Guest Melvin1 Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 If reality is strictly deterministic, then we cannot have free will. Everything would be eternally predetermined. Karma would be a meaningless concept, because we do not have any control or choice in our life. We would be just this conscious experience. Now what can be the purpose of that? If, on the other hand, reality is more subtle than chaos and not strictly deterministic, then we may have free will. But this must ultimately be God’s free will, because we are a part of God and we are one with God. We are God’s conscious experience of us and our Karma is God’s Karma. Now what can be the purpose of that? If God is the ultimate controller of everything we consciously experience, this must be some form of education or training, and individual free will is part of the illusion of material life. So what can be the purpose of that? Is God educating Himself? You see, if God has any purpose for us, why doesn’t He just cut the crap and get on with it? Narada Muni concludes that this so-called real world is a phantasmagoria. That we human beings don`t know if we are awake or just plain day dreaming. The best to do therefore is to surrender one`s freewill to Krsna and let Him take over and control you. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu followed this advice from Narada Muni as stated in Sri Caitanya`s Siksastaka verse 8, " I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me brokenhearted by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anything and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Narada Muni concludes that this so-called real world is a phantasmagoria. That we human beings don`t know if we are awake or just plain day dreaming. The best to do therefore is to surrender one`s freewill to Krsna and let Him take over and control you. ... But He already is controlling me. And I don't have any individual free will to surrender. Free will is an illusion, just like material causality. The only thing I have left to surrender is my personal consciousness. I guess that's the whole idea. But then again, what would be the purpose of the existence of individual consciousness to begin with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Melvin1 Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 But He already is controlling me. And I don't have any individual free will to surrender. Free will is an illusion, just like material causality. The only thing I have left to surrender is my personal consciousness. I guess that's the whole idea. But then again, what would be the purpose of the existence of individual consciousness to begin with? Personal consciousness I guess adds color to life. I like blue . What color do you like, primate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Personal consciousness I guess adds color to life. I like blue . What color do you like, primate? Exactly, in a way we must be God experiencing individual material life. So why does he want us to give that up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Melvin1 Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 Exactly, in a way we must be God experiencing individual material life. So why does he want us to give that up? The word isn`t " to give that up" but it is " to share." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 because we do not have any control or choice in our life. Just like sometimes foolish persons, they say that “Krsna, God, has kept me in this way. According to His desire, I am now in this position because nothing can happen without His desire.” This argument they say. That is another rascaldom. So Prahlada Maharaja clears, therefore, that baddhah sva-karmabhih: “It is not desired by You. I have created this situation.” Baddhah sva-karmabhih. I have been put into this condition by my own work, sva-karmabhir. Baddhah sva-karmabhir usattama. You cannot overcome this resultant action of your karma. You must suffer. The same example: just like if you infect some contaminous disease, you must suffer, similarly, we are creating karma and we are suffering. Baddhah sva-karmabhih. My work. Sastra does not say that you steal. Nobody says. Neither sastra says, nor the moral codes say, nor the law, government law, say that “You can steal whatever you like.” No. Everybody says… The government says, “Don’t steal.” The sastra, scriptures, they also say, “Don’t drink. Don’t steal. Don’t do this. Don’t.” All forbidden. But I steal. So that is sva-karmabhih. There is forbidding everywhere, but still, I steal. Then whose fault it is? It is government’s fault or my fault? If I kill, I’ll be hanged. “Thou shall not kill.” Lord Christ says, “Thou shall not kill.” But if I kill, then I must suffer. But they say, give some false argument, “Lord Christ says, ‘Thou shall not kill’ and if I kill, Christ has taken the contract that whatever sinful activities we do, he will excuse.” This is Christian document. They say that “Our Christ is so kind that whatever sinful activities we do, he will suffer for us.” Is it not? This is Christian theory. Just see foolishness. “You do something, and I suffer for that.” No. You have to suffer. You have done something wrong; you must suffer. This is the real philosophy, sva-karmabhih usattama te ’nghri-mulam pritah apavarga-saranam. So we are very much entangled in this material world. One should be very much afraid. Prahlada Maharaja says… Prahlada Maharaja was not afraid of Nrsimha-murti, but he is very much afraid of this material existence. It is really very, very fearful. People do not know the seriousness of material existence, and they continue and waste their, the chance, human being. Human form of life is a chance to rectify, but they do not care. Therefore the Krsna consciousness movement is so important. Everyone, door to door, a devotee has to go and teach them that “You are leading a very, very irresponsible life. Be responsible to your consciousness and be a devotee of Krsna. That will save you.” Thank you very much. (end) Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.16 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Mayapur, February 23, 1976 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 ... So we are very much entangled in this material world. One should be very much afraid. Prahlada Maharaja says… Prahlada Maharaja was not afraid of Nrsimha-murti, but he is very much afraid of this material existence. It is really very, very fearful. People do not know the seriousness of material existence, and they continue and waste their, the chance, human being. Human form of life is a chance to rectify, but they do not care. Therefore the Krsna consciousness movement is so important. Everyone, door to door, a devotee has to go and teach them that “You are leading a very, very irresponsible life. Be responsible to your consciousness and be a devotee of Krsna. That will save you.” ... I didn't say that "we do not have any control or choice in our life". I said: if we don't have free will, then karma would be a meaningless concept. Actually I think we do have free will, although our free will is not so much the freedom to act, as the freedom to become conscious of God. This is confirmed in your post. From the idea that everything is ultimately our consciousness and that all consciousness is ultimately God's consciousness and God is perfect, it can be derived that there must be a perfect reason or purpose for our conscious material existence. So what is this reason or purpose? Who are we exactly? And why are we here? I just don't understand.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Brahman is a description not a name or a person. God is brahman, but brahman is not God. Like people are living but living is not a person. Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results <!-- SQL query: select buch,st,en from tamil where buch=1 and (st regexp '[[:<:]]brahman[[:>:]]') order by st --> <table cellspacing="3"><tbody><tr><td align="right" valign="top">1</td> <td valign="top"> brahman</td> <td valign="top">n. (lit. `" growth "' , `" expansion "' , `" evolution "' , `" development "' `" swelling of the spirit or soul "'</td></tr></tbody></table> So, Brahman is the nature of God, but Brahman is not God per se. We cannot say that Brahman is God. God is brahman. Brahman describes God's nature, but brahman is not God. So, we can close this topic now because brahman is not God no more than growth is a person. A person grows, but growing is not a person. Is this clear now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 God is Brahman.. Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest krsnah Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Krishna is Brahman not God is Brahman ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Krishna is Brahman not God is Brahman Isn't Krishna God? Everything is Brahman.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Isn't Krishna God? Everything is Brahman.. Prabhupada referred to Krishna as God many times, so it is good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Isn't Krishna God? Everything is Brahman.. Not exactly. Maya is a transformation of brahman, but is not brahman proper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Not exactly.Maya is a transformation of brahman, but is not brahman proper. Agreed.. I called our material world (everything) a conscious projection or sub-set of total consciousness (God). And because this total consciousness ultimately is a singularity or point (brahman), our perception of a material world separate from ourselves is an illusion (maya).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest krsnah Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 am i an illusion? -------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 am i an illusion?-------------- No. You exist in God's consciousness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest krsnah Posted April 26, 2009 Report Share Posted April 26, 2009 Oh, I exists in Krishna`s consciousness not God consciousness. --------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Oh, I exists in Krishna`s consciousness not God consciousness.--------------------------- Actually........both. Krishna is beyond God. Krishna is the God of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 am i an illusion?-------------- If you think your are Krishna you are IN illusion. You seem to be saying that with your forum nik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primate Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 ... Krishna is beyond God. Krishna is the God of God. So, brahman is the all pervading conscious - and spiritual nature or substrate of God, but brahman is not God. Krishna is the supreme personality of God (beyond God); equal to our general religious concept of a personal God (the God of God). Humans are not Krishna or God, but part of Krishna (and God).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 So, brahman is the all pervading conscious - and spiritual nature or substrate of God, but brahman is not God. Krishna is the supreme personality of God (beyond God); equal to our general religious concept of a personal God (the God of God). Humans are not Krishna or God, but part of Krishna (and God).. Well, for example, God in the Bible is the creator. In Vedic lore the creator is Brahma who is a guna avatar of Vishnu. Creation of this particular universe in terms of engineering the planetary systems and life forms is the work of Brahma. So, Vishnu is the plenary portion of the plenary portion of Krishna. Not only is Krishna the Lord of Brahma, but even Vishnu or Narayana considers himself the servant of Govinda. So, Krishna is the God of millions of Gods. Krishna is even the God of Narayana. Even Lord Balaram, the first expansion of Krishna considers himself a servant of Krishna and all the Vishnu expansions come from him. Lord Balaram is the original Vishnu and partakes of the nature of a servant of Krishna. According to expert opinion, Balarāma, as the chief of the original quadruple forms, is also the original Sańkarṣaṇa. Balarāma, the first expansion of Kṛṣṇa, expands Himself in five forms: (1) Mahā-sańkarṣaṇa, (2) Kāraṇābdhiśāyī, (3) Garbhodakaśāyī, (4) Kṣīrodakaśāyī, and (5) Śeṣa. These five plenary portions are responsible for both the spiritual and material cosmic manifestations. In these five forms Lord Balarāma assists Lord Kṛṣṇa in His activities. The first four of these forms are responsible for the cosmic manifestations, whereas Śeṣa is responsible for personal service to the Lord. Śeṣa is called Ananta, or unlimited, because He assists the Personality of Godhead in His unlimited expansions by performing an unlimited variety of services. Śrī Balarāma is the servitor Godhead who serves Lord Kṛṣṇa in all affairs of existence and knowledge. Lord Nityānanda Prabhu, who is the same servitor Godhead, Balarāma, performs the same service to Lord Gaurāńga by constant association. So, Krishna is even the God of Balarama who is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Melvin1 Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Actually........both.Krishna is beyond God. Krishna is the God of God. Krsna is transcendental or inconceivable. It means He can`t be understood. To describe Krsna as the God of God only makes it more confusing to realize who really is Krsna. We should consult Srimad Bhagavatam first to know what chapter or verse in the book that says Krsna is the God of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Krsna is transcendental or inconceivable. It means He can`t be understood. To describe Krsna as the God of God only makes it more confusing to realize who really is Krsna. We should consult Srimad Bhagavatam first to know what chapter or verse in the book that says Krsna is the God of God. deva-deva — O Lord of all demigods; BG 10.15 deva-deva — O Lord of all demigods; BG 10.15 deva-īśa — O Lord of all lords; BG 11.25 deva-īśa — O God of the gods; BG 11.37 deva-īśa — O Lord of lords; BG 11.45 deva-deva — O Lord of lords; SB 1.7.26 deva-deva — O Lord of lords; SB 1.7.26 deva-deva — the worshipable of the worshiped; SB 1.8.9 deva-deva — the worshipable of the worshiped; SB 1.8.9 deva-devaḥ — the Supreme Lord of the lords; SB 1.9.24 deva-deva — O god of the demigods; SB 3.15.4 deva-deva — O god of the demigods; SB 3.15.4 It goes on an on. If you don't understand this, there is nothing more I have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Krsna is transcendental or inconceivable. Transcendental does not mean inconceivable. It means spiritual. Krishna can be understood if he chooses to let you understand. Otherwise, by your own mind you cannot know him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonic Yogi Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 We should consult Srimad Bhagavatam first to know what chapter or verse in the book that says Krsna is the God of God. Obviously, you have read some in the books of Srila Prabhupada, but as well it is obvious that you need to study a LOT more. It appears that you need to be studying more and spending less time on the internet posting in large colored fonts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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