Plain and Simple Rtvik vs. The Ten Thousand Year Reich

[Kulapavana]

 

I just don't understand when Kulapava gets into his heavy handed authoritarian mode in trying to dictate how other people should be intiated especially given the dubious circumstances of his own initiation.

 

You can claim to get initiation from Srlila Vyasadeva if you think that by reading his books you are getting diksa.

 

During initiation a consent of both parties is required by the tradition. What was good for Prabhupada and his godbrothers is good for their disciples as well. No need to invent a new system.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

No need to invent a new system.

 

The colossal failure of the ISKCON guru system says otherwise.

There IS a need to invent a new system in the age where thousands of neophytes want to play guru and produce a class of embittered ex-devotees.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

You can claim to get initiation from Srlila Vyasadeva if you think that by reading his books you are getting diksa.

 

Vyasadeva didn't form a GBC or give diksha by tape recorder.

 

Modern acharyas don't fit into ancient stereotypes.

[mahak]

Im gonna break this post up because of where Im at, but I want to start by stating that Srila Prabhupada never created any laws. When I hear "lawbooks" and other such stuff, I dont think of Krsna or Prabhupada, all I think about is oppressive psuedo religions of domination and just utter garbage, and think of how Krsna tells Arjuna, in the final cut, that this garbage must be completely given up.

 

Srila Prabhupada did NOT give us any laws about disciplic succession. In fact, he only spoke of courtesy and ettiquette in regards to our accepting a guru., He only teaches freedom of choice, the actual LAW of love, meaning only by freely choosing to invest ones love in a guru is there any relationship at all. Otherwise, there is no love, just as the forcing of love upon one in the form of rigid law is called "Rape". This is where ISKCON appointed, elected, certified, etc and the rtvik proponants seem to agree, that there is some sort of regulator in any of this natural calling. TBC mahaksadasa

[mahak]

On another thread, one asked if my guru is god, and I said, simply, YES. All this artificial behavior over the last quarter + century neglects all teachings of Guru tattwa. There is no artifice in guru tattwa whatsoever, only the lawmakers destroy everything by trying to manipulate others and this is because of their own lack of faith and understanding in the teachings of the acaryas and Krsna.

 

There is no other guru than God. He sits as the witness of activities for all sentient beings as the localized Paramatma. When one has even the slightest interest in reality, Lord Nityananda Prabhu, aka Sri Sesa Balarama, Lord Chaitagurudeva approaches and reveals Himself to the aspiring candidate for devotional service. There is no laws involved. Srila Prabhupadas entire western movement was based on this fact, thus the public chanting, Harinama Samkirtana, and the distribution of Prasadam and basic philosophy became the impetus for such slight interest. As the purification process works, advancement is natural, not any kind of legislation. If one loses interest, which is also our tendency being so mired in the muck of Babylon Systems (aka Maya, that which is not, or my fave, phantasmagoria), no law will help, and if one in surrendering to such laws by force or rapist brainwashing, there is no Krsna Consciousness, because there is neglect of Lord Nityananda.

 

However, if the natural advancement continues, and ones interest comes to the point of needing personal assistance, Lord Nityananda appears as the spiritual master, whomever he is pleased to inspire to take on such a mission, without any manipulative law involved. (Imagine what all dem hare krsna fanatics thought of Haridas Thakur in those days when he acted as a guru to one they considered to be a ho, and he wasnt even hindu).

 

No laws ever replace the inspiration and empowerment of a guru enacted by Sri Sesa Balarama. The story of Romaraharsana is a story of the laws of disciplic succession, and some so-called brahmanas were protesting the actions of Lord Balarama who thwarted their bogus disciplic succession laws with his kusa weapon. He placed whom HE SELECTED, INSPIRED, and EMPOWERED upon the vyasasana. He did not tell those at Naimasaranya that Vyasadeva sits there, and only him, for the rest of their thousand year yajna, nor does he accept the election of Romaraharsana.

 

As far as what I may have seemed to read here about one who supports our godbrothers being gurus even though he may have tasted disappointment in his selection, I say good for you. I, too, support anyone who accepts disciples and wish them all the best. If such a guru is only a kanistha adhikari, that is okay as well, because his disciples all have the chance of becoming a third class devotee. Look around, folks, how many third class devotees do you see. There are far and few in between, so I support all such gradual advancement. And I recognize that these folks have become third class devotees (from the depths of animals and raksasas) because they have a little interest, and this interest has invoked guru tattwa, Lord Nityananda is at work leading these candidates fo PURE DEVOTIONAL SERVICE through the gradual process of sadhana bhakti. And there is opportunity for both the kanistha guru and kanistha disciple to, together, clear up a bit to become second class. Thus, if you got a guru who went bad, it is your duty to help him, not curse him. You owe your life to him.

 

hare krsna, not to jesus yall out, but jesus also disclaimed any reference to being a lawgiver, and forbade his disciples from making laws. Laws of disciplic succession are laws made by conditioned souls, and are made to condition souls.

 

ys in cooperation, mahaksadasa

[AncientMariner]

Wow mahaksadasa. That is some beautiful realizations you shared. Enjoyed your posts.

[Sonic Yogi]

Sri Guru and His Grace ch.11

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja

 

 

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.9.31) it is stated:

<center> na hy ekasmad guror jnanam

su-sthiram syat su-puskalam </center> "One certainly cannot get complete knowledge from only one guru." In the highest stage of devotion, we must see not only one guru; we must see that guru is everywhere. In the land of Krsna, all are gurus; our transformation should be towards that. Everything in the spiritual world, the entire environment is our guru and we are servants. To enter into Vaikuntha, or Goloka, means that on all sides we must see guru and pay our respects.

 

In Goloka they don't think that there is only one guru.

[suchandra]

 

 

Btw... I never felt that I was in any way disadvantaged by the turn of events. I have learned A LOT from that experience.

You might say this again and again, at least I don't believe what you're saying. You should at least show loyalty to all those not only ex-Harikes disciples but also others like Harikes' godbrothers who went through unbelievable damage, not only spiritually but also materially. A damage which can be numbered of at least 500 mio dollars to get it all repaired.

To say now like you do, this is in no way anything mentionable, it is all a short laugh, to say this now to all the other victims, this is sheer rascaldom and makes you to the very same cheater like Harikes was.

It is just unbelievable what is going on in the heads of so called Vaishnavas.

For example some devotees became drug addicts or their kids became drug addicts, some commited suicide, many are dead and gone from grief at being removed from their service, there is no way to fully fix this mess at this stage, so these "guru's" karma is somewhat bigger than Mount Sumeru. In fact any karmi butcher is a saint compared to this crime.

[Kulapavana]

 

You should at least show loyalty to all those not only ex-Harikes disciples but also others like Harikes' godbrothers who went through unbelievable damage, not only spiritually but also materially.

 

I am not in any way minimizing his responsibility for the mess he created and the real damage he has done. One of my Godbrothers comitted a suicide that can be directly linked to his falldown.

 

However, I do not feel like he damaged me personally in any way, even as it was a very, very painful experience. I never believed in the guru fairytales as told in Iskcon or in any other fanatical and un-shastric sentimentalities sold to the new devotees about the purity and superiority of our leaders and movement in general. I knew for many years that sannyasa was a bad choice for Harikesh, just like it was a bad choice for just about everybody else. And I have seen plenty of Iskcon leaders fall down. What surprised me was how badly he fell, diving deep into real insanity.

 

The despair of the devotees, the smashed lives, the suffering, were not just the results of one guru falling down. A good part of our movement was built on lies and half-truths, we promoted fanaticism and blind obedience to the gurus and leaders, overselling the benefits and refusing to talk about the risks. To some extent this system continues without much change today.

 

Those who promote the ritvik reich are trying to replace a badly structured system with one that is potentially even worse, because it institutionalizes personality cult and deviations from the sampradaya practices, demanding even more fanaticism and blind obedience.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

A good part of our movement was built on lies and half-truths,

 

Care to describe what those lies and half-truths were?

 

By the way it is not "our movement" or your movement or my movement it is the movement of Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

[Kulapavana]

 

There IS a need to invent a new system in the age where thousands of neophytes want to play guru and produce a class of embittered ex-devotees.

 

Where do you see these thousands of guru wannabes? I see extremely few of them among the devotees from my generation. Granted, there are more of them among Prabhupada's disciples, as there should be, but there are not thousands of them, and they are not neophytes. Keep your pants on, yogibear...

 

When you tell the newcomers that a 'real guru' can walk on water you are definitely setting them up for a disappointment. It is much safer to say that Prabhupada was able to walk on water because he is not around to prove you wrong. Lets make up an inspiring legend and feed it to the masses - it worked great for the Christians, did it not?

 

What embitters people are the lies that were sold to them in their youth, when they were idealistic and gullible. Sooner or later these lies become exposed and people feel cheated. That is why people leave.

 

Tell people the truth: the majority of Gaudiya gurus were simply advanced and experienced devotees. Now and then there were extraordinary personalities, true Acharyas, super-gurus like Srila Prabhupada, but that was always rare.

[ranjeetmore]

Guru should know Krsna.He should have PREMA.Hence,He should've touched,Smelt,Seen,Heard Sri Krsna and His Features.This is called Bhagavat praapti.This hppens after the Swarupa Shakti of Sri Krsna enters the heart.

This Swarupa Shakti comes only with the grace of real guru.

 

After SP,It all went up in the air.Finished.

 

 

 

Everything else like pure/advanced devotee is a farce.

 

There is prema bhakta like SP,the 6 Gosvamis,etc. and then there is the non-realised bhakta.

 

Now putting the non-realised bhakta on the vyasapeetha and then considering him as non-different from Sri Krsna is pure disaster and a way to hell.

[andy108]

 

During initiation a consent of both parties is required by the tradition. What was good for Prabhupada and his godbrothers is good for their disciples as well. No need to invent a new system.

 

There was no new system invented. This is your mistake.

 

The consent was there.

 

It is a known fact, even to Kula "of selective memory" Pavana, that Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada accepted hundreds of disciples who he never met in person.

 

He impliles that Swamiji broke tradition by not being present at the initiation ceremony in order to formally trade verbal consent. That by breaking this tradition, there is no disciplic succession.

 

Swamiji consented by authorizing his disciples to initiate people ON HIS BEHALF, who he never met, and never would meet. He gave his proxys certain criteria to judge whether a person was worthy of initiation and left it in their hands. This was his consent. The new people were informed of the situation, that they would be His Disciples, but need to take daily instruction from the Swamiji's local disciples who were representing him.

 

But not good enough for Kula's version of tradition. Bad Swamiji.

 

Here is the truth about Laws in a nutshell.

 

Laws are statements describing consequences of causal actions.

 

Breaking a law means that one intentionally or innocently has acted in a way that set consequences into motion that WILL OCCUR.

 

A person QUALIFIED to give Diksa can give Diksa, and Siksa, to anyone at anytime, and the result of that action is the transmission of transcendental knowledge. That is the Law.

 

Ettiquette is a standard of behavior based upon respect and recognition of the value of social order.

 

A person who breaks ettiquette did not actually understand the value of social order, nor respect the situation, and thus breaks ettiquette.

 

The consequences of such action is that he shows his true colors to those who do value and respect the situation, and is recognized for where he is at. That is the Law of ettiquette.

 

The Law of Disciplic Succession is that a person who is qualified and initiates someone into transcendental knowledge and guides them to some degree to benefit from that knowledge, has succeeded in passing on some transcendental discipline to another.

 

Bhaktivedanta Swami was qualified to give Diksa and Siksa. He decided he would be most successful in disciplining more new people by allowing the formal ceremony to be done in his absence, and authorizing his senior disciples to perform the formalities and to give further instructions to the new people according to Srila Prabhupada's dictates.

 

SP gave them everything, and let them stand or fall on their own merits according to their willingness to follow or not. While he was in body on this planet. This is what he authorized.

 

Anyone who considers himself a direct disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami must realize that the only qualification for passing on transcendental knowledge is that they follow their Guru's instructions and orders.

 

The LAW is, if you break Guru's orders, you lose spiritual connection and thus qualification.

 

Bhaktivedanta Swami's orders to his disciples are to FORMALLY accept disciples on His behalf, yet to ESSENTIALLY be their guide and mentor (Siksa Guru), instructing them according to the teachings they imbibed from Bhaktivedanta Swami.

 

These Siksa Gurus are authorized to tell the new person, "You are Srila Prabhupada's disciple, you must do whatever I instruct you to, but it is YOUR DUTY to check this against Srila Prabhupada's instructions, his other saintly disciples (sadhus), and his books (Sastra), in order that we are on the same page."

 

By doing so, the neophyte always has a standard to hold their Siksa Guru to. That of their Diksa Guru and Parama Guru, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

The Siksa Guru has no authorization to change the sadhana from the parameters set forth by Srila Prabhupada, claiming YOU ARE MY DISCIPLE NOW, THINGS HAVE CHANGED, DO IT MY WAY. This disqualifies them from representing Bhaktivedanta Swami. And Sridhara Maharaja for that matter.

 

Doing so IS BREAKING THE LAW OF DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION, and there is no success in passing along spiritual knowledge when one is not qualified.

 

Unless they want to strike off on their own, and cease to claim representation of Srila Prabhupada and his Iskcon. Then they may try their best, and may Krsna have mercy on them.

[bhaktajan]

 

On another thread, one asked if my guru is god, and I said, simply, YES. All this artificial behavior over the last quarter + century neglects all teachings of Guru tattwa. There is no artifice in guru tattwa whatsoever, only the lawmakers destroy everything by trying to manipulate others and this is because of their own lack of faith and understanding in the teachings of the acaryas and Krsna.

 

There is no other guru than God. He sits as the witness of activities for all sentient beings as the localized Paramatma. When one has even the slightest interest in reality, Lord Nityananda Prabhu, aka Sri Sesa Balarama, Lord Chaitagurudeva approaches and reveals Himself to the aspiring candidate for devotional service. There is no laws involved. Srila Prabhupadas entire western movement was based on this fact, thus the public chanting, Harinama Samkirtana, and the distribution of Prasadam and basic philosophy became the impetus for such slight interest. As the purification process works, advancement is natural, not any kind of legislation. If one loses interest, which is also our tendency being so mired in the muck of Babylon Systems (aka Maya, that which is not, or my fave, phantasmagoria), no law will help, and if one in surrendering to such laws by force or rapist brainwashing, there is no Krsna Consciousness, because there is neglect of Lord Nityananda.

 

However, if the natural advancement continues, and ones interest comes to the point of needing personal assistance, Lord Nityananda appears as the spiritual master, whomever he is pleased to inspire to take on such a mission, without any manipulative law involved. (Imagine what all dem hare krsna fanatics thought of Haridas Thakur in those days when he acted as a guru to one they considered to be a ho, and he wasnt even hindu).

 

No laws ever replace the inspiration and empowerment of a guru enacted by Sri Sesa Balarama. The story of Romaraharsana is a story of the laws of disciplic succession, and some so-called brahmanas were protesting the actions of Lord Balarama who thwarted their bogus disciplic succession laws with his kusa weapon. He placed whom HE SELECTED, INSPIRED, and EMPOWERED upon the vyasasana. He did not tell those at Naimasaranya that Vyasadeva sits there, and only him, for the rest of their thousand year yajna, nor does he accept the election of Romaraharsana.

 

As far as what I may have seemed to read here about one who supports our godbrothers being gurus even though he may have tasted disappointment in his selection, I say good for you. I, too, support anyone who accepts disciples and wish them all the best. If such a guru is only a kanistha adhikari, that is okay as well, because his disciples all have the chance of becoming a third class devotee. Look around, folks, how many third class devotees do you see. There are far and few in between, so I support all such gradual advancement. And I recognize that these folks have become third class devotees (from the depths of animals and raksasas) because they have a little interest, and this interest has invoked guru tattwa, Lord Nityananda is at work leading these candidates fo PURE DEVOTIONAL SERVICE through the gradual process of sadhana bhakti. And there is opportunity for both the kanistha guru and kanistha disciple to, together, clear up a bit to become second class. Thus, if you got a guru who went bad, it is your duty to help him, not curse him. You owe your life to him.

 

hare krsna, not to jesus yall out, but jesus also disclaimed any reference to being a lawgiver, and forbade his disciples from making laws. Laws of disciplic succession are laws made by conditioned souls, and are made to condition souls.

 

ys in cooperation, mahaksadasa

 

Perfectly delineated! Wonderful monogram! Bravo! Bravo! Bravo!

 

Beyond ordinarie mortal intellectual descrimination!

[bhaktajan]

Hey Dudes & Dudettes [cowboys & cowgirls],

 

[inresponse to Sonic Yogi, who Originally Posted, "There IS a need to invent a new system in the age where thousands of neophytes want to play guru and produce a class of embittered ex-devotees."]:

 

Why is Kula HAVING TO SAY things like this?

 

"...Where do you see these thousands of guru wannabes? I see extremely few of them among the devotees from my generation. ..."

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

Somebody(s) are running amok with dirty laundry in our faces [via these latest string of posts] as if Iskcon hasn't been "weeding out" all sorts of undesirable bad-actors.

 

Austere life is for austere people.

 

............................................................................................

Also, are the rtvik people famous for "Guru-worship"? --No, correct?

Rtvik are not famous for "Guru-worship"

 

Are Iskcon members famous for "Guru-worship"? [offering praise in-memorium,etc does not equate to Guru-worship --just as visiting Elvis Presly's estate does not equate to "worship"] --No, never have been and never will.

 

Any one or anything that a person deems as good as God --it is their personal business --and not some ritual-mass-worship-orgy, ala, cult-personality-zombees.

 

I have never heard nor been told that a "Devotee" considers "Maharaja So and so" to be God incarnate. Rather, it was commonplace to be reminded that spiritual dedication and stern adherence to Bhakti-yoga till each individuals' time of departure would benefit ones own relatives. [Good Putra.]

 

Also, that a Guru became obliged to 'boddhisattva-ize' his determination to NOT LEAVE his stewarded wards in the mire without making all efforts to retreive them --am I writting too abstractly?

 

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

We are, at best, stewards of our lot in life --that is what a Guru 'reminds' us to become, "Good Shepards".

 

Good Guru(s) = Good students.

 

Bad Guru(s) = ongoing student-ship, to be continued . . .

[Kyros]

 

The Glories of Advaita Acharya by Isana Nagara

 

"One day Sri Madhavendra Puripada appeared to mother Sri Sita in a dream and told her with sweet words 'Listen, O Sita devi! My name is Madhavendra. Sri Advaita Candra took mantra from me. I will now give you the same siddha mantra that I have given to your husband and that attracts Krsna. Krsna does not eat grains offered to Him by an uninitiated person, and it is a great offence to act in a wayward manner.'

 

"Sita-devi said: 'I am very fortunate that I met you. Please purify my heart and body with mantra initiation.' Then Madhavendra Puripada gave Krsna-mantra initiation to Sita, after which he vanished.

 

"When Mother Sita awoke, she said: 'How amazing! Madhavendra Puripada gave me mantra diksa in a visionary dream!' Sita devi told everything to Advaita Acarya, who said: 'You are very fortunate. All your bonds have been severed.'

 

"Still, despite Sita's vision, He gave her initiation again, according to the rules, on an auspicious moment."

 

Haridasa Dasa of Haribol kutir, Navadvipa, in his Gaudiya Vaisnava Jivani:

 

"During Rampratap's stay in the cave, Balwant Rao, the elder brother of Madhava Rao, the King of Gwalior, once came and expressed his loyalty to him. It was arranged that Balwant would take spiritual initiation from Krsnacaitanya dasa. But when Krsnacaitanya suddenly died, Balwant was initiated by Kesavdeva of Gopinathabag."