New booklet about Srila Prabhupada

[Narasingh]

What kind of Bhakti do we strive for? It is:

 

 

sa vai pumsam paro dharmo

yato bhaktir adhoksaje

ahaituky apratihata

yenatma samprasidati

[sB 1.2.6]

This ahaituky is the most important function. I don't remember where I've seen it but "want what They want" stands true. When Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta said "If you get money, print books" many personalities who were there thought it was a general statement, however A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada considered it directly to him.

 

The satisfaction from bhakti is bhakti. Bhakti begets more bhakti. Not position, wealth etc. If we look at the attaining of svarup to be something to acquire we are sure to be lost. It is a subtle nuance which stands to be reckoned with. We must look for the bestowing of bhakti from the higher realm and we will find ourselves fulfilled. This is what I've learned.

 

 

 

 

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

At least temporarily he has showed like that. What he has expressed there in that journey there, it is almost clear that he liked that sort of lila best, but it may be, it might have been suppressed purposely; it also cannot be denied, maybe. That is one thing. There may be such a possibility, and he has given, he has said that Radharani was his gurudeva. His gurudeva was Radharani, but he himself was thinking that perhaps madhurya rasa should not be distributed in the first installment. That might have been his view.

I take it like this, that it was Srila B.V. Prabhupada's decision not to distribute madhurya rasa in the first installment and Srila Sridhar Maharaja does not want to disturb those persons in installment one who are not ready for installment two. Yet it is the very vani of Srila Sridhar Maharaja that for Srila Prabhupada's disciples is installment two. So he is treading lightly and being carelful and at the same time dropping the hint to the others that - maybe, just maybe your are correct and that if his gurudeva is Radharani then of course, he must be in madhurya rasa. This is how I heard the first time in 1982 and that is how I hear it today. Therefore all manifestations of sakhya during Srila Prabhupada's manifest lila were either coming through as a manifestation of his saktyavesa of Nityananada Prabhu or were as Srila Sridhar Maharaja stated, something that manifesting during the conscious suppresion of madhurya rasa [since the adi-rasa contains all rasa]. This being said, for me this is really just an intellectual exercise and I hope against hope that one day I will develop the desire to serve and know Srila Prabhupada as he is in nitya lila, otherwise all is for naught, srama eva hi kevalam.

[gHari]

 

[..]you ae free to think whatever you like.

I didn't need your permission, but thank you for the gesture.

 

What would make you think that I form my opinions from syllogisms? Have you not understood the Bhagavad-gita?

 

Your mistaken impression that you must control my mind is simply ego and arrogance. This aggressive 'debate' style is for fanatics with some vested interest. The discussion approach of the booklet is much more palatable for your objective targeted audience. This tenacious dog 'debate' nonsense is simply distasteful.

 

Why is your crew so intent on converting the world to this view, at all costs? Is it that crucial?

[andy108]

 

What about the story of Gopa-Kumar.

I find it fascinating that contemporary Gaudiya Vaishnavism almost never counts Vaikuntha, Narayan's abode as having much bearing. However, the fact that there are eternal parshads in Vaikuntha coupled with the fact that Gopa-Kumar passed through Vaikuntha on his way to sakhya bhava lila with Krsna, should indicate that svarupa is potentially mutable. Also that there are kundas in Vrndavan dham capabaple of bestowing gopi svarup...

 

It would be better to say that while a svarup may be right for one, another may be changed if it supports Lila.

 

According to those like Sukhada the conclusion can only be...

 

There is one Goloka Vrndavana. There is Krsna and Radha. There are a few expanding concentric circles of confidential friends and their younger servants who are X in number.

 

Meanwhile, in Jagat after Jagat, Sri Krsna Caitanya and Prabhu Nityananda are sending their Rupa and his confidential servants to awakening an infinite number of sleeping Jivas to their siddha-swarupa.

 

These fortunate Jivas purify through sadhana and awaken to their already transcendentally pre-existing and pre-set relationship with Krsna.

 

So the result is that untold millions of Jivas are then all merging into one of a few scores of associates.

 

Then those associates are... falling back into delusory maya in order to go through vaidhi and then raganuga sadhana and awaken to their pre-existing but forgotton eternal relationship.

 

And then they fall back into maya. And they are you and me perhaps, waiting to have it revealed to us that we are actually manjaris.

 

I wonder how long we get to serve as manjaris before we forget the supreme ecstasy and make a beeline for the next boat across the Varaja River for some steak and fries.

 

Sign me up.

[Narasingh]

sravanam, kirtanam, vishnu smaranam, pada sevanam, archanam, vandanam, dasyam, sakhyam, atma-nivedanam.

 

These are the 9 processes of Bhakti. Krsna accepts the use of intelligence for His service. The service is see Babhru Prabhu doing is to question the idea that it is unthinkable to have a Gaudiya Vaishnava acharya in sakhya bhava. Babhru shows in his book that Srila Prabhupada welcomed his disciples seeing him in that manner, and since it has become (en-vogue?) to thrash this idea of Prabhupada being in sakhya bhava, I think he felt obligated to counter with the assertion of the possibility. I think this question is meritous, and whether or not I, personally, believe Srila Prabhupada is sakha, still doesn't invalidate his assertion.

 

Let me know, Babhru Prabhu, if I have misinterpreted you.

 

I think it would be valuable for the devotees to be able to see everything which Srila Sridhara Maharaj had to say on this issue in a chronological order along with the questions of the devotees asked of him. Seeing as how it seems even Sridhara Maharaj's views are arguable.

[Beggar]

 

 

I think it would be valuable for the devotees to be able to see everything which Srila Sridhara Maharaj had to say on this issue in a chronological order along with the questions of the devotees asked of him...

Yes, I'm glad you see chronological order of the discussions as being important because it has been alleged that this quote:

 

At least temporarily he has showed like that. What he has expressed there in that journey there, it is almost clear that he liked that sort of lila best, but it may be, it might have been suppressed purposely; it also cannot be denied, maybe. That is one thing. There may be such a possibility, and he has given, he has said that Radharani was his gurudeva. His gurudeva was Radharani, but he himself was thinking that perhaps madhurya rasa should not be distributed in the first installment. That might have been his view.

took place as a reaction to certain criticisms coming from the GBC of the time and a few others. I don't believe that is the order. I could be wrong but I could swear that he said this just after discussing the possibility of sakhya rasa for Srila Prabhupada and the evidence for it, essentially the first time the topic was discussed extensively.

[suchandra]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

........but he himself was thinking that perhaps madhurya rasa should not be distributed in the first installment. That might have been his view.

I'm strongly convinced that Prabhupada preached at the beginning in a different temper. Many lectures in 66 - 69 are like effervescent and very joyful. This changed abruptly around 1970.

 

His mood while lecturing became more grave, earnest and yes, concerned. Somehow he must have felt that his worldwide movement could quickly go down the drain. Many leading disciples left and again indulged in the very same sinful activities.

 

Not that he openly spoke about his movement might go to hell in a handbasket, but he wasnt really happy about the management. In this condition to see that his disciples were struggling hard to follow the brahminical standard, how could he lecture about confidential rasas?

 

But just this very atittude to properly address and encourage a neophyte audience and at the same time not to become known as sahajia, this balancing act, walking on a tightrope, he is now blamed that he cannot have been established in the highest rasa?

 

At the same time, he was already criticized strongly by many caste brahmanas in the Holy Dhamas about the way how he implanted Vaishnavism in the Western society. So in sum, there must have been tremendous pressure upon Prabhupada how to handle all these external impediments. And not to present himself like someone who lost contact with reality.

 

Obviously main problem of his disciples was getting free from sexual attraction, so many sannyasis fell down. How someone can possibly lecture about madhurya rasa to such an audience? Well, yes sahajiyas are doing that. So Prabhupada is now blamed for not speaking about Krishna's pastimes with the gopis to his Western disciples who even couldnt remain celibate when having accepted sannyasa.

 

Instead of analyzing the condition of this audience Prabhupada was lecturing to, people quickly conclude, no, he was not in the highest rasa. Very neophyte conclusion.

[stonehearted]

 

sravanam, kirtanam, vishnu smaranam, pada sevanam, archanam, vandanam, dasyam, sakhyam, atma-nivedanam.

 

These are the 9 processes of Bhakti. Krsna accepts the use of intelligence for His service. The service is see Babhru Prabhu doing is to question the idea that it is unthinkable to have a Gaudiya Vaishnava acharya in sakhya bhava. Babhru shows in his book that Srila Prabhupada welcomed his disciples seeing him in that manner, and since it has become (en-vogue?) to thrash this idea of Prabhupada being in sakhya bhava, I think he felt obligated to counter with the assertion of the possibility.

I think that's a fair way to characterize part of the motivation. However, the main motivation comes from the weight of the evidence itself, much of which I see, as I've mentioned, as a trail of hints from Srila Prabhupada himself. I very much like, as does madhuvac, Srila Prabhupada's unambiguous "I am a cowherd boy." I also like the more subtle statement in Atlanta: "I very much like the cowherd boys. . . . I just want to go back to the spiritual world and eat kacauri and laddu with Krishna." I'd make that at least a close second place. And, as clearly as I want readers to see that I didn't write this to impose an idea on others, my argument implies an acceptance of that evidence as supportive at least suggestive of the conclusion that seems hard to rationalize away. (Not impossible, as we see here, but requiring real effort.) For some, this evidence goes beyond the suggestive to actually supporting what becomes apparent in the hearts of a good number of devotees, perhaps at least partly as a result of their long lives of service, surrender, and steady sadhana. (These are things that naturally open the heart, making it receptive to revelation from "above.") And good readers will have little doubt about my own conclusion.

 

 

I think it would be valuable for the devotees to be able to see everything which Srila Sridhara Maharaj had to say on this issue in a chronological order along with the questions of the devotees asked of him. Seeing as how it seems even Sridhara Maharaj's views are arguable.

 

Examined in context, you may find some room for ambiguity in his remarks, and I'm not sure chronology (necessarily giving greater weight to later statements than earlier ones) is necessarily the best way to analyze them. Ultimately, the topic is more subjective, and this is only the more objective part, the external part, as I have said, of the evidence. The more substantive evidence is harder, and much less appropriate, perhaps, to argue.

 

I suspect that we may have exhausted this thread's usefulness. I'm not sure where else we can take the discussion.

[Narasingh]

So, perhaps there is room, now, for a little revelation of the cowherd Gopas who are dedicated to Srimati Radharani

[stonehearted]

If you want to find out about the priyanarma sakhas, there are hints in Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu (and, of course, in The Nectar of Devotion). Maybe something in Radha-Krishna Gannodesa-dipika. You can also find more in Ujjvala-nilamani and other books. Perhaps in Sarartha-darshini (mine is almost 3,000 miles away, so I can't check right now). But that's for those who have the greed to know, based on their own spiritual development. As I mentioned earlier, this is not a topic suitable for tourists.

[stonehearted]

 

Are rupanugas also raganugas?

Some rupanugas may not be situated in raganuga bhakti proper, but the goal of their sadhana would certainly be movement in that direction.

 

 

I understand that raganugas are not necessarily rupanugas.

No; pusti-marga devotees may be raganugas, but they aren't rupanugas because they don't follow Srila Rupa Goswami.

[Sonic Yogi]

I just wanted to pop back up and say my apologies to Babhru, Tripurari Maharaja and all the others that I might have offended with my posts on this topic.

Please excuse my offenses.

I am just a lowly soul prone to argument.

 

I don't really have any personal objection to the theory that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa.

 

But, then again even Krishnadas Kaviraja was a little abrasive in some of his ways talking about kicking somone in the head or saying how happy he was that the non-devotees had no taste for Krsna katha.

 

So, being tough is not always a sign that someone is not in madhurya-rasa.

Srila Prabhupada was a very tough and strong minded person.

 

Certainly no wallflower timid speaker.

 

Anyway, apologies to all.

 

I don't object the the theory that Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa, but I guess I sort of do object to organized systematic propaganda of such.

 

Out of respect for Narayana Maharaja and his followers, Gaura Govinda Maharaja and his followers, Narasingha Maharaja and his followers and many ISKCON devotees and disciples, I think the media propaganda that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa is guaranteed to make a stink.

 

Maybe that was the whole idea from the get go?

 

I don't know.

 

I really feel bad if I think that I have offended any nice devotee like Babhru or Tripurari Maharaja or his disciples.

 

They have their own emotions and their own missions in life and it appears that establishing Srila Prabhupada in sakhya-rasa is part of that mission.

 

I do respect their feelings and I ask for forgiveness for my offenses.

 

It's a very unfortunate situation.

Feelings are getting hurt on both sides.

 

It is always sad when something new comes up to further divide and disparage unity of the KC movement.

 

What to do?

 

People are getting feelings hurt one way or the other.

So, there is struggle and strife from all camps to defend the honor and integrity of their Guru Maharaja.

 

It is really just sad that the ecstacy of Prabhupada has become such a divisive issue between sincere devotees from all sides.

 

I guess there is a purpose behind it.

What the master plan is I certainly don't know.

 

Somehow we have to try and find some good in all this bickering and arguing about the rasa of Srila Prabhupada.

 

What that good is, I guess is something we all have to find in our own heart.

 

My reason for this post was to apologize to all the nice devotees whom I offended on this topic.

 

I don't have a problem with the conclusions of any party, but when it becomes a public issue and public debate and causes ill feelings and arguing amongst devotees then it has gone awry.

 

I should get most all the blame for turning this sweet topic into a war or a debate.

I am very sorry.

But, I over reacted because I guess I just somehow don't like the idea of making international media propaganda about the topic and aggravating an already aggravated atmosphere within the KC movement.

 

I love all you devotees.

Devotees are very dear to me.

I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings.

[Beggar]

 

 

What that good is, I guess is something we all have to find in our own heart.

 

 

Find out in our own heart:

1. What is Srila Prabhupada's rasa with Krsna.

1.a. What is his eternal form in Krsna and Gaura lila?

1.b. What is our eternal form?

2. What is the origin of the jiva soul.

3. Whether our sthayi bhava is fixed or can be changed.

4. Whether Sri Guru is giving Krsna Consciousness or uncovering

that which is already within us.

5. Whether we are becoming detached from the material world and

attached to Krsna.

6. Whether or not we are attached to pratistha, position, or gradually

giving it up.

7. Whether or not we understand the goal of sadhana bhakti.

8. Whether or not we have overestimated our own position.

9. Whether or not we are offensive.

10. Whether or not we are really sincere.

 

Unfortunately for myself, I would rather argue about things that are a zillion miles from my own realization just because I think that I can understand them intellectually. So ditto, if I have offended anyone please forgive me.

Hare Krsna

[Sukhada]

Thank you, Sonic Yogi. It is nice to see that side of you.

 

My apologies as well to anyone I may I offended.

 

May we all redouble our efforts to engage in sastra-yukti!

[stonehearted]

Well, no one here has hurt my feelings. And I didn't write this to create friction. I did so because the evidence that came together is so ecstatic that it was hard not to share it. My intention is that devotees whose subjective experience of Srila Prabhupada is similar to my friends' and mine might feel encouraged. Fortunately, this has been the case, and those of us involved in this effort have received many comments to this effect.

 

I'm particularly encouraged by the sweet mood I see here in Sukhada, Beggar and Sonic. I'll follow your example and ask your pardon for any offense I have committed out of confidence. This may be a good note for us to close this thread. Thanks to all who responded to my announcement.