New booklet about Srila Prabhupada

[Sukhada]

I think that the real reason why some feel the need to see Srila Prabhupada as having a veiled madhurya sentiment in the face of so many indications of sakhya-rasa is because of the heavy preaching that has gone on for the last fifteen or so years that says that Srila Prabhupada has to be in madhurya-rasa, that our sampradaya is only for madhurya-rasa. This position is one that is not held by Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, or Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, as the following quotations substantiate:

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura: "If the disciple is not attracted to srngara-rasa, the disciple may be suited for dasya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. Then the spiritual master will explain the disciple's identity in terms of one of those rasas. These rasas are not bad or unworthy. "

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur: "The pathetic condition of a person who tries to consider the superiority and inferiority of the rasas without understanding the difference between matter and spirit is the same as the pathetic condition of a person who tries to learn geometry without understanding the difference between an axiom and a postulate. "

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: "Sakhya-rasa is a very small thing? What is this? From a distance I want to show my respect to sakhya-rasa. That should be the tendency of a real devotee, and not to disregard all these things."

 

Hrsikesanada dasa: So that means that my relationship with you is eternal, that it will continue in nitya-lila?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

hd: As manjaris?

acbsp: Down to sakhya.

hd: But for Rupanugas isn’t it always manjari-rasa?

acbsp: That is the highest; but in the spiritual world there is no such distinction.

 

Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja: “If your guru is situated in sakhya-rasa, you don't have a problem. But if anyone thinks they have a problem because their guru is in sakhya-rasa rather than madhurya-rasa, then they have a problem!”

[Sukhada]

 

What about the possibility that as a cowherd boy in Goloka, he could appreciate from a distance, the mood and sentiments of those more directly and initmately involved in Madhurya seva arrangements. The first glimmers of appreciation for a richer deeper mood.

 

Then on Earth he is exposed to the large variety of confidential descriptions and confessions of the Gopis, sakhis, manjaris, in their writings, keeps their personal company(His Guru), sings their songs, and begins to be highly influenced and desirous of developing that mood, and by virtue he actually IS developing that mood, while engaged in his Iskcon preaching seva.

This is speculation of the worst sort, absolutely not in concert with guru, sadhu, and sastra.

[Narasingh]

 

I think that the real reason why some feel the need to see Srila Prabhupada as having a veiled madhurya sentiment in the face of so many indications of sakhya-rasa is because of the heavy preaching that has gone on for the last fifteen or so years that says that Srila Prabhupada has to be in madhurya-rasa, that our sampradaya is only for madhurya-rasa. This position is one that is not held by Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, or Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, as the following quotations substantiate:

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura: "If the disciple is not attracted to srngara-rasa, the disciple may be suited for dasya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. Then the spiritual master will explain the disciple's identity in terms of one of those rasas. These rasas are not bad or unworthy. "

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur: "The pathetic condition of a person who tries to consider the superiority and inferiority of the rasas without understanding the difference between matter and spirit is the same as the pathetic condition of a person who tries to learn geometry without understanding the difference between an axiom and a postulate. "

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: "Sakhya-rasa is a very small thing? What is this? From a distance I want to show my respect to sakhya-rasa. That should be the tendency of a real devotee, and not to disregard all these things."

 

Hrsikesanada dasa: So that means that my relationship with you is eternal, that it will continue in nitya-lila?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

hd: As manjaris?

acbsp: Down to sakhya.

hd: But for Rupanugas isn’t it always manjari-rasa?

acbsp: That is the highest; but in the spiritual world there is no such distinction.

 

Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja: “If your guru is situated in sakhya-rasa, you don't have a problem. But if anyone thinks they have a problem because their guru is in sakhya-rasa rather than madhurya-rasa, then they have a problem!”

 

Nice

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I think that the real reason why some feel the need to see Srila Prabhupada as having a veiled madhurya sentiment

I don't think any of them have a "need" to feel that Srila Prabhupada veiled his rasa with Krsna.

 

We didn't extort that conclusion out of Sridhar Maharaja.

That was his conclusion he arrived at upon deep contemplation of prior statements and for ANYONE to just write if off as inconsequential is just missing the whole point behind why Sridhar Maharaja made the statement.

 

To use Sridhar Maharaja as the proof of Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa is in fact a deception, because in reality Sridhar Maharaja left the door open for alternative possibilities.

 

It seems that you have a need to prove that someone else has a need to establish Srila Prabhupada in any particular rasa, when in fact an unbiased observer taking in all the statements of Sridhar Maharaja would have to avoid coming to any concrete conclusions unless he just wants to ignore the total body of his statements on the matter and pick and choose the one that suits his need to prove something one way or the other.

 

 

I don't have a NEED to cater to any camp or Matha.

I have a need to look at ALL the evidence and make MY OWN judgement.

[Sukhada]

 

Maybe some guys do that, but can you show any shastric reference of a cowherd boy aside from Balaram referring to Krsna as "brother".

 

You argument in support of your opinion is very weak on this matter unless you can show some proof from authentic shastra that Subal or Madhumangal etc. ever referred to Krishna as brother.

 

Unless you can, your position is not very strong on this point.

 

Whazup bra?

The evidence is later in the same poem!

 

tomara milane bhai abar se sukha pai

gocarane ghuri din bhor

kata bane chutachuti bane khai lutaputi

sei din kabe habe mor

 

O dear friend, in Your company I will experience great joy once again. In the early morning I will wander about the cowherd pastures and fields. Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja, I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy. Oh when will that day be mine?

 

Otherwise, here is another reference from a Gaudiya Vaisnava bhajana. I don't have them here, but in the Gaudiya lila-granthas there are also many such references.

 

Ore Vrndavaner Nanda Dulala

 

 

sridama sudam bhai balaram

dakche ai kanai

chorai dhenu bajai venu

ai re o bhai ai

 

sridam sudam—Sridama and Sudama; bhai balaram—Your brother Balarama; dakche—are calling; ai kanai—come, Kanai!; chorai dhenu—tending the calves; bajai venu—playing on their flutes; ai—please come; re—Oh!; o bhai—O brother!; ai—please come home!

 

"Sridama, Sudama, and Your brother Balarama are calling, "O Kanai! Please come back!" While tending the calves and playing on their flutes they entreat, "O brother! Please come home!"

 

But I think it is important to point out that what you are saying is, "Sridhara Maharaja, although Bengali is your native tongue and you are a highly realized Gaudiya Vaisnava and dear friend of Srila Prabhupada, I have some doubts about how you have translated the word bhai in Prabhupada's song, even though I don’t speak Bengali and have very little realization.”

[Sukhada]

 

I don't think any of them have a "need" to feel that Srila Prabhupada veiled his rasa with Krsna.

 

We didn't extort that conclusion out of Sridhar Maharaja.

That was his conclusion he arrived at upon deep contemplation of prior statements and for ANYONE to just write if off as inconsequential is just missing the whole point behind why Sridhar Maharaja made the statement.

 

To use Sridhar Maharaja as the proof of Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa is in fact a deception, because in reality Sridhar Maharaja left the door open for alternative possibilities.

 

It seems that you have a need to prove that someone else has a need to establish Srila Prabhupada in any particular rasa, when in fact an unbiased observer taking in all the statements of Sridhar Maharaja would have to avoid coming to any concrete conclusions unless he just wants to ignore the total body of his statements on the matter and pick and choose the one that suits his need to prove something one way or the other.

 

 

I don't have a NEED to cater to any camp or Matha.

I have a need to look at ALL the evidence and make MY OWN judgement.

The argument that Srila Prabhupada was empowered by Nitai and thus showed deference to sakhya while veiling his madhurya sentiments is important to consider because it came to us from Srila Sridhara Maharaja. However, it came as an alternative, only in the face of criticism from Iskcon devotees who complained that Sridhara Maharaja was seeking to demean Prabhupada by stating that he was only in sakhya-rasa. He was even criticized for calling Prabhupada saktyavesa because they thought he was saying that Prabhupada himself was nothing but that he had sakti only because of his empowerment. Let me cite a reference here from the book that shows that Srila Sridhara Maharaja was dealing with criticism (although it does not say from Iskcon devotees, this is not only obvious but can be confirmed by anyone who was there at the time). Srila Sridhara Maharaja says:

 

“I took it that Nityananda Prabhu must have awakened some special dedication in him in his last days which helped him to inundate with such an inconceivable magnitude, the whole of the world. But that does not mean that he was nothing before such delegated power came in him. That delegation may only come in a proper place, just as in other saktyavesa-avataras, the sakti accepts a particular place and that is not an ordinary thing. One must be a proper receptacle to receive that. Saktysvesa. Does it mean that when the delegation comes it will enter some bad thing? This supposition is mischievous, and those that will make this mischief out of my statement regarding the delegation of Nityananda entering him will diminish faith. They will prepare the field for becoming atheists. This is suicidal, to propagate in that line.

 

“And the sakhya-rasa is also not to be neglected. Dasa Goswami, who is thought to hold the highest position of madhurya-rasa, our prayojana acarya himself says, sakhayam me namasta nityam. What does it mean? Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Is it an intellectual field that we can pass resolutions, pass remarks in any way we like in our fashion? No. Dasa Goswami, who is posted in the highest position of the prayojana-tattva, the acarya of prayojana in madhurya-rasa of Radha dasyam, he says that I will try to show my reverence to sakhya. It is not a play thing. This is very rarely to be found. We must go to that plane and then we should deal with these things. Sakhya-rasa is a very small thing? What is this? From a distance I want to show my respect to sakhya-rasa. That should be the tendency of a real devotee, and not to disregard all these things.”

 

So this excerpt shows that Srila Sridhara Maharaja was dealing with complaints. This can also be inferred from the fact that the veiled madhurya option came after his original opinion, as well as by the highly qualified language he used in the second option. So we have two opinions of Srila Sridhara Maharaja to consider, one which he himself preferred and another that he suggested in the face of criticism or concern by Iskcon devotees.

 

Furthermore, in light of considerable information presented in the book, including direct statements from Prabhupada to his disciples declaring himself to be a cowherd boy, which Srila Sridhara Maharaja was not privy to, Sridhara Mahajara’s personal opinion becomes all the more likely. Indeed, the fact is that even when presenting a second alternative, Srila Sridhara Maharaja himself ends up supporting his own personal opinion! Moreover, the examples Srila Sridhara Maharaja gave of deference to Nityananda Prabhu are limited to installing Gaura-Nitai Deities and Krsna-Balarama Deities.

 

As far as veiling madhurya-rasa, Prabhupada did not really do that. He preached strongly that madhurya-rasa was objectively the highest ideal of the sampradaya and labored hard to help others understand the difference between madhurya-prema and kama. He also established Deites of Radha-Krsna everywhere.

 

Deference to Nityananda is one thing, saying “I am a cowherd boy” is another, as is Srila Prabhupada desiring to enter the gosthi-lila of Krsna as Prabhupada did in his poem. Note that in the conversation in which Srila Sridhara Maharaja discusses Srila Prabhupada’s deference to Nityananda he makes no reference to Prabhupada’s poem as an example of such deference. Instead he returns to the prayer in the course of suggesting this possible alternative and in doing so goes on to support his own personal opinion with it!

 

There have been many great devotees empowered by Nityananda in his parivara who have shown deference to him, but in doing so they never expressed interest in sakhya-rasa nor did they hide their madhurya sentiments. Virabhadra Goswami is a prime example.

 

In conclusion, is it possible that Srila Prabhupada veiled a madhurya sentiment, going so far as to say that he was a cowherd boy? Yes. But is it likely? No.

[Sukhada]

 

And despite claims that Sridhar Maharaja was more or less pressured into saying this, I don't buy it because in the course of this discussion I have not found anyone complaining about Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa or pressuring Sridhar Maharaja to contradict his previous statements on the matter of Prabhupada expressing sakhya-rasa sentiments.

 

In addition to the answer I gave above, I would like to add that in the excerpt of Narasingha Maharaja that you yourself posted, he confirms that some Iskcon devotees took exception to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's original opinion:

 

Such a statement by Srila Sridhara Maharaja is not to be taken lightly. A short time later there was some objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's referring to our Guru Maharaja as being in sakhya-rasa. Some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples for some reason took objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's statement. Srila Sridhara Maharaja was shocked by the immaturity of those disciples who objected. The consideration of rasa was obviously not a topic that those disciples were familiar with. Indeed their harshness in dealing with Srila Sridhara Maharaja reflected their extremely neophyte state of Krsna consciousness.

At that time Srila Sridhara Maharaja made reference to the effect that because of the special empowerment of Sri Nityananda Prabhu that our Guru Maharaja might have couched his madhurya tendencies in deference to Lord Nityananda.

[madhuvac]

I read this book and it is quite good--honest and straightforward. It follows guru (Prabhupada's own words on the subject), sadhu (the beautiful commentary/opinion of Sridhara Maharaja/Tripurari Maharaja), and sastra ( explains the sastric support for its conclusions: sakhya rasa in Gaudiya sampradaya is feasible and having a rasa different from one's guru is no fault). Perfect.

 

However, in this in this discussion I find so much speculation, to use Prabhupada's term, and some of it is wild.

 

When it is all said and done I like this quote the most.

 

Prabhupada: "I am a cowherd boy."

 

The story ends here for any honest person. And if it is supported by sadhu and sastra, as it is in this book, all the better. All this twisting and turning to make something else out of this clear statement is just plain suspect.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

In addition to the answer I gave above, I would like to add that in the excerpt of Narasingha Maharaja that you yourself posted, he confirms that some Iskcon devotees took exception to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's original opinion:

 

Such a statement by Srila Sridhara Maharaja is not to be taken lightly. A short time later there was some objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's referring to our Guru Maharaja as being in sakhya-rasa. Some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples for some reason took objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's statement. Srila Sridhara Maharaja was shocked by the immaturity of those disciples who objected. The consideration of rasa was obviously not a topic that those disciples were familiar with. Indeed their harshness in dealing with Srila Sridhara Maharaja reflected their extremely neophyte state of Krsna consciousness.

At that time Srila Sridhara Maharaja made reference to the effect that because of the special empowerment of Sri Nityananda Prabhu that our Guru Maharaja might have couched his madhurya tendencies in deference to Lord Nityananda.

 

Well, I am not so sure that the situation unfolded exactly as this.

 

In the conversation where Sridhar Maharaja gave the explanation of veiled madhurya-rasa I didn't hear any coercion or extortion going on.

 

In fact, the very insinuation that that Sridhar Maharaja succumbed to pressure and coughed-up another explanation to satisfy disgruntled followers of Srila Prabhupada is just quite laughable as far as I am concerned.

 

That is one point where I am not "wholly one" with Narasingha Maharaja, whom I otherwise have a lot of appreciation for.

 

I have just not seen any evdidence to substantiate this theory.

 

I would be glad to look at the evidence.

I haven't seen any.

Just claims.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

Prabhupada: "I am a cowherd boy."

 

 

Oh how nice.

Another "Prabhupada said" for the books that there is no documented evidence for.

 

Prabhupada didn't reveal his svarupa.

It's a secret.

 

He told me in a dream to ask Subal Sakha because he knows.

 

I haven't yet had a chance to talk with Subal Sakha.

[Sukhada]

 

It is not that they don't mix. For me this has never been a question. Mixing is different than being. Sugar and Milk make wonderful things, but Sugar is not Milk. This is the "paradox". Perhaps what we have just witnessed recently (being materially manifest in the line of Mahaprabhu, Shri Rupa, and Siddhanta Saraswati) is just that... the mixing of Sugar and Milk.

Yes. It's not that uncommon though for the guru and disciple to have different sentiments. Think of how Bhaktivinode Thakura even made a point to illustrate it in Jaiva Dharma--Vrajanatha was attracted to sakhya-rasa, although his guru was in madhurya-rasa. It is interesting to note that he saw his guru as being an embodiment of Subala sakha though. Nonetheless, although a disciple may see the guru through the lens of bhava, the guru does have one svarupa in Krsna-lila, and this svarupa doesn't change (and I mention this only due to insinuations by someone else on the thread).

[Narasingh]

 

Oh how nice.

Another "Prabhupada said" for the books that there is no documented evidence for.

 

Prabhupada didn't reveal his svarupa.

It's a secret.

 

He told me in a dream to ask Subal Sakha because he knows.

 

I haven't yet had a chance to talk with Subal Sakha.

 

More recent evidence for differing sentiments appearing

within the same lineage is found in the well-known case

of Shyamananda Prabhu, the disciple of Hrdaya-caitanya.

Hrdaya-caitanya was a disciple of Gauridasa Pandita, who

is Subala-sakha in Krsna lîla. Like his guru Gauridasa,

Hrdaya-caitanya was also steeped in sakhya-rasa, yet his disciple

Dukhi Krsnadasa, who later became famous as Shyamananda,

tasted conjugal love.

[Sukhada]

 

Well, I am not so sure that the situation unfolded exactly as this.

Which isn't surprising since you already said you were in California at the time.

 

 

In the conversation where Sridhar Maharaja gave the explanation of veiled madhurya-rasa I didn't hear any coercion or extortion going on.

Maybe you should get your hearing checked. He refers to it, and it is confirmed by Narasingha Maharaja, as well as Tripurari Maharaja.

 

 

In fact, the very insinuation that that Sridhar Maharaja succumbed to pressure and coughed-up another explanation to satisfy disgruntled followers of Srila Prabhupada is just quite laughable as far as I am concerned.

It's not that he succumbed to pressure. It is that he had a very harmonizing nature and was expert at giving different angles of vision that conform to siddhanta.

 

 

I have just not seen any evdidence to substantiate this theory.

I would be glad to look at the evidence.

I haven't seen any.

Just claims.

Unfortunately you don't seem to accept any evidence except that which arises in your own head.

[mud]

 

In the conversation where Sridhar Maharaja gave the explanation of veiled madhurya-rasa I didn't hear any coercion or extortion going on.

 

In fact, the very insinuation that that Sridhar Maharaja succumbed to pressure and coughed-up another explanation to satisfy disgruntled followers of Srila Prabhupada is just quite laughable as far as I am concerned.

 

I would be glad to look at the evidence.

I haven't seen any.

Just claims.

 

Sonic Yogi, do you read what people post?

 

 

This supposition is mischievous, and those that will make this mischief out of my statement regarding the delegation of Nityananda entering him will diminish faith.

 

 

Sakhya-rasa is a very small thing? What is this?

 

Look at the evidence. Sridhar Maharaj is frustrated because people have some complaint about his opinion. He is preaching against their idiocy. Succumbing to pressure is your reading, and if you have experience of Sridhar Maharaj you should know that he is a harmonizer, not someone who could be controlled by neophytes, but rather a well-wisher. He gives another way that people could consider Prabhupada's rasa because they had mundane vision of the thing, that it is lower, etc. Despite his own clear opinion expressed several times he says "well, here is another way you could think about it". What a wonderful sadhu, teacher, guru. If you are not satisfied he uses his divine wisdom to help you see it another way.

[madhuvac]

 

Oh how nice.

Another "Prabhupada said" for the books that there is no documented evidence for.

 

Prabhupada didn't reveal his svarupa.

It's a secret.

 

He told me in a dream to ask Subal Sakha because he knows.

 

I haven't yet had a chance to talk with Subal Sakha.

 

 

Fortunately its supported by about three different devotees on three different occasions and the fact that Prabhupada asked that a poem about him being a cowherd boy be printed in the BTG, which it was. Earlier you said evidence from his books was most important to you. How about his flagship magazine in which nothing was printed without his direct approval in those days?

 

I am afraid "I am a cowherd boy" is not something three or so different devotees are imagining when you combine this will all the other evidence.

 

It is one thing to reveal the details another the basic sentiment. It's clear to me that he did the latter. For you to be right everything stated by his early disciples has to be rejected. And every other piece of evidence has to be twisted into something else. You are going against the grain, upstream. It's unnatural.

 

As you yourself have said you are just playing the antiparty. Better at this point to join the party and flow with the current of nectar.

[Narasingh]

 

Yes. It's not that uncommon though for the guru and disciple to have different sentiments. Think of how Bhaktivinode Thakura even made a point to illustrate it in Jaiva Dharma--Vrajanatha was attracted to sakhya-rasa, although his guru was in madhurya-rasa. It is interesting to note that he saw his guru as being an embodiment of Subala sakha though. Nonetheless, although a disciple may see the guru through the lens of bhava, the guru does have one svarupa in Krsna-lila, and this svarupa doesn't change (and I mention this only due to insinuations by someone else on the thread).

It has been mentioned before, in this thread, that Srila Shridhara Maharaj gives room for possibilities. And as you put it this can be harmonized by the disciples inherent bhava acting as a lens.

 

I have mentioned before that I believe that even if certain members of the greater Vaishnava community may have a difficult time accepting this notion, it may serve a greater purpose to publicly accept it. That purpose being, we must recognize that we cant manipulate our position in the service of the Divine Couple. As Prabhupada is sakha and Saraswati Thakura is manjari, we have to understand that a position will be bestowed upon us (when and if we can be so deserving) depending only upon the sweet will of the Divine Couple, not that by becoming initiated by a Guru of a certain camp in sadhana, one is automatically and mathematically bestowed entrance into the direct siddha svarup camp of the Guru.

 

Divine Grace must be held above all in our quest for the true nourishment of our soul.

[bhaktatraveler]

 

Oh how nice.

Another "Prabhupada said" for the books that there is no documented evidence for.

 

Prabhupada didn't reveal his svarupa.

It's a secret.

 

He told me in a dream to ask Subal Sakha because he knows.

 

I haven't yet had a chance to talk with Subal Sakha.

 

I have seen Prabhupada's svarupa and it is a secret only Prabhupada should tell you. Then you will also keep it secret! If they tell, know them to be dishonest. If you have to ask, your not ready for the answer.

 

RCB

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Fortunately its supported by about three different devotees on three different occasions and the fact that Prabhupada asked that a poem about him being a cowherd boy be printed in the BTG, which it was. Earlier you said evidence from his books was most important to you. How about his flagship magazine in which nothing was printed without his direct approval in those days?

 

I am afraid "I am a cowherd boy" is not something three or so different devotees are imagining when you combine this will all the other evidence.

 

It is one thing to reveal the details another the basic sentiment. It's clear to me that he did the latter. For you to be right everything stated by his early disciples has to be rejected. And every other piece of evidence has to be twisted into something else. You are going against the grain, upstream. It's unnatural.

 

As you yourself have said you are just playing the antiparty. Better at this point to join the party and flow with the current of nectar.

Well, I was in ISKCON for several years.

Was initiated brahmana during the Prabhupada era.

 

Never heard any story about Prabhupada being a cowherd boy.

 

There are lots of myths from the era of hippie ISKCON.

 

I wasn't in hippie ISKCON.

 

I was in ISKCON during it's peak season and never heard any senior devotee say anything about Prabhupada being a cowherd boy.

 

Your claim is just "Prabhupada said" and you still haven't produced any verifiable evidence.

 

Here is all the evidence I need:

 

NOD conclusion:

 

 

There are two different tomblike structures in the Rādhā-Dāmodara temple; one structure is called his place of bhajana, and in the other his body is entombed. Behind this very tomb I have my place of bhajana,

If that isn't a revelation of madhurya-rasa, then I'll be a monkey's uncle.

 

I have evidence.

You have "Prabhupada said".

[Sukhada]

 

What is so hidden about statements like, "we are Rupanugas?"

Babhru has addressed the contention that one must be in manjari-bhava to be a Rupanuga in the book.

 

Yet it is hidden. It is hidden from the view of those who do not have the sraddha to approach it or those who actually are in a different rasa. Many Iskcon devotees have read Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1, many times, yet they still have no idea of what is the internal reasons for Mahaprabhu's appearance although it is in black and white directly before them. Srila Sridhar Maharaja explained that not all the followers of 'Swami Maharaja' are Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Is it not reasonable that he would want to keep the most confidential understanding of Rupanuga far away from those who would misunderstand and perhaps abuse it?

I do not think that Srila Prabhupada kept the confidential understanding of Rupanuga from people. I've already said that I think that is a weak argument in light of the fact that the essential understanding of Rupanuga is there in his books. Some details may not be filled in, but that is appropriate given the circumstances. So what is really being kept confidential and avoiding abuse by saying to some of his disciples that he is in sakhya-rasa? Do you really think that this was his motivation behind telling those disciples that? Don't you see how flimsy that contention is? It does nothing to "protect" madhurya-rasa to pose to be in another rasa. If he really wanted to keep madhurya-rasa confidential, why wouldn't he just not talk about it at all?

And then simultaneously he is reflecting the sakhya mood of Sri Nityananda Prabhu, who is Baladeva Prabhu, all the while in his heart of hearts, a Rupanuga in Radha dasyam which is generally hidden from view, except when he becomes stunned in ecstacy while singing, Jaya Radha Madhava.

If you want to hear about Srila Prabhupada being stunned in ecstasy, read the story of Srutakrti in the book.

[madhuvac]

 

Well, I was in ISKCON for several years.

Was initiated brahmana during the Prabhupada era.

 

Never heard any story about Prabhupada being a cowherd boy.

 

There are lots of myths from the era of hippie ISKCON.

 

I wasn't in hippie ISKCON.

 

I was in ISKCON during it's peak season and never heard any senior devotee say anything about Prabhupada being a cowherd boy.

 

Your claim is just "Prabhupada said" and you still haven't produced any verifiable evidence.

 

Here is all the evidence I need:

 

NOD conclusion:

 

 

If that isn't a revelation of madhurya-rasa, then I'll be a monkey's uncle.

 

I have evidence.

You have "Prabhupada said".

 

Are you telling us that you received second initiation from Prabhupada?

 

Hippie Iskcon as you refer to it was much more intimate and close to Prabhupada personally. You dismiss it to readily. It is also disrespectful to dismiss so easily this era, an era that generated the kind of service to Prabhupada that made the larger Iskcon you joined possible. You might want to rethink that because it has much to do with how spiritual life works.

 

But that aside, you most definitely are a monkey's uncle and I think Prabupada would be proud of you for disproving Darwins theory--kind of.

 

Where is it stated that whoever does their bhajana at Radha Damodara is in madhurya rasa? Prabhupada did bhajan there, but what we hear from him about it is how he was inspired by Rupa Goswami to write his Bhgavatam, to preach that is. We are inspired by it as the place where he wrote the first three volumes of the Bhagavatam and envisioned world wide preaching. It was his base from which he would go into Delhi to get his BTG printed. Yes, he lives there forever in his eternally perfected sadhaka-deha.

 

However, he retired from preaching and entered samadhi in Raman-reti. He is there in his siddha deha in Krsna lila, and it is a place of sakhya rasa.

 

Now I am not related to any monkeys, either backwards, forwards, or sideways in my family line, so I acknowledge that we could be speaking different languages.

[stonehearted]

 

Oh how nice.

Another "Prabhupada said" for the books that there is no documented evidence for.

 

No, we don't have it on tape (but we know how easily that can be manipulated--ever listen to the "appointment tapes" with really good audio equipment?) or in a book (who would write such a thing in one of his books, and if he did, it would just be another thing to roast the editors for). But I've known the woman from whom this statement came for over 40 years. This story hasn't changed one letter in those 40 years. We also have to note that such a statement is corroborated by his comments on Harsarani's poem, as well as by elevated sadhus such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Puri Maharaja. It's not an isolated piece of evidence but part of a very sweet picture.

 

 

Prabhupada didn't reveal his svarupa.

I'd contend that he left a trail of hints. (Actually, not only would I contend so, but I have, haven't I?)

 

 

He told me in a dream to ask Subal Sakha because he knows.

 

And you don't see that as a BIG hint? I also have to say that he has been a bit more explicit in other devotees' "dreams."

 

 

I haven't yet had a chance to talk with Subal Sakha.

Keep at it, brother.

[mud]

 

Well, I was in ISKCON for several years.

If that isn't a revelation of madhurya-rasa, then I'll be a monkey's uncle.

 

You have "Prabhupada said".

I thought that evolution worked in the opposite way, that we came from the monkeys... I guess your descendents are proving the current theory wrong!

 

That is nowhere near a revelation of madhurya rasa. As others have suggested several times, as the book suggests, all gaudiya vaishnava's in our sampradaya are followers of Rupa. This does not necessitate madhurya rasa. The evidence we have of Prabhupada's relationship with Rupa Goswami while living at Radha-Damodara was in relation to preaching (Prabhupada spoke about getting encouragement by Sri Rupa in dreams to carry out his preaching mission.) Bhajan to Rupa Goswami does not mean madhurya rati and your evidence does not support your specific claim. On the other hand, "Prabhupada said" A LOT and was very specific about sakhya.

 

So let's grow up, out of this monkey's uncle business and start using our finer human intelligence.

[mud]

 

But that aside, you most definitely are a monkey's uncle and I think Prabupada would be proud of you for disproving Darwins theory--kind of.

 

Now I am not related to any monkeys, either backwards, forwards, or sideways in my family line, so I acknowledge that we could be speaking different languages.

NICE!!!! I tried, but this joke you just NAILED!

Hey, is Madhuvac like some kind of honey nectar vacuum?

[Sukhada]

 

It has been mentioned before, in this thread, that Srila Shridhara Maharaj gives room for possibilities. And as you put it this can be harmonized by the disciples inherent bhava acting as a lens.

 

I have mentioned before that I believe that even if certain members of the greater Vaishnava community may have a difficult time accepting this notion, it may serve a greater purpose to publicly accept it. That purpose being, we must recognize that we cant manipulate our position in the service of the Divine Couple. As Prabhupada is sakha and Saraswati Thakura is manjari, we have to understand that a position will be bestowed upon us (when and if we can be so deserving) depending only upon the sweet will of the Divine Couple, not that by becoming initiated by a Guru of a certain camp in sadhana, one is automatically and mathematically bestowed entrance into the direct siddha svarup camp of the Guru.

 

Divine Grace must be held above all in our quest for the true nourishment of our soul.

Good point.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

So let's grow up, out of this monkey's uncle business and start using our finer human intelligence.

 

Then let's halt all this attempt to know the rasa of a shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda.

 

When Lord Nityananda enters your heart sakhya-rasa will be strong.

 

We can give up the guessing game.

 

Srila Prabhupada instituted a sahajiya prevention program into his worldwide preaching.

 

Showing sakhya-rasa sentiments was a strategic aspect of his sahajiya prevention program. (my opinion)

 

Beyond that, we know that he also wrote in his prayers to the lotus feet of Krsna that Radharani was his guru.

 

I guess you just can't imagine that to be any sort of madhurya-rasa sentiment?

 

Besides that, aren't we supposed to see the acharya as either a manifested representation of Lord Nityananda or Srimati Radharani.

 

As guru tattva, Srila Prabhupada's personal rasa is not what we need to see.

 

We need to see him as either the functional form of Lord Nityananda or Srimati Radharani.

 

This pre-occupation with his personal rasa is for someone with too much time on his hands.