New booklet about Srila Prabhupada

[mud]

 

If one is thus constantly engaged during his lifetime, after giving up the body he will return back to Godhead to serve Śrī Rādhā in the same way as he contemplated during his life on the banks of Rādhā-kuṇḍa.

Besides the multitude of other signs (and words), here is another.

 

Note that Prabhupada spent his final days in Raman-reti where the cowherds play eternally, and that he desired to go to Govardhan where the priyanarma sakhas and the sakhi's attend to Radha and Krsna. He could have requested to go to Radha-kunda, no?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Prabhupada is doing as any acarya would do by glorifying the holy place of pilgrimage, and also pointing to the apex of spiritual rasa. But as a sadhaka and acarya it appears more to me that he is setting example, demonstrating the processes of bhakti, etc.

Whatever his reasons, that cannot reverse the effect of bathing in Radha kunda.

He was teaching by example that those who are in pursuit of madhurya-rasa will go bathe in Radha kunda.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Besides the multitude of other signs (and words), here is another.

 

Note that Prabhupada spent his final days in Raman-reti where the cowherds play eternally, and that he desired to go to Govardhan where the priyanarma sakhas and the sakhi's attend to Radha and Krsna. He could have requested to go to Radha-kunda, no?

Radha kunda is at the foot of Govardhan.

Surely, you know that.

Radha kunda is fed by the waterfalls coming off of Govardhan hill.

 

It's a very exotic tropical place, unlike what our mortal eyes see upon a trip to the area via a plane ticket and donkey cart.

[mud]

 

He was teaching by example that those who are in pursuit of madhurya-rasa will go bathe in Radha kunda.

 

Did you know you were in pursuit of madhurya-rasa when (if) you bathed there? I didn't! I knew that bhakti was hard, Sri Radha was most merciful, and hopefully I would get a drop of prema by taking a dip in her holy kunda. I wasn't advanced enough to consider my rasa. I think he was teaching to iskcon that "you need all the help you can get, go on pilgrimage". After all, it is the holiest of places.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Did you know you were in pursuit of madhurya-rasa when (if) you bathed there? I didn't!

 

That is why I went to Radha kunda.

I have been in pursuit of madhurya rasa since the very dawn of my Krsna consciousness experience.

 

I can't imagine anyone who would not want to taste the nectar from the lips of Sri Krsna.

 

It is beyond my comprehension that anyone who knows the glories of madhurya-rasa would settle for anything less.

[mud]

 

Radha kunda is at the foot of Govardhan.

What is your point? Prabhupada did not request at the end of his life to pass from the world at Radha-kunda, the "holiest" of holy's and the place of madhurya, etc. that you are suggesting he was internally cultivating. Why? For that internal pursuit he could have attained the ideal by leaving at Radha-kunda. Externally (for preaching) he could have made a major statement, something like taking it out of the "grip of immoral men". Imagine, a samadhi of Prabhupada at Radha-kunda and the dent that would have made by Sarasvati Thakur's lineage. But what do we have? Prabhupada's samadhi in Raman-reti, and the great Krsna-Balaram mandir which has successfully popularized that part of Vraja.

[mud]

 

It is beyond my comprehension that anyone who knows the glories of madhurya-rasa would settle for anything less.

But this is a statement of bhava (some kind).

 

Otherwise "less" is a mundane understanding. Every perfected soul will think their relationship with Krsna is perfect, because it IS perfect FOR THEM.

[madhuvac]

Actually Prabhupada never bathed at Radha Kunda, at least not from the time he manifested Isckon onward. He also discouraged his disciples from doing so. Instead he taught us to pay respect to Radha Kunda. The popular midnight bath at Radha Kund once a year was never part of Prabupada's Iskcon. Participation in this began after he left the world.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Prabhupada's samadhi in Raman-reti, and the great Krsna-Balaram mandir which has successfully popularized that part of Vraja.

 

But, as he made quite clear, his place of bhajan was at the Radha-Damodar temple behind the tomb of Rupa Goswami.

 

We don't need signs to figure out his place of bhajan.

We have written and spoken words to confirm that.

 

What he has spoken as his place of bhajan is more telling than where he left this world.

 

Prabhupada's mission was to accommodate people from all over the world of all different mentalities the chance to take up Krsna consciousness.

 

So, he showed some sakhya-rasa and built his Krsna-Balarama temple to accomodate the many different kinds of devotees that he created from all over the world.

He didn't want to create an exclusive cult of gopi-bhava because many souls will not be able to go up to that high a platform in just this one life.

So, he created a situation where sakhya-rasa seemed quite obvious so as not to drive away beginners who are not able to full embrace the full-fledged form of unconditional love of Krsna.

 

As for his own internal aspirations?

Bathing in Radha kunda pretty much says it all.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Actually Prabhupada never bathed at Radha Kunda, at least not from the time he manifested Isckon onward. He also discouraged his disciples from doing so.

That is another "Prabhupada said" that contradicts his instruction in Upadeshamrta.

Whenever a "Prabhupada said" contradicts what he wrote in his books it cannot but be another ISKCON myth.

 

It is stated that a devotee will at once develop pure love of Kṛṣṇa in the wake of the gopīs if he once takes a bath in Rādhā-kuṇḍa. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī recommends that even if one cannot live permanently on the banks of Rādhā-kuṇḍa, he should at least take a bath in the lake as many times as possible. This is a most important item in the execution of devotional service. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura writes in this connection that Śrī Rādhā-kuṇḍa is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhīs) and confidential serving maids (mañjarīs) of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vṛndāvana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Rādhā-kuṇḍa, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Śrī Rādhā and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. In this connection Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura writes that even great sages and great devotees like Nārada and Sanaka do not get an opportunity to come to Rādhā-kuṇḍa to take their baths. What, then, to speak of ordinary devotees? If, by great fortune, one gets an opportunity to come to Rādhā-kuṇḍa and bathe even once, he can develop his transcendental love for Kṛṣṇa, exactly as the gopīs did. It is also recommended that one should live on the banks of Rādhā-kuṇḍa and should be absorbed in the loving service of the Lord. One should bathe there regularly and give up all material conceptions, taking shelter of Śrī Rādhā and Her assistant gopīs. If one is thus constantly engaged during his lifetime, after giving up the body he will return back to Godhead to serve Śrī Rādhā in the same way as he contemplated during his life on the banks of Rādhā-kuṇḍa. The conclusion is that to live on the banks of the Rādhā-kuṇḍa and to bathe there daily constitute the highest perfection of devotional service. It is a difficult position to attain, even for great sages and devotees like Nārada. Thus there is no limit to the glory of Śrī Rādhā-kuṇḍa. By serving Rādhā-kuṇḍa, one can get an opportunity to become an assistant of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī under the eternal guidance of the gopīs.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Actually Prabhupada never bathed at Radha Kunda, at least not from the time he manifested Isckon onward. He also discouraged his disciples from doing so. Instead he taught us to pay respect to Radha Kunda. The popular midnight bath at Radha Kund once a year was never part of Prabupada's Iskcon. Participation in this began after he left the world.

 

Actually devotees used to swim there, some still do however most of the Prabhupada disciples I know, me included, stopped swimming there in 1978

 

 

He also discouraged his disciples from doing so. Instead he taught us to pay respect to Radha Kunda.

 

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Actually Prabhupada never bathed at Radha Kunda, at least not from the time he manifested Isckon onward. .

 

It doesn't matter "from ISKCON onward".

 

If he ever bathed at Radha kunda even before that the results will be the same.

 

Srila Prabhupada got his orders from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati while at Radha kunda.

 

Are you going to tell me that Bhaktisiddhanta took his disciples to Radha kunda and told them not to bathe in the waters?

 

Don't make me laugh.

[mud]

DUDE! (I'm sorry, Pra-dude)

Now I know that you are just trying to drive me crazy.

 

 

We don't need signs to figure out his place of bhajan.

We have written and spoken words to confirm that.

 

now check this out:

 

 

I am not looking for words from Srila Prabhupada but for signs.

Read the signs and there is no need for the words.

 

[madhuvac]

It is not a "Prabhupada said." It's a fact. He never bathed at Radha Kunda. You are ridiculous. Quoting a purport about the glories of Radha Kunda does not prove that he bathed there, especially when there are hundreds of devotees who were instructed by him on bathing at Radha Kunda during the early Mayapura Vrindavan festivals.

[Sonic Yogi]

Actually, I never "bathed" in Radha kunda.

The resident of the Kunda who took me around taught me to take a few drops of water on my head from the side.

 

I could never imagine "swimming", frolicking or taking a bath in Radha kunda.

 

I had no thought to jump in and do a backstroke in Radha kunda.

 

I know one devotee that got too playful there and broke both ankles jumping in like it was a a city swimming pool.

[madhuvac]

The Vrajamandala parikrama of BSST did not include bathing at Radha Kunda. There, I said it. According to Prabhupada it involved sober lectures that did not even discuss Radha Krsna lila to the extent the the local babajis wondered if the group was from a different sampradaya!

[Sonic Yogi]

 

It is not a "Prabhupada said." It's a fact. He never bathed at Radha Kunda. You are ridiculous. Quoting a purport about the glories of Radha Kunda does not prove that he bathed there, especially when there are hundreds of devotees who were instructed by him on bathing at Radha Kunda during the early Mayapura Vrindavan festivals.

I don't live on the recollections of old ISKCON devotees.

My bread and butter is the teachings from the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Prabhupada never told me I couldn't bathe in Radha Kunda.

 

In his book he told me that it should be done as much as possible.

 

I was in ISKCON for years and I don't remember anyone saying that Prabhupada forbade bathing in Radha kunda.

 

Most ISKCON people I know that ever went to the Vrindavan area did bathe or take water from the kunda on their heads.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

The Vrajamandala parikrama of BSST did not include bathing at Radha Kunda. There, I said it. According to Prabhupada it involved sober lectures that did not even discuss Radha Krsna lila to the extent the the local babajis wondered if the group was from a different sampradaya!

 

Actually, I only did what I was instructed to do by the young man from Radha kunda who took me around.

 

He didn't allow me to loiter, instructed me to take some water on my head and then encouraged me to leave rather quickly.

 

I did what I did with the permission and under the guidance of the Dhama basi.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

The Vrajamandala parikrama of BSST did not include bathing at Radha Kunda. There, I said it. According to Prabhupada it involved sober lectures that did not even discuss Radha Krsna lila to the extent the the local babajis wondered if the group was from a different sampradaya!

 

Excuse me, but I am rather hesitant to take such information from anonymous people on forums.

I would have to validate that with a reliable source, not an anonymous identity on a forum.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

It is not a "Prabhupada said." It's a fact. He never bathed at Radha Kunda. You are ridiculous. Quoting a purport about the glories of Radha Kunda does not prove that he bathed there, especially when there are hundreds of devotees who were instructed by him on bathing at Radha Kunda during the early Mayapura Vrindavan festivals.

 

Of course Prabhupada didn't want a thousand devotees from ISKCON to converge upon Radha kunda like flock of Wilda beasts.

 

It was about convenience not about siddhanta.

 

Srila Prabhupada did not want the ISKCON festival to include that because it would have been a big disturbance to the Dhama basi residents.

 

Just imagine hundreds of ISKCON devotess converging on Radha kunda like a beach party at Daytona.

 

That was what Prabhupada wanted to avoid.

 

I don't think he ever forbade his disciples as a principle from bathing in Radha kunda.

 

He restricted it as a part of the ISKCON festival programs for the sake of keeping the peaceful atmosphere in tact for the babajis and sadhakas there.

[andy108]

 

The Gaudiya Conception culminates with the feeling that Srimati Radharani is the only true happiness for Krsna, conjugally speaking. It is not only accepted, but appreciated. Krsna (Rasaraj) is complete with Radha (Mahabhava). Thus, in the interest of the complete spiritual pleasure of the Divine Couple, the devotee, following in the line of Svarupa Damodara, Rupa Goswami, Bhaktivinode, Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada, does not entertain the idea of anything other than arrangements for the pleasure of the Divine Couple. As the book shows, each camp, at least sakhya and manjari have their particular associates who are interested in the welfare of the Divine Couple. Thus, a sakha can assist in arrangements as well as a manjari. It looks as if you are suggesting that somehow Prabhupada has not been glorified because sakhya rasa doesn't afford intimate conjugal relations with Krsna.

 

I am a little weak on the topic, but my limited understanding is less of a cowherd boys time is involved in arranging for the perfection of Krsna's intimate conjugal relations with Sri Radha than are her young manjari girlfriends who are perpetually involved in such.

 

It is not a matter of Glorification. It is simply a matter of one saying that he cannot become a gopi or gopi manjari because he is eternally a cowherd boy seems, by the evidence, to be not true.

 

Srila Prabhupada always spoke of ones siddha swarupa as being fixed eternally, that it is already there, and we will realize it as our material covering is removed via sadhana.

 

He only touched upon the changing of rasas in rare instances, which I provided.

[stonehearted]

 

I am a little weak on the topic, but my limited understanding is less of a cowherd boys time is involved in arranging for the perfection of Krsna's intimate conjugal relations with Sri Radha than are her young manjari girlfriends who are perpetually involved in such.

 

There are different groups of cowherd boys, andy, with different moods and activities. The priyanarma sakhas' friendship is tinged with an appreciation for his romantic life the other boys don't share. They are sometimes under Krishna's direction, and sometimes under the direction of one of the leaders of the gopi groups. They assist by, among other things, carrying messages from Krishna to the girls so they can give them to Sri Radhika. Some of them also give him advice about his love life. Subala is the leader of this group of boys.

 

I agree with you that we don't become gopis or gopas. One feature that distinguishes our line from other groups of Gaudiya vaishnavas is the understanding that we are who we are; we don't receive our siddhasvarupa from a guru, but he (or she) helps us realize that form and service. Other groups say that the guru gives you your siddha-deha, so yours must be of the same nature as the guru's. We see evidence late in Jaiva Dharma that Bhaktivinoda Thakura had a different perspective, and we members of his parivara accept that perspective.

 

The idea that one becomes a manjari, gopi, cowboy, cow, parent, or whatever, strictly by association, and that the disciple must necessarily have the same kind of relationship with Krishna as the guru apparently comes from somewhere outside the influence of Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Before someone jumps on me, I'm also aware that there may certainly be unusual instances where sthayi-bhava may change, but that's not the general rule.

 

I touch on some of these things in the booklet. Anyone interested in what it actually says can read it; there's no charge!

[NitaiS]

 

 

So, he showed some sakhya-rasa and built his Krsna-Balarama temple to accomodate the many different kinds of devotees that he created from all over the world.

He didn't want to create an exclusive cult of gopi-bhava because many souls will not be able to go up to that high a platform in just this one life.

So, he created a situation where sakhya-rasa seemed quite obvious so as not to drive away beginners who are not able to full embrace the full-fledged form of unconditional love of Krsna.

 

This paragraph reveals layers of appasiddhanta and mundane assessment of a spiritual topic:

"Many souls will not be able to come to that level in one life"?! This is madness. No-one is getting to Vraja in one life even if they are a blade of grass.(yes there is the kripa-siddha, but thats a special case, if not hypothetical) AND "not able to go up to that high a platform"?! What is with the mundane measurement, others have addressed this. Is it like gopas are at 150,000 feet above sea level and gopis at 182,000?

"So as not to drive away beginners" because again, Sakhya is a lower rasa that does not constitute "unconditional love". With how you present it, why does Krsna even have anyone but gopis, he is the supremem enjoyer, should he not only have the "best".

 

You are tap dancing pitifully, contradicting yourself, shifting the ground, and from time to time, pointing out how good you are at debating:rofl:. Give it up. With all the time you have wasted presenting your bad arguments you could have read the book(let) times over.

 

BUT, as the booklet points out, since you claim to be cultivating manjari-bhava, I suppose it is reaonable that you see Prabhupada as a manjari. Just be sure your interest is more than intellectual.

[andy108]

 

There are different groups of cowherd boys, andy, with different moods and activities. The priyanarma sakhas' friendship is tinged with an appreciation for his romantic life the other boys don't share. They are sometimes under Krishna's direction, and sometimes under the direction of one of the leaders of the gopi groups. They assist by, among other things, carrying messages from Krishna to the girls so they can give them to Sri Radhika. Some of them also give him advice about his love life. Subala is the leader of this group of boys.

 

I agree with you that we don't become gopis or gopas. One feature that distinguishes our line from other groups of Gaudiya vaishnavas is the understanding that we are who we are; we don't receive our siddhasvarupa from a guru, but he (or she) helps us realize that form and service. Other groups say that the guru gives you your siddha-deha, so yours must be of the same nature as the guru's. We see evidence late in Jaiva Dharma that Bhaktivinoda Thakura had a different perspective, and we members of his parivara accept that perspective.

 

The idea that one becomes a manjari, gopi, cowboy, cow, parent, or whatever, strictly by association, and that the disciple must necessarily have the same kind of relationship with Krishna as the guru apparently comes from somewhere outside the influence of Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Before someone jumps on me, I'm also aware that there may certainly be unusual instances where sthayi-bhava may change, but that's not the general rule.

 

I touch on some of these things in the booklet. Anyone interested in what it actually says can read it; there's no charge!

 

I am reminded of how Sudama (cheif cowherd boy) desired to mate with Tulsi, and simultaneously Srimati Radharani caught Tulsi alone with Krsna in the beginnings of an intimate moment.

 

They were both cursed to come to earth by Sri Radha. They remembered their births in Goloka and while on earth they performed austerities in order that they might get what they wanted. Sudama (as the Danava Demon Sankachuda) married and consorted with Tulsi for a whole lifetime, and Krsna used that to get closer to Tulsi through trickery in the end.

 

So when you mention how it is not the rule, but in unusual instances ones sthayi-bhava may change, I think of how taking birth in the material deminar is used by Krsna to facilitate the progression of devotional sentiments (ie. Jaya-Vijaya, Sudama-Tulsi).

 

And further, the apparent contradictions found in the research regarding Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's "identity", led me to make the leap that he could have been involved in such a progression while here, since all pure devotees are always undergoing some internal process in relation to their relationship with Radha and Krsna despite their more external reasons for being here.

 

At which point I was labled as the worst of speculators.

 

Sigh.

[ranjeetmore]

But a madhurya rasika or maharasika devotee expresses various sentiments that are enlisted under OTHER bhavas ALSO.

Vamsivat babaji was a through n through maharasika BUT he often nursed Vatsalya rasa feelings.He would treat Nitai-Gaura as his sons.

 

This is not so suprising.Rather the MERE FACT that shines from the evidence,that Srila Prabhupada wanted to Go BACK to Goloka and have laddus with Sri Govinda is so exhilarating,heart warming and heart wrenching.It literally pulls your heart to experience that moment or even a glimpse of it.Just Magical.

 

It must be such a teary moment for his direct disciples who merely touched his feet.Those feet which walked with Krsna.

 

Radhe Radhe.