New booklet about Srila Prabhupada

[andy108]

 

You were speculating how Srila Prabhupada might have thought, based on nothing but a mundane calculation that because madhurya-rasa is the highest Srila Prabhupada must have been dissatisfied with his rasa and wanted to change rasas. There are two points of apasiddhanta in this speculation: 1) that someone who is situated in their sthayi-bhava would become dissatisfied with it and 2) that the sthayi-bhava can change. Thus you were saying that Srila Prabhupada would think apasiddhanta.

 

By your logic, the whole of Goloka Vrindavana should be filled up with nothing but manjaris by now.

 

The quotations that you posted are an objective analysis of rasa from the standpoint of tattva. They are not outlining the development of a jiva. One does not first attain santa, then dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, and finally madhurya. Once the sthayi-bhava is attained, it is sthayi (fixed). Srila Prabhupada addresses this in a conversation with Hamsaduta:

 

Hamsaduta: Suppose someone is situated as Visnuduta. He may change his taste.

Prabhupada: Why he shall change it?

Hamsaduta: He may get a taste for associating with Krsna.

Prabhupada: The change is taking place in this material world. There all tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa. Every one of us has a different taste of associating with Krsna, and that will be realized when one is liberated.

Hamsaduta: So that's fixed already.

Prabhupada: Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with Krsna. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family, we enjoy different rasas. We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relation with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, Krsna... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife?

Hamsaduta: I see.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. Maybe some degradation, but it is palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas." No, that is not. Everyone thinks, "My rasa is the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Caitanya-caritamrta. Why don't you see?

Hamsaduta: And Nectar of Devotion.

Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with Krsna is the best."

Hamsaduta: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some...

Prabhupada: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationship with Krsna. Even the trees in Vrndavana, they want to serve Krsna silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda, everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Krsna comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment: "Oh..."

 

 

In the Caitanya-caritamrta, Rupa and Sanatana try to convert their brother Vallabha to Krsna-bhakti from Rama-bhakti. He agreed to be initiated into the Krsna mantra, but later that night he stayed up crying at the thought of giving up Rama. He went to Rupa and Sanatana in the morning and submitted a plea to remain in the service of Rama. They become very happy and embraced him, praising him as a saintly devotee whose determination was fixed. When Sanatana told Mahaprabhu about this incident, Mahaprabhu said that he had a similar experience with Murari Gupta. After examining him, he said, “Glorious is that devotee who does not give up the shelter of his Lord, and glorious is that Lord who does not abandon His servant.”

 

We must be careful not to muddy the waters of rasananda with mundane logic. Before one is able to conjecture in line with siddhanta (i.e. before thinking), one must learn to think. For this, one requires a guru to help one understand not only what the scripture says, but what it means.

 

It was not based on a mundane calculation, as I proved by the purports in my post.

 

Your mundane mind projected and put words in my mouth. I never mentioned that I thought Srila Prabhupada was dissatisfied.

 

You have a hard time understanding Simultaneous oneness and difference, and how there are exceptions to every rule.

 

In that conversation with Hamsadutta, Srila Prabhupada was doing what every good father would do and stick with the general rule so as not to disturb his growing childs mind and keep him fixed on the basics.

 

And what if Vallabha had become enamored with Krsna? His brothers honored his decision, and would have done so EITHER WAY. Or are you prepared to chide Laxmi Devi for being "fickle"?

 

We are presumably discussing beyond that level now, yet you continue to take a stance as if you are the father and I am the child by only citing one side of the story in order to fulfill your need to be "right".

 

How boring. What a bore you are being.

 

Have you ever thought about how Goloka Vrndavana accomodates the INFINITE NUMBER OF JIVAS IN THE INFINITE NUMBER OF EARTHS who are uncovering their siddha swarupa? Start there.

 

Then think of how Krsna can expand himself and duplicate any scenario in an ever fresh way to accomodate the UNLIMITED TYPES OF TRANSCENDENTAL DESIRES HIS DEVOTEES HAVE in terms of how they wish to please him.

 

Add that to all the evidence that alludes to the "other side of the coin" beyond the pablum appropriately fed to neophytes.

 

Then step down from your self-imagined Siksa Guru status, and maybe we have a discussion going.

[NitaiS]

Where do you get your ideas Sonic Yogi? The quote about Uddhava in no way said he wanted to become a gopi (which I think is what you were trying to establish). You can't revere and want the mercy of someone without aspiring to be the same as them? Do you think Krishna Das Babaji did not want the 'foot dust of the gopis"? Its like your Radha-Kunda idea...speculation based on a quote that says nothing of the sort.

[andy108]

 

Where do you get your ideas Sonic Yogi? The quote about Uddhava in no way said he wanted to become a gopi (which I think is what you were trying to establish). You can't revere and want the mercy of someone without aspiring to be the same as them? Do you think Krishna Das Babaji did not want the 'foot dust of the gopis"? Its like your Radha-Kunda idea...speculation based on a quote that says nothing of the sort.

 

He desired to become only an insignificant clump of grass or herbs in the land of Vrndavana.

 

Uddhava aspired to have a future birth in the position of a clump of grass and herbs.

Sounds to me like that aspiration is a desire of a pure devotee.

 

When fulfilled, he might have even less a tendency to think about the ways he used to interact with Krsna, and more aspirations and desires might arise.

 

OH NO! That is out of Tattva! How dare he?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Where do you get your ideas Sonic Yogi? The quote about Uddhava in no way said he wanted to become a gopi (which I think is what you were trying to establish). You can't revere and want the mercy of someone without aspiring to be the same as them? Do you think Krishna Das Babaji did not want the 'foot dust of the gopis"? Its like your Radha-Kunda idea...speculation based on a quote that says nothing of the sort.

 

I can say that what we think we know about bhakta-tattva is just the tip of the iceberg.

There is so much more to spiritual knowledge than the drop we have been given that we cannot even imagine higher truths and higher realities of Goloka.

 

We don't know everything.

We have only been given a drop, a glimpse, a peep into higher knowledge of bhakta-tattva and how devotional service evolves in the spiritual realm.

 

I do remember Sridhar Maharaja saying that the manjari position was the entry level of madhurya-rasa.

 

Manjaris grow up to be sakhis.

 

Manjaris make spiritual advancement till they reach the zenith of madhurya-rasa as a full-fledged sakhi of Radha.

When you can break out of your hard shell of preconceived ideas you will understand that.

 

Even Radharani is eternally advancing in Krsna consciousness and love of Krishna.

[madhuvac]

I have never experienced such lack of interest in arriving at the truth as I have experienced on this thread. Great article Babrhu! I am afraid it has been wasted on this thread on those objecting to it and its conclusions. The thread reads like this: Objections raised, objections answered, answers ignored; more objections raised many of them silly and when answered conclusively the objectors ignore them and bring up their previous objections again and again ad nauseam without an ounce of shame or realization that their objections have been defeated; all of those in favor of the article are polite, thoughtful; objectors lean more in another direction at times (all of them recently) and one of them is in his own words a monkey's uncle. Pathetic. And the recent denigration of sakhya rasa is disgusting.

[Sukhada]

 

It was not based on a mundane calculation, as I proved by the purports in my post.

In my opinion, the only thing your purports proved is that you couldn't understand what they were saying. May I humbly suggest that you take your purports to a guru you trust and ask him if they are proving what you think they are? What is there to lose? While you're at it, ask him what he thinks of your idea that Srila Prabhupada might have previously been a cowherd boy and has evolved into a manjari.

 

You said earlier, "He only touched upon the changing of rasas in rare instances, which I provided." I'm curious why, if you think those quotes are supporting the changing of rasas, you think that they support such only in rare instances. The quotations say nothing about only applying to rare instances.

 

As to the story about the cursing of Tulasi, this is not a story which is accepted by the Goswamis. Furthermore, it doesn't prove your point. Where is the changing of rasas? The examples about Jaya/Vijaya and Uddhava also don't prove your point, as they didn't change their rasa either. There is also a verse attributed to Radharani in which she desires to have the closeness that the cowherds have with Krsna in the daytime. And, of course, she didn't change her sthayi-bhava either. So could you please try again at coming up with an example of a devotee changing svarupas (and limit yourself to Gaudiya grantha, please)? Expansions within Visnu and sakti tattvas don't count, by the way.

 

 

Your mundane mind projected and put words in my mouth. I never mentioned that I thought Srila Prabhupada was dissatisfied.

Nice attempt to turn my words against me, unfortunately with less substance. If you are completely satisfied, why change? If one has "The first glimmers of appreciation for a richer deeper mood," how could one not be dissatisfied with one's own less rich, more shallow mood?

 

 

You have a hard time understanding Simultaneous oneness and difference, and how there are exceptions to every rule.

Please enlighten me then, how simultaneous oneness and difference have anything to do with this topic, because I openly admit that I see no connection.

 

As for exceptions to this rule, I'm still waiting for your pramana.

 

 

In that conversation with Hamsadutta, Srila Prabhupada was doing what every good father would do and stick with the general rule so as not to disturb his growing childs mind and keep him fixed on the basics.

Do you have any proof for this, or are we just to take your word for it?

 

Funny he would do so, if he were really in the midst of changing rasas as you suggested. What would be so hard for him to say that the general rule is X, but there are rare exceptions? What would be the big risk?

 

 

And what if Vallabha had become enamored with Krsna? His brothers honored his decision, and would have done so EITHER WAY. Or are you prepared to chide Laxmi Devi for being "fickle"?

If Vallabha had become enamored, all it would have proved is that he hadn't attained prema. Ironically, although Laxsmi desired to have the company of Krsna, the reason why she couldn't is because she couldn't give up the abhiman of being Laksmi. Sorry, no change of rasa there either.

 

 

We are presumably discussing beyond that level now, yet you continue to take a stance as if you are the father and I am the child by only citing one side of the story in order to fulfill your need to be "right".

Which side of the story am I not citing in my need to be right? The side that proves that occassionally devotees change rasas? Apparently my need to look down on people and fulfill my unquenchable need to be right has completely blinded me in this situation, because for the life of me I just am not seeing that other side of the story. Eagerly waiting for you to show it to me.

 

 

How boring. What a bore you are being.

By god, you've really hit a deep fear in me there. I think I had better start using my imagination more creatively in relation to the lila.

 

Have you ever thought about how Goloka Vrndavana accomodates the INFINITE NUMBER OF JIVAS IN THE INFINITE NUMBER OF EARTHS who are uncovering their siddha swarupa? Start there.

I'm really sorry, Andy, but again you're wrong. To be in Goloka Vrindavana, your svarupa must already be uncovered. And that fact that you've used infinite twice does nothing to increase the chance that sometimes people change rasas.

 

 

Then think of how Krsna can expand himself and duplicate any scenario in an ever fresh way to accomodate the UNLIMITED TYPES OF TRANSCENDENTAL DESIRES HIS DEVOTEES HAVE in terms of how they wish to please him.

Yes, I have. But one more "unlimited," has still done nothing to increase the likelihood of changing rasas.

 

 

Add that to all the evidence that alludes to the "other side of the coin" beyond the pablum appropriately fed to neophytes.

I'm really hoping you didn't mean that or don't know what pablum means.

 

 

Then step down from your self-imagined Siksa Guru status, and maybe we have a discussion going.

[Sonic Yogi]

What Begger was really saying was that, in his opinion, all these high talks about this rasa and that rasa of the acharya are well beyond the range of forum debate.

[stonehearted]

I appreciate that. This is, indeed, not a topic for tourists. Nor is it suitable for cheap amusement. That's not to say I wasn't serious when I invited readers to have fun. But those who won't read it (not to hurt your feelings, sparky) will find themselves taken less seriously.

[gHari]

I very much enjoyed reading the booklet. I'm on chapter seven now and look forward to continuing on my days off.

 

Of course, I reserve making decisions, understanding somewhat the complexities of the topic and my own naivety. But it all sounds very reasonable so far and I certainly don't see any stretching to draw conclusions. It remains humble and innocent, like that of an honest sincerely interested vaishnava.

 

Before I start leaning I would like to see the same gifted scholars and sadhus make the same effort to present a parental or conjugal rasa position. If a similarly compelling booklet could support another thesis then we are back at square one - yet with a whole lot more Prabhupada katha under our belts. And that is never a waste of anyone's time.

[NitaiS]

 

I very much enjoyed reading the booklet. I'm on chapter seven now and look forward to continuing on my days off.

 

Before I start leaning I would like to see the same gifted scholars and sadhus make the same effort to present a parental or conjugal rasa position. If a similarly compelling booklet could support another thesis then we are back at square one - yet with a whole lot more Prabhupada katha under our belts. And that is never a waste of anyone's time.

Haribol! an objective reader (as opposed to a fault-seeking non-reader).

 

I concur that the same effort should be put into the other two booklets you proposed, but I admit, I think such an effort would in the end only reinforce the direction of this booklet (not that you are hoping otherwise).

 

I think for the critics (and non-readers) to be satisfied though, the other two books would have to be done by different sadhus and scholars, lest these sadhus and scholars be accused of predisposition. There are certainly sadhus and scholars invested in the conjugal angle who we could rely on to go full throttle at their task (dare I say, maybe they have already, and fallen short?), but it may be hard to find many devotees of Laddu Gopal to take up their end.

 

But really I do think their has been considerable (considerably more?) effort put into the "Prabhupada is a manjari" thesis by sadhus and intellectuals fully qualified to search the Vedabase and the Sridhara Maharaja Folio (which is largely what this book is in terms of pramana). I'm thinking the reason your proposing it be done again is because you are equating the relatively weak findings with a lack of initial effort. Rather I would propose the findings are weak because the thesis is incorrect..simple.

 

Many raise questions about the pre-ISKCON days and how that may give us the conclusive insight. But, time travel aside, we have what we have, and every angle has access to it all. So, working with what we have, it seems Babhru, Tripurari Maharaja, and the evidence contributors referenced in the foreword, have surpassed any other attempts to date. Perhaps it was possible because it is true.

 

Questioning the authenticity of a certain evidence is of course one method to counter opposing signals, but discrediting everything not in the Vedabase or bound in a spine that says "BBT" is absurd. (note I am not directing this at you, as you have not done these things.)

[Beggar]

First part of :02-27-2009, 10:52 PM <!-- / status icon and date --> #38

 

I did some research and I found a statement by Tripuari Maharaja that I was unaware of:

May 30, 2000, Vol. II, No. 22

Srila Prabhupada: Sakhya or Srngara-Rasa?

Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

 

 

 

This should end any reason for debating the issue.

So why doesn't it? Some people have an agenda.

[Sukhada]

Here is Swami B. V. Tripurari's reply to the article of Jadurani dasi.

 

Q. Jadurani dasi recently wrote an article for VNN entitled “Is Srila Prabhupada in the Highest Rasa?” in which she attempts to refute your article “Prabhupada, Subala, and Sakhya-Rasa.” Have you read it?

 

A. Yes, I just read her article with interest. While Jadurani devi informs us that we are not to conjecture as to Srila Prabhupada's relationship with Krsna, but rather hear from disciplic succession and sastra, she proceeds to conjecture about this very thing herself (while marshaling some sastra in support of her conjecture and citing the opinion of Pujyapada B.V. Narayana Maharaja). She is not to be faulted for this (as she has faulted me) because the use of reason in conjunction with scripture and the words of saints is not what is rejected in the sutra of Vyasa that she cited (tarko 'pratisthanat). The spirit of this sutra is that reason when not supported by sastra is inconclusive.

 

My statement in the article “Prabhupada, Subala, and Sakhya-Rasa” that it is reasonable to conjecture that Prabhupada may be situated in sakhya-rasa (like Subala) is supportable by sadhu and sastra, and it does not involve belittling him in any way whatsoever, as one might think after reading Srimati Jadurani's article. This was the opinion of Om Visnupada Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja. Indeed, I have merely paraphrased his own words, which are full of spiritual reasoning.

 

Scripture says nothing to us that would rule out the possibility that Prabhupada may be situated in sakhya-rasa. Furthermore, a careful reading of my words reveal that I have also said, repeating what I have heard from my siksa-guru, that it is possible that Prabhupada is situated in srngara-rasa, yet owing to his empowerment by Nityananda prabhu and out of deference to him, he veiled his madhurya sentiments, and this empowerment explains why we find expressions of sakhya-bhava in his words and character here and there. Thus I tried to offer a balanced, neutral reply to the inquiry that gave rise to my article.

 

It should be noted that it is possible that one disciple may experience his Gurudeva as a representative of srngara-rasa, while another will experience him as representing Subala in sakhya-rasa. This is discussed in Jaiva Dharma. So, if some of Prabhupada's disciples experience the influence of sakhya-bhava in Srila Prabhupada and are inspired by this, there is no harm. Let their ruci be their guide.

 

It is important in a discussion like this that we do not denigrate something so wonderful as sakhya-rasa. If Prabhupada is so situated, it is not a bad thing. One should be so lucky as to find this kind of guru in our times, a prema-bhakta. If we have taken initiation from a guru situated in sakhya-rasa and we are destined for gopi-bhava, our gurudeva will make all necessary arrangements for us when necessary. Some disciples may be in his group, while others may be recruited by him for the sampradaya in general, and as a dutiful servant he will place them where they need to be to make progress in due course.

 

I am well aware of the opinion of Pujyapada Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja on this issue, and I thank Srimati Jadurani for sharing it in print. It no doubt has merit and is evidence of strong spiritual feeling on his part. This is what we are all after—strong feelings on matters of this nature. However, one of the hallmarks of our tradition is that it accommodates a variety of such feelings.

 

I do not care to debate this issue further, either in private or public. In conclusion, I assure you that if a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is drawn to sakhya-rasa with the sentiment of a priya-narma-sakha, he or she would have no difficulty providing considerable evidence in support of the experience that Srila Prabhupada represents this bhava. The reason for this is that in spiritual life reason and scriptural interpretation ultimately follow feeling (ruci/bhava).

 

Swami B.V. Tripurari

 

Additional notes on Jadurani dasi's article:

 

Srimati Jadurani has said, “Pujyapada Tripurari Maharaja has given a poem about Subala-sakha serving in the forest bowers (kunjas), though he did not give a sastric reference for that poem. A cowherd boy would not sing this song.”

 

Note: This is a verse from Rupa Goswami's Ujjvala-nilamani chapter two, verse 14. In this chapter the extent to which Krsna's friends are involved in madhurya-rasa is explained. Subala's friendly love for Krsna is very much involved in this, to the extent that Rupa Goswami has called it “sakhi-bhava” in his Radha-Krsna Gonnodesa dipika.

 

Jadurani devi: “We do not know of a single instance where an acarya in our Rupanuga line has a different svarupa and service from that of his guru, in whose footsteps he follows.”

 

Note: Prabhupada says in SB 2.9.30 that “Lord Brahma is definitely situated in the humor of friendship with the Lord...It is clearly exhibited herein that Lord Brahma is related to the Personality of Godhead in the transcendental humor of friendship.”

 

We also find that devotees such as Akincana Krsandasa Babaji Maharaja, a disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura whom I have been told accepted one disciple before leaving the world, was situated in sakhya-rasa, although his Gurudeva was in manjari-bhava. Sripada Narayana Maharaja personally confirmed this to me when I discussed it with him. He told me that Babaji Maharaja personally told this to him. So there are exceptions to the norm, as in all cases.

 

Jadurani devi said that the gopala-mantra and kama-gayatri are not for any other mood than madhurya rasa. However, Gopa Kumara of Sanatana Goswami's seminal Brhat Bhagavatamrta chanted the Gopala mantra (the gayatri that corresponds with this is kama-gayatri) and attained sakhya-rasa. Sripada Narayana Maharaja himself has explained the possibility of chanting the Gopala-mantra and attaining sakhya-rasa by placing emphasis on the name govinda over gopi-jana-vallabha.

 

Jadurani devi has quoted me thus: “Pujyapada Tripurari Maharaja writes: 'Thus it is reasonable to conjecture that Om Visnupada

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada, who established the worship of Radha Krsna, Gaura Nitai, and Krsna Balarama so widely, was himself influenced by the bhava of a priya-narma-sakha, either directly or indirectly, owing to the influence of his empowerment by Nityananda Prabhu. In the case of the latter possibility, his affinity for madhurya would have been veiled to some extent.' “

 

It is clear from her explanation/refutation of this statement that Jadurani devi has not understood my comments. I have explained them above in paragraphs two and three.

 

Jadurani devi cites Prabhupada's poem aboard the Jaladuta, wherein he appears to aspire to enter Krsna-lila in sakhya-rasa. She says that this need not be construed to indicate that Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa, because Radharani may also sometimes desire to love Krsna in the mood of a friend. However, although it is true that Sri Radha may feel like this at times, it would in the very least be odd for one aspiring to enter Krsna lila in manjari-bhava to pray like this.

 

Srimati Jadurani's citation of Prabhupada's own explanation of why he established the Krsna-Balarama temple in Vrndavana is telling to the discerning reader. It is less than supportive of her premise. Overall she has done a fair job of explaining the difference between manjari-bhava and the bhava of a priya-narma-sakha. Other than that, the basic thrust of her article as I read it is, “Because Prabhupada must be in manjari-bhava, he can not be in sakhya-bhava, which is different.” She has also given some justification, arguments I am familiar with (although inconclusive in my opinion and that of my siksa-guru), as to why Prabhupada must be situated in manjari-bhava.

 

My humble pranams to her grace Srimati Jadurani devi.

[suchandra]

Clearly a topic Lord Caitanya never would approve to be discussed in public since He Himself would never discuss such topics even with Svarup Damodar Goswami, He only discussed such confidential topics with Ramananda Raya.

 

Since the different rasas are in sum different forms of love to Krishna, the extent of how much a devotee is in love with Krishna has to be studied.

 

Thus Srila Prabhupada's effort to establish bhakti-yoga on this planet in this Kali-yuga can be seen as an expression of his love to Krishna.

 

If others at that time - 1966- would have experienced even stronger symptoms of love of God, this would have been become visible in their attempt to fullfill the desire of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and spread pure bhakti in every town in village.

 

So far there's no report of somebody else directing his love of God into action of such kind and fullfilling the yuga-avatar's mercy of distributing the highest love of God on this planet to all of us.

 

Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is the crest jewel-gem among all the divine donors. When Lord Chaitanya went to Vidyanagar and met Raya Ramananada, the latter praised the Lord as follows.

 

“O lord, You are verily the Supreme Autocrat, who can understand the significance of Your acts ? You are the EMBODIMENT of MERCY as well as the REDEEMER OF THE FALLEN. Your arrival to this place is intended to save me from downfall. It is the nature of the great souls that, they tour to visit the fallen souls for delivering them, even without having to accomplish for themselves.”

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

Note: Prabhupada says in SB 2.9.30 that “Lord Brahma is definitely situated in the humor of friendship with the Lord...It is clearly exhibited herein that Lord Brahma is related to the Personality of Godhead in the transcendental humor of friendship.”

 

This statement needs to be clarified.

What is meant in this statement by Srila Prabhupada is that Lord Brahma in his relative position as Lord Brahma is in sakhya-rasa with Krsna.

Internally, in his self-realized position he is in madhurya-rasa as evidenced by this quote from Brahma Samhita and commentary.

 

 

Śrī Brahma-saḿhitā 5.28

 

trayyā prabuddho 'tha vidhir

 

vījñāta-tattva-sāgaraḥ

 

tuṣṭāva veda-sāreṇa

 

stotreṇānena keśavam

 

SYNONYMS

 

trayyā — by the embodiment of the three Vedas; prabuddhaḥ — enlightened; atha — then; vidhiḥ — Brahmā; vijñāta — acquainted with; tattva-sāgaraḥ — the ocean of truth; tuṣṭāva — worshiped; veda-sāreṇa — which is the essence of all Vedas; stotreṇa — by the hymn; anena — this; keśavam — Śrī Kṛṣṇa.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Enlightened by the recollection of that Gāyatrī, embodying the three Vedas, Brahmā became acquainted with the expanse of the ocean of truth. Then he worshiped Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the essence of all Vedas, with this hymn.

 

PURPORT

 

Brahmā thought thus within himself, "By the recollection of kāma-gāyatrī it seems to me that I am the eternal maidservant of Kṛṣṇa." Though the other mysteries in regard to the condition of the maidservant of Kṛṣṇa were not revealed to him, Brahmā, by dint of his searching self-consciousness, became well acquainted with the ocean of truth. All the truths of the Vedas were revealed to him and with the help of those essences of the Vedas he offered this hymn to the Supreme Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Śrīmān Mahāprabhu has taught this hymn to His favorite disciples in as much as it fully contains all the transcendental truths regarding the Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Readers are requested to study and try to enter into the spirit of his hymn with great care and attention, as a regular daily function.

So, the Gaudiya parampara is about the internal, eternal rasa of the spiritual master, not about his rasa involving his external functions in relation with the material energy.

 

This is a good example of the situation of Srila Prabhupada as well.

Externally, to do his preaching work he was in the sakhya-rasa much like Lord Brahma is.

Internally, much like Lord Brahma he realizes himself to be an eternal maidservant of Krsna.

 

In his preaching work in the material world Srila Prabhupada had a male form, so externally his showed some sakhya-rasa of male friendship to Krsna.

He did not manifest his internal heart of hearts but showed the mood in which he carried out his preaching work in the material world in a male body.

[stonehearted]

 

Before I start leaning I would like to see the same gifted scholars and sadhus make the same effort to present a parental or conjugal rasa position. If a similarly compelling booklet could support another thesis then we are back at square one - yet with a whole lot more Prabhupada katha under our belts. And that is never a waste of anyone's time.

Thanks for your kind words, Gary. You probably noticed that I call early on for anyone with a comparable body of evidence pointing in another direction to share it with us and generate a hurricane of Prabhupada katha. The reason there isn't much evidence here for gopi-bhava or vatsalya bhava is that I couldn't find it. I think that, as far as Brahma is concerned, Bs. 5.28 is an interesting consideration. But the conclusion sparky draws above is his own idea. I don't see him supporting it beyond his own inference about what it means.

 

And Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavatam purport is pretty unequivocal. Regarding Srila Prabhupada, we don't see much in the way of external evidence that he's situated in madhurya or vatsalya rati. But, as I say repeatedly, I don't insist in the essay that it means he's not, or that some disciples cannot see him as such. But I also admit that I find that external evidence rather compelling.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

"By the recollection of kāma-gāyatrī it seems to me that I am the eternal maidservant of Kṛṣṇa."

 

Kama-gayatri always produces this result.

I cannot produce any other result.

Srila Prabhupada was also initiated into kama-gayatri.

In the perfection of the mantra Srila Prabhupada realized the same results that Lord Brahma did "that I am an eternal maidservant of Krsna".

 

None other than maidservants of Krsna chant kama-gayatri mantra.

It's an internal thing.

It's not something that is always expressed openly in front of millions of gawking spectators watching the jagat-guru evangelize the world.

 

Prabhupada's male body was fully spiritualized.

In that spiritual male body Srila Prabhupada was of course prone to feel and express some sakhya-rasa.

[stonehearted]

Well,some folks make a similar point about the Gopala mantra, and I discuss that in the booklet. But there's evidence that the Gopala mantra, especially the eighteen-syllable Goplala mantra, can support a number of bhavas (which I also discuss in the booklet).

 

Otherwise, you seem to be supporting your own conjecture with further conjecture or your own. I'm more inclined to accept Srila Sridhara Maharaja's conjecture.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Well,some folks make a similar point about the Gopala mantra, and I discuss that in the booklet. But there's evidence that the Gopala mantra, especially the eighteen-syllable Goplala mantra, can support a number of bhavas (which I also discuss in the booklet).

 

Otherwise, you seem to be supporting your own conjecture with further conjecture or your own. I'm more inclined to accept Srila Sridhara Maharaja's conjecture.

 

It's just basic math.

1 + 1 = 2

 

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

 

If Prabhupada says Lord Brahma is in sakhya-rasa and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati says he is in madhurya-rasa, there is only one rational theory that harmonizes these conflicting conclusions.

 

I guess none of us are allowed to realize new conclusions that haven't been said before?

That would make KC a stagnant process.

 

Sure, it's my own conclusion and I am not ashamed of it.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Well,some folks make a similar point about the Gopala mantra, and I discuss that in the booklet. But there's evidence that the Gopala mantra, especially the eighteen-syllable Goplala mantra, can support a number of bhavas (which I also discuss in the booklet).

 

 

Since madhurya-rasa is the mukhya rasa or complete and total rasa that includes all other rasa, a madhurya-rasa bhakta can chant gopal mantra since sakhya-rasa is included in madhurya-rasa.

The gopis are also friends of Krishna too.

Before they were lovers, when they were just little kids they were friends.

 

The gopis parakiya-rasa doesn't appear till they are budding teen-agers.

 

 

But, since madhurya-rasa is NOT contained in sakhya-rasa you will not find a sakhya-rasa bhakta chanting kama-gayatri.

 

These are just basic laws of rasa.

 

The gopis are also friends of Krishna, not just lovers.

[Sonic Yogi]

In the booklet it starts out with a somewhat questionable premise:

 

Tripurari Maharaja:

 

 

As daunting as it may seem, it is we who must take up

this task in earnest and answer definitively who he is, for

it is only by answering this question through the sincerity

of our spiritual practice that we will ever really know who

we are. Srî Visvanåtha Cakravartî Thåkura has told us that while Srî Guru is directly God, at the same time he is dear

to God, kintu prabhor ya˙ priya eva tasya. Srî Guru is directly

Hari, but as we look more closely with eyes of love, we

find that he or she embodies a particular relationship with

Krsna. As sådhana is perfected, bhåva manifests and with it

eyes to see Srî Guru in terms of his or her love for Krsna.

While Srî Guru is God in a representational sense, he or

she is love of God in every respect. Our guru is the very

embodiment of a particular spiritual sentiment with a corresponding

form, and realizing that form has much to do

with realizing our own svarüpa.

I am not so sure that this conclusion is actually anything Srila Prabhupada ever taught.

I would be glad to see some evidence from any previous acharya to support the notion that a person cannot become self-realized if he doesn't know the rasa svarupa of his spiritual master.

 

Again, this seems to be flirting with the siddha-pranali concept.

I do know that Maharaja has some appreciation of Jagadananda das and has had him do some translation work.

 

Jagadananda has already become a full out tantric sahajiya.

 

I hope he didn't have any influence on Maharaja.

[Sonic Yogi]

Like I said, you probably really don't want me to read the booklet.

I have a knack for finding fault.

 

 

T Swami writes:

 

it is only by answering this question through the sincerity

of our spiritual practice that we will ever really know who

we are.

 

Actually, it's not something that is required for self-realization, but something that would come after self-realization.

[Sonic Yogi]

As well, the booklet for viewing is in GIF format (pictures not text) and so we can't copy and paste parts we want to discuss and the booklet for download is in some Balarama font or something that is not standard with Windows or browsers.

 

 

 

I am not amused.

 

 

while Çrî Guru is directly God, at the same time he is dear

to God, kintu prabhor ya˙ priya eva tasya. Çrî Guru is directly

Hari, but as we look more closely with eyes of love, we

find that he or she embodies a particular relationship with

K®ß√a. As sådhana is perfected, bhåva manifests and with it

eyes to see Çrî Guru in terms of his or her love for K®ß√a.

[stonehearted]

It's not fair to say I don't want you to read the book. It's available for free in two formats: html and pdf. You can copy and paste the text, but we do have a problem with the characters with diacritical marks. The font it was set in is one even I don't have (it's not Balarama or any of the VedaBase fonts, which work well with Windows). Here's what I have to do: I paste the text I copy into Word, then I take the time to go through and replace the illegible characters. It's a little tedious, but what else can I do? I'm not going to fault the devotees who designed the site; they worked for free. Someone else even had to pay for the site. And, because several devotees have already asked me about a printed version, rest assured that when I get some money I'll get it printed up. But then I'll have to sell it for a couple of bucks. If you like, I'll get a copy in Word or rtf format, go through and strip out the diacritics, and send it to you. Just let me know.

[Sonic Yogi]

Maharaja writes:

 

 

Our guru is the very

embodiment of a particular spiritual sentiment with a corresponding

form, and realizing that form has much to do

with realizing our own svarüpa.

Can that be shown with shastric support?

Or, is this just an opinion?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

It's not fair to say I don't want you to read the book. It's available for free in two formats: html and pdf. You can copy and paste the text, but we do have a problem with the characters with diacritical marks. The font it was set in is one even I don't have (it's not Balarama or any of the VedaBase fonts, which work well with Windows). Here's what I have to do: I paste the text I copy into Word, then I take the time to go through and replace the illegible characters. It's a little tedious, but what else can I do? I'm not going to fault the devotees who designed the site; they worked for free. Someone else even had to pay for the site. And, because several devotees have already asked me about a printed version, rest assured that when I get some money I'll get it printed up. But then I'll have to sell it for a couple of bucks. If you like, I'll get a copy in Word or rtf format, go through and strip out the diacritics, and send it to you. Just let me know.

 

I already figured that out.

That is how pasted that quote from the booklet.

 

I do the same thing in Vedabase because pasting in Wordpad immediatly removes the coded words and renders them standard.

 

But, I am not going to go through that much work every time I want to post a portion to bring under discussion.

 

As far as being useful for internet discussion, the format of the book was just wrong.

 

At least in the Vedabase they make it easy.

All you have to do is copy and paste to Wordpad, then copy that and paste it on the forum reply.

 

Your book makes it all way too much work.