Changing Rasas?

Sukhada · March 5, 2009

I was posting a reply to Narasingh on the O My Friend thread, only to discover that it has been closed. So I thought I'd start a new thread here.

What about the story of Gopa-Kumar.
I find it fascinating that contemporary Gaudiya Vaishnavism almost never counts Vaikuntha, Narayan's abode as having much bearing. However, the fact that there are eternal parshads in Vaikuntha coupled with the fact that Gopa-Kumar passed through Vaikuntha on his way to sakhya bhava lila with Krsna, should indicate that svarupa is potentially mutable. Also that there are kundas in Vrndavan dham capabaple of bestowing gopi svarup...

It would be better to say that while a svarup may be right for one, another may be changed if it supports Lila.

But think what the svarupa is: one's constitutional position. Thus can you say that Gopa-Kumar attained his svarupa before attaining Goloka Vrindavana? No. Before that point, he was in a perfected sadhaka deha (Gopa Kumar). When he finally attained svarupa-siddhi, he got his eternal name (Sarupa). So as his sthayi-bhava was perfected and he attained prema, he entered Goloka Vrindavana. Furthermore, the story of Gopa Kumar is meant to illustrate the different planes of experience. It is not the general course of sadhakas.

So I maintain that the idea that the sthayi-bhava (one of the five primary rasas) changes (is mutable) is not correct (while of course remaining open to compelling sastric evidence to the contrary ).

Beggar · March 5, 2009

Morning Walk [Excerpt]

New Zealand:

Wednesday, 09 January 2008

[Venu-gopal dasa:] If such a great devotee like Uddhava could not pass the gopis' ‘entrance examination', to see if he was eligible to learn how to get prema like theirs, how can I hope to get such prema?
[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] He is a siddha-bhakta (a devotee already at the stage of perfection), so he cannot attain a new relationship with Krsna. But we are now independent. [We are free to endeavour for that prema -ed] If, by serving and hearing from a rasika tattva-jna Vaisnava, you will develop greed for serving the gopis and the Divine Couple Sri Sri Radha Krsna, then, by devotional practices you can go to Goloka Vrndavana. One can even attain the state of enjoying the rasa-dance with the gopis, to serve Them there.

[Pujyapada Padmanabha Maharaja:] Srila Gurudeva, in that connection, we hear that Sri Narada Muni, who is also siddha (situated in his eternally perfect spiritual body), performed so many austerities at Narada Kunda, and he attained the body of a gopi. He was already siddha and yet he attained it, so why can't Uddhava get it?

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] Uddhava will not attain a gopi body. Narada eternally has so many forms in all the sweet pastimes of Krsna. In one form he is Madhu-mangala (Krsna's cowherd-boy friend). In a second form he is Naradiya gopi; in another form, in Vaikuntha, he is with Lord Narayana; and he has another form in Svarga (heaven), with the demigods. He has so many eternal forms.

[Pujyapada Madhava Maharaja:] Baladeva Prabhu is also an example of this. He has vatsalya (parental mood), sakhya (the mood of a cowherd friend), dasya (the mood of a servant), and even madhurya (the mood of a gopi) in the form of Ananga Manjari.

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] But others - like Nanda Baba and Yasoda, Vasudeva and Devaki, Uddhava, and Akrura - cannot add other rasas to their already eternally existing rasa.

If one has a sthayi-bhava (the foundational ecstasy of a particular relationship with Krsna) in only one mood, he will always be in that one mood.

In the beginning of one's devotional practices, by hearing about the Lord's pastimes, one my want to serve Sri Sri Radha-Krsna and he may also want to serve Sri Ramacandra. In that case he will think about Rama and His associates like Hanuman, Bharata, and Laksmana, and he will also meditate on Sri Krsna's pastimes with His sakhas, or with Nanda Baba and Yasoda, or with the gopis. In other words, in the beginning one is not situated in his permanent relationship, so one will sometimes be attracted to a particular relationship when he hears about it, and at other times one may become attracted to another service relationship when he hears about it.

One can have two spiritual forms - in the pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and in the pastimes of Sri Krsna - and this is from the beginning of one's devotional practices.

[Dhruva dasa:] Gurudeva, does the soul somehow separate to be in two forms in two pastimes?

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] Krsna is akhanda-tattva. Akhanda means undivided, or whole. So how can He manifest in millions of forms? We cannot imagine anything inconceivable, even in this world. How have the trees come? Seeds come from trees, and trees again come from seeds. Flowers come and leaves come. How? We cannot imagine this. So, everything about Sri Krsna is inconceivable.

[Dhruva dasa:] Consciousness is always expanding and Krsna is always expanding. So do Krsna's devotees also expand, even in their perfect spiritual forms?

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] Yes. For example, Mother Yasoda has unlimited forms. Wherever Krsna is, she is. This is true for Nanda Baba also, and for Madhu-mangala and all of Krsna's other associates as well. But their rasa (their particular relationship with Krsna) will be the same.

Narasingh · March 5, 2009

Okay Sukhada, that explains the definition of svarup siddhi, but it sort of dances around the question. How does it explain the fact that, although Gopa Kumar attained a place in the Eternal Realm (Vaikuntha) served with the Narayan Bhaktas (of which there are surely an unlimited number of eternal Narayan parshads) in the form suitable to do so (an eternal form which never needs to see birth, death, old age, or disease), he still moved on to Goloka to another form? That is assuming his four armed form from Vaikuntha changes to a two armed form of a cowherd boy.

Beggar · March 5, 2009

Just look at this part. I'm not demanding you accept the authority here. But at least look at the ideas. What do you think? Does this answer any of the questions? Do you agree? Do you want something more specific?

[Pujyapada Padmanabha Maharaja:] Srila Gurudeva, in that connection, we hear that Sri Narada Muni, who is also siddha (situated in his eternally perfect spiritual body), performed so many austerities at Narada Kunda, and he attained the body of a gopi. He was already siddha and yet he attained it, so why can't Uddhava get it?
[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] Uddhava will not attain a gopi body. Narada eternally has so many forms in all the sweet pastimes of Krsna. In one form he is Madhu-mangala (Krsna's cowherd-boy friend). In a second form he is Naradiya gopi; in another form, in Vaikuntha, he is with Lord Narayana; and he has another form in Svarga (heaven), with the demigods. He has so many eternal forms.

[Pujyapada Madhava Maharaja:] Baladeva Prabhu is also an example of this. He has vatsalya (parental mood), sakhya (the mood of a cowherd friend), dasya (the mood of a servant), and even madhurya (the mood of a gopi) in the form of Ananga Manjari.

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] But others - like Nanda Baba and Yasoda, Vasudeva and Devaki, Uddhava, and Akrura - cannot add other rasas to their already eternally existing rasa.

If one has a sthayi-bhava (the foundational ecstasy of a particular relationship with Krsna) in only one mood, he will always be in that one mood.

andy108 · March 5, 2009

TLC ch.1
Active interest in Kṛṣṇa-the understanding that Kṛṣṇa is mine or that I am Kṛṣṇa's, and that therefore my business is to satisfy the senses of Kṛṣṇa-is typical of a higher stage than the neutrality of the śānta-rasa. Simply by understanding the greatness of Kṛṣṇa, one can achieve the status of śānta-rasa, in which the worshipable object may be the impersonal Brahman or Paramātmā. Worship of the impersonal Brahman and the Paramātmā is conducted by those engaged in empiric philosophical speculation and mystic yoga. However, when one develops even further in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or spiritual understanding, he can appreciate that the Paramātmā, the Supersoul, is the eternal worshipable object, and he surrenders unto Him. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante jñānavān māṁ prapadyate (Bg. 7.19): "After many, many births of worshiping Brahman and Paramātmā, when one surrenders unto Vāsudeva as the supreme master and accepts himself as the eternal servitor of Vāsudeva, he becomes a great transcendentally realized soul." At that time, due to his thick and thin relationship with the Supreme Absolute Truth, one begins to render some sort of transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Thus the neutral relationship known as śānta-rasa is transformed into dāsya-rasa, servitorship...

...The Lord instructed Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī to write the transcendental literature named Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, the science of devotional service, and indicate therein the substance of these five transcendental relationships. It is explained in that great literature how the transcendental relationship of śānta-rasa, taking the shape of unflinching faith in Kṛṣṇa, is further developed into dāsya-rasa with the spirit of service, and then to sakhya-rasa or undeterred fraternity, and further to the transcendental platform of paternal love, wherein one feels himself to be maintaining the Lord. All these relationships culminate on the highest platform of conjugal love (madhura-rasa), wherein all these transcendental relationships exist simultaneously.

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Room Conversation July 19, 1973 - London
Revatīnandana: That I understand. The question is suppose this yogi, he has not got full knowledge, he does not know of Kṛṣṇa, and therefore he is meditating on Paramātmā, and he attains Vaikuṇṭha. Is it possible that because he hadn't got full knowledge...

Prabhupāda: No, he has to go, simply by Paramātmā conception, he cannot go to Vaikuṇṭha.

Revatīnandana: Can he later go on from Vaikuṇṭha to Goloka? Can that happen also?

Prabhupāda: Yes, there is such instances, can go.

suchandra · March 5, 2009

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“The great sage Narada said, ’My dear Maharaja Yudhisthira, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna is always ready to help you. He is your master, guru, God, very dear friend and head of your family. Yet sometimes He agrees to act as your servant or order-carrier. You are greatly fortunate because this relationship is possible only by bhakti-yoga. The Lord can give liberation [mukti] very easily, but He does not very easily give one bhakti-yoga, because by that process He is bound to the devotee.”

"Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has freely given this love of Krsna everywhere and anywhere, even to the most fallen, such as Jagai and Madhai. What then to speak of those who are already pious and elevated?"

"In the beginning one should very regularly chant Sri Gaurasundara’s holy name and then chant the holy name of Lord Nityananda. Thus one’s heart will be cleansed of impure desires for material enjoyment. Then one can approach Vrndavana-dhama to worship Lord Krsna. Unless one is favored by Lord Caitanya and Nityananda, there is no need to go to Vrndavana, for unless one’s mind is purified, he cannot see Vrndavana, even if he goes there. Actually going to Vrndavana involves taking shelter of the six Gosvamis by reading Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Vidagdha-madhava, Lalita-madhava and the other books that they have given. In this way one can understand the transcendental loving affairs between Radha and Krsna. Kabe hama bujhaba se yugala-piriti. The conjugal love between Radha and Krsna is not an ordinary human affair; it is fully transcendental. In order to understand Radha and Krsna, worship Them and engage in Their loving service, one must be guided by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda Prabhu and the six Gosvamis, Lord Caitanya’s direct disciples."

Sri Caitanya-caritamrita

Beggar · March 5, 2009

So just as it appears that the jiva manifests, but is actually eternal, similarly the sthayi-bhava appears to manifest, but is actually eternal. This is what I meant before by the interrelatedness of the two issues. So one can go up to Goloka from Vaikuntha and the story of Narada seems to be one of the major examples. So in a sense one who goes up from Vaikuntha to Goloka is really just realizing their "eternal" form. Its just like the origin of the jiva issue in that there is only so much analyzing that one can do, until we get it that language really doesn't do the topic full justice because we are dealing with something that is really inconceivable. But when we hear about these subjects from the lotus mouth of a sadhu (sad - sat) or sat guru then not only do we hear about the intricacies of the topic, but also there is the deep faith, love and affection in that voice. Sometimes if we are fortunate then we can read it and such a mood will just jump off the page into our hearts. But if we are not careful then we will only see the intracies and apparent contradictions of the subject as we try to disect it with our rational minds, just because we have nothing better to do.

Narasingh · March 5, 2009

Just look at this part. I'm not demanding you accept the authority here. But at least look at the ideas. What do you think? Does this answer any of the questions? Do you agree? Do you want something more specific?

So there are instances in which ones sthayi bhava may have multiple moods, and therefore may have multiple spiritual forms?

I can understand how Uddhava remains as who he is. As well as how Laxmidevi remains who she is. Although they have some intense appreciation for other bhavas, they are actually fully situated in their sthayi bhava of one mood. But there is room for one to have a sthayi bhava with multiple moods such as Narada Muni.

Interesting. I'd love to hear more about it

Sonic Yogi · March 5, 2009

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] But we are now independent. [We are free to endeavour for that prema -ed] If, by serving and hearing from a rasika tattva-jna Vaisnava, you will develop greed for serving the gopis and the Divine Couple Sri Sri Radha Krsna, then, by devotional practices you can go to Goloka Vrndavana. One can even attain the state of enjoying the rasa-dance with the gopis, to serve Them there.

So, this statement contradicts the theory that there is an inborn innate specific rasa that will be discovered upon svarupa-siddhi.

On the previous topic Beggar posted a statement by Narayana Maharaja where he said:

...Srila Svami Maharaja came to give what is already in each soul.

krti-sadhya bhavet sadhya-

bhava sa sadhanabhidha

nitya-siddhasya bhavasya

prakatyam hrdi sadhyata

[“When transcendental devotional service, by which love for Krsna is attained, is executed by the senses, it is called sadhana-bhakti, or the regulative discharge of devotional service. Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice.”]

The soul is perfect in itself. The soul’s relation with Krsna, its name, qualities and all specialities, are already present within. This perfection is not brought from outside. Unfortunately maya covers it, but Sri Guru removes that maya and then everything manifests automatically.

So, it appears that he has supported both sides of this discussion on different occasions.

Sonic Yogi · March 5, 2009

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] Narada eternally has so many forms in all the sweet pastimes of Krsna. In one form he is Madhu-mangala (Krsna's cowherd-boy friend). In a second form he is Naradiya gopi; in another form, in Vaikuntha, he is with Lord Narayana; and he has another form in Svarga (heaven), with the demigods. He has so many eternal forms.

So, this pretty much solves the dilemma.

I have often thought that Srila Prabhupada was an incarnation of Narada Muni.

If he is, that is why he can simultaneously be in sakhya-rasa and madhurya-rasa both in different aspects of his personality.

I think Prabhupada is either an incarnation of Narada Muni or of the type of devotee as Narada Muni.

Like Narada, he flys all over the world preaching love of Krsna.

Wow, for sure, this is the greatest ideal of a devotee that would be so wonderful to emulate.

I guess great preachers like Narada and Prabhupada get the option of tasting all the best rasa?

This is the ultimate.

Now, I know that Narada Muni is my role model.

Of course, for some reason I have long thought that anyway.

There can be nothing better than that.

I take the dust of the lotus feet of Narayan Maharaja on my head.

I owe him big time for supplying such marvelous nectar for my scorching soul.

Sonic Yogi · March 5, 2009

"By hearing the narration of the pastimes of the Lord, one contacts directly the Personality of Godhead, and, as explained before, by hearing about the Personality of Godhead, from within, all accumulated sins of the mundane creature are cleared. Thus being cleared of all sins, the hearer gradually becomes liberated from mundane association and becomes attracted to the features of the Lord. Narada Muni has just explained this by his personal experience. The whole idea is that simply by hearing about the Lord's pastimes one can become one of the associates of the Lord. Narada Muni has eternal life, unlimited knowledge and unfathomed bliss, and he can travel all over the material and spiritual worlds without restriction. One can attain to the highest perfection of life simply by attentive hearing of the transcendental pastimes of the Lord from the right sources, as Sri Narada heard them from the pure devotees (bhakti-vedantas) in his previous life. This process of hearing in the association of the devotees is especially recommended in this age of quarrel (Kali)."
Srimad-bhagavatam 1.5.26, Purport

SB 1.6.38 purport:

Śrī Nārada Muni plays on his instrument to glorify the transcendental activities of the Lord and to give relief to all miserable living entities of the universe. No one is happy here within the universe, and what is felt as happiness is māyā's illusion. The illusory energy of the Lord is so strong that even the hog who lives on filthy stool feels happy. No one can be truly happy within the material world. Śrīla Nārada Muni, in order to enlighten the miserable inhabitants, wanders everywhere. His mission is to get them back home, back to Godhead. That is the mission of all genuine devotees of the Lord following the footsteps of that great sage.

So, Prabhupada says here he is following in the footsteps of Narada Muni.

That explains a lot of things.

Sonic Yogi · March 5, 2009

SB 1.6.37 purport

But a full-fledged free soul like Narada, always engaged in chanting the Lord's glory, is free to move not only on earth but also in any part of the universe, as well as in any part of the spiritual sky. We can just imagine the extent and unlimitedness of his freedom, which is as good as that of the Supreme Lord. There is no reason or obligation for his traveling, and no one can stop him from his free movement. Similarly, the transcendental system of devotional service is also free. It may or may not develop in a particular person even after he undergoes all the detailed formulas. Similarly, the association of the devotee is also free. One may be fortunate to have it, or one may not have it even after thousands of endeavors. Therefore, in all spheres of devotional service, freedom is the main pivot. Without freedom there is no execution of devotional service. The freedom surrendered to the Lord does not mean that the devotee becomes dependent in every respect. To surrender unto the Lord through the transparent medium of the spiritual master is to attain complete freedom of life.

The kind of freedom of choice and total freedom in rasa that I was trying to imply in my previous posts on another topic is exactly the kind of freedom that Narada Muni has.

Now that is what I'm talkin' about.

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] Narada eternally has so many forms in all the sweet pastimes of Krsna. In one form he is Madhu-mangala (Krsna's cowherd-boy friend). In a second form he is Naradiya gopi; in another form, in Vaikuntha, he is with Lord Narayana; and he has another form in Svarga (heaven), with the demigods. He has so many eternal forms.

Narada Muni exemplifies that type of spritual versatility and fluidity that I was trying to infer on the previous topic.

This answers a lot of questions for me.

Today, I am a happy camper.

Sonic Yogi · March 5, 2009

I take the dust of the lotus feet of Narayan Maharaja on my head.

I owe him big time for supplying such marvelous nectar for my scorching soul.

I also owe Beggar unlimitedly for supplying this information.

Beggar is also one of my gurus.

He is my senior Godbrother and siksha guru.

I take the dust of his lotus feet on my head.

:namaskar:

Beggar ki-jaya!!!!!!!!!!!

Sonic Yogi · March 5, 2009

Narada Muni has eternal life, unlimited knowledge and unfathomed bliss, and he can travel all over the material and spiritual worlds without restriction. One can attain to the highest perfection of life simply by attentive hearing of the transcendental pastimes of the Lord from the right sources, as Sri Narada heard them from the pure devotees (bhakti-vedantas) in his previous life. This process of hearing in the association of the devotees is especially recommended in this age of quarrel (Kali)." Srimad-bhagavatam 1.5.26, Purport

[srila Narayan Gosvami Maharaja:] Narada eternally has so many forms in all the sweet pastimes of Krsna. In one form he is Madhu-mangala (Krsna's cowherd-boy friend). In a second form he is Naradiya gopi; in another form, in Vaikuntha, he is with Lord Narayana; and he has another form in Svarga (heaven), with the demigods. He has so many eternal forms.

Sonic Yogi · March 5, 2009

So it appears that Narada has sthayi-bhava of Madhumangal, Naradiya Gopi, some Narayan in Vaikuntha form etc. all at the same time.

So, this pretty much opens up the possibility that at least in some tattva of bhakta like Narada there is the flexibility and fluidity to go from one sthayi-bhava to another according to his wish.