New booklet about Srila Prabhupada

[andy108]

 

...and they will choose according to their inner nature. gHari proposed that it's "like another Crow and Tal Fruit debate," and here is the exact instance where he is proven correct. At what point did the jiva fall? At what point did choice come into play if we already have an internal swarupa [in seed form]? Here is where the topics become one, or at least interrelated. And if you look closely you will see that it deeply intertwined with who is guru, and who can become guru or even a sannyasi or brahmana?

 

This is a good point. I point this simultaneous snafu out in the thread I just created about rebirth and rasa.

 

Sonic has posted very pointed evidence on this very page regarding one side of the equation.

 

He has not denied the other side. Most of the devotees posting on this thread have been wholesale in denial of the side Sonic so eloquently points out.

 

Inconceivable, yet we can look at both sides of the truth of the issue and catch a glimpse and taste some nectar.

 

If you just want to be "right" about something, there are plenty of mundane universities who will give you a phd and professorship on some mundane subject matter to fulfill one's desire for exclusive mundand fame adoration and distinction.

 

Babhru's essay has the potential to stimulate expansive realization, yet as all things it also can be used by fanatics who will interpret it to take a stance and bludgeon others with it.

 

And so it goes.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

disagreeing and insinuating tantric sahajiya are different things all together.

 

I was not insinuating at all in the least that T Swami is moving towards such a thing.

 

That was not my intentions.

 

Besides that, the tantric sahajiyas and the siddha-pranali are two different things.

 

I insinuated that Maharaja is moving towards somewhat of a siddha-pranali conception.

That should not be confused with the tantric sahajiyas who have sex with women playing roles of Radha and Krsna.

 

The siddha-pranali of the orthodox school are very rigid in principles and nothing to be lumped in with tantric sahajiyas.

 

Many of the "orthodox" siddha-pranali types are very strict and rigid in their sadhana and regulative principles.

 

The tantric sahajiyas have sexual relations and try to connect that with some sort of raganuga bhakti concept.

 

I heard on another forum that Jagadananda had made the move in the tantric sahajiya direction and the orthodox boys thought he was off his rocker.

 

So, I don't agree with T Swami on everything, but I know he is nowhere near anything like a tantric sahajiya.

 

He is a man of strict principles that I admire greatly.

That doesn't mean that I understand the Gaudiya shastra the same way he does.

I have my own perspective free of camp, school, politics and position.

 

I am a lone wolf.

I have NO camp.

[stonehearted]

 

I insinuated that Maharaja is moving towards somewhat of a siddha-pranali conception.

I've spent enough time with him that I can assure you that he's clearly not. So I think you can relax on that count.

 

 

I am a lone wolf.

I have NO camp.

Yes, I remember that you live in a nice house.

[NitaiS]

 

That is the my point that seems to be lost on this crowd.....

 

Oh please do not pretend like you have had a cohesive argument this whole time, mud already posted one of the times when you directly contradicted yourself on what evidence you were looking for in this matter.

 

 

We choose a guru from a rasa we aspire for and take the seed from him out of choice.

 

Again, read the book. There are clearly examples in our history where this is not the case.

 

Earlier you said we choose the Svarupa and that is what makes it love. No. Krsna chooses what service he wants from us, and the love is shifting from having ourselves as the object to service, to having him as the object of service, on his terms. Service is according to necessity of the served. Krsna wants each jiva to interact with him in a certain way and love is then putting aside our delusion about how we want to interact with him, and coming to him in that way. You have it backwards. Like Sridhara Maharaja said, "all risk", not "I will serve, but in X capacity".

 

adarsanan marma hatam karotu va

yatha tatha va vidadhatu lampato

mat-prana-nathas tu sa eva naparah

 

this means however he wants service, by tormenting me , hiding from me, etc. I love him and therefore I will serve in any capacity. Divine slavery, you don't choose if you till the fields or do the laundry, and that is fine because there is no higher and lower. You do not get tired of hearding cows with God.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I've spent enough time with him that I can assure you that he's clearly not. So I think you can relax on that count.

 

 

Yes, I remember that you live in a nice house.

 

Nice house?

 

It is just a glorified shack.

It is a little wooden house up on cement blocks.

 

I payed $30,000.00 cash for it about 9 years ago.

 

It is not so nice.

It is very simple.

 

Yet, I like the simplicity and certainly nobody can claim I am living in the lap of luxury.

 

But, I like my little shack in Florida.

It's paid for and the taxes are low.

 

For a man who lives on the poverty line that is about as good as it gets.

 

(sorry for the diversion from topic)

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Oh please do not pretend like you have had a cohesive argument this whole time, mud already posted one of the times when you directly contradicted yourself on what evidence you were looking for in this matter.

 

 

 

Again, read the book. There are clearly examples in our history where this is not the case.

 

Earlier you said we choose the Svarupa and that is what makes it love. No. Krsna chooses what service he wants from us, and the love is shifting from having ourselves as the object to service, to having him as the object of service, on his terms. Service is according to necessity of the served. Krsna wants each jiva to interact with him in a certain way and love is then putting aside our delusion about how we want to interact with him, and coming to him in that way. You have it backwards. Like Sridhara Maharaja said, "all risk", not "I will serve, but in X capacity".

 

adarsanan marma hatam karotu va

yatha tatha va vidadhatu lampato

mat-prana-nathas tu sa eva naparah

 

this means however he wants service, by tormenting me , hiding from me, etc. I love him and therefore I will serve in any capacity. Divine slavery, you don't choose if you till the fields or do the laundry, and that is fine because there is no higher and lower. You do not get tired of hearding cows with God.

 

After I posted authoritative reference from Gaudiya shastra, you come back with some lame theory about no choice and divine slavery?

 

Wow, you are really taking a shot in the dark.

 

I hope to God you aren't any leading devotee preaching this kind of stuff to innocent newcomers.

[NitaiS]

 

I am a lone wolf.

I have NO camp.

 

I am sorry to hear that, and yes this is clear from your siddhanta.

[NitaiS]

 

According to this statement in NOD ch.4, even liberated souls in Vaikuntha can develop affection for Krsna and and get promoted to Krsnaloka.

 

 

So, considering this, I don't know if I can agree with Narayana Maharaja on his version as Begger posted above.

 

Here we have a liberated soul in Vaikuntha with a body like Lord Narayana or Laksmi Devi, some of whom attained that position from material existence by the mercy of a guru in the sampradaya that worships Lord Narayana, then after attaining liberation and service to Narayana laters can attain to love of Krsna and be PROMOTED to Krsnaloka.

 

So, nitya-siddhas can also improve their position in love of God if they are so inclined.

 

Our rasa with Krsna is chosen by us.

It is not appointed by some inborn nature.

 

 

 

 

 

It is not inborn but it is chosen.

That is the shastric version.

 

It wouldn't be LOVE if we didn't have a say in which way we want to love Krsna.

If it was inborn, then we would have no real choice in which way to love Krsna and that would then NOT be love.

 

It would be appointed and not chosen.

 

 

No my friends, we choose our rasa with Krishna.

It is not appointed or innate.

 

The only thing that is innate is that we are constitutionally made as to be servants of Krsna in what ever capacity we CHOOSE.

'

 

From Bengali dictionary:

 

nija= a own (<d>নিজ গৃহ</d>). <d>নিজ নিজ</d> respective. <d>নিজ গুণে</d> adv. by virtue of one's own qualities or virtues. <d>নিজ দোষে</d> adv. by one's own fault. <d>নিজ মূর্তি ধারন করা</d> v. to assume one's real form or self.

 

abhista=a desired, wished for, longed for, cherished; aimed at, intended. ☐ n. a desired object; an objective; an inten tion, a purpose. <d>̃পূরণ</d> n. gratification or fulfilment of one's desire; attain ment of one's objective, the accom plishment of (one's) aims. <d>̃</d> a. that which gratifies or fulfils. <d></d> n. same as

 

The other 4 uses of samihitam in Prabhupada's books other than the one you cited are as follows:

samīhitam — his purpose;

samīhitam — activities, plan;

samīhitam — desire;

samīhitam — which has been created (by You)

 

So we can see "nija samihitam" is not concretely "ones own choice".

 

Note the translation of the same verse in BRS:

 

Remembering the Våndävana form of Kåñëa and

His dear associates who have inclinations for service similar to

one’s own, absorbing oneself in hearing topics related to them,

one should always live in Vraja.

 

-No mention of choice there.

 

Visvanath's commentary:

"...who have the same

type of desires (for serving Kåñëa) as oneself (nija-saméhitam)"

 

This does not say you choose, it can totally be read to support what Sukhada said, we follow the ragatmikas according to bhava that arises in us by mercy, not by choosing whatever rasa appeals to our ego.

<d></d>

[NitaiS]

If we choose a guru that corresponds to the sentiment we want, how do we explain instances when people are initiated before even understanding the theory of Rasa, or having any specific inclination, even in an intellectual sense? Or the fact that here we are in 2009 discussing Srila Prabhupada's rasa, and you are telling me that 40 some years ago those disciples came to Prabhupada because they wanted to be manjaris (as you claim he is)? So that is to say if they had had a samskara for another bhava they would have not taken initiation from him? Come on!

[NitaiS]

 

In essence this is true.

Please explain how the spiritual bliss of the cowherds and vatsalya bhaktas is static. From the point of view of tattva, some distinctions can be drawn, but it is also tattva that they are all eternally blissful and ever-fresh relationships with Krsna. But to suggest that until the dasya-siddha gets 20 more premas(the unit with which we will now measure divine love of god) he will not be qualified for sakhya. And once the sakha goes beyond ____premas, he will be forced into a higher prema-bracket on account of his accrued premas. This helps the prema police keep the spiritual world nice and orderly.

 

What about Balarama, Nanda, Yasoda, and so many others, why has their spiritual progress been halted?

[Narasingh]

NitaiS,

Its not that their spiritual progress has been halted, it is that they are in a mutually fully satisfied position. Take Gopa Kumar for instance. He became fully satisfied with his position. When one reaches the stages of prema, Krsna is fully pleased with them, and reciprocates with His devotees in such a way as to ensure their complete satisfaction. But it is true and accepted by Gaudiya Philosophy that Rasaraj is completed only by Mahabhava and that somehow or other, all are serving under Her Grace. Srimati Radharani is the fullest extent. Shrila Shridhara Maharaj has asserted that Srimati Radharani is such and that all other camps are serving according to Her Desire under Yogamaya.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I am sorry to hear that, and yes this is clear from your siddhanta.

 

What is even more sad is that you guys lumped up in camps, politics, guru bias, guru wars, guru mania and position seeking are so lame on siddhanta and deeper understandings of spiritual reality.

 

This is what politics and party spirit does to a man.

It makes him philosophically challenged.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Oh please do not pretend like you have had a cohesive argument this whole time,

 

I don't pretend anything.

Right or wrong I speak my mind.

 

That is the beauty of being a freelance realist, you don't get blunted by party politics, position seeking, kissing butt or guru wars.

 

You can think for yourself and because you don't want any position in anyone's camp you can speak your mind freely.

 

I am a little ad hoc in my ways, but that is just because I am so fluid and flexible that realization comes to me rather easily and naturally.

 

See, I am not out to get a position in anyone's club.

Never have been,

Never will be.

[NitaiS]

 

NitaiS,

Its not that their spiritual progress has been halted, it is that they are in a mutually fully satisfied position. Take Gopa Kumar for instance. He became fully satisfied with his position. When one reaches the stages of prema, Krsna is fully pleased with them, and reciprocates with His devotees in such a way as to ensure their complete satisfaction. But it is true and accepted by Gaudiya Philosophy that Rasaraj is completed only by Mahabhava and that somehow or other, all are serving under Her Grace. Srimati Radharani is the fullest extent. Shrila Shridhara Maharaj has asserted that Srimati Radharani is such and that all other camps are serving according to Her Desire under Yogamaya.

 

Ok, I can agree with that, bu Sonic's idea is one wherein sakha (for example) is not fully satisfied and thus continues on to manjari, and then to sakhi, (and for some reason stops there)

[Narasingh]

NitaiS, I have a difficult time with that as well. I'm pretty sure it is not supported by sastra. Although madhurya rasa is "ontologically" more in depth, neither Gopis in madhurya rasa nor Gopas in sakhya rasa can have the level of fulfillment in Krsna's life as Srimati Radharani. Take Candravali for instance. She is considered to be the next major principle Gopi, the ultimate anti-party and (for lack of better words) still "falls short". Vrndavan revolves around Vrndavaneshvari.

Thus, while Gopas have some level of "shortcoming" in Krsna's ultimate satisfaction, the same rings true for Gopis. However, it is these "shortcomings" which are the endearment to Sri Sri Radha-Govinda. All in all the eternal residents of Vrndavan are part and parcel of Sri Sri Radha Govinda and serve to augment their Lilas. Their activities serve to increase the Love between the Divine Couple. From this standpoint, everything is perfect!

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Ok, I can agree with that, bu Sonic's idea is one wherein sakha (for example) is not fully satisfied and thus continues on to manjari, and then to sakhi, (and for some reason stops there)

My theory is that there is complete freedom in bhakti-rasa.

 

If, like Uddhava, one sees a higher kind of devotion than his own and aspires to attain to that higher platform of sacrifice and surrender, then he has that option.

I don't believe that one is eternally locked into a lesser level of love of Krsna when higher levels are there.

 

If a cowherd boy realizes that the love of the gopis is superior, or Uddhava realized that the gopis love Krsna more perfectly than him, then why should there be an eternal barrier to them moving up to a higher rasa?

 

There is higher and lower from an objective point of view.

That is the version we get in the Gaudiya shastra.

 

If any bhakta objectively sees that the gopis are on a higher platform of surrender than him, then what is to stop him from ascending to the higher level?

 

Is it all one?

Is santa rasa really as good as madhurya-rasa?

Is dasya-rasa as good as madhurya-rasa?

Maybe in the eyes of the santa-bhakta, but not in the eyes of an objective thinker.

 

So, there can be no block to advancing in devotional service.

That is my position.

 

Objectively speaking the Gaudiya shastra teaches that the gopis have the highest kind of love and surrender.

 

If you want to surrender on a lower platform Krsna will accept that, but that does not mean that you have reached the highest point of surrender.

 

The jiva souls are prakriti, feminine energy in nature.

They all have the capacity to attain to that feminine position in relationship to Krsna.

Anything less is not complete surrender.

But, some surrender is better than none and can still afford one eternal life with Krsna.

[Narasingh]

 

Is it all one?

Is santa rasa really as good as madhurya-rasa?

Is dasya-rasa as good as madhurya-rasa?

Maybe in the eyes of the santa-bhakta, but not in the eyes of an objective thinker.

Your last sentence here explains it all, and I think you will find agreement across the board here.

[NitaiS]

 

I don't believe that one is eternally locked into a lesser level of love of Krsna when higher levels are there.

 

 

"locked into" implies dissatisfaction. This is total mundane thinking. Yes from the objective view their is higher and lower, but not from rasa-vichara, and what you are doing is saying that the siddha at some point may snap out of rasa vichara and realize they have not got the best thing. Brahman is rasa; Krsna. Krsna is non different from his abode, form, associates etc. Thus the whole of Goloka is rasa, period. Tatastha vichara has become completely eclipsed there, unlike Dvarka, Mathura, Ayodyha, Vaikuntha...

 

Such a thing simply never arises. this is like fallen jiva-vada thinking. At some point the perfect sakha becomes dissatisfied and envious and falls down again to the material realm/ or in your case/ decides they would like to try on a different sthayi-bhava. Sukhada defeated you already, better than I can, but you will acknowledge no such things.

[NitaiS]

 

What is even more sad is that you guys lumped up in camps, politics, guru bias, guru wars, guru mania and position seeking are so lame on siddhanta and deeper understandings of spiritual reality.

 

This is what politics and party spirit does to a man.

It makes him philosophically challenged.

The two biggest plagues of the global Gaudiya community:

 

1.Those who think their guru and/or group is the only bonafide one

 

2. Those who overreact to the above sector and declare there is no longer any guru or group worthy of surrender, or gurus and groups are inherently flawed, but they lack the personal level of realization to have sadhu sanga via the granthas. By default the mind then becomes the guru.

 

Essentially this latter group has, in the absence of guides whom they previously had faith in, succumb to the hankerings of the ego to be in charge. Having been thus freed from the oppression of all sorts of sanga (good and not-so good alike) they are free to fight for any conception that blows into their head, and are subject to no reprimand from higher authorities. Sounds like a pretty good place for a sadhaka.

 

The link between the 2 plagues is pratistha. "I am with the best" and "I am the best".

[Sonic Yogi]

 

"locked into" implies dissatisfaction.

 

No, it doesn't.

It implies objectivity and intelligence.

 

Mahaprabhu explained the concept of gradation in rasa.

If anyone should know about the gradation in rasa it would be Mahaprabhu and it is he who said that the madhurya-rasa is the sweetest.

 

If someone wants less sweetness then they can have less sweetness in love.

[stonehearted]

Ramananda Raya told Lord Chaitanya,

kintu yanra yei rasa, sei sarvottama

tata-stha hana vicarile, ache tara-tama

It is true that whatever relationship a particular devotee has with the Lord is the best for him; still, when we study all the different methods from a neutral position, we can understand that there are higher and lower degrees of love.

[Narasingh]

 

Ramananda Raya told Lord Chaitanya,

kintu yanra yei rasa, sei sarvottama

tata-stha hana vicarile, ache tara-tama

It is true that whatever relationship a particular devotee has with the Lord is the best for him; still, when we study all the different methods from a neutral position, we can understand that there are higher and lower degrees of love.

 

Well, I guess that pretty much sums it up. Mahaprabhu is saying....well is there anything I need to add? Sonic Yogi, I think the last time I quoted you, you pretty much said the same thing.

 

The next question is... If one were to propose that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya rasa, is that a bad, or undesirable thing? Is that not sensitive to Guru, Sadhu and Sashtra? If Srila Prabhupada openly allowed his disciples to offer praise to him as a cowherd boy, and obviously derived pleasure from it, wouldn't it be feasible to allow his disciples to continue doing so?

[NitaiS]

 

Yes, it comes down to who is qualified to be guru. Or at least amongst gurus who is senior and who is junior. Is there anyone more senior than the "living" authorities that you are approaching? Yep, the guru thing, the rtvik thing comes full circle. You don't think that anyone has more realization? Are you ready for this? Ready or not, hear it comes!

Here it is: Qualified senior gurus have spoken:

 

 

I am a cowherd boy

 

That is indicative

of sakhya-rasa. From this we can conclude that he

is in sakhya-rasa, and he has entered into those pastimes.

 

Purî Mahåråja

immediately exclaimed, “Sakhya-rasa!”

I believe every person who has contributed to this thread considers one, two, or all three of these divine personalities as qualified gurus. I don't think there could be any more senior authority than these three (unless Bhaktisiddhanta himself said what Srila Prabhupada's sthayi-bhava is)

[Narasingh]

This is one of the first documentaries of Srila Prabhupada's mission. Pay attention to the way the members speak at around 9:30+ on the counter. I have to wonder what may or may not be veiled. I was looking for this for awhile. I'd like to hear Babhru Prabhu's response to this:

 

 

If Srila Prabhupada's first mission members were already speaking like this, wouldn't this be the most indicitive of his mood?

 

 

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[Narasingh]

It was obviously instilled in these devotee's understanding that they are actually feminine, that they are Gopi, or that their ultimate goal of existence is to become Gopi.