New booklet about Srila Prabhupada

[mud]

 

This pre-occupation with his personal rasa is for someone with too much time on his hands.

I thought the best use of time was in cultivating bhakti? Exploring the rasa of an acarya just seems like the best use of too much time. You're right, I should get back to all my mundane concerns...

 

But if you think that this is speculation or the business of neophytes, I trust you'll take your advice and not participate anymore? Or, you could join the gopa bhava club -

 

No, seriously. Prabhupada's warnings of jumping ahead of ourselves are hopefully a time limited instruction; I say hopefully because I think he expected us to advance to a point where we could one day discuss such things in the company of advanced sadhaka's for our spiritual enrichment.

[mud]

 

Beyond that, we know that he also wrote in his prayers to the lotus feet of Krsna that Radharani was his guru.

 

I guess you just can't imagine that to be any sort of madhurya-rasa sentiment?

I actually see it as a priyanarma sakha sentiment because this commentary on Prabhupada's prayer from Tripurari Swami makes so much sense to me:

 

Here Prabhupåda implies his connection

with Rådhå’s group and Lalitå-sakhî, in whose

service Nayana-mani mañjarî is situated. In effect

he says to Krsna, “My Gurudeva, who represents

Srî Rådhå, has now appeared as a great preacher in

Mahåprabhu’s sankîrtana movement.” Prabhupåda

tells Krsna that “Nayana-mani mañjarî has given me

an order that I must fulfill. However, I cannot do it

without your help. As I have pointed out earlier, it

will be good for you if you please Rådhå. This is my

advice to you. Therefore, if you give me the sakti to

fulfill her order, she will be pleased and you will attain

piety.”

It is included in the booklet we're discussing. You are reading the book???

[Sonic Yogi]

 

I actually see it as a priyanarma sakha sentiment. This commentary on Prabhupada's prayer from Tripurari Swami makes so much sense to me:

 

It is included in the booklet we're discussing. You are reading the book???

 

Actually, I have been painting my daughter Kamala Manjari's bedroom this weekend.

My son is Nitai Prasad (22), my oldest daughter is Rasika Kripamoya (20) and Kamala is my youngest daughter (15).

 

When I get time I will go through it, but I don't have time for a serious study at this moment.

When I can go through it with rapt attention I will.

But, I am not sure you really want me to.

 

I have a knack for finding holes in bulletproof theories.

[stonehearted]

Thanks for being honest, at last. I implore to do read the book, and we can discuss it after you've read it carefully. There's no Big Theory for you to shoot down. There's simply an accumulation of nectar, which you may appreciate or not. But until you've read this essay carefully, it's hard to take your comments seriously. Wouldn't you agree that arguing from ignorance is a losing proposition?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Wouldn't you agree that arguing from ignorance is a losing proposition?

 

That implies that your opinion is that anyone who doesn't read your book must be in ignorance.

 

I guess reading all the books of Prabhupada, Sridhar Maharaja, Jaiva Dharma, Brihat Bhagavatamritam, books of Kusakrata, Professor Kapoor etc. etc still renders me ignorant because I haven't read your book that presumes to expose to the world the inner heart of Srila Prabhupada?

 

Wow, so that is the new standard?

If we don't read your book we are in ignorance?

 

I guess I have to get with the program......

 

I am not trying to hurt your feelings.

I think you are a nice enough devotee.

 

But, the way you worded your last post opens you up for an overhand right.

[NitaiS]

 

But, I am not sure you really want me to.

 

I have a knack for finding holes in bulletproof theories.

Your sole pramana is an obscure statement that is vaguely relevant (at best!), AND you did not even read the book under discussion. Granted, I am new here, but twice I ahve seen you profess your intellectual prowess in defeating opposing logic and nonce(that is 0) I have seen you do such. Stubbornness is not victory.

 

 

We need to see him as either the functional form of Lord Nityananda or Srimati Radharani.

Functional like how you use a tool to accomplish a job and then put the tool down, and thus the specifics of the tool are irellevant, since it is just a stepping stone (to your direct seva to Radha-Krishna?)?

[stonehearted]

 

That implies that your opinion is that anyone who doesn't read your book must be in ignorance.

Ignorance of what the book says. You pretend to be arguing against what the book says without having read it. That's all I'm saying. The rest is just bluster. And yes, if you want to discuss the book, you need to get with the program and read it. If one of my students had come to class and argued that, for example, Neil Postman was full of it when he wrote Amusing Ourselves to Death, but he hadn't read the book, no one would have taken his argument seriously. So come back when you've read the booklet.

 

Jeez, I thought you had turned the troll gig over to andy. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. I would just like the comments to actually address the substance of the book, if you don't mind.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Ignorance of what the book says.

 

Well, Prabhupada's instructions were that we should read the books he wrote.

He never said anything about reading any book that some disciple has written about him to try and show the world the secret inner heart that Srila Prabhupada tried mightily to keep confidential.

 

Even if a disciple figures out the rasa of the guru, is it really the right thing to try and publish it all in a book and make a big uproar amongst all the disciples about it.

 

Surely you know that this book will be cause of much dissent, disagreement and even ill feelings amongst the disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have different opinions on what you say you have sorted out and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

Was there no merit to what Narasingha Maharaja said about taking this topic and making a public spectacle about it?

 

It might be OK to investigate for one's own curiousity, but is making a book and making a stink really the best way to treat the revelation?

[Beggar]

Maybe the cat's out of the bag because the subject has been now debated on this thread extensively by those who have either have not read the book or just skimmed over it. So I think that at this point perhaps the thread can be broken into two parts: 1) What is Srila Prabhupada's swarupa? and 2) what do you think about what is written in Babhrus' book?

As for part 1, I find myself open minded, so other opinions should be explored, such as the late Sripada Goura Govinda Maharaja's opinion as recounted by Bhagavat Prabhu who is now Bhagavat Maharaja:

 

Once we were having a discussion in the hut (in Bhubaneswar) with two or three other godbrothers and myself. One of the devotees mentioned that once someone had asked Prabhupada, "Are you a cowherd boy?" Prabhupada answered, "I don't know who I am but I like cowherd boys." Another time someone asked Prabhupada if he was the incarnation of Vyasadeva, because he wrote all those books. Again Prabhupada replied, "I do not know, but it sounds nice." Because we were not very advanced, Prabhupada did not revel this to us. In this way these two or three godbrothers and I were discussing this subject matter about who Prabhupada was in his original svarupa. At that time Gour Govinda Maharaj had gone across the hut to the other end to get a drink of water. When he finished drinking his water-he always used to drink water in a sitting position-he stood up turned, looked at us and said, "Prabhupada is not a cowherd boy! Prabhupada is a gopi!" At that time, I was looking right in his eyes. The way he said it and the way he looked, made me think, "He really knows."

[mud]

To me, this

Prabhupada answered, "I don't know who I am but I like cowherd boys.

carries more weight than this

 

At that time, I was looking right in his eyes. The way he said it and the way he looked, made me think, "He really knows."

One is another suggestion of Prabhupada towards sakhya, while exhibiting some humility and avoiding elaboration amongst diciples. The other is disciples making a claim and that suggestion being reinforced by sentiment. Nothing wrong with sentiment towards advanced sadhus, but I find Prabhupada's own suggestion more compelling.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

T Nothing wrong with sentiment towards advanced sadhus, but I find Prabhupada's own suggestion more compelling.

 

 

what was he supposed to say?

I don't like cowherd boys?

 

or

 

I like Gopis better?

 

I mean...... c'mon....!

[Narasingh]

 

what was he supposed to say?

I don't like cowherd boys?

 

or

 

I like Gopis better?

 

I mean...... c'mon....!

He could have said whatever he wanted. The fact that he said what he said is what this book is based on. I've just read through 1/2 of it. In the interest of a constructive discussion I would suggest reading it. One of my favorite parts of the book is : page 9

Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Jaiva Dharma shows that there is

room for subjectivity in regard to one’s vision of Shri Guru:

Vijaya-kumara and Vrajanatha saw their guru as representing

madhurya and sakhya-rasa, respectively. This apparent

discrepancy is due to the fact that while Sri Guru is a particular

jîva soul, the shakti of guru-tattva is simultaneously within

him and he can therefore represent any rasa. Thus although

disciples’ budding spiritual sentiments may color their perception

and allow for more than one vision of Srila Prabhupada,

ultimately he is who he is: he has one eternal rasa in

Krsna Lila.

Babhru Prabhu has initiated his posit on this firm foundation of subjectivity. After that, he moves on to show how Prabhupada may be reasonably seen in sakhya rasa.

[mud]

 

what was he supposed to say?

 

Someone asks Prabhupada directly if he is a cowherd boy... He could have said anything! He could have said NO! He could have said "that is a stupid question that you are not advanced enough to ask!" He could have said "no, I am a Rupanuga, which means all manjari's". I think you deserve the C'MON! Like mine is an unreasonable irrational reading of the conversation!? The fact that he answered the way he did is actually quite interesting AND in my estimation another indication of his "liking" of cowherd boys.

[Sonic Yogi]

CC Adi.1.46 purport by Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

In his prayers to the spiritual master, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas therefore worship Śrīla Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient literatures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and other unalloyed Vaiṣṇavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī or a manifested representation of Śrīla Nityānanda Prabhu.

 

Don't see any instruction here for seeing the spiritual master as a cowherd boy other than Balaram in the form of Lord Nityananda.

 

The vision is one of these two.

 

Either we see the spiritual master as a manifested representation of Lord Nityananda or one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani.

[NitaiS]

 

CC Adi.1.46 purport by Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

 

Don't see any instruction here for seeing the spiritual master as a cowherd boy other than Balaram in the form of Lord Nityananda.

 

The vision is one of these two.

 

Either we see the spiritual master as a manifested representation of Lord Nityananda or one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani.

 

what about "kintu prabhor ya priya eva tasya"?

 

This vision you keep pushing seems kind of irrelevant. They are different categories. In his acharya-lila the guru is seen as you have mentioned, but in the Vraja-lila he or she may be simply young boy imitating frogs on the bank of the Yamuna, or young girl cursing Krsna for his behavior... (And still one could easily argue how they could still be seen as manifestations of Baladeva and/or associates of Radha) Babhru's book is about the second category and how some knowledge of that can help motivate us to get there (i.e. serve the manifestation of Nitai/associate of Radha in their acharya lila). It seems very tastefully done, but I suppose one has to read it before they can agree...

 

We should see Krsna as svayam bhagavan, but if we want enter his Vraja lila, that will have to be eclipsed at some point. Should we not talk about that aspect of sambandha jnana until some high stage? That is the very heart of Gaudiya Vaisnavism.

[andy108]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by andy108

What about the possibility that as a cowherd boy in Goloka, he could appreciate from a distance, the mood and sentiments of those more directly and initmately involved in Madhurya seva arrangements. The first glimmers of appreciation for a richer deeper mood.

 

Then on Earth he is exposed to the large variety of confidential descriptions and confessions of the Gopis, sakhis, manjaris, in their writings, keeps their personal company(His Guru), sings their songs, and begins to be highly influenced and desirous of developing that mood, and by virtue he actually IS developing that mood, while engaged in his Iskcon preaching seva.

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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This is speculation of the worst sort, absolutely not in concert with guru, sadhu, and sastra.

 

Well excuse me for living, but I have seen worse speculation, and as far as being "absolutely" not in concert with Guru...

 

I understand that it is said that every devotee is happy with their swarupa-siddhi and that there is no difference spiritually.

 

 

Adi-lila 1.5 -- Mayapur, March 29, 1975

"In the bhakti platform there are different stages. Spiritually, there is no difference. One in dāsya-rasa and one in mādhurya-rasa, there is no difference. But a devotee likes to serve the Supreme Lord according to his inclination."

 

But simultaneously, there is some difference and progression.

 

 

Adi-lila 1.5 -- Mayapur, March 29, 1975

"between Kṛṣṇa and devotee, either in the śānta... Some devotees have become there land, water, tree, flower. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. Some devotees, they have become servants. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees, they have become cowherds boy, friendly. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees have become Kṛṣṇa's father, mother, uncle, elderly. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees, they have become gopīs, young girls, and love Kṛṣṇa, dance with Him rasa dance. "

 

In CC Madhya 19.228 we are told those devotees whose eternal swarupa is in santa rasa (ie. trees) attain dasya rasa and similarly, a friendly intimacy is added when they develop sakhya rasa.

 

 

Madhya 19.228

In the śānta-rasa one accepts Kṛṣṇa as the impersonal Param Brahma or the localized Paramātmā. This is based on the speculative knowledge of the jñānī. However, when this knowledge is further developed, one is convinced that Paramātmā, the Supreme Lord, is master and that the living entity is His eternal servant. One then attains the platform of dāsya-rasa. In dāsya-rasa the Lord is accepted with awe and veneration. However, although in the śānta-rasa there is no active service, in the dāsya-rasa active service is prominent. Thus in the dāsya-rasa, the qualities of śānta-rasa and service are predominantly visible. Similarly, when this same rasa is developed into fraternity (sakhya-rasa), a friendly intimacy is added. There is no awe or veneration in the sakhya-rasa.

 

We are told there are SPECIAL FLAVORS (experienced by the devotee) in friendship.

 

 

TLC 14

The flavor of servitorship increases to include affection, anger, fraternity and attachment. The flavor of friendship increases to include affection, anger, fraternity, attachment and devotion, There are also special flavors experienced in friendship with the Supreme Lord, and these are manifested by friends such as Subala, whose devotion increases up to the point of bhāva.

 

And it does not stop there....

 

 

Madhya 8.88

Translation

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"Complete attainment of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa is made possible by love of Godhead, specifically mādhurya-rasa, or conjugal love. Lord Kṛṣṇa is indeed captivated by this standard of love. This is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Purport

In conjugal love there are the qualities of neutrality, servitorship, fraternity and paternal affection, as well as conjugal love itself. The conclusion is that through conjugal love the Lord is completely satisfied. Conjugal love (mādhurya-rasa) is also known as śṛṅgāra-rasa. It is the conclusion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that in the complete combination of loving service to the Lord-namely in conjugal love-the Supreme Lord fully agrees to be under the control of the devotee.

 

 

So according to Sukhada, it is the WORST SPECULATION that there is some way for Krsna and Yoga Maya to arrange for a servant to experience complete attainment, and all that entails?

 

 

Madhya 8.92

"In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam [10.32.22] it is said that Lord Kṛṣṇa cannot proportionately reciprocate devotional service in the mādhurya-rasa; therefore He always remains a debtor to such devotees.

Madhya 8.94

Kṛṣṇa and His devotees become perfectly intimate in conjugal love of Godhead. In other mellows, the Lord and the devotees do not enjoy transcendental bliss as perfectly. The next verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.33.6) will illustrate this verse.

 

 

No way for Srila Prabhupada to become perfectly intimate, and enjoy transcendental bliss as perfectly?

 

 

Adi 4.50 Purport

Of the four kinds of reciprocation of loving service-dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya and mādhurya-mādhurya is considered the fullest.But the conjugal relationship is further divided into two varieties, namely svakīya and parakīya. Svakīya is the relationship with Kṛṣṇa as a formally married husband, and parakīya is the relationship with Kṛṣṇa as a paramour. Expert analysts have decided that the transcendental ecstasy of the parakīya mellow is better because it is more enthusiastic. This phase of conjugal love is found in those who have surrendered to the Lord in intense love, knowing well that such illicit love with a paramour is not morally approved in society. The risks involved in such love of Godhead make this emotion superior to the relationship in which such risk is not involved....

It is further stated here in Caitanya-caritāmṛta that the parakīya sentiment exists only in that transcendental realm and nowhere else. This highest form of ecstasy can exist only in the most confidential part of the transcendental world, but by the causeless mercy of the Lord we can have a peep into that invisible Vraja.

 

 

No way to acheive superior loving emotions, to share the highest form of ecstasy by giving Krsna the highest form of ecstasy by surrendering in a more intense love?

 

The Cowherd Boys in Sakhya Rasa cannot get a peep?

 

 

Adi 4.50 purport

This verse (Bhāg. 10.47.60) was spoken by Uddhava when he visited Śrī Vṛndāvana to deliver a message from Kṛṣṇa to the gopīs. Uddhava remained in Vṛndāvana to observe the movements of the gopīs there. When he saw the ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa in separation manifested by the gopīs, he appreciated their supreme love and therefore expressed his feelings in this verse. He admitted that the fortune of the gopīs could not be compared even to the fortune of the goddess of fortune, to say nothing of the beautiful girls in the heavenly planets.

 

The next verses speak for themselves.

 

 

Madhya 8,84

" 'Increasing love is experienced in various tastes, one above another. But that love which has the highest taste in the gradual succession of desires manifests itself in the form of conjugal love.'

Madhya 8.86

"As the qualities increase, so the taste also increases in each and every mellow. Therefore the qualities found in śānta-rasa, dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa and vātsalya-rasa are all manifest in conjugal love [mādhurya-rasa].

 

 

 

BTG (English version of the 'Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu' by Sri Rupa Goswami)

Edited by Tridandi Goswami Abhay Charan Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Therefore the servitor living being, if at all he wants to relish any one of the above Rasas, he must reciprocate the same with Sri Krishna who is the unlimited ocean or source of all Rasas. One can derive any amount of Rasa of a particular type from that resources simply by such reciprocation with Krishna. "Gopal Tapani" directs therefore conclusively that Krishna is the Supreme Fountain Head of all the Rasas which are also confirmed by the Sruti or the Vedas. One should therefore always meditate upon Krishna to derive a particular type of Rasa according to one's choice and under proper direction of the spiritual master.

 

I still may be wrong, but not unreasonably speculating by a long shot.

 

Krnsa is capable of expanding himself, his dhama, his energies, to accomodate any possibility last I checked.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

 

Well, Prabhupada's instructions were that we should read the books he wrote. He never said anything about reading any book that some disciple has written about him to try and show the world the secret inner heart that Srila Prabhupada tried mightily to keep confidential.

If you ever read the book, you'll see the extent to which Srila Prabhupada expressed his sentiment explicitly. If you don't read the book, please don't expect me to engage with you. You seem to be in cranky troll mode right now, and there's no point in further discussion, except to feed your ego.

 

 

Surely you know that this book will be cause of much dissent, disagreement and even ill feelings amongst the disciples of Srila Prabhupada who have different opinions on what you say you have sorted out and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

 

Those who have read the booklet know that I never, ever claim to have proven anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. But you'll never know that, because reading this may be too big a challenge for you to handle. If you don't read it, it's no skin off my nose.

 

 

Was there no merit to what Narasingha Maharaja said about taking this topic and making a public spectacle about it?

 

He has clearly changed his mind, as evidenced in the note Sukhada posted earlier, and in this excerpt from a note to me:

 

I like the direction this is taking. I especially like the idea of a book being published because the scope is huge.

This could be the best book to see the light of day [dispelling the darkness that grips the Vaishnava world] since a very long time. Congratulations on a job very well done!

 

 

It might be OK to investigate for one's own curiousity, but is making a book and making a stink really the best way to treat the revelation?

Who's making the stink here? He who smelt it . . .

 

Check with me when you've read the booklet.

[suchandra]

 

Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Adi-lila 1.5 -- Mayapur, March 29, 1975

"In the bhakti platform there are different stages. Spiritually, there is no difference. One in dāsya-rasa and one in mādhurya-rasa, there is no difference. But a devotee likes to serve the Supreme Lord according to his inclination." </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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But simultaneously, there is some difference and progression.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Adi-lila 1.5 -- Mayapur, March 29, 1975

"between Kṛṣṇa and devotee, either in the śānta... Some devotees have become there land, water, tree, flower. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. Some devotees, they have become servants. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees, they have become cowherds boy, friendly. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees have become Kṛṣṇa's father, mother, uncle, elderly. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees, they have become gopīs, young girls, and love Kṛṣṇa, dance with Him rasa dance. "

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> In CC Madhya 19.228 we are told those devotees whose eternal swarupa is in santa rasa (ie. trees) attain dasya rasa and similarly, a friendly intimacy is added when they develop sakhya rasa.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Madhya 19.228

In the śānta-rasa one accepts Kṛṣṇa as the impersonal Param Brahma or the localized Paramātmā. This is based on the speculative knowledge of the jñānī. However, when this knowledge is further developed, one is convinced that Paramātmā, the Supreme Lord, is master and that the living entity is His eternal servant. One then attains the platform of dāsya-rasa. In dāsya-rasa the Lord is accepted with awe and veneration. However, although in the śānta-rasa there is no active service, in the dāsya-rasa active service is prominent. Thus in the dāsya-rasa, the qualities of śānta-rasa and service are predominantly visible. Similarly, when this same rasa is developed into fraternity (sakhya-rasa), a friendly intimacy is added. There is no awe or veneration in the sakhya-rasa. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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We are told there are SPECIAL FLAVORS (experienced by the devotee) in friendship.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> TLC 14

The flavor of servitorship increases to include affection, anger, fraternity and attachment. The flavor of friendship increases to include affection, anger, fraternity, attachment and devotion, There are also special flavors experienced in friendship with the Supreme Lord, and these are manifested by friends such as Subala, whose devotion increases up to the point of bhāva. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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And it does not stop there....

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Madhya 8.88

Translation

"Complete attainment of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa is made possible by love of Godhead, specifically mādhurya-rasa, or conjugal love. Lord Kṛṣṇa is indeed captivated by this standard of love. This is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Purport

In conjugal love there are the qualities of neutrality, servitorship, fraternity and paternal affection, as well as conjugal love itself. The conclusion is that through conjugal love the Lord is completely satisfied. Conjugal love (mādhurya-rasa) is also known as śṛṅgāra-rasa. It is the conclusion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that in the complete combination of loving service to the Lord-namely in conjugal love-the Supreme Lord fully agrees to be under the control of the devotee.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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So according to Sukhada, it is the WORST SPECULATION that there is some way for Krsna and Yoga Maya to arrange for a servant to experience complete attainment, and all that entails?

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Madhya 8.92

"In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam [10.32.22] it is said that Lord Kṛṣṇa cannot proportionately reciprocate devotional service in the mādhurya-rasa; therefore He always remains a debtor to such devotees.

Madhya 8.94

Kṛṣṇa and His devotees become perfectly intimate in conjugal love of Godhead. In other mellows, the Lord and the devotees do not enjoy transcendental bliss as perfectly. The next verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.33.6) will illustrate this verse.

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No way for Srila Prabhupada to become perfectly intimate, and enjoy transcendental bliss as perfectly?

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Adi 4.50 Purport

Of the four kinds of reciprocation of loving service-dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya and mādhurya-mādhurya is considered the fullest.But the conjugal relationship is further divided into two varieties, namely svakīya and parakīya. Svakīya is the relationship with Kṛṣṇa as a formally married husband, and parakīya is the relationship with Kṛṣṇa as a paramour. Expert analysts have decided that the transcendental ecstasy of the parakīya mellow is better because it is more enthusiastic. This phase of conjugal love is found in those who have surrendered to the Lord in intense love, knowing well that such illicit love with a paramour is not morally approved in society. The risks involved in such love of Godhead make this emotion superior to the relationship in which such risk is not involved....

It is further stated here in Caitanya-caritāmṛta that the parakīya sentiment exists only in that transcendental realm and nowhere else. This highest form of ecstasy can exist only in the most confidential part of the transcendental world, but by the causeless mercy of the Lord we can have a peep into that invisible Vraja.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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No way to acheive superior loving emotions, to share the highest form of ecstasy by giving Krsna the highest form of ecstasy by surrendering in a more intense love?

 

The Cowherd Boys in Sakhya Rasa cannot get a peep?

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Adi 4.50 purport

This verse (Bhāg. 10.47.60) was spoken by Uddhava when he visited Śrī Vṛndāvana to deliver a message from Kṛṣṇa to the gopīs. Uddhava remained in Vṛndāvana to observe the movements of the gopīs there. When he saw the ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa in separation manifested by the gopīs, he appreciated their supreme love and therefore expressed his feelings in this verse. He admitted that the fortune of the gopīs could not be compared even to the fortune of the goddess of fortune, to say nothing of the beautiful girls in the heavenly planets. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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The next verses speak for themselves.

 

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" 'Increasing love is experienced in various tastes, one above another. But that love which has the highest taste in the gradual succession of desires manifests itself in the form of conjugal love.'

Madhya 8.86

"As the qualities increase, so the taste also increases in each and every mellow. Therefore the qualities found in śānta-rasa, dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa and vātsalya-rasa are all manifest in conjugal love [mādhurya-rasa].

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> BTG (English version of the 'Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu' by Sri Rupa Goswami)

Edited by Tridandi Goswami Abhay Charan Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Therefore the servitor living being, if at all he wants to relish any one of the above Rasas, he must reciprocate the same with Sri Krishna who is the unlimited ocean or source of all Rasas. One can derive any amount of Rasa of a particular type from that resources simply by such reciprocation with Krishna. "Gopal Tapani" directs therefore conclusively that Krishna is the Supreme Fountain Head of all the Rasas which are also confirmed by the Sruti or the Vedas. One should therefore always meditate upon Krishna to derive a particular type of Rasa according to one's choice and under proper direction of the spiritual master. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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Thanks Andy108, great post - this is the writing of someone who's really connected with the parampara! Go on with the good work!

[Beggar]

I have just read half the essay or booklet. It all seems true to me and the evidence is very strong. But what evidence? Some would say, "the evidence that Srila Prabhupada is a cowherd boy, sakhya rasa." But that would be to objectify Krsna and his pure devotees. I believe that the evidence shows that Srila Prabhupada showed himself externally (or internally if he desired) as a cowherd boy to many of his disciples. Yet I firmly believe that he appeared internally in his swarupa as a very young gopi (manjari) before Sripad Gour Govinda Maharaja. Both are correct. When Sripad Gour Govinda Maharaja said, "Prabhupada is not a cowherd boy! Prabhupada is a gopi!", he was expressing his inner experience and mood. He could not admit that Prabhupada could be a cowherd boy, because for him that would break his mood; it would just be too painful.

I remember somewhere Srila Prabhupada spoke or wrote, "the entire Krsna phenomena appears within the spiritual master". So in that way a high guru is like Krsna because for the disciple the entire Krsna phenomena appears within him. So just like the different persons at the Kamsa's sacrificial arena saw Krsna in so many different ways, that is how different persons and devotees saw Srila Prabhupada. Very advanced disciples will begin to get some real indication of their actual sthayi bhava and move in that direction. For us, from the section of ordinary disciples does it really matter exactly how we see guru (how he shows himself) while we are still attached to the mood of the purusa bhava or enjoyer of the material world? It is certainly nothing to quarrel over for that would be an aparadha and only become a road block on the path of Krsna realization. And if there is one thing that Srila Sridhar Maharaja would object to, I am sure it would be that, for he would see it as an example of "creating a disturbance within the higher quarter."

[Narasingh]

The Gaudiya Conception culminates with the feeling that Srimati Radharani is the only true happiness for Krsna, conjugally speaking. It is not only accepted, but appreciated. Krsna (Rasaraj) is complete with Radha (Mahabhava). Thus, in the interest of the complete spiritual pleasure of the Divine Couple, the devotee, following in the line of Svarupa Damodara, Rupa Goswami, Bhaktivinode, Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada, does not entertain the idea of anything other than arrangements for the pleasure of the Divine Couple. As the book shows, each camp, at least sakhya and manjari have their particular associates who are interested in the welfare of the Divine Couple. Thus, a sakha can assist in arrangements as well as a manjari. It looks as if you are suggesting that somehow Prabhupada has not been glorified because sakhya rasa doesn't afford intimate conjugal relations with Krsna.

Quote:

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Adi-lila 1.5 -- Mayapur, March 29, 1975

"In the bhakti platform there are different stages. Spiritually, there is no difference. One in dāsya-rasa and one in mādhurya-rasa, there is no difference. But a devotee likes to serve the Supreme Lord according to his inclination." </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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But simultaneously, there is some difference and progression.

 

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"between Kṛṣṇa and devotee, either in the śānta... Some devotees have become there land, water, tree, flower. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. Some devotees, they have become servants. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees, they have become cowherds boy, friendly. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees have become Kṛṣṇa's father, mother, uncle, elderly. They are attached to Kṛṣṇa. And some devotees, they have become gopīs, young girls, and love Kṛṣṇa, dance with Him rasa dance. "

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> In CC Madhya 19.228 we are told those devotees whose eternal swarupa is in santa rasa (ie. trees) attain dasya rasa and similarly, a friendly intimacy is added when they develop sakhya rasa.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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In the śānta-rasa one accepts Kṛṣṇa as the impersonal Param Brahma or the localized Paramātmā. This is based on the speculative knowledge of the jñānī. However, when this knowledge is further developed, one is convinced that Paramātmā, the Supreme Lord, is master and that the living entity is His eternal servant. One then attains the platform of dāsya-rasa. In dāsya-rasa the Lord is accepted with awe and veneration. However, although in the śānta-rasa there is no active service, in the dāsya-rasa active service is prominent. Thus in the dāsya-rasa, the qualities of śānta-rasa and service are predominantly visible. Similarly, when this same rasa is developed into fraternity (sakhya-rasa), a friendly intimacy is added. There is no awe or veneration in the sakhya-rasa. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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We are told there are SPECIAL FLAVORS (experienced by the devotee) in friendship.

 

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The flavor of servitorship increases to include affection, anger, fraternity and attachment. The flavor of friendship increases to include affection, anger, fraternity, attachment and devotion, There are also special flavors experienced in friendship with the Supreme Lord, and these are manifested by friends such as Subala, whose devotion increases up to the point of bhāva. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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And it does not stop there....

 

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Translation

"Complete attainment of the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa is made possible by love of Godhead, specifically mādhurya-rasa, or conjugal love. Lord Kṛṣṇa is indeed captivated by this standard of love. This is stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Purport

In conjugal love there are the qualities of neutrality, servitorship, fraternity and paternal affection, as well as conjugal love itself. The conclusion is that through conjugal love the Lord is completely satisfied. Conjugal love (mādhurya-rasa) is also known as śṛṅgāra-rasa. It is the conclusion of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that in the complete combination of loving service to the Lord-namely in conjugal love-the Supreme Lord fully agrees to be under the control of the devotee.

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So according to Sukhada, it is the WORST SPECULATION that there is some way for Krsna and Yoga Maya to arrange for a servant to experience complete attainment, and all that entails?

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Madhya 8.92

"In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam [10.32.22] it is said that Lord Kṛṣṇa cannot proportionately reciprocate devotional service in the mādhurya-rasa; therefore He always remains a debtor to such devotees.

Madhya 8.94

Kṛṣṇa and His devotees become perfectly intimate in conjugal love of Godhead. In other mellows, the Lord and the devotees do not enjoy transcendental bliss as perfectly. The next verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.33.6) will illustrate this verse.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

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No way for Srila Prabhupada to become perfectly intimate, and enjoy transcendental bliss as perfectly?

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Adi 4.50 Purport

Of the four kinds of reciprocation of loving service-dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya and mādhurya-mādhurya is considered the fullest.But the conjugal relationship is further divided into two varieties, namely svakīya and parakīya. Svakīya is the relationship with Kṛṣṇa as a formally married husband, and parakīya is the relationship with Kṛṣṇa as a paramour. Expert analysts have decided that the transcendental ecstasy of the parakīya mellow is better because it is more enthusiastic. This phase of conjugal love is found in those who have surrendered to the Lord in intense love, knowing well that such illicit love with a paramour is not morally approved in society. The risks involved in such love of Godhead make this emotion superior to the relationship in which such risk is not involved....

It is further stated here in Caitanya-caritāmṛta that the parakīya sentiment exists only in that transcendental realm and nowhere else. This highest form of ecstasy can exist only in the most confidential part of the transcendental world, but by the causeless mercy of the Lord we can have a peep into that invisible Vraja.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

No way to acheive superior loving emotions, to share the highest form of ecstasy by giving Krsna the highest form of ecstasy by surrendering in a more intense love?

 

The Cowherd Boys in Sakhya Rasa cannot get a peep?

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Adi 4.50 purport

This verse (Bhāg. 10.47.60) was spoken by Uddhava when he visited Śrī Vṛndāvana to deliver a message from Kṛṣṇa to the gopīs. Uddhava remained in Vṛndāvana to observe the movements of the gopīs there. When he saw the ecstatic love for Kṛṣṇa in separation manifested by the gopīs, he appreciated their supreme love and therefore expressed his feelings in this verse. He admitted that the fortune of the gopīs could not be compared even to the fortune of the goddess of fortune, to say nothing of the beautiful girls in the heavenly planets. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

The next verses speak for themselves.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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" 'Increasing love is experienced in various tastes, one above another. But that love which has the highest taste in the gradual succession of desires manifests itself in the form of conjugal love.'

Madhya 8.86

"As the qualities increase, so the taste also increases in each and every mellow. Therefore the qualities found in śānta-rasa, dāsya-rasa, sakhya-rasa and vātsalya-rasa are all manifest in conjugal love [mādhurya-rasa].

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<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> BTG (English version of the 'Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu' by Sri Rupa Goswami)

Edited by Tridandi Goswami Abhay Charan Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Therefore the servitor living being, if at all he wants to relish any one of the above Rasas, he must reciprocate the same with Sri Krishna who is the unlimited ocean or source of all Rasas. One can derive any amount of Rasa of a particular type from that resources simply by such reciprocation with Krishna. "Gopal Tapani" directs therefore conclusively that Krishna is the Supreme Fountain Head of all the Rasas which are also confirmed by the Sruti or the Vedas. One should therefore always meditate upon Krishna to derive a particular type of Rasa according to one's choice and under proper direction of the spiritual master.

</td></tr><tr><td style="vertical-align: top;">

</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Sonic Yogi]

 

The Nectar of Instruction 11

 

kṛṣṇasyoccaiḥ praṇaya-vasatiḥ preyasībhyo 'pi rādhā

 

kuṇḍaḿ cāsyā munibhir abhitas tādṛg eva vyadhāyi

 

yat preṣṭhair apy alam asulabhaḿ kiḿ punar bhakti-bhājāḿ

 

tat premedaḿ sakṛd api saraḥ snātur āviṣkaroti

 

SYNONYMS

 

kṛṣṇasya — of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa; uccaiḥ — very highly; praṇaya-vasatiḥ — object of love; preyasībhyaḥ — out of the many lovable gopīs; api — certainly; rādhā — Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī; kuṇḍam — lake; ca — also; asyāḥ — of Her; munibhiḥ — by great sages; abhitaḥ — in all respects; tādṛk eva — similarly; vyadhāyi — is described; yat — which; preṣṭhaiḥ — by the most advanced devotees; api — even; alam — enough; asulabham — difficult to obtain; kim — what; punaḥ — again; bhakti-bhājām — for persons engaged in devotional service; tat — that; prema — love of Godhead; idam — this; sakṛt — once; api — even; saraḥ — lake; snātuḥ — of one who has bathed; āviṣkaroti — arouses.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Of the many objects of favored delight and of all the lovable damsels of Vrajabhūmi, Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is certainly the most treasured object of Kṛṣṇa's love. And, in every respect, Her divine kuṇḍa is described by great sages as similarly dear to Him. Undoubtedly Rādhā-kuṇḍa is very rarely attained even by the great devotees; therefore it is even more difficult for ordinary devotees to attain. If one simply bathes once within those holy waters, one's pure love of Kṛṣṇa is fully aroused.

 

PURPORT

 

Why is Rādhā-kuṇḍa so exalted? The lake is so exalted because it belongs to Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, who is the most beloved object of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Among all the gopīs, She is the most beloved. Similarly, Her lake, Śrī Rādhā-kuṇḍa, is also described by great sages as the lake that is as dear to Kṛṣṇa as Rādhā Herself. Indeed, Kṛṣṇa's love for Rādhā-kuṇḍa and Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī is the same in all respects. Rādhā-kuṇḍa is very rarely attained, even by great personalities fully engaged in devotional service, not to speak of ordinary devotees who are only engaged in the practice of vaidhī bhakti.

 

It is stated that a devotee will at once develop pure love of Kṛṣṇa in the wake of the gopīs if he once takes a bath in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī recommends that even if one cannot live permanently on the banks of Rādhā-kuṇḍa, he should at least take a bath in the lake as many times as possible. This is a most important item in the execution of devotional service. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura writes in this connection that Śrī Rādhā-kuṇḍa is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhīs) and confidential serving maids (mañjarīs) of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vṛndāvana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Rādhā-kuṇḍa, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Śrī Rādhā and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In this connection Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura writes that even great sages and great devotees like Nārada and Sanaka do not get an opportunity to come to Rādhā-kuṇḍa to take their baths. What, then, to speak of ordinary devotees? If, by great fortune, one gets an opportunity to come to Rādhā-kuṇḍa and bathe even once, he can develop his transcendental love for Kṛṣṇa, exactly as the gopīs did. It is also recommended that one should live on the banks of Rādhā-kuṇḍa and should be absorbed in the loving service of the Lord. One should bathe there regularly and give up all material conceptions, taking shelter of Śrī Rādhā and Her assistant gopīs. If one is thus constantly engaged during his lifetime, after giving up the body he will return back to Godhead to serve Śrī Rādhā in the same way as he contemplated during his life on the banks of Rādhā-kuṇḍa. The conclusion is that to live on the banks of the Rādhā-kuṇḍa and to bathe there daily constitute the highest perfection of devotional service. It is a difficult position to attain, even for great sages and devotees like Nārada. Thus there is no limit to the glory of Śrī Rādhā-kuṇḍa. By serving Rādhā-kuṇḍa, one can get an opportunity to become an assistant of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī under the eternal guidance of the gopīs.

 

If I remember correctly, Srila Prabhupada bathed in Radha kunda on a number of occasions.

 

So, I don't know of anywhere that it says that cowherd boys are bathing in Radha kunda.

 

Any cowherd boy that bathes in Radha kunda will immediately be transformed into a gopi.

 

So, any of you cowherd boys out there that aren't ready to be transformed into a gopi had better stay away from Radha kunda.

 

The only way Srila Prabhupada could be a cowherd boy is if this verse of Upadesamrita is just false.

[Sonic Yogi]

See guys, Radha kunda is a magical, mystical, wonderful pool that has a unique power of transforming anyone who bathes in those waters into a gopi.

 

Anyone who bathes in that pool is surely in pursuit of gopi bhava or otherwise they wouldn't dare bathe in those sacred waters.

[mud]

 

See guys, Radha kunda is a magical, mystical, wonderful pool that has a unique power of transforming anyone who bathes in those waters into a gopi.

 

Anyone who bathes in that pool is surely in pursuit of gopi bhava or otherwise they wouldn't dare bathe in those sacred waters.

I agree with you entirely that Radha kunda is a wonderful, powerful, spiritual place of pilgrimage. I don't think you have a good argument here though. Prabhupada is doing as any acarya would do by glorifying the holy place of pilgrimage, and also pointing to the apex of spiritual rasa. But as a sadhaka and acarya it appears more to me that he is setting example, demonstrating the processes of bhakti, etc. That is kind of like saying that he published and commented on Bhagavad Gita, and therefore it is his favorite book. We don't know his internal preferences (bhava) from his speaking about tattva.

 

And I think it is safe to argue that this is how the instructions in Upadesamrta have come across. Everybody I know, including myself have bathed in Radha kunda because it was described as the holiest of holy places and that one would certainly attain prema by bathing there. As a sadhaka, I want that! As a sadhaka-acarya, Prabhupada is teaching that.

 

You have bathed in Radha-kunda, right? Did you immediately poof into a gopi? I went there with the hope that I would immediately poof into a prema-bhakta. Krsna makes us work a little harder than that.

 

But, in the nitya-lila side, yes - a cowherd would not bath in Radha's kunda. In fact, the asta-sakhas have their own kunda's surrounding Syama-kunda, just as the asta-sakhis have their's surrounding Radha-kunda.

 

Sorry, I just don't think you are finding the zinger that you are looking for. Give me a zinger like "I am a gopi" and I'll start to put that on the scale and weigh it as counter-evidence.

[Sonic Yogi]

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Sorry, I just don't think you are finding the zinger that you are looking for. Give me a zinger like "I am a gopi" and I'll start to put that on the scale and weigh it as counter-evidence.

 

I think the very act of bathing in Radha kunda was a subtle statement that "I am a gopi".

 

There are ways to prove a point other than the spoken world.

 

If you can't accept that then you are living in denial.

 

I am not looking for words from Srila Prabhupada but for signs.

Read the signs and there is no need for the words.