primate Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 Krishna (Brahma) is the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Brahman). He is of God. He is not the source of God. He is the supreme personal energy of God. He is the supreme person that we can relate to or 'know'. Impersonal Brahman is the 'unknowable' origin.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted March 20, 2009 Report Share Posted March 20, 2009 http://vedabase.net/bg/14/27/en The metaphor of the sun and the rays of sun is often given. The sun does not come from the rays. Brahman is the effulgence (brahmajyoti) of Sri Krsna, as sunshine emanates from the sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Krishna (Brahma) is the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Brahman). He is of God. He is not the source of God. He is the supreme personal energy of God. He is the supreme person that we can relate to or 'know'... No boss. The vedas declare,"Murtancaiva amurtanca." Even Shankaracharya accepts this. This Brahm is formless as well as He manifests an eternal Form since beginningless time. The worshipful entity of the jnyaanis is same as the nanda nandana of the bhaktas.There is no chance that Nirguna Brahm is the basis/origin in any point of time of Bhagavan. Impersonal Brahman is the 'unknowable' origin.. You say Brahm is unknowable.Your right.Partially. Svetasvatara muni has declared it in the Svetasvatara upanishad that he knows Brahm.He further says that even you can know Him IF and only IF you recieve His mercy. (I will stress this point until you will understand the humungous implications of this vedic revelation.) For this reason,everyone from Ramanujacharya to Madhvacharya are crying in front of the saguna saakar Brahm.Do you know what Shankaracharya states in the bhasya of one of the brahm sutras ? He states that "BHAKTI" and DEVOTION to that Brahm ALONE can help you cross Maya. Thus Brahm CAN BE KNOWN through His Mercy ALONE. It may not seem so obvious or important to you,but those who say "namo namah" to greet each other,clad in flaming red 'sannyasi' clothing,know the nirguna criteria VERY WELL. Shankarites,atleast the intelligent ones,know that Mercy(Krpa sakti) or any kind of energy for that matter,HASN"T and NEVER WILL BE manifested in the Niraakar Brahm. Thus their urgent need to worship Ganapati,Shankara,Devi,etc. thinking them to be manifestations of brahm.These misled people think that Indra can give mercy and eliminate maya. There are those retarded cases also,who think that,"I will overcome Maya on my own.Just watch." Due to this,Shankaracharya accepted Sri Krsna Upasana and recieved His mercy.He further recommended Sri Krsna Bhakti to his mother.His mercy made her have the Supreme Lord's Vision.The vedas state that once a person has the vision of the Supreme Lord,he is freed from maya forever. For these reasons I staunchly believe that Sri Krsna is that Brahm.What's more,the geeta states that He is the basis of Nirguna Brahm.This same bhagavad geeta would be declared by shankaracharya to be 'the only one book to be accepted' and Sri KRsna as 'the only One to be worshipped'. And you know what they say,"Once you get the high command from the Aadi Jagadguru,the minions have to retreat." Of course,if your one of the 'buddhist-vedantist soup people' the vedas are not authority and it's obvious that,here,vedas are the final word. P.S. You say,He(Sri Krsna) is of God.I would like to point out that Sri Shankaracharya has forbidden his disciples to call nirguna brahm as even 'brahm'.He has no name and no form.Imagine trying to 'meditate' on this wondrous entity without any name,form and quality. All is wonderful in discussing how we all are God.But the car never has,never is and never will be going any further than this (into practically realising such a fantastic 'truth'.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Melvin1 Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Krsna says I quote".. the entire cosmos is in Me" and yet in the sastras this viewer sees that Krsna is also outside of this manifestation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensible _bloke Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Ghostface, There are 'vedantists' here who state that THEY do not accept Brahma-samhita nor the puranas etc --so the discussion requires some savvy-ness to change their hearts. Proselitization is never a good Idea.... Intelligent people choose a path because their experience says so not because some scripture says so. Each person has the right to express his views, but it should not be to the point of "my view better than yours". That creates friction and nobody gains. I have nothing against a personal God, I too have immense love for my ishta devata.. But if someone chooses the impersonal over the personal, it is their choice. In my opinion, as a limited human being one cannot fanthom the whole truth... So we try to substantiate using scriptures, experiences etc, but ultimately, there are as many theories as there are people. To a shaiva the vaishnava texts don’t make sense, to the vaishnava, the shaiva texts don’t make sense, to a muslim, the Vedas don’t makes sense, to a Christian, the Koran does not make sense. To each his own. As Buddha said " Apa Devo Bhava". If there was only one version of the truth, then why so many religions, why so many sects, why so many philosophies? Why atheism? The very fact that existence allows individual freedom itself is evidence that one shirt will not fit all.....Apa Devo Bhava..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensible _bloke Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 No boss. Thus their urgent need to worship Ganapati,Shankara,Devi,etc. thinking them to be manifestations of brahm.These misled people think that Indra can give mercy and eliminate maya. There are those retarded cases also,who think that,"I will overcome Maya on my own.Just watch." And I suppose You, by praying to Krsna are in Vaikunta /Krsna Loka already!!! and are free from Maya??? Does not look like. You are unable to even tolerate a different point of view and resort to calling people retards, just because they hold a different view / do not to your ISCKON views. "We are watching" and suspect that your path is not one of peace, a method (Krsna chanting) that cannot induce tolerance of others views and propagate compassion and love seems to be not worth a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensible _bloke Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 P.S. You say,He(Sri Krsna) is of God.I would like to point out that Sri Shankaracharya has forbidden his disciples to call nirguna brahm as even 'brahm'.He has no name and no form.Imagine trying to 'meditate' on this wondrous entity without any name,form and quality. All is wonderful in discussing how we all are God.But the car never has,never is and never will be going any further than this (into practically realising such a fantastic 'truth'.) Have you heard of stilling the mind and being awash with waves of bliss??? That is called Samadhi, and total absorption is called Nirvikalpa Samadhi.. Not only has it been done. there are many Yogis and Siddhas who have accomplished it and some have chosen to drop their bodies and merge with the infinite current. "They have got the realization of oneness". Suggest you read the life history of Ramakrishana, Ramana Maharishi, Yogananda to get a view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensible _bloke Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 PURPORT In these two verses the Supreme Lord gives a chance to the modern philosopher, for here it is clear that the Supreme is different from the individual soul. Arjuna, after hearing the essential four verses of Bhagavad Gita in this chapter, became completely free from all doubts and accepted KRSNa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He at once boldly declares, "You are paraM brahma, the Supreme Personality of Godhead." And previously KRSNa stated that He is the originator of everything and everyone. Every demigod and every human being is dependent on Him. Men and demigods, out of ignorance, think that they are absolute and independent of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That ignorance is removed perfectly by the discharge of devotional service. Ok I learnt a Sloka when i was In school Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Devo Maheshwaraha Guru Sakshat "PARAM BRAHMA" Taismai Sree Gurave Namaha. Which was Boldly decalared to me by my sanskrit teacher. So as per your interpretation i conclude that Guru is the Param brahma....the Source of all, the supreme God head. Might Sound stupid to a dwaitin, but makes perfect sense to an advaitin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Melvin1 Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 If there was only one version of the truth, then why so many religions, why so many sects, why so many philosophies? Why atheism? The very fact that existence allows individual freedom itself is evidence that one shirt will not fit all.....Apa Devo Bhava..... Religions to me are like rivers that flow into the sea. But rivers ultimately become empty if it not for the water from the sea that evaporates up in the sky to form clouds when heavily-laden becomes rain which fills the earth`s empty crevices we call veins. A collapsed unhydrated vein(river) can not transport back to the sea garbage and waste materials the earth(body) excretes for proper disposal if it`s not infused with water. It was only yesterday when uncontaminated water was not for sale. Today, it`s filtered, bottled and sold with different labels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambya Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 Ghostface, There are 'vedantists' here who state that THEY do not accept Brahma-samhita nor the puranas etc --so the discussion requires some savvy-ness to change their hearts. not that your comments ever carry any sense , but still i thought of removing a misconception . the followers of veadanta sutras are called vedantists . and this vedanta sutras have been interpreted both by sankaracharya and by ramanujacharya. and both interpretations have equal validity in the world of philosophy . therefore there is absolutely no necessity for a 'vedantin' to believe anything else ( brahma samhita for ex ) apart from the basic vedanta sutras and their commentaries . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambya Posted March 21, 2009 Report Share Posted March 21, 2009 The metaphor of the sun and the rays of sun is often given. The sun does not come from the rays. Brahman is the effulgence (brahmajyoti) of Sri Krsna, as sunshine emanates from the sun. ive heard many gaudiya vaishnav followers describing brahman as krishna's boddily effulgence . im rather curious to know that where in vedanta or brahman sutras it is described as such . please dont qoute puranas and similar texts which are not acceptable to most other sampradayas . qouting from upanishads ( not the 15th century ones of course ) or brahma sutras would help immensly . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 ... For these reasons I staunchly believe that Sri Krsna is that Brahm.What's more,the geeta states that He is the basis of Nirguna Brahm. ... Nirguna and Saguna are dual aspects of Brahman. These categories basically complement each other. It’s like having the comprehensible (Saguna) along with the incomprehensible (Nirguna) simultaneously. They do not contradict or negate each other.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Melvin1 Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Nirguna and Saguna are dual aspects of Brahman. These categories basically complement each other. It’s like having the comprehensible (Saguna) along with the incomprehensible (Nirguna) simultaneously. They do not contradict or negate each other.. Yes, you`re correct. One can`t be without the other. Just like you can`t generate electricity if you only use the positive electrons. You need, too, the negative ones. It`s so basic, isn`t it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 <a href=http://vedabase.net/iso/15/en target=new>Mantra Fifteen</a> <center> hiraNmayena pAtreNa satyasyApihitaM mukham tat tvaM pUSann apAvRNu satya-dharmAya dRSTaye </center> hiraNmayena--by a golden effulgence; pAtreNa--by a dazzling covering; satyasya--of the Supreme Truth; apihitam--covered; mukham--the face; tat--that covering; tvam--Yourself; pUSan--O sustainer; apAvRNu--kindly remove; satya--pure; dharmAya--unto the devotee; dRSTaye--for exhibiting. O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Melvin1 Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 When Dhruva Maharaj saw the Lord, he didn`t want anything. & yet Dhruva Maharaj without asking received from the Lord a memo appointing him the ruler of Sisumara planet(Polestar), a hub-planet where all other planetary systems revolve.Dhruva Maharaj, a pure-devotee of Krsna was only four years old and he was looking for something(was it a piece of land?) But when he couldn`t find it, he started witholding his breath and closing all the holes in his body. What he did shook the planets in the solar system. The inhabitants in one of these planets prayed and requested Lord Visnu to stop what Dhruva Maharaj was doing other wise they would all die.At a blink of an eye, Lord Visnu(Krsna) appeared before Dhruva Maharaj.When the latter saw the Lord, he stopped all his activities and vowed before the Lord and said, " I don`t want anything from you my dear Lord Visnu(Krsna). I was looking for a piece of land but when I could not find it, I was frustrated and I wanted to die. Now, I saw You, I lost the taste of it or wanting to own a piece of land." That`s how Dhruva Maharaj was awarded the Polestar. The Lord didn`t help him find what he been looking for so desperately even if he was a pure devotee unless, of course, he did something radical like commtting the act of suicide. But the Lord however wouldn`t allow it because a pure devotee sustains all the others linked to him. If a pure devotee destroys himself everything, too, linked to him is destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 You and resort to calling people retards, just because they hold a different view / do not to your ISCKON views . you mean ISKCON VIEW = the need of Bhagavan's mercy for overcoming maya. Are you challenging the authority of the vedas based on what a ramana mahrishi has proclaimed ?? If you think that i have made it all up,please say the word.Vedic evidence can be provided.You should be careful,for next time when you say such things,i will ask you to eat your words up,for they show clear ignorance of the vedic facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaisersose Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Ok I learnt a Sloka when i was In school Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Devo Maheshwaraha Guru Sakshat "PARAM BRAHMA" Taismai Sree Gurave Namaha. Which was Boldly decalared to me by my sanskrit teacher. So as per your interpretation i conclude that Guru is the Param brahma....the Source of all, the supreme God head. Might Sound stupid to a dwaitin, but makes perfect sense to an advaitin. Sensible Bloke, To qualify for that monicker, you have to first quit discussions with Ranjeet and his distinguished colleagues and preferrably take a cleansing bath in the nearest holy river ASAP. Else, the name does not apply! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Have you heard of stilling the mind and being awash with waves of bliss??? That is called Samadhi, and total absorption is called Nirvikalpa Samadhi.. Not only has it been done. there are many Yogis and Siddhas who have accomplished it and some have chosen to drop their bodies and merge with the infinite current. "They have got the realization of oneness". Suggest you read the life history of Ramakrishana, Ramana Maharishi, Yogananda to get a view. This has already been discussed in length.The atma jnanis' temporary and flittering realisation of the jeevatma has been discussed in the varaha upanishad.This atmananda comes strictly under the purview of sattvika and thus is tainted by Vidya Maya. The elimination of Vidya maya or Gunawarika maya is not possible even if you break you heads for millions of years. If i'm not wrong,Ramakrishna paramhamsa had special mercy of Jagadamba,who is Yogamaya. The same site which proudly states the suprehuman feats of 'the' babaji,also states babajis confession that,'yogananda has been born in africa as a girl.'(Remember this is not my view.This purely comes from your side of the wall.) Your views of samadhi are very unclear.It is so because,your lot consider atma as same as brahm.When you achieve atma-jnana through elimination of the ego,you go mad thinking you have becme brahm.But it is a fact that the jeevatma cannot overcome mahat and prakriti on his own.This is vedic fact. Kaivalyam sattvikam gyanam. Sattva sanjaayate jnyaanam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Ok I learnt a Sloka when i was In school Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Devo Maheshwaraha Guru Sakshat "PARAM BRAHMA" Taismai Sree Gurave Namaha. Which was Boldly decalared to me by my sanskrit teacher. So as per your interpretation i conclude that Guru is the Param brahma....the Source of all, the supreme God head. Might Sound stupid to a dwaitin, but makes perfect sense to an advaitin. Parah brahm refers to Sri Krsna. Sri Krsna is considered the parah brahm,the source of all. In the Subala sruti,Rg veda,it is said that Narayana existed before creation,during maintenance and even after total destruction. The indifference of guru and Sri Krsna is better explained in the narada pancaratra(A much better authority than the words of a sensible bloke.) Narada states that the guru and Sri Krsna are indifferent. This has also been stated in the vedanta sutra in this way: Apart from Creating,maintaining and destroying the sum total of the material universes,Bhagavan grants the mahatma all His energies. Besides,Kabeer explains that Sri HAri takes over after attainment of bhakti.Since maya is eliminated,the Jeevatma comes under the direct control of His Para shakti. Since jeevatma is marginal.It is either under maya or under Sri Krsna's para shakti.When Sri Krsna manifests Himself fully in the heart,the jeevatma takes a back seat.No karmic bonds tie him for Sri Bhagavan manifests Himself in the guru.Thus we consider guru as Bhagavan Himself.This is the meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Nirguna and Saguna are dual aspects of Brahman. These categories basically complement each other. It’s like having the comprehensible (Saguna) along with the incomprehensible (Nirguna) simultaneously. They do not contradict or negate each other.. Why is saguna brahm incomprehensible ?? Just because He has a form? ? Incomprehensible means = un-knowable,beyond grasp. I completely agree that billions have seen the Lord as a Lion,a Prince and a Cowherd,but did they know Him ?? No. The vedas state that your mind,senses and your intelligence cannot go there,becoz they are mayic/jada.Bhagavan is BEYOND maya. Even though Rama came on the field,warriors saw Him with thousands of heads,others saw ten heads.Brahm jnanis were strangely attracted to Him. But the mahatmas were the ones who pierced His veil of yogamaya and saw His spiritual Form.They couldn't stop looking at His features.They were always in ecstacy/bliss. Even Sri Krsna is incomprehensible.If it were not so,the vedas would have clearly stated this.If He was comprehensible for our mayic intelligence,we would have just met Him and known Him and His real form. But this is not so.His spritual form,which throws Shankara and uma and rama and sanatha kumara in throes of raptures is not,CANNOT be known by the eyes of even Indra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted March 22, 2009 Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 Why is saguna brahm incomprehensible ?? Just because He has a form? ? Incomprehensible means = un-knowable,beyond grasp. I completely agree that billions have seen the Lord as a Lion,a Prince and a Cowherd,but did they know Him ?? No. The vedas state that your mind,senses and your intelligence cannot go there,becoz they are mayic/jada.Bhagavan is BEYOND maya. Even though Rama came on the field,warriors saw Him with thousands of heads,others saw ten heads.Brahm jnanis were strangely attracted to Him. But the mahatmas were the ones who pierced His veil of yogamaya and saw His spiritual Form.They couldn't stop looking at His features.They were always in ecstacy/bliss. Even Sri Krsna is incomprehensible.If it were not so,the vedas would have clearly stated this.If He was comprehensible for our mayic intelligence,we would have just met Him and known Him and His real form. But this is not so.His spritual form,which throws Shankara and uma and rama and sanatha kumara in throes of raptures is not,CANNOT be known by the eyes of even Indra. Well, I’m just trying to make some personal sense of it all. As I said earlier: It seems to be logically impossible for a part of the whole (humans) to know or comprehend the whole (nirguna Brahman). Nirguna Brahman, (the attributeless or formless) refers to the Supreme Reality which pervades the Universe. Saguna Brahman refers to the Absolute with (knowable?) qualities. And according to Sankara, saguna Brahman and nirguna Brahman are basically the same. And what to make of the following?? In the purport of Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.7.39, Prabhupada says: "The material world is created by the energy of the Lord, which is manifested in the beginning of the creation by the penance of Brahmājī, the first living being in the creation …". http://vedabase.net/sb/2/7/39/ According to this, the material world is created by the penance (meditation) of Brahma. Thus Brahma must be Krishna. And Brahma is the first (supreme?) living being (person?) within the creation. Therefore, Brahma (Krishna) is part of the creation and cannot be the ultimate origin of creation, which must be (nirguna) Brahman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 The unlimited Lord Brahmas in the innumerable universes are usually jiva souls, not in the same ontological category as Krsna. http://vedabase.net/tlc/8/en Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Originally Posted by Sensible _bloke Have you heard of stilling the mind and being awash with waves of bliss??? That is called Samadhi ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Whoa! This is Novice talk. We know what samadhi is. Sense control that yields 'satisfaction-in-all-regards-without misgivings-and-without-hankerings' = Samadhi. Your romance-novella understanding is not the case. Samadhi is acheived by constant cultivation of yoga. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: The Nowhere-man ode: Dear Cloud in the Imagination of my waking-state-Ego-Mind-Bodily senses --Please make me better than others--so I may feel aloof and superior to other beings--and I promise to relinquish all desires when I get old & retire to a cave in the frigid himalayas where the communists cannot find me nor where fire wood can be found. Please? I'm man's best chance and may nothingness be upon you, or bust; yours truely pseudonym, Sensible _bloke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Brahman = nothing-ness; the void; the empty space in which Creation situated and thus occupies; the diametrical oppisite of Mater & Energy; the darkness within darkness described as indescribable in the first aphorisism of the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tsu; The entity that is described by the Buddha as Nirvana; The Void of the opening verses of the Bible's Book of Geneisis; That which was implied by Einstein's Theory of Relativity, E=mc2: 'Matter and energy cannot be seperated' --both of which exist within an empty field (of relativity). ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: What is being neglected is to relise that this void state is without qualities, etc etc etc --this state is blessed of its own accord! It's Pure, etc etc etc . . . :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Brahma, is the first progentitor and engineer born in this universe [this Universe is encased by a material covering and is emmited by MahaVishnu's Breathe, like so many bubbles --they are countless islands in an ocean of empty space; within which are even smaller microscopic environs for samasaric exploration life after life in all variety of eating/sleeping/mating/defending] ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Primate: It seems to be logically impossible for a part of the whole (humans) to know or comprehend the whole (nirguna Brahman). Nirguna Brahman, (the attributeless or formless) refers to the Supreme Reality which pervades the Universe. Saguna Brahman refers to the Absolute with (knowable?) qualities. And according to Sankara, saguna Brahman and nirguna Brahman are basically the same. ............................................................................... But your terminology is miss-assigned: "Brahman" is "nir-guna"; it is "without-qualities" ["devoid of the 3-modes" --that throw all the aggregate elements, ie: earth, water, fire, air, either, etc into flux.] refers to an empty space that is absolute and thus --is omnipotent due to it's source and innate potential creative constutition. Saguna Brahman = Krishna --not to be confused with material energy. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Yes, All is the same. But, All is different from the 'source of Qualities' --a Supreme Personality of Personalism. Fear-not, O Ye Puffed-up auto-crats, you may pursue getting lost in the void at any speed your whims choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Well, I’m just trying to make some personal sense of it all. As I said earlier: It seems to be logically impossible for a part of the whole (humans) to know or comprehend the whole (nirguna Brahman). Nirguna Brahman, (the attributeless or formless) refers to the Supreme Reality which pervades the Universe. Saguna Brahman refers to the Absolute with (knowable?) qualities. And according to Sankara, saguna Brahman and nirguna Brahman are basically the same.. Yes,Shankara accepts this in one of his bhasyas.He attributes the qualities of 'Satyasankalpa' and 'satyakaamah' to the Saguna brahm who has a sarira(form.).- "..yada sa sarira sankalpa yati.." Brahm Pervades the universe in His nirguna AS WELL AS SAGUNA feature. The niraakar brahm pervades the material universes BUT SO DOES PARAMATMA. Do note the very relative reference to Sri Vishnu in the karma kaanda as the inherent supresoul of all that be.The upanishads talk of a PURUSA with thousands and thousands of heads who pervades the entire mahat tattva.This Paramatma is saguna.If He were NOT,there would have been no activities of ,'Noting down the infinite karmas of EACH and EVERY jeevatma.',"Giving the fruits of these karmas in each life","MAintaining the universes with His energies" etc. There is clear reference to a SEPARATE PERSONALITY besides the Jeevatma. It has already been accepted by all the Jnanis that Nirguna Brahm has all the three energies of Jnana sakti,Sankalpa sakti and Kriya sakti.BUT they are in SUSHUPTI,dormant. Whereas all the infinte energies including the above three manifest in the Paramatma feature.Thus the inconcievable and amazing ability of the Paramatma to keep count of the karmas of the infintude of Jeevas. And what to make of the following?? In the purport of Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.7.39, Prabhupada says: "The material world is created by the energy of the Lord, which is manifested in the beginning of the creation by the penance of Brahmājī, the first living being in the creation …". http://vedabase.net/sb/2/7/39/ According to this, the material world is created by the penance (meditation) of Brahma. Thus Brahma must be Krishna. And Brahma is the first (supreme?) living being (person?) within the creation. Therefore, Brahma (Krishna) is part of the creation and cannot be the ultimate origin of creation, which must be (nirguna) Brahman. It has been clearly stated in the subala sruti,Rg veda,that Only Narayana existed before Brahma,the rudras and the adityas.This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad gita and it may be stressed that shankaracharya very clearly accepted this in the commentary of the geeta that Narayana is UNBORN and the sole origin. From such vedic evidences it is clear that Sri Narayana projects the infintude of universes as the Viraat Purusha.There has been a clear mention of Brahmadeva's fear and apparent illusion in the subala sruti.Further it is said that the Supreme PERSON entered Brahma and creted his 7 mental sons. From this the difference between Brahma and the Supreme Person,Narayana is indicated.As such,Sri Narayana is accepted as the Origin of the entire creation,as the Personality who MAINTAINS this creation and the One in whom Creation returns in mahapralaya. The veda defines the Supreme Person as : from Whom the creation is projected(Jayante),is maintained and in WHom it returns.Varuna deva's son also confirms this. Earth=> water => fire => air = >akasha=> mana => buddhi => ahankara => mahat => prakriti => purusha/Sri NArayana. Prakriti returns in the divine body of the Purusa.During creation,this happens in the reverse order. This is clearly mentioned.You may kindly confirm it. Creation IS NOT accepted AT ALL by the followers of the doctrine of Shankaracharya and thus it is a doctrine against the statements of the vedas.If Creation is accepted,AND IT HAS TO BE ACCEPTED BECOZ THE VEDAS SAY SO,it immediately means that you have to accept the saguna feature/Sri Krsna as the Unborn,Original PERSON and most importantly as Brahm. And lastly,I will again remind you of the manifestations of the THREE ENERGIES: Jnana,Sankalpa and Kriya.In this regard,the Sankalpa sakti may be noted.The vedas state - " Sa ichhat" "Sa ichhan cakre." "Only by His desire/Sankalpa ,the entire creation was brought forth." Remember the two attributes of Saguna Brahm as described by shankaracharya: Satya kaamah. Satya SANKALPA. This satya sankalpa of the Lord is precisely described in the bhagavatam. Thus there is no doubt that Sri KRsna is the Supreme Person,Whose MERE will,brings forth the infinitude of universes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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