselves ‘the origin of the jiva-soul’. There sometimes arrogant determination on this point is revealed by their attempts to scare you into submission by breaking your spirit and cleverly making you believe non-one can help you understand or guide you except them. To achieve this witty attempt to make you submissive, they constantly chip away at your spirit, moulding you into what they want you to be, until your self-esteem is broken just like a horse is broken in and forced to be submissive and just obey without ‘thinking’. This dangerous ‘cult’ mentality is just a further episode of the juvenile pioneering immaturity of the modern revival of the Vaishnava societies and not to be taken seriously. On many other occasions Prabhupada told us we should inquire and understand what our origin’s are – this book is doing exactly that.

Other than this issue on the ‘origin of the jiva’ however, I do appreciate, respect and are often moved by devotees like Harikesa’s prabhu’s preaching as the introduction to this Book reveals

Srila Prabhupada ‘personally’ told me (Gauragopala dasa) once in the Sydney Temple room in February 1973 (while I was cleaning) that the body I now have is not my real body and that my real body is in Vaikuntha “You just have to realize it” he added “It is there right now” he further explained. Being very young I did not fully appreciate what he was saying

As previously explained, some devotees once said in Mayapur in 1976 that it is too difficult to understand how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed as Prabhupada had previously told his Australian devotees in 1972 however on this occasion he says the opposite and tells the devotees they should try to understand.

We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand.

We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire.

Here again is Srila Prabhupada's response to those who believe it is too difficult to understand we ALL came down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada - "originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti

‘sadhya’ kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

Srila Prabhupada - "Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world" Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual (the eternal present) reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE however, don’t delude yourself, those dreams are very real but temporary, so factually we do fall down, we do experience the material world as real and the fact is, whether we like it or not, yes, we are in the material world because the awareness of Goloka and our svarupa body is covered by the reality we have created in the material world, it’s very real and only called an illusion because it is temporary, it fades, we see old age disease and death – even that’s experienced as real, even though temporary. There is a fine line between reality and illusion, one is imperishable and the other is perishable – explained in a nutshell!

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

These are the words of Lord Caitanya: The jiva's constitutional or inherent position is that of servant of Krsna because he is tatastha s’akti, the marginal potency, a manifestation one with and different from Krsna.

We (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation, the marginal plane or jiva s’akti (jiva tattva) IS/ARE the individual independent living beings like you and I, the marginal energy (tatastha s’akti) , jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti, therefore WE ARE NOT in position or area in creation

The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serve the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires.

Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

Beggar · February 25, 2009

A superficial thinker should never write a book on a deep subject such as this, that's absurd. Sarva gattah, Gauragopal, never explores that if the only understanding is that the jivas are all really nitya-siddha then why does the term nitya-baddha even exist and why does it show up so many times in sastra like Caitanya Caritamrta? The same is true over the issue of whether 'tatastha' is a place or not? As we have rehashed about a thousand times, tatastha literally means the place where the water meets the land at the shore, IOW, the place that can neither be called water or land. While it is completely true that certain concepts put forth in sastra are analogies, one has to at least wonder and and address the idea why the word 'tatastha' is used in the first place. Why did for instance Srila Krsna das Kaviraja and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu use this word at all, only to confuse us? The real reason is to point us in a particular direction. So it is best to hear from suddha bhaktas, pure devotees on all such subjects. If you want to hear from Srila Prabhupada, then it is best to read his books, yet in those books one will find that it is best to hear from the lotus mouth of a saintly devotee. In the proper context all such subjects can be discussed and outside that context, even such discussions become idle chatter which clutter the mind and digress into institutional politics, tantamount to a form of prajalpa. And that is what Garuagopal's book is - a form of prajalpa.

AncientMariner · February 25, 2009

Krsna is so lovable that simply by associating with Him, one falls in love. This is how it all works. Krsna and His name are identical, so associating with Him that way also kindles that love. Remembering Him, the same. Each of the nine processes of devotional service - all the same, falling in love with the Lovable.

When this love ripens and manifests in various levels of deeper and deeper honesty and sincerity and separation, then comes kripa, if Krsna so choses. It is like that saying: don't try to see Krsna, but rather try to make Krsna want to see you.

But make no mistake, no matter how involved and structured the program may seem, it is simply about falling in love, falling in love with the Lovable, Sri Krsna.

That is a good point and well said. I have even read in Srimad Bhagavatam that if you recite the story of Maharaja Bharata in the morning and at night you will have all your material desires satisfied and be liberated when you die. Essentially the same thing with the Sudama brahmana story as well.

Sarva gattah · February 26, 2009

Some silly so called devotees like the nonsense ENVIOUS 'beggar' ( I do enjoy the challenge, the WORLD is pretty boring without ‘arguing the point’ with beggar)(ALSO TO SCARED TO REVEAL HIS REAL NAME) SAY that it is too difficult to understand how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed. Read this over and over, try and understand that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Try to understand. We are given free will to increase our love for Krishna but that also allows us to miss use it if we desire.