Manifest Lila mysteries, rebirth and rasa

[andy108]

Laksmi devi is attracted to Lord Krsna. She thinks she knows who he is. That is a problem that stymies her getting close...

 

 

In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said that no one can receive the real favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead without following in the footsteps of the gopīs. Even the goddess of fortune could not receive the same favor as the gopīs, although she underwent severe austerities and penances for many years. Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu discusses this point with Vyeṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa in Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 9.111–131): “The Lord inquired from Vyeṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa, ‘Your worshipable goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī, always remains on the chest of Nārāyaṇa, and she is certainly the most chaste woman in the creation. However, My Lord is Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, a cowherd boy engaged in tending cows. Why is it that Lakṣmī, being such a chaste wife, wants to associate with My Lord? Just to associate with Kṛṣṇa, Lakṣmī abandoned all transcendental happiness in Vaikuṇṭha and for a long time accepted vows and regulative principles and performed unlimited austerities.’

“Vyeṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa replied, ‘Lord Kṛṣṇa and Lord Nārāyaṇa are one and the same, but the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa are more relishable due to their sportive nature. They are very pleasing for Kṛṣṇa’s śaktis. Since Kṛṣṇa and Nārāyaṇa are both the same personality, Lakṣmī’s association with Kṛṣṇa did not break her vow of chastity. Rather, it was in great fun that the goddess of fortune wanted to associate with Lord Kṛṣṇa. The goddess of fortune considered that her vow of chastity would not be damaged by her relationship with Kṛṣṇa. Rather, by associating with Kṛṣṇa she could enjoy the benefit of the rāsa dance. If she wanted to enjoy herself with Kṛṣṇa what fault is there? Why are you joking so about this?’

“Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied, ‘I know that there is no fault in the goddess of fortune, but still she could not enter into the rāsa dance. We hear this from revealed scriptures. The authorities of Vedic knowledge met Lord Rāmacandra in Daṇḍakāraṇya, and by their penances and austerities, they were allowed to enter into the rāsa dance. But can you tell me why the goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī, could not get that opportunity? ’

“To this Vyeṅkaṭa Bhaṭṭa replied, ‘I cannot enter into the mystery of this incident. I am an ordinary living being. My intelligence is limited, and I am always disturbed. How can I understand the pastimes of the Supreme Lord? They are deeper than millions of oceans.’

“Lord Caitanya replied, ‘Lord Kṛṣṇa has a specific characteristic. He attracts everyone’s heart by the mellow of His personal conjugal love. By following in the footsteps of the inhabitants of the planet known as Vrajaloka or Goloka Vṛndāvana, one can attain the shelter of the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. However, the inhabitants of that planet do not know that Lord Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Unaware that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord, the residents of Vṛndāvana like Nanda Mahārāja, Yaśodādevī and the gopīs treat Kṛṣṇa as their beloved son or lover. Mother Yaśodā accepts Him as her son and sometimes binds Him to a grinding mortar. Kṛṣṇa’s cowherd boy friends think He is an ordinary boy and get up on His shoulders. In Goloka Vṛndāvana no one has any desire other than to love Kṛṣṇa.’ ”

The conclusion is that one cannot associate with Kṛṣṇa unless he has fully received the favor of the inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi. Therefore if one wants to be delivered by Kṛṣṇa directly, he must take to the service of the residents of Vṛndāvana, who are unalloyed devotees of the Lord.

 

But somehow...

 

 

Bg 8.21 : PURPORT :

The supreme abode of the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is described in the Brahma-saṁhitā as cintāmaṇi-dhāma, a place where all desires are fulfilled. The supreme abode of Lord Kṛṣṇa known as Goloka Vṛndāvana is full of palaces made of touchstone. There are also trees which are called "desire trees" that supply any type of eatable upon demand, and there are cows known as surabhi cows which supply a limitless supply of milk. In this abode, the Lord is served by hundreds of thousands of goddesses of fortune (Lakṣmīs), and He is called Govinda, the primal Lord and the cause of all causes.

So how did she get there?

 

 

CC Adi 4.21-22 Purport

Flawless execution of regulative principles is exhibited in the Vaikuṇṭha planets. By strictly executing these principles one can be elevated to the Vaikuṇṭha planets. But spontaneous pure loving service is found in Kṛṣṇaloka alone.

TLC 15: Explanation of the Atmarama Verse in Srimad Bhagavatam :

The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Absolute Truth, but He is manifested by the expansions of His different energies also. Those who follow the regulative principles of devotional service ultimately attain the Vaikuṇṭha planets in the spiritual world, but one who follows the principles of love in devotional service attains to the supreme abode, the highest planet in the spiritual world known as Kṛṣṇaloka or Goloka Vṛndāvana.

 

 

 

Letter to Rupanuga 1968.

So Krishna Consciousness includes Vaikuntha consciousness, but Vaikuntha consciousness does not include Krishna Consciousness. Those who are strictly following the rules and regulations of Vaisnava activities, they are promoted to Vaikuntha lokas. But those who have developed a spontaneous love for Krishna, they are promoted to the Krishna Loka. Therefore, although Krishna Consciousness includes Vaikuntha consciousness, pure Krishna Consciousness is spontaneous love for Krishna without any regulative principles. The idea can be explained that a young boy or a young girl are spontaneously attracted, without following any regulative principles previously. When one develops such spontaneous love for God, that is called pure Krishna Consciousness. In our conditioned life, we have forgotten our relationship with God, but by regulative principles, we can make alert the inert activities. Just like a rheumatic crippled man is gradually elevated by some bodily exercises. Similarly, the regulative principles are to make us habituated to our dormant service attitude, but when that is mature, it becomes spontaneous, and that is pure Krishna Consciousness. And such highly elevated Consciousness makes one eligible to enter into the Krishna Loka. The living example for much spontaneous love are exhibited by the Gopis and inhabitants of Vrindaban.

 

Will Jaya and Vijaya ever gain any deeper understanding of the glories of their Lord? Will they ever have the chance to develop "complete devotion" and the highest ecstatic exchanges in Goloka?

 

Will Bhismadeva? He went to Vaikuntha after fighting Krsna. But he got a glimpse of Krsna.

 

Did Laxmi learn from the fact that all her austerities weren't enought to get to Krsna? And get a chance to take birth in a situation where she can develop spontaneous love without a "god complex" getting in the way?

 

 

Los Angeles, February 21, 1969 : 690221BG.LA : Devotee: You mentioned that the gopas, Kṛṣṇa's friends, are playing with Him and they are said to have done very much pious deeds in their past lives. I understand that they are eternal associates...

Prabhupāda: No, some of them are eternal associates, some of them are promoted to that eternal association. Suppose if you go and become an associate, playmate of Kṛṣṇa. So your position also becomes, now, eternal. If simply the eternal associates of Kṛṣṇa can play with Him, not others, then what is the meaning of your becoming Kṛṣṇa conscious? You can become also. How? By pious deeds of many, many lives. You can also become promoted to that position. Kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ [SB 10.12.11]. Actually in the bhauma Vṛndāvana in this material world, the Vṛndāvana, mostly the associates of Kṛṣṇa are these conditioned living entities who are promoted to that Kṛṣṇa conscious perfectional stage. They are first of all allowed to see Kṛṣṇa in the planet where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes is going on. And then they are promoted to the transcendental Vṛndāvana. Therefore it is said in the Bhāgavata: kṛta-puṇya-puñjāḥ. They are all promoted. But even they are promoted, they are now eternal associates. Is it clear? Hare Kṛṣṇa..

 

Madhya 20.397

 

TRANSLATION

"The eternal pastimes of Kṛṣṇa are continuously taking place in the original Goloka Vṛndāvana planet. These same pastimes are gradually manifest within the material world, in each and every brahmāṇḍa.

PURPORT

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura elucidates this complicated explanation of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. Kṛṣṇa's appearance may be manifest in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifest in the next universe. After His killing of Pūtanā is manifest in this universe, it is next manifest in another universe. Thus all the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa are eternally existing both in the original Goloka Vṛndāvana planet and in the material universes. The 125 years calculated in our solar system to be Kṛṣṇa's lifetime equal one moment for Kṛṣṇa. One moment these pastimes are manifest in one universe, and the next moment they are manifest in the next universe. There are unlimited universes, and Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are manifest one moment after the other in all of them. This rotation is explained through the example of the sun's moving across the sky. Kṛṣṇa appears and disappears in innumerable universes, just as the sun appears and disappears during the day. Although the sun appears to rise and set, it is continuously shining somewhere on the earth. Although Kṛṣṇa's pastimes seem to appear and disappear, they are continuously existing in one brahmāṇḍa (universe) or another. Thus all of Kṛṣṇa's līlās are present simultaneously throughout the innumerable universes. By our limited senses we cannot appreciate this; therefore Kṛṣṇa's eternal pastimes are very difficult for us to understand. One should try to understand how they are taking place by understanding the allegory of the sun. Although the Lord is appearing constantly in the material universes, His pastimes are eternally present in the original Goloka Vṛndāvana. Therefore these pastimes are called nitya-līlā (eternally present pastimes). Because we cannot see what is going on in other universes, it is a little difficult for us to understand how Kṛṣṇa is eternally manifesting His pastimes. There are fourteen Manus in one day of Brahmā, and this time calculation is also taking place in other universes. Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are manifest before fourteen Manus expire. Although it is a little difficult to understand the eternal pastimes of Kṛṣṇa in this way, we must accept the verdict of Vedic literatures.

 

There are two types of devotees-the sādhaka, who is preparing for perfection, and the siddha, who is already perfect. As far as those who are already perfect are concerned, Bhagavad-gītā says, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so 'rjuna: "After giving up this material body, such a devotee comes to Me." After leaving the material body, the perfect devotee takes birth in the womb of a gopī on a planet where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are going on. This may be in this universe or another universe. This statement is found in the Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi, which is commented upon by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. When a devotee becomes perfect, he is transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa's pastimes are taking place. Kṛṣṇa's eternal associates go wherever Kṛṣṇa manifests His pastimes. As stated before, first the father and mother of Kṛṣṇa appear, then the other associates. Quitting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with Kṛṣṇa and His other associates.

 

Krsna Book 2-35

Some of the demigods were also asked to appear on this earth to assist in the transcendental pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa. When Kṛṣṇa appeared, He came in the association of His eternal servitors, but the demigods also were requested to come down to assist Him, and thus all of them took their births in the Yadu dynasty. The Yadu dynasty had 101 clans in different parts of the country. All the members of these different clans respected Lord Kṛṣṇa in a manner befitting His divine position, and all of them were His devotees heart and soul. Thus all the members of the Yadu dynasty were very opulent, happy and prosperous, and they had no anxieties. Because of their implicit faith in and devotion to Lord Kṛṣṇa, they were never defeated by any other kings. Their love of Kṛṣṇa was so intense that in their regular activities--in sitting, sleeping, traveling, talking, sporting, cleansing and bathing--they were simply absorbed in thoughts of Kṛṣṇa and paid no attention to bodily necessities. That is the symptom of a pure devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa. Just as when a man is fully absorbed in some particular thought, he sometimes forgets his other bodily activities, so the members of the Yadu dynasty acted automatically for their bodily necessities, but their actual attention was always fixed on Kṛṣṇa. Their bodily activities were performed mechanically, but their minds were always absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Some eternal associates appear with Krsna in Gokula.

 

Some demigods do as well..

 

Some conditioned souls just awakening to their siddha swarupa are born into Gopi wombs.

 

In Gokula the Gopis realize they are in the material realm, as they complain to Lord Brahma about the quality of his creation in terms of the eyelids in the bodies they inhabit.

 

Gokula serves many purposes.

 

It sounds like Krsna is adding to his number of eternal associates. How can he do that? According to some, the number of his eternal associates in Goloka is fixed.

 

------------- --------------- --------------

 

How about this next series of twists and turns?

 

 

CC Antya 11.25 purport

Haridāsa Ṭhākura is known as nāmācārya because it is he who preached the glories of chanting hari-nāma, the holy name of God. By using the words tomāra avatāra ("your incarnation"), Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu confirms that Haridāsa Ṭhākura is the incarnation of Lord Brahmā.

 

CC Adi 17.71 purport

On the mahā-prakāśa day, Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu embraced Haridāsa Ṭhākura and informed him that he was none other than an incarnation of Prahlāda Mahārāja.

 

SB 7.4.40 purport

eventually the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is worshiped by the transcendental feelings of a devotee in a relationship of śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya or mādhurya. Here the feelings of Prahlāda Mahārāja were in the mellow of vātsalya, filial love and affection.

 

Prabhupada says in SB 2.9.30 that “Lord Brahma is definitely situated in the humor of friendship with the Lord...It is clearly exhibited herein that Lord Brahma is related to the Personality of Godhead in the transcendental humor of friendship.”.

 

BS 5.28

PURPORT

Brahmā thought thus within himself, "By the recollection of kāma-gāyatrī it seems to me that I am the eternal maidservant of Kṛṣṇa."

[Sonic Yogi]

Very interesting topic.

I am hoping to see you develop this topic more and more.

Very nice.

Free thinking.

Drink from the fountain of truth and share the news.

[andy108]

 

Very interesting topic.

I am hoping to see you develop this topic more and more.

Very nice.

Free thinking.

Drink from the fountain of truth and share the news.

Did you ever, in a moment of independent thought...

 

 

Bombay 22 December, 1972:

Srila Prabhupada :Krishna Consciousness Movement is for training men to be independently thoughtful and competent in all types of departments of knowledge and action, not for making bureaucracy.

... think about how...

 

during the manifest lila in Gokula, the participants are born and grow old (up to their maximum age), which is a different experience than in Goloka?

 

How there are new sadhana siddha associates as well as veteran nitya siddhas all being born into the earthly lila at the same time?

 

How eternal nitya siddha associates living in the spiritual world are sometimes cursed due to accidental offenses and come down to earth for Lila, some forgetting who they were in the spiritual world (complements of Yoga Maya). And how then they are enabled to relate with Krsna and his devotees in a fresh and different way?

 

How devotees who have become purified of material desires still have spontaneous selfish desires. Yet those desires just happen to lead to activities that are perfectly pleasing and fulfilling of Krsna's desires?

[Narasingh]

Laxmidevi views Narayan as Her husband, not God. She is attached to that relationship and Narayan is as well. This is what hampers Her entrance into rasa-lila. Even though She knows full well that Krsna is non-different from Narayana, still something inside Her doesn't like the idea of "cheating" and She can't bring herself to follow through with Her desires. It is Her glorification of Srimati Radharani.

 

As for the "curses due to accidental offenses". I've considered that these are Lila as well as the adventing on Earth.

[andy108]

 

Laxmidevi views Narayan as Her husband, not God. She is attached to that relationship and Narayan is as well. This is what hampers Her entrance into rasa-lila. Even though She knows full well that Krsna is non-different from Narayana, still something inside Her doesn't like the idea of "cheating" and She can't bring herself to follow through with Her desires. It is Her glorification of Srimati Radharani.

 

According to the Acaryas, there is still awe and reverence in Vaikuntha, therefore my use of "God" is correct in this application.

 

Yet your point of how she sees him as husband adds to the complexity.

 

The gopis had husbands who they loved and respected.

 

Krsna appreciates the higher ecstasies generated from the complete wholesale wanton surrender of those with husbands. It is a more intense experience according to the scriptures.

 

Don't forget, we are told there are thousands of Laksmis in Goloka.

 

It seems there are some wives of Lord Narayana who just can't help themselves. After all the austerities and penances, the guilt and staunch morality of the rules, Krsna's all attractiveness tips the scales.

 

 

As for the "curses due to accidental offenses". I've considered that these are Lila as well as the adventing on Earth.

I concur, and Bhaktivedanta Swami does also in his purports to the story of Jaya and Vijaya, and cursing of Tulsi by Sri Radha.

[Narasingh]

The thousands of Laxmis are likened to the innumerable Vishnus which Brahma saw by the Darshana of Krsna. They are qualitatively as Laxmi, but Laxmidevi is Narayanas eternal consort.

 

As Krsna says B.G.4.11 He reciprocates with those as they approach Him. The Gopis are those who posess that bhava of losing all control of themselves by the sound of Krsna's flute even at the cost of societal condemnation. Laxmi posesses a different bhava. That is all.

 

This is similar to the subjective differences of sakhya bhava and sakhi bhava in the other thread. One may be seen as less than the other from a neutral standpoint, but when bhava is gifted, there is no question of it not being right for you.

 

 

Ramananda Raya told Lord Chaitanya,

kintu yanra yei rasa, sei sarvottama

tata-stha hana vicarile, ache tara-tama

It is true that whatever relationship a particular devotee has with the Lord is the best for him; still, when we study all the different methods from a neutral position, we can understand that there are higher and lower degrees of love.

[andy108]

 

The thousands of Laxmis are likened to the innumerable Vishnus which Brahma saw by the Darshana of Krsna. They are qualitatively as Laxmi, but Laxmidevi is Narayanas eternal consort.

 

As Krsna says B.G.4.11 He reciprocates with those as they approach Him. The Gopis are those who posess that bhava of losing all control of themselves by the sound of Krsna's flute even at the cost of societal condemnation. Laxmi posesses a different bhava. That is all.

 

This is similar to the subjective differences of sakhya bhava and sakhi bhava in the other thread. One may be seen as less than the other from a neutral standpoint, but when bhava is gifted, there is no question of it not being right for you.

 

There are just as many quotes saying that we have a choice.

 

It is also not a matter of a bhava "not being right" or rejection in the mundane sense of being dissatisfied, but a total satisfaction which then may transform and expand with added ecstasy.

 

Or else why would Uddhava even have the desire to take the foot dust of the gopis so much as to desire to take birth as a clump of grass that might be under their feet some day?

 

As above so below.

 

Each misunderstanding we have of increase of ecstasy has a pure and true counterpart in the spiritual world.

 

What would be the use of so many acaryas objectively analyzing and delineating the rasas, claiming levels of superiority, increasing and more complete tastes and ecstasies?

 

What a fruitless exercise according to the no-change Vadis.

 

Yup, everyone in Vaikuntha, despite the evidence, is never to get the chance to experience the completeness of ecstatic love of God uninhibited by awe and reverence.

 

Why? Just to be on the winning side of a debate?

[Narasingh]

Yes, this isn't about winning. Its about bhakti which is ahaituki apratihata. And... I've heard it can all be harmonized by taking part in Mahaprabhu's sankirtana.

[primate]

Haréé Krishna!