New booklet about Srila Prabhupada

[stonehearted]

 

Now, bear in mind that what I am about to say is not necessarily my opinion but something that I see will inevitably be raised in question of the book.

 

Some people will say that Babhru is just the front man for a campaign by Tripurari Maharaja to prove that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa and that for developing madhurya-rasa one will need siksha from a guru in the madhurya-rasa.

 

In this way, Tripurari Maharaja will attract ISKCON devotess away from ISKCON to his camp where they can get madhurya-rasa from Tripurari Maharaja who imbibed madhurya-rasa from his siksha guru Sridhar Maharaja.

 

They will also say that the reason behind posting the booklet on the forum was for the sake of making such propaganda and attracting devotees away from ISKCON to the madhurya-rasa camp of Tripurari Maharaja.

Where the heck is the rotflmao emoticon here? This is the wackiest, most off-base response I could imagine. Anyone who has read much of Tripurari Maharaja's writing can see how this would be the response on Opposite Day. And anyone who would infer anything like this would be dead wrong. I don't think there's more to say that's appropriate in public, except that they should go back and see if they can discern the tone in his remarks about sakhya bhava.

 

I'm almost glad you brought this up, because it would sure never have occurred to me!

[Sukhada]

 

Well, ok.

 

So, sooner or later what I am about to say will be said by somebody, so it might as well be me.

 

Now, bear in mind that what I am about to say is not necessarily my opinion but something that I see will inevitably be raised in question of the book.

 

Some people will say that Babhru is just the front man for a campaign by Tripurari Maharaja to prove that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa and that for developing madhurya-rasa one will need siksha from a guru in the madhurya-rasa.

 

In this way, Tripurari Maharaja will attract ISKCON devotess away from ISKCON to his camp where they can get madhurya-rasa from Tripurari Maharaja who imbibed madhurya-rasa from his siksha guru Sridhar Maharaja.

 

They will also say that the reason behind posting the booklet on the forum was for the sake of making such propaganda and attracting devotees away from ISKCON to the madhurya-rasa camp of Tripurari Maharaja.

 

 

Yep, leave it up to ol' Sonic Yogi's mind to come up with such critical thinking, though in fact this is not his own particular politics or heartfelt conclusion on the matter.

I wouldn't worry about that one. Other than Srila Prabhupada himself, I don't know anyone who is more attracted to sakhya-rasa than Tripurari Maharaja.

[stonehearted]

 

I'm not sure/ I may be lost in the land of double negatives. Perhaps, professor Babhru will give us a definitive answer. Wait a minute; how come I can't get the Beach Boy's Barbara Ann out of my head? Ba ba ba, ba ba Babhru...

GAAAAHHHH!!!!! That's just an indication of how contaminating my company is. When devotees meet or see most other devotees they hear songs by Bhaktivinoda Thakura, or Narottama das Thakura. When they see me, they think of some awful Beach Boys song. And that started the day after I was initiated. Balabhadra was the first to sing . . .

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

Bhai means brother, but guys often call each other Brother, or, in the US, Buddy.

 

Maybe some guys do that, but can you show any shastric reference of a cowherd boy aside from Balaram referring to Krsna as "brother".

 

You argument in support of your opinion is very weak on this matter unless you can show some proof from authentic shastra that Subal or Madhumangal etc. ever referred to Krishna as brother.

 

Unless you can, your position is not very strong on this point.

 

Whazup bra?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I wouldn't worry about that one. Other than Srila Prabhupada himself, I don't know anyone who is more attracted to sakhya-rasa than Tripurari Maharaja.

 

That was going to be my next remark.

 

From what I know of Tripurari Maharaja and his character, I would say that he would make a real good friend of that trickster Krishna.

 

But, that might just be external.

[Sukhada]

 

That was going to be my next remark.

 

From what I know of Tripurari Maharaja and his character, I would say that he would make a real good friend of that trickster Krishna.

 

But, that might just be external.

Yeah, I'd say so. His Deities at Madhuvana are Sri Sri Rama-Chalacikana (chala=trickster, cikana=beautiful).

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Where the heck is the rotflmao emoticon here? This is the wackiest, most off-base response I could imagine. Anyone who has read much of Tripurari Maharaja's writing can see how this would be the response on Opposite Day. And anyone who would infer anything like this would be dead wrong. I don't think there's more to say that's appropriate in public, except that they should go back and see if they can discern the tone in his remarks about sakhya bhava.

 

I'm almost glad you brought this up, because it would sure never have occurred to me!

 

Well, after all, isn't "Tripurari" a name for Lord Siva?

 

 

 

Looks like a cowboy to me.......

[Sukhada]

 

Despite some talk to the contrary, in my years in ISKCON there seemed to be almost a wholesale tendency towards madhurya-rasa by most all the disciples of Srila Prabhupada I ever knew, including some rough and tough guys that you would never imagine embracing the concept of madhurya-rasa with Krsna.

 

So, how is it that a guru in sakhya-rasa produced thousands of disciples aspiring for madhurya-rasa with Krsna?

 

That is the mystery to me that just is not answered with a conclusion of Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa with Krsna.

 

Even the most course and crude devotees guys I ever knew were internally aspiring towards madhurya-rasa with Krishna.

 

So, a guru in sakhya-rasa accomplished that?

I find it a bit incredible.

I don't know when you joined, but in the early days it was common knowledge that Srila Prabhupada was a cowherd boy, as you yourself have said. Search the Vyasa-puja offerings. As Babhru points out in the booklet, in contrast to the numerous offerings about Srila Prabhupada being a cowherd boy, there is not even one about him being a manjari. Interest in manjari-bhava has come from siksa-gurus outside of Iskcon, as has the idea that Srila Prabhupada himself is anything other than a cowherd boy. But any number of Prabhupada's disciples might be attracted to madhurya-rasa because his campaign was widespread recruiting for the sampradaya and thus he naturally preached about its conclusions including the objective fact that madhurya-rasa is the adi-rasa.

[stonehearted]

I don't know if I've mentioned this here before, but the devotees used to make cowboy shirts for Srila Prabhupada. We even had some in the old Honolulu brahmachari ashram in '70 and '71.

[Beggar]

 

I don't know when you joined, but in the early days it was common knowledge that Srila Prabhupada was a cowherd boy. Search the Vyasa-puja offerings. As Babhru points out in the booklet, in contrast to the numerous offerings about Srila Prabhupada being a cowherd boy, there is not even one about him being a manjari. Interest in manjari-bhava has come from siksa-gurus outside of Iskcon, as has the idea that Srila Prabhupada himself is anything other than a cowherd boy. But any number of Prabhupada's disciples might be attracted to madhurya rasa because his campaign was widespread recruiting for the sampradaya and thus he naturally preached about its conclusions including the objective fact that madhurya rasa is the adi rasa.

 

I remember considering even in the late seventies, "how is it that Srila Prabhuapda is a cowherd boy when it is obvious that he is coming in a line of madhurya devotees?" The apparent contradictory information is there is in his books, poems, letters and statements. I always thought that he was most likely a cowherd boy, but I couldn't help but wonder if that idea was definitive or not? It was what Srila Sridhar Maharaja said on the subject that turned me even more to the idea that there was some madhurya, parakiya bhava there. So even before I read anything by Srila Narayana Maharaja I was wondering why some followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja were so convinced that he had merely dittoed the idea that Srila Prabhupada was purely sakhya?

[stonehearted]

 

 

 

 

Looks like a cowboy to me.......

Me, too. I was actually avoiding making the same remark Sukhada did: even though I know devotees interested in sakhya-bhava, I don't know anyone--aside from Srila Prabhupada--whose interest is stronger than Tripurari Maharaja's. And you should see him with the cows!

[Beggar]

 

I don't know if I've mentioned this here before, but the devotees used to make cowboy shirts for Srila Prabhupada. We even had some in the old Honolulu brahmachari ashram in '70 and '71.

 

Anyway I'm sick of hearing about the Cowboys! As far as I am concerned they are no longer America's team. Jerry Jones is becoming like another Al Davis. I'm not a Steelers fan but they have won more Super Bowls than the Cowboys, so cease and desist with the Cowboys or I shall be compelled to order a Fatwa. And remember this thread is not closed until the Fat Lady sings!!! How about them Dolphins!!!

[andy108]

 

I remember considering even in the late seventies, "how is it that Srila Prabhuapda is a cowherd boy when it is obvious that he is coming in a line of madhurya devotees?" The apparent contradictory information is there is in his books, poems, letters and statements. I always thought that he was most likely a cowherd boy, but I couldn't help but wonder if that idea was definitive or not? It was what Srila Sridhar Maharaja said on the subject that turned me even more to the idea that there was some madhurya, parakiya bhava there. So even before I read anything by Srila Narayana Maharaja I was wondering why some followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja were so convinced that he had merely dittoed the idea that Srila Prabhupada was purely sakhya?

 

What about the possibility that as a cowherd boy in Goloka, he could appreciate from a distance, the mood and sentiments of those more directly and initmately involved in Madhurya seva arrangements. The first glimmers of appreciation for a richer deeper mood.

 

Then on Earth he is exposed to the large variety of confidential descriptions and confessions of the Gopis, sakhis, manjaris, in their writings, keeps their personal company(His Guru), sings their songs, and begins to be highly influenced and desirous of developing that mood, and by virtue he actually IS developing that mood, while engaged in his Iskcon preaching seva.

[stonehearted]

 

Anyway I'm sick of hearing about the Cowboys! As far as I am concerned they are no longer America's team. Jerry Jones is becoming like another Al Davis. I'm not a Steelers fan but they have won more Super Bowls than the Cowboys, so cease and desist with the Cowboys or I shall be compelled to order a Fatwa. And remember this thread is not closed until the Fat Lady sings!!! How about them Dolphins!!!

You callin' dolphins fat? You don't want to do that with surfers around here. That's right: surfing cowboys! I don't think you want to mess with us, beggar boy!

 

Actually, the UF Gators have done pretty darned well, especially with Tebow around. God, have you seen the Gainesville area? There's so much blue and orange you could throw up.

 

Anyway, back in cowboy loka . . .

[Beggar]

 

What about the possibility that as a cowherd boy in Goloka, he could appreciate from a distance, the mood and sentiments of those more directly and initmately involved in Madhurya seva arrangements. The first glimmers of appreciation for a richer deeper mood.

 

Then on Earth he is exposed to the large variety of confidential descriptions and confessions of the Gopis, sakhis, manjaris, in their writings, keeps their personal company(His Guru), sings their songs, and begins to be highly influenced and desirous of developing that mood, and by virtue he actually IS developing that mood, while engaged in his Iskcon preaching seva.

 

That seems like a good way to think about it, I guess. One point, certain sakhas also assist in making arraignments for the Divine Couple. After all they are the brothers of the Gopis.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Interest in manjari-bhava has come from siksa-gurus outside of Iskcon, as has the idea that Srila Prabhupada himself is anything other than a cowherd boy.

 

I don't know what ISKCON you are talking about, but it is not the ISKCON I was in or the ISKCON that most ISKCON gurus are in.

 

To say something like that just betrays how little you actually know about the ISKCON of the Prabhupada era and even the ISKCON of today.

 

I would have to say that what you have said is just totally false.

 

If that is what you think about ISKCON, then you must not have been a devotee of ISKCON for any period of time.

 

It is this kind of categorical misconception that is really going to cause a backlash against this booklet and the campaign to establish conclusively that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya-rasa.

 

Of course, as a shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Nityananda he was in sakhya-rasa.

 

Other than that, nobody really knows and even Sridhar Maharaja admitted that he did not know for sure.

[andy108]

 

That seems like a good way to think about it, I guess. One point, certain sakhas also assist in making arraignments for the Divine Couple. After all they are the brothers of the Gopis.

 

Yes, I assume that all involved in this discussion already understand that just as there are tinges of tama & raja guna in a brahmana, that rasas contain tinges of others, but we are speaking here of narrowing down the predominant, and I see evidence of a wholesale transition occuring from one to the other in the case of our Srila Prabhupada's internal development.

 

The sakhas who become gradually closer in proximity to the activities of the madhurya pastimes proper are getting their first tastes of things to come.

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

 

High talks, mad talks. And who are we? Nital Gaura Hari bol, Nitai Gaura Hari bol...

"Who are we", means, and who are we to discuss such things? And he was saying that. What about us?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja:

 

We must be careful not to disturb the higher quarter.

[Sonic Yogi]

Used to be that the "gopi bhava club" was the problem in ISKCON and now they are saying that the reason is that it should have been the "gopa bhava club" and Srila Prabhupada never would have intervened and closed the club down.

 

OK, I get the picture.

 

Let's all start a gopa bhava club................

[mud]

 

The paradox that I was speaking of was not that Srila Prabhupada does not want to serve under his Guru, but that if he truly wants to serve closely, then how is it that he is in a separate camp (yes, even priya-narma sakhas are one step distinguished from manjaris)?

In this discussion it seems like we are coming up with a pretty consistent contention of the idea that sakhya and madhurya don't mix, that there is a large enough distinction between the two that Prabhupada would not be in the "same camp" with his guru, etc.

 

What we do seem to be agreeing on is that Prabhupada expressed his affinity for sakhya bhava enough that it was almost "a given" to many young, inexperienced devotees. We agree that it was "a given" to very experienced sadhus, like Sridhar Maharaj who much more often than not and with much more emphasis than not gave his sakhya opinion of Prabhuapada. So, why don't we consider how sakhya could be harmonized with madhurya?

 

I personally feel that the priyanarma sakha bhava harmonizes many of these arguments about the conflict (not the right word) of two sentiments, sakhya and madhurya. If you haven't read the book, please do, because this is discussed there.

 

Regarding the "same camp as one's guru" idea, I don't see the distance in two of Krsna's devotees participating in the same lila, serving under the same yuthesvari though being in different forms; sakha and sakhi. At some point, this consideration of distance starts to become mundane thinking.

 

Regarding Prabhupada's ecstasy in singing Jaya Radha Madhava; a priyanarma sakha is also arranging for the union of Radha and Madhava, knows Krsna as the gopijana-vallabha, attends Krsna at Govardhan, sees Krsna (and himself) as yasoda-nandana, etc. just like any gopi would. This is not exclusively a madhurya song and can be seen with appreciation from any of the primary braja sentiments.

 

I don't see the conflict.

[Beggar]

 

 

Regarding Prabhupada's ecstasy in singing Jaya Radha Madhava; a priyanarma sakha is also arranging for the union of Radha and Madhava, knows Krsna as the gopijana-vallabha, attends Krsna at Govardhan, sees Krsna (and himself) as yasoda-nandana, etc. just like any gopi would. This is not exclusively a madhurya song and can be seen with appreciation from any of the primary braja sentiments.

 

I don't see the conflict.

Good answer, and I don't see a conflict. BTW are you related to Roger Mudd, who was a CBS News TV reporter from the '60s - early '90s?

[NitaiS]

 

 

After all, it does take a rather macho mindset to strike out on a global preaching mission. It would not be so much the mindset of an internally feminine nature.

 

Conquering the world is not the work of girls.

It's takes a strong male mentality to strike out on a mission to conquer the world.

 

This seems a little off. What about Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta? His external demeanor was far from that of a girl's, and he certainly nourished the desire of Bhaktivinoda(another manjari) to "conquer the world". My point being I don't think you can insinuate such things merely from the external demeanor. While Babhru has done that some in his book, the difference is that it is in consonace with so much other evidence, whereas Bhaktisiddhanta's "macho mindset" is not.

 

 

Despite some talk to the contrary, in my years in ISKCON there seemed to be almost a wholesale tendency towards madhurya-rasa by most all the disciples of Srila Prabhupada I ever knew, including some rough and tough guys that you would never imagine embracing the concept of madhurya-rasa with Krsna.

 

So, how is it that a guru in sakhya-rasa produced thousands of disciples aspiring for madhurya-rasa with Krsna?

 

That is the mystery to me that just is not answered with a conclusion of Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa with Krsna.

 

Even the most course and crude devotees guys I ever knew were internally aspiring towards madhurya-rasa with Krishna.

 

So, a guru in sakhya-rasa accomplished that?

I find it a bit incredible.

Proclaiming to embrace madhurya-rasa is one thing, actually aspiring for it is another. Such aspiration really begins at asakti in a specific way, and even in a general sense, I would think nistha would have to preface any such aspiration . I have my doubts that "thousands" of Srila Prabhupada's disciples have moved through anartha-nivrtti, it is not a cheap thing. Additionally, are all those "rough-and-tumble/course and crude" men you referred to still steadily engaged in bhakti, and furthermore, cultivating some of the higher levels? Some may be, but my sneaking suspicion is many are not, and therefore to use them as evidence is a faulty tactic. Could it be that so many are "aspiring" for madhurya because it is sometimes asserted rather loudly that it is the "best/only" way? In such a case, a devotee's affinity for madhurya is more just an affinity for pratishta (to be in the "highest" sector).

 

All in all it seems like one can certainly poke (pin)holes in Babhru Prabhu's book, but where is a book of the same caliber establishing anything else? I have yet to see one (although I would be interested). I have my doubts there would be enough evidence to compile a book that points in any other direction.

 

As far as the ability of a sakhya-rasa guru to accomplish what Srila Prabhupada did (assuming there are thousands of budding bhava-bhaktas as you indicated) Babhru has quite nicely dealt with that. Srila Prabhupada brought us all in contact with all other Gaudiyas as well, so any attainment there is still a testament to his glory, not to say he is not capable of personally guiding disciples of varying sentiments.

[andy108]

 

Used to be that the "gopi bhava club" was the problem in ISKCON and now they are saying that the reason is that it should have been the "gopa bhava club" and Srila Prabhupada never would have intervened and closed the club down.

 

OK, I get the picture.

 

Let's all start a gopa bhava club................

 

That was clever and gave me a chuckle.

 

Clever chuckles aside, I think the Person who is the Object of this discussion would be most impressed and pleased with us if we formed a Vaidhi Sadhana Bhakti Club.

 

To even further respect and please him, we could name it Iskcon. Then we could model the activities we engage in after the instructions he gave for being in such a club.

 

After all, if He was who we are concluding He was, AND directly empowered by Sri Nityananda Prabhu to dictate HIS personal instruction to us all, perhaps the fact that we are having this discussion online today, yet tomorrow will return to being sudras for some materialistic karmi and his goals, speaks to both our deficit and the solution for obtaining more mercy and purifying our tendency to "disturb the higher quarter", while spinning in circles down here in Maya's realm.

[Narasingh]

 

I`d rather bow and give my respects to a devotee who cleans the toilet bowls everyday inside the temple of Sri Damodara than one who wants to be treated as if he were God himself.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Prabhupada wants to be treated as if he were God himself. It was the humility and dedication to his Guru's and Krsna's words which has endeared him to so many. He is that "devotee who cleans the toilet bowls". And you, yourself said, "I'd rather bow and give my respects to a devotee."

 

Your bowing is all that anyone else is doing right now on this thread. That is all. They are just giving their respects to a devotee who has dedicated his existence to Sri Hari, Guru, and Vaishnava.

[Narasingh]

 

In this discussion it seems like we are coming up with a pretty consistent contention of the idea that sakhya and madhurya don't mix, that there is a large enough distinction between the two that Prabhupada would not be in the "same camp" with his guru, etc.

 

It is not that they don't mix. For me this has never been a question. Mixing is different than being. Sugar and Milk make wonderful things, but Sugar is not Milk. This is the "paradox". Perhaps what we have just witnessed recently (being materially manifest in the line of Mahaprabhu, Shri Rupa, and Siddhanta Saraswati) is just that... the mixing of Sugar and Milk.