Sarva gattah Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 The body leaves the soul, vacates due to its decay and ill health So why do we say ‘oh, he or she has left their body?’ What really happens is the embodied soul encaged in an ethereal vessel or body is actually experiencing the biological body breaking down and ceasing to work, in other words. The material body leaves the soul. The soul does not move at all its immovable, that’s how I saw it. On Saturday I had a heart attack and had no heart beat for five minutes Just a realization Hare Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.151 brahmāṇḍa bhramite kona bhāgyavān jīva guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja SYNONYMS brahmāṇḍa bhramite — wandering in this universe; kona — some; bhāgyavān — most fortunate; jīva — living being; guru — of the spiritual master; kṛṣṇa — of Kṛṣṇa; prasāde — by the mercy; pāya — gets; bhakti-latā — of the creeper of devotional service; bīja — the seed. TRANSLATION "According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service. From this we can see that the soul is moving around all over the universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 While Krsna was within the mouth of Aghasura, the demon's spirit soul came out like a dazzling light, illuminating all directions, and waited in the sky. As soon as Krsna with His calves and friends came out of the mouth of the demon, that glittering effulgent light immediately merged into the body of Krsna within the vision of all the demigods. Krsna Book, Chapter 12 According to this description the soul does move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 The material body leaves the embodied soul like the nitya-baddha sub-conscious dream state is projected from ones authentic nitya-siddha svarupa body and comes to the material world TEXT 24 acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam akledyo 'sosya eva ca nityah sarva-gatah sthanur acalo 'yam sanatanah SYNONYMS acchedyah—unbreakable; ayam—this soul; adahyah—cannot be burned; ayam—this soul; akledyah—insoluble; asosyah—cannot be dried; eva—certainly; ca—and; nityah—everlasting; sarva-gatah—all-pervading; sthanuh—unchangeable; acalah—immovable; ayam—this soul; sanatanah—eternally the same. TRANSLATION This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same. PURPORT All these qualifications of the atomic soul definitely prove that the individual soul is eternally the atomic particle of the spirit whole, and he remains the same atom eternally, without change. The theory of monism is very difficult to apply in this case, because the individual soul is never expected to become one homogeneously. After liberation from material contamination, the atomic soul may prefer to remain as a spiritual spark in the effulgent rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the intelligent souls enter into the spiritual planets to associate with the Personality of Godhead. The word sarva-gatah (all-pervading) is significant because there is no doubt that living entities are all over God's creation. They live on the land, in the water, in the air, within the earth and even within fire. The belief that they are sterilized in fire is not acceptable, because it is clearly stated here that the soul cannot be burned by fire. Therefore, there is no doubt that there are living entities also in the sun planet with suitable bodies to live there. If the sun globe is uninhabited, then the word sarva-gatah--living everywhere--becomes meaningless. TRANSLATION text 25 It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable, immutable, and unchangeable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body. PURPORT As described previously, the magnitude of the soul is so small for our material calculation that he cannot be seen even by the most powerful microscope; therefore, he is invisible. As far as the soul's existence is concerned, no one can establish his existence experimentally beyond the proof of sruti, or Vedic wisdom. We have to accept this truth, because there is no other source of understanding the existence of the soul, although it is a fact by perception. There are many things we have to accept solely on grounds of superior authority. No one can deny the existence of his father, based upon the authority of his mother. There is no other source of understanding the identity of the father except by the authority of the mother. Similarly, there is no other source of understanding the soul except by studying the Vedas. In other words, the soul is inconceivable by human experimental knowledge. The soul is consciousness and conscious--that also is the statement of the Vedas, and we have to accept that. Unlike the bodily changes, there is no change in the soul. As eternally unchangeable, the soul remains atomic in comparison to the infinite Supreme Soul. The Supreme Soul is infinite, and the atomic soul is infinitesimal. Therefore, the infinitesimal soul, being unchangeable, can never become equal to the infinite soul, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This concept is repeated in the Vedas in different ways just to confirm the stability of the conception of the soul. Repetition of something is necessary in order that we understand the matter thoroughly, without error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sarva, we need to hear from pure devotees. You personally heard from Srila Prabhupada, you have that memory, smaranam. The goal is Krsna prema, love of God, which can manifest as bhava on this plane. That is found is his mood of love and affection, not in the details and more details and more and more details of the philosophy. There really is no need to know so much, otherwise we become logicians like the followers of Sankaracarya. bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate samprāpte sannihite kāle marane na hi na hi rakṣati ḍukṛñ-karaṇe Generally when Srila Prabhupada quoted this verse he used it to establish personalism over impersonalism but the application can be universal. Srila Prabhupada: Three times means he is giving stress. Bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ bhaja govindaṁ mūḍha-mate: three times. Prāpte sannihite kāle marane: "When your death will be near, at the point of your death," na hi na hi rakṣati ḍukṛñ-karaṇe. Ḍukṛñ-karaṇe means a grammatical jugglery, that "This word should be interpreted like this. This word should be interpreted like this." So, "This fight of interpretation will not save you. Better from the very beginning you worship Govinda. That will save you." Town Hall Lecture -- Auckland, April 14, 1972 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same. This can be seen from different views, thr baddha-jiva in the material world is a real but inferior representation of the nitya-siddha The nitya baddha appears to move around however, its source is its nitya siddha origins in Vaikuntha that is permanantly there due to the eternal present time factor. It may appear contradictory but it isn;t, tha material body does leave the embodied (ethereal vessel) baddha-jiva-soul and the embodied baddha-jiva-soul leaves the material body From the material world point of view we leave our material bodies On the absolute level we are always in Vaikuntha even if we think or dream we are in the mahat-tattva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sarva, You think that you are listening to Srila Prabhupada, but mostly you are just hearing your own thoughts bounce off the inner part of your skull. This is why siksa guru is so necessary. Srila Prabhupada's disciples were in an extremely immature stage when he finished his manifest lila. Paranoia and immaturity can be a bad mix, then on top of it the Zonal Acarya scam that was like a nuclear explosion on the Iskcon institution and then the GBC's failed reform. If the Western economies completely collapse, the disappointed people will not come to the Iskcon farms (what farms?) out of fear from "Monkey on a Stick". Besides will Krsna want them to come and hear some psychobabble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 The body leaves the soul, vacates due to its decay and ill health So why do we say ‘oh, he or she has left their body?’ What really happens is the embodied soul encaged in an ethereal vessel or body is actually experiencing the biological body breaking down and ceasing to work, in other words. The material body leaves the soul. The soul does not move at all its immovable, that’s how I saw it. On Saturday I had a heart attack and had no heart beat for five minutes Just a realization Hare Krsna. I hope you are alright after that heart attack.. Do you think one could say that if one dies the material illusion simply 'disappears' and is no longer consciously experienced (like waking up from a dream), while all the rest stays the same? Did you consciously experience something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sarva gattah, Read the books of Srila Prabhupada. Start with Bhagavad-gita. In the introduction you will find: All of the miseries we experience in the material world arise from the body, but one who leaves this body thinking of Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, at once attains a sac-cid-ānanda body. The soul leaves the body. The body doesn't leave the soul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Sarva gattah, Read the books of Srila Prabhupada. Start with Bhagavad-gita. In the introduction you will find: Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>All of the miseries we experience in the material world arise from the body, but one who leaves this body thinking of Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, at once attains a sac-cid-ānanda body. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> The soul leaves the body. The body doesn't leave the soul. Your quote states: 'one who leaves this body'. It doesn’t state: 'the soul that leaves this body'. So who is one? Apart from this, the whole matter is of course relative. Logically, the soul leaving the body seems to be equivalent to the body leaving the soul.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted February 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same. This can be seen from different views, thr baddha-jiva in the material world is a real but inferior representation of the nitya-siddha The nitya baddha appears to move around however, its source is its nitya siddha origins in Vaikuntha that is permanantly there due to the eternal present time factor. It may appear contradictory but it isn;t, the material body does leave the embodied (ethereal vessel) baddha-jiva-soul and the embodied baddha-jiva-soul leaves the material body From the material world point of view the embodied soul leave our variety material bodies On the absolute level we are always in Vaikuntha even if we think or dream we are in the mahat-tattva Do you think one could say that if one dies the material illusion simply 'disappears' and is no longer consciously experienced (like waking up from a dream), while all the rest stays the same? Did you consciously experience something like that? Depends on thinking of Krishna but believe me, when the body is breaking up so many thoughts go through your mind, I realized that for me I'm very fallen and sinful and even though I realized that when this material body breaks down and leaves the soul, or as you have said, when I leave this broken body, for me, the mundane dream will continue - but I SEE it as another chance to somehow. someway remember Prabhupada and Krishna - if we can do that, then it will appear to us that the material experience or dream really never happened because we have gone back home, back to Godhead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Your quote states: 'one who leaves this body'. It doesn’t state: 'the soul that leaves this body'. So who is one? Apart from this, the whole matter is of course relative. Logically, the soul leaving the body seems to be equivalent to the body leaving the soul.. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.10 utkrāmantaḿ sthitaḿ vāpi bhuñjānaḿ vā guṇānvitam vimūḍhā nānupaśyanti paśyanti jñāna-cakṣuṣaḥ SYNONYMS utkrāmantam — quitting the body; sthitam — situated in the body; vā api — either; bhuñjānam — enjoying; vā — or; guṇa-anvitam — under the spell of the modes of material nature; vimūḍhāḥ — foolish persons; na — never; anupaśyanti — can see; paśyanti — can see; jñāna-cakṣuṣaḥ — those who have the eyes of knowledge. TRANSLATION The foolish cannot understand how a living entity can quit his body, nor can they understand what sort of body he enjoys under the spell of the modes of nature. But one whose eyes are trained in knowledge can see all this. PURPORT The word jñāna-cakṣuṣaḥ is very significant. Without knowledge, one cannot understand how a living entity leaves his present body, nor what form of body he is going to take in the next life, nor even why he is living in a particular type of body. This requires a great amount of knowledge understood from Bhagavad-gītā and similar literatures heard from a bona fide spiritual master. One who is trained to perceive all these things is fortunate. Every living entity is quitting his body under certain circumstances, he is living under certain circumstances, and he is enjoying under certain circumstances under the spell of material nature. As a result, he is suffering different kinds of happiness and distress, under the illusion of sense enjoyment. Persons who are everlastingly fooled by lust and desire lose all power to understand their change of body and their stay in a particular body. They cannot comprehend it. Those who have developed spiritual knowledge, however, can see that the spirit is different from the body and is changing its body and enjoying in different ways. A person in such knowledge can understand how the conditioned living entity is suffering in this material existence. Therefore those who are highly developed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness try their best to give this knowledge to the people in general, for their conditional life is very much troublesome. They should come out of it and be Kṛṣṇa conscious and liberate themselves to transfer to the spiritual world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Yes, I remember, Sarva gattah. When my body dropped away and ahankara left, only I remained. Yet somehow they came back, to my embarrassment. First came all the desires, then that Gary guy I somehow remembered from long long ago, attaching to me like a leech, distracting me, draining me of bliss and satisfaction. But it was me, again, and the burden of mortal life and my heart's obstinacy. Maybe ahankara will leave you forever. Give it no reason to return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindustani Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Sarva gattah, We use one word for death in English called Passed away. This means in this material world Soul entered in a body=birth,lived his/her life and then pass away for another journey or to rest near the footstep of God. Sorry to hear about your health,I wish speedy recovery for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted February 27, 2009 Report Share Posted February 27, 2009 Bhagavad-Gita, according to Hare-Krishna.org: BG 3.27 prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate "The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of ahankara thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature." The soul is actually inactive in the material sphere of existence. That is why he is described in the Gita as 'acalah'. He is a non-mover. Why? Because he is spiritual in nature, he is not a product of the material energy. The soul does not occupy or possess material space (akasha), thus he cannot move. Movement is shifting from one point in space to another. The soul is not situated within material space, and thus cannot move to another space. Without movement, there is no question of being the doer of action. Therefore the idea that the soul is the 'karta' (or 'I am the cause', aham-kara) is absolutely false. Thus ahankara is a false identification or a false ego. ... BG 7.4 bhumir apo ’nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca ahankara itiyam me bhinna prakrtir astadha "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and ahankara - all together these eight constitute My separated material energies." Ahankara is not just a conception, but a factual subtle element that pollutes the original consciousness of the soul, just as dirt pollutes water. As water may be filtered to return it to its original pure state, so in the same manner the consciousness may be cleansed by the process of sadhana: ceto darpana marjanam. We must cleanse the mirror of the consciousness from the accumulated dust of countless lives. When the ahankara - or false identification is removed - the true conception of self remains. This is atma-vidya, or knowledge of the self. ... http://www.hare-krishna.org/articles/221/1/What-is-Ahankara/Page1.html According to this, the soul cannot leave the body, because the soul is not a spacial and material entity (although it has spacial and material awareness).. Thus, the body leaves the soul.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 My Dad died in bed at home. At death, his body didn't go anywhere. It stayed right there in bed. The soul left and went wherever the Supersoul sent it. If the body leaves the soul, then my Dad's body would have left the bed and his soul would have still been there attached to his oxygen bottle From a material perspective the soul leaves the body. From a spiritual perspective the body leaves the soul. If someone dies, we see things from a material perspective. When we ourselves die, we might see things from a spiritual perspective. Logically, both perspectives seem to be equivalent and they may both be valid. The ignorance comes from the material realization that, apart from the fact that someone died, the whole material world remains unchanged. Thus it seems the spirit soul leaves the body and not vice versa. However, since everything is One, and since the spiritual world is 3 times larger than the material world, it might ultimately be more accurate to say that the body leaves the soul.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Yes, I remember, Sarva gattah. When my body dropped away and ahankara left, only I remained. Yet somehow they came back, to my embarrassment. First came all the desires, then that Gary guy I somehow remembered from long long ago, attaching to me like a leech, distracting me, draining me of bliss and satisfaction. But it was me, again, and the burden of mortal life and my heart's obstinacy. Maybe ahankara will leave you forever. Give it no reason to return. Primate - "From a material perspective the soul leaves the body. From a spiritual perspective the body leaves the soul. If someone dies, we see things from a material perspective. When we ourselves die, we might see things from a spiritual perspective. Logically, both perspectives seem to be equivalent and they may both be valid. The ignorance comes from the material realization that, apart from the fact that someone died, the whole material world remains unchanged. Thus it seems the spirit soul leaves the body and not vice versa. However, since everything is One, and since the spiritual world is 3 times larger than the material world, it might ultimately be more accurate to say that the body leaves the soul.. " Both interesting points Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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