Diksa or Death

[theist]

From the Sun

 

 

Diksa or Death

BY: RAY LANTHIER

 

Feb 18, LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA (SUN) —

The havoc wrecked in both ISKCON and the Gaudiya Math in recent historycan actually be traced to a single cause - the obsession with diksainitiation as the only means of perpetuating the disciplic succession.This presumption is an asiddhantic conception that is inspired by themost hallowed of materialistic Western institutions - the corporation.

 

Thegoal of a corporation is to wield financial and collective powerthrough a centralized top-down structure of authority. Thisre-architecting of ISKCON since Srila Prabhupada’s Samadhi has been lednot surprisingly by vaishyas like Gopal Bhatta dasa, who left ISKCON tomake his fortune in the world, along with Braja Bihari, Sesa,Badrinarayana and Pragosh.

 

GopalBhatta dasa has been tasked with driving what has been euphemisticallycalled the Strategic Planning Committee. It is not difficult to see howthe principle of diksa would be perverted to serve such anorganization. The GBC become the board of directors; the gurus, theCEO’s; the Temple Presidents, the middle managers; and everybody else,mere employees. The Diksa Guru initiates the applicant into permanentmembership as a formal employee of Krsna, Inc.

 

Thisdescription is not hyperbole. The fit is too perfect. And what otherreasons would there be for Brahmins and Ksatriyas to take advice fromVaishyas in how to govern their affairs?

 

Diksagurus can proliferate as easily as CEO’s because they are subject tothe corporate authority and their posts created and filled by thatcorporation.

 

Ofcourse, from the point of view of Vaisnava tradition, the subjugationof a guru to such a collective is sheer nonsense. Also the idea thatthere must be formal diksa disciples to continue the succession isincorrect.

 

From Srila Prabhupada:

 

• "BhaktisiddhantaSarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all hisdisciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activitiesco-operatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the nextacarya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries madeplans, without authority, to occupy the post of
  acarya
  , and they split in two factions over who the next
  acarya
  would be. Consequently, both factions were
  asara
  ,or useless, because they had no authority, having disobeyed the orderof the spiritual master. Despite the spiritual master's order to form agoverning body and execute the missionary activities of the GaudiyaMatha, the two un-authorised factions began litigation that is stillgoing on after forty years with no decision."
  
  
  Caitanya Caritamrta
  Adi Lila 12.8 Purport
  
  

 

 

From Rocana dasa prabhu:

 

• "TheSampradaya Acaryas have made their positions on this subject abundantlyclear, but surprisingly, so many devotees have chosen to ignore theirmessage.
  Initiation into our Sampradaya isn’t solely dependent upon taking diksa initiation.
  "
  
  

 

 

Theinsistence on diksa over siksa is the best evidence of the degradationof the spiritual movement that was once ISKCON into a mundane materialreligious institution.

 

As HDG Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja had predicted:

 

• "Theidea of an organized church, in an intelligible form, indeed marks theclose of the living spiritual movement. The great ecclesiasticalestablishments are the dikes and the dams to retain the current thatcannot be held by any such contrivances. They, indeed, indicate adesire on the part of the masses to exploit a spiritual movement fortheir own purpose. They also unmistakably indicate the end of theabsolute and unconventional guidance of the bona fide spiritualteacher. The people of this world understand preventive systems; theyhave no idea at all of the unprevented positive eternal life. Neithercan there be any earthy contrivance for the permanent preservation ofthe life eternal on this mundane plane on the popular scale."
  
  

 

 

[suchandra]

 

 

• Initiation into our Sampradaya isn’t solely dependent upon taking diksa initiation.
  "

 

 

Ex Cathedra, the pope is simultaneously fallible and absolute, this somehow has entered the Vaishnava institutions. Thus there are cases of a guru overwhelmed with sins and not able to transfer them to Krishna because he is not pure. Srila Prabhupada says when a person artificially poses as guru and he is not pure the "guru" accepts the sins and he thus gets sick etc.

 

 

"We believe in the infallibility enjoyed by the Successor of Peter when he speaks ex cathedra as shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, an infallibility which the whole Episcopate also enjoys when it exercises with him the supreme magisterium" (Vol. 2, p.392).

[AncientMariner]

Seems simple enough to me but I am sure Beggar and Kulapavana will be coming after you on this one and belittling you for being an uninitiated peon and even suggest you should not be allowed to even discuss such things because you are such an unqualified peon. How dare you question such things, get back to work, sweep the temple or something, slave. The whole corporate Vaisnava power structure is LAUGHING AT YOU!

[Kulapavana]

IMO it is not a 'preocupation with diksa' that seems to be the problem but the unqualified leadership of these organizations and their prone to abuse management structure.

[Kulapavana]

When the unqualified leaders also give diksa and try to initiate as many personal followers as possible, it is not surprising that Iskcon is a mess. But blaming diksa for this situation is like blaming a gun for the murder.

 

It is ALWAYS PEOPLE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE... not machines, not institutions, not procedures... PEOPLE!

[Kulapavana]

If we only just banned guns, there would be no crime - lament the misguided do-gooders.

 

If we only banned diksa, or if we all be getting diksa from one guru, Srila Prabhupada, there would be no problem - lament some of the misguided Hare Krsna do-gooders.

 

Diksa can and should be separated from the institution, but not abandoned. And the institution must be properly managed by qualified people in accordance with proven principles of responsible and successful management.

[primate]

What are "proven principles of responsible and successful management"?

[Kulapavana]

 

What are "proven principles of responsible and successful management"?

 

Exotic things like competence, honesty, integrity, accountability, and transparency.

[andy108]

 

When the unqualified leaders also give diksa and try to initiate as many personal followers as possible

 

If anyone here believes AC Bhatkivedanta Swami is any kind of authority on matters, he says in the Caitanya Caritamrta

 

 

The initiating spiritual master is a personal manifestation of Śrīla Madana-mohana vigraha, whereas the instructing spiritual master is a personal representative of Śrīla Govindadeva vigraha.

 

 

In a letter to a senior sanyassi disciple named Madhudvisa in 1975 Bhaktivedanta Swami said.

 

 

The GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am in the initiator guru, and you should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing what I am doing. This is not a title, but you must actually come to this platform. This I want.

 

 

 

So Bhaktivedanta Swami, the Founder-Acarya of Iskcon, considered himself qualified to lead and considered himself a personal manifestation of Srila Madana Mohana Vigraha.

 

His management instruction was that the members of his ultimate managerial authority (GBC) were to become instructor gurus (representatives of Srila Govindadeva Vigraha) and they needed to acheive that platform it was not a title given.

 

So how exactly do unqualified leaders give Diksa?

 

What exactly do the "initiate" some one into?

[theist]

 

Seems simple enough to me but I am sure Beggar and Kulapavana will be coming after you on this one and belittling you for being an uninitiated peon and even suggest you should not be allowed to even discuss such things because you are such an unqualified peon. How dare you question such things, get back to work, sweep the temple or something, slave. The whole corporate Vaisnava power structure is LAUGHING AT YOU!

 

 

Ohoh, I better hide.

 

 

I'll just have to let my signature phase speak for me.

 

 

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universalguru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna,he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya13.18 purport

 

 

"If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the universalguru and Lord Jagannatha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna,he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru." - Madhya13.18 purport

[andy108]

 

Diksa can and should be separated from the institution

That is not an original idea of Kulapavana's.

 

The creator of the Iskcon institution did just that. He arranged that for all those conditioned souls entering his Iskcon Institution aspiring for devotional service, HE would transcendentally provide the Diksa initiation, just as he did for the entire time when he was present in his human vapu form on the planet.

 

The transcendental act of giving Diksa Mantra initiation was done through his neophyte disciples who acted as his representatives via ceremony in his absence for many years while AC Bhaktivedanta Swami was still appearing to our mortal vision on this planet. Many of His initiated disciples NEVER EVER met him "in person" aka : in his bodily form.

 

He formalized this system of using priestly representatives in an institution wide edict in 1977 shortly before disappearing from our mortal vision. He declared the system to continue henceforward. He never recinded this order, or countered the instruction by any further act or implication.

 

Thus by his own words he showed He was willing to accept many more disciples he would "never meet" and initiate them transcendentally. It seemed he was confident in the Siksa he left, and those who would take it seriously and pass the Siksa on purely themselves. The same as it ever was.

 

He did this through those APPOINTED to the POSITION of REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ACARYA for the PURPOSE OF PRESIDING OVER THE INITIATION CEREMONY ON BEHALF OF THE ACARYA.

 

And as with any other appointment in a material based institution, a person so honored who fails to meet the terms of their appointment is subject to be unseated from that position forthwith.

 

This act was in no way a Spiritual conference of some Spiritual power upon the individuals so named. Just an appointment filled with conditions.

 

The actual power of any disciple within the institution to be a transcendental conduit for Diksa initiation was paradoxically enabled only by following the conditions of the authorized instructions of that disciple's Spiritual Master.

 

Such disciples may become pure and advanced devotees of Lord Sri Krsna, be rightly considered Spiritual Masters and Siksa Gurus in their own right, but as we know, no-one gets to that point by disobeying orders of their own Acarya. The order was, within Iskcon, the Founder-Acarya remains the Initiating Guru. All else BECOME Instructor (Siksa) Guru.

 

It has been argued that a devotee who becomes qualified as Siksa Guru and Spiritual Master is inherently and implicitly capable and qualified to give Mantra Diksa Initiation on their own.

 

Which is true. But perhaps the Acarya and Krsna had a reason for setting things up as they did. Perhaps the abuse of the formality of Diksa for hundreds of years in India, and the abuse that has occured in the shadow of Iskcon over the last 40 can give us a clue to their wisdom if we cannot accept it at face value. Perhaps it was done as a preaching tool, a safeguard, a gesture of love for the fallen.

 

In any event, an order is an order, and knowing that the real spiritual initiation is not dependent on the Diksa ceremony, perhaps it is time to just follow the orders of those who knew better than us when they found us wallowing in the stool house like hogs and dogs, and not presume to know better than them.

 

Quite simple for the simple.

 

Hare Krsna

[Beggar]

 

Quite simple for the simple.

 

Hare Krsna

 

Yet in a sense, formal diksa is the sampradaya like the shell of a sea animal is also the animal. But even if the animal dies, the shell will be left behind. Similarly real siksa is the real internal life of the sampradaya. So an institution can become like the shell and what's inside may be for all practical purposes, dead. And from the viewpoint of Caitanya Caritamrta, so can a sampradaya, or at least a branch of the sampradayic tree. The example was the son of Sri Advaita Acarya who did not accept the divinity of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur traced this phenomena to the imitationist lines masquerading as representing Mahaprabhu during his era. So has mainstream Iskcon for all intents and purposes also become the latest sahajiya sampradaya? There are many who would say yes. But despite all this if one doesn't want to accept formal diksa then they should really keep that to themselves. For if such a thing is broadcast publicly then they lead others to the non-sampradaya, sampradaya, formal diksa or not. So such things are private matter, not for public consumption otherwise it also becomes an hypocrisy for it would be a total contradiction. And I don't expect most to agree or even understand what I am writing.

[andy108]

 

Yet in a sense, formal diksa is the sampradaya like the shell of a sea animal is also the animal. But even if the animal dies, the shell will be left behind. Similarly real siksa is the real internal life of the sampradaya. So an institution can become like the shell and what's inside may be for all practical purposes, dead. And from the viewpoint of Caitanya Caritamrta, so can a sampradaya, or at least a branch of the sampradayic tree. The example was the son of Sri Advaita Acarya who did not accept the divinity of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur traced this phenomena to the imitationist lines masquerading as representing Mahaprabhu during his era. So has mainstream Iskcon for all intents and purposes also become the latest sahajiya sampradaya? There are many who would say yes. But despite all this if one doesn't want to accept formal diksa then they should really keep that to themselves. For if such a thing is broadcast publicly then they lead others to the non-sampradaya, sampradaya, formal diksa or not. So such things are private matter, not for public consumption otherwise it also becomes an hypocrisy for it would be a total contradiction. And I don't expect most to agree or even understand what I am writing.

 

Maybe because your metaphors are loose and your words seem to be contradictory doublespeak as if only you could actually understand what goes on in your blessed mind?

 

I honestly, for the life of me, have no idea what conclusive point you were trying to make.

 

The part about Mainstream Iskcon becoming a Sahajiya branch of the Gaudiya Madhva Sampradaya is evident to a 3rd grader. The third graders I used to teach would be able to accurately describe their activity as "crazy" and "wierd". My junior high students would know they were a "cult". My high schoolers would tack on the word "personality" to cult.

 

Of course they are still neophyte Vaisnavas and deserve mental respect for their craziness from a distance. But you and I have the spiritual grace to understand that. They don't see anyone as Vaisnavas, actually don't know what one is, and are cut off from grace, unless you consider building indirect Sukrti as counting toward that, but then everyone who hears a joke about "Hare Krsnas" has some sukriti and is thus as spiritually advanced as average Sahajiya Iskcon cult member.

 

Bottom line, where there is NO ACTUAL TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE BEING DISTRIBUTED OR REALIZED, THERE IS NO DIKSA, NO INITIATION INTO THE BEGINNING PROCESS OF SPIRITUAL SADHANA. There is at best a big Sukrti factory amidst the horror and abuse. That is not Diksa.

[Kulapavana]

 

Bottom line, where there is NO ACTUAL TRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE BEING DISTRIBUTED OR REALIZED, THERE IS NO DIKSA, NO INITIATION INTO THE BEGINNING PROCESS OF SPIRITUAL SADHANA. There is at best a big Sukrti factory amidst the horror and abuse. That is not Diksa.

 

Unlike you, I know personally and up close scores of Iskcon diksa-initiated devotees who have plenty of transcendental knowledge, who maintain a very good sadhana, and who perform very nice devotional service every day.

 

You judge by the results. If diksa from Prabhupada was so much more superior that is not showing in his disciples, who are just as prone (if not more) to all kinds of deviations and illicit behavior as those who got diksa from the Iskcon gurus.

[theist]

 

Bottom line, where there is NO ACTUALTRANSCENDENTAL KNOWLEDGE BEING DISTRIBUTED OR REALIZED, THERE IS NODIKSA, NO INITIATION INTO THE BEGINNING PROCESS OF SPIRITUAL SADHANA.There is at best a big Sukrti factory amidst the horror and abuse. That is not Diksa.

 

 

It really is this simple and straightforward. And it was the ignorance of this fact that allowed thousands of people to be bluffed by the cheaters. This goes to the heart of Ray's article.

 

 

Transcendental knowledge is protection. Where there is no such knowledge there is no protection.

[Beggar]

 

 

 

These hardy pioneers travelled almost 2,500 miles to get diksa, their motto was "diksa or death!"

 

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

 

These hardy pioneers travelled almost 2,500 miles to get diksa, their motto was "diksa or death!"

 

 

 

That's funny, I thought their motto was 'diksa or bust'.

[Kulapavana]

Is that a picture of the Donner sankirtana party?

[andy108]

 

Unlike you, I know personally and up close scores of Iskcon diksa-initiated devotees who have plenty of transcendental knowledge, who maintain a very good sadhana, and who perform very nice devotional service every day.

 

You judge by the results. If diksa from Prabhupada was so much more superior that is not showing in his disciples, who are just as prone (if not more) to all kinds of deviations and illicit behavior as those who got diksa from the Iskcon gurus.

 

"plenty of transcendental knowledge"

 

Then their so called Diksa initiation had nothing to do with gaining transcendental knowledge. They were simply able to glean something from reading the changed books, though they won't get the whole picture and won't progress very far under the insufficient guidance of the neophytes who changed the books.

 

The neophytes at North America's largest and most populace temple make a "very nice" altar. Very very nice doesn't even begin to describe the opulent beauty of their artistry in Deity worship.

 

Of course these folks are very rude, condescending, and socially thoughtless in their selfishness. Outside of how they treat the Deities, they are just awful.

 

Very good sadhana. Right. When you are done with your tour of the Colon Highway, take the first exit for reality, and come on up to the surface and see what you've been missing.

[Kulapavana]

 

Very good sadhana. Right. When you are done with your tour of the Colon Highway, take the first exit for reality, and come on up to the surface and see what you've been missing.

 

Of course you, sitting in your closet and blessed with divine vision, know much better about the quailty of their sadhana...

 

And when you say: "Of course these folks are very rude, condescending, and socially thoughtless in their selfishness" I thought you were describing your own ex-hippie generation of devotees, responsible for all the nasty things that happened in our movement. This is the way I remember most of them.

 

Like I said: we judge things (including diksa) by the results.

[andy108]

 

I thought you were describing your own ex-hippie generation of devotees, responsible for all the nasty things that happened in our movement.

Shows how much divine vision you get from spending your days in a Karmi science laboratory.

 

I wasn't even born then.

 

And the closet (a metaphor by the way all seeing one) is a recent phenomenon. I have seen the so called sadhana that is displayed in Iskcon communities, I have lived in more of them than you have, but enough to know. The body is only as good as the head. Those who don't speak out against the corrupt head are doing Sahajiya Cheerleader sadhana, and while it is something to be respected at a distance, it is nothing to laud.

 

P.S. I am sorry if I hurt your feelings before. It is not what I intend.

 

How do I point out the effect of living amongst puffed up Sahajiya Sadhakas who were inconsiderate, rude, condescending, and even worse, without sounding like I am condescending myself?

 

It is frustrating, because they seem to be the only ones who are at LEAST pretending some interest in Krsna and Vaisnava culture, and I am not prepared or qualified to start my own movement. On the other hand, the common Christian is emotionally more mature and agreeable and safe to be around.

 

I guess I just need to learn to live with reality, grin and bear it.

[Kulapavana]

 

I wasn't even born then.

 

Now I understand how easy it is for you to believe in the myths propagated by the old ritviks.

 

If you think the present Iskcon is a sahajiya camp, the old one was more like a boot camp of Muslim fanatics.

[suchandra]

 

Now I understand how easy it is for you to believe in the myths propagated by the old ritviks.

 

If you think the present Iskcon is a sahajiya camp, the old one was more like a boot camp of Muslim fanatics.

Could be that this was the only way how to get it become a global movement.

Remember, although there're people now who really believe that the Babajis of Radhakund were the actual heroes to bring Krishna to the West, this isnt true. It was Prabhupada's method.

[andy108]

 

Now I understand how easy it is for you to believe in the myths propagated by the old ritviks.

 

If you think the present Iskcon is a sahajiya camp, the old one was more like a boot camp of Muslim fanatics.

 

Myths? You are quite a piece of work. There hasn't been one person who has been able to touch me in a debate over initiations since I pieced together the puzzle from Srila Prabhupada's own mouth. As a matter of fact everyone I have ever faced off against has inevitably had to make something up (mythmaking) in order to "defeat" my position.

 

That is Ok, as long as I know the truth, and trust me I don't wish it on Prabhupada's detractors, but they can (and will) go to hell.

 

I can see what you mean about the fanatic boot camp. Except for the reasonable non-fanatics of that day who you lump in to that description, who either left peacably or were forced/marginalized who you fail to mention. You know, the ones who actually respected Srila Prabhupada, who would accept his correction, and made actual improvement in their spiritual lives.

 

Of course once Srila Prabhupada disappeared from mortal vision, any of those reasonable types were wholesale marginalized and forced out for doubting the Jihadists.

 

And once they were fully in charge, the only people who came and stuck around were those vetted by them, who were willing to toe the line and get their meal ticket punched.

 

So in actualit today, there is not a possibility of a freedom loving, truth knowing, truth telling person within the apa-Iskcon borders.

 

Take it Cheap and Easy, don't ask don't tell Sahajiyas every last one.

 

Stands to reason for the reasonable, but then some people would rather ignore the logical sequence and instead enjoy creating myths about modern Iskcon, place of the "very goodvery nice" staunch Sadhana Bhaktas, to support their denial of the facts.

[Beggar]

I really appreciated andy108's last post (#24). Even if you don't agree with his solution(s) you will have to admit that it is an excellent analysis, especially for someone who was born after Srila Prabhupada's manifest lila.