Brahman – The absolute God of Hindus ? Confused?

[primate]

For us humans, to worship/serve Brahman, we can only worship/serve Krishna, who appears to be the only manifestation of Brahman in our ignorant perception of reality.

[ranjeetmore]

I'm sorry to say but This is speculation.Kindly do not apply logic further.

[primate]

 

I'm sorry to say but This is speculation.Kindly do not apply logic further.

I don't think I can..

[gHari]

<center><img src=http://www.kandamangalam.com/new/Portals/0/Image/BG%20Krishna%20instructs%20Arjuna.jpg width=600 height=480></center>

[gHari]

 

I don't think I can..

Then perhaps you could apply your logic to Krsna's direct statements about His relationship to Brahman. But then maybe you don't accept the Bhagavad-gita? In that case, I'm afraid I can offer no direction for our deliberations.

 

Lord Krishna says in

Bhagavad-gita 9.4

:

<center>

mayA tatam idaM sarvaM

jagad avyakta-mUrtinA

mat-sthAni sarva-bhUtAni

na cAhaM teSv avasthitaH

</center>

mayA--by Me; tatam--pervaded; idam--this; sarvam--all; jagat--cosmic manifestation; avyakta-mUrtinA--by the unmanifested form; mat-sthAni--in Me; sarva-bhUtAni--all living entities; na--not; ca--also; aham--I; teSu--in them; avasthitaH--situated.

By Me, in My unmanifested form, this entire universe is pervaded. All beings are in Me, but I am not in them.

 

 

[primate]

 

Then perhaps you could apply your logic to Krsna's direct statements about His relationship to Brahman. ...

 

Well, maybe, in the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna is sometimes talking as Brahman, because he is Brahman. When Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, "I am the ultimate origin", he is talking as Brahman. However, when He says, "I am the origin of Brahman", I don’t have a clue as to what he means. It doesn’t seem to make sense at all..

[kaisersose]

 

Well, maybe, in the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna is sometimes talking as Brahman, because he is Brahman. When Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, "I am the ultimate origin", he is talking as Brahman. However, when He says, "I am the origin of Brahman", I don’t have a clue as to what he means. It doesn’t seem to make sense at all..

 

No traditional school interprets that verse as Krishna claiming to be the source of Brahman. But then, that is obviously because their interpretations have to make sense from a much broader range of scriptures and absurdities are simply not allowed. But if we are interpreting this verse in isolation as some new groups tend to do, then anything is possible.

 

Btw, Madhva interprets this verse as Krishna being the source of Laxmi (Brahman).

 

Cheers

[primate]

 

... Madhva interprets this verse as Krishna being the source of Laxmi (Brahman).

Hm, maybe it means that Krishna is the 'nirguna aspect' of Brahman..

[gHari]

 

Hm, maybe it means that Krishna is the 'nirguna aspect' of Brahman..

 

But that last shloka 9.4 suggests that is not the case.

[primate]

 

But that last shloka 9.4 suggests that is not the case.

But that cannot be true. Krishna stated time and again that he is the Supersoul that is present in everyone’s heart. The last line also contradicts the first two lines. And "na cAhaM teSv avasthitaH" literally means: "not also I in them situated", which may refer to His transcendental situation as Saguna Brahman, which is different from our transcendental situation. So Krishna just seems to say here that he is simultaneously one with us and different. I think that's also Prabhupada's conclusion..

[gHari]

Here Lord Krishna explains that He is All that Is. He does not subtlely refer to Himself as Brahman but rather He directly uses His name, Vasudeva: everyone is a servant of Vasudeva Krishna. It is a rare soul who knowing this Truth surrenders to Krsna according to Bhagavad-gita 7.19:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>bahUnAM janmanAm ante

jJAnavAn mAM prapadyate

vAsudevaH sarvam iti

sa mahAtmA su-durlabhaH

</CENTER>

bahUnAm--many; janmanAm--repeated births and deaths; ante--after; jJAna-vAn--one who is in full knowledge; mAm--unto Me; prapadyate--surrenders; vAsudevaH--the Personality of Godhead, KRSNa; sarvam--everything; iti--thus; saH--that; mahA-AtmA--great soul; su-durlabhaH--very rare to see.

<B></FONT>

After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.</BLOCKQUOTE>

[bhaktajan]

 

if you have read through the last couple of posts you shall see that i have provided valid translations and explanations . it is ranjeet who is not doing the same ....

 

unlike gaudiya vaishnavs who hate to go by experiences (no matter how genuine it may be ) and follows only scriptures an advaitist sadhak takes into consideration direct experiences .

 

nothing here has anything to do with my personal beliefs . should you disbeleive that , feel free to get my posts verified from a scholar of advaita vedanta.................

 

"nothing here has anything to do with my personal beliefs"

 

I agree! I've been saying that all along!

 

Being a real wellwisher requires practice--So all my practice is accurate.

 

It was my belief all along --such impersonal sentiments were a crying out for mercy from Vaishnavas!

 

Good for you.

[primate]

 

Here Lord Krishna explains that He is All that Is. He does not subtlely refer to Himself as Brahman but rather He directly uses His name, Vasudeva: everyone is a servant of Vasudeva Krishna. It is a rare soul who knowing this Truth surrenders to Krsna according to Bhagavad-gita 7.19 ...

So Brahman is Krishna. I like to speculate that this means that without any ignorance or maya, we would see impersonal Brahman. And at different levels of enlightenment or self-realisation, we become consciously aware of qualitatively different manifestations of Brahman. Krishna consciousness or self-realisation is the manifestation of Brahman as the supreme person. The ultimate manifestation may be the Origin itself. And I guess you can call it either Krishna or Brahman or both.. But maybe only the person (Krishna) is relevant..

[bhaktajan]

Bhagavata-purana 6.16.22:

"The words and mind of the conditioned soul cannot approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for material names and forms are not applicable to the Lord, who is entirely spiritual, beyond the conception of gross and subtle forms. The impersonal Brahman is another of His forms. May He, by His pleasure, protect us."

 

 

 

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

The impersonal Brahman, which is the effulgence of the Lord, is described in this verse.

[primate]

 

 

... The impersonal Brahman, which is the effulgence of the Lord, is described in this verse.

No. Brahman/Krishna cannot be the 'effulgence' of anything..

[gHari]

When we approach Sri Krsna we realize Him progressively, first as the dazzling Brahman, then as the constant friend and well-wisher Paramatma, and when we get much closer He reveals Himself as Bhagavan Sri Krsna.

 

Here is a nice analogy for our journey to the Kingdom of God:

 

 

This is tattva-jJAna. Tattva-jJAna. Here it is said, tattva-mArga-agra-darzanam. This is tattva-jJAna of course, as it is said in the SrImad-BhAgavatam, brahmeti paramAtmeti bhagavAn iti zabdyate [

SB 1.2.11

]. The Absolute Truth is differently understood according to the different position of the student. The Absolute Truth ... some of them understand that Absolute Truth as impersonal Brahman. And some of them understand the Absolute Truth as localized ParamAtmA. And some of them understand the Absolute Truth as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, KRSNa, or ViSNu. They are not different. Brahman, ParamAtmA and the Supreme Personality of Godhead - they are one. They are simply different phases.

 

 

It is simply angle of vision. Just like a mountain from a very distant place, you'll see it just like hazy cloud. And if you come nearer, then you see something green, very high raised earth. That is one vision. But you are seeing the mountain.

 

 

From the distant place you see it is hazy cloud. As you come nearer, you see something green. And if you actually enter the mountain you'll find there are so many houses, so many trees, so many animals.

 

 

The vision is the same mountain. But on account of my different position, I see hazy cloud or something green or something animated. But the final stage is the varieties. A mountain, there are so many trees, so many animals, so many men, so many houses--varieties.

 

 

<img src=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Sugarloaf_Mountain_in_Rio_Brazil_-_with_cloud_layer.JPG/800px-Sugarloaf_Mountain_in_Rio_Brazil_-_with_cloud_layer.JPG height=266 width=400>

<img src= width=400 height=400>

<img src=http://img4.southernliving.com/i/2008/12/cyhg-asheville/asheville-mountains-l.jpg?400:400>

[ranjeetmore]

EVEN if We believe that Nirguna Brahm is NOT the of the effulgence of Sri KRsna,then also,it doesn't make much of a difference.

Remember,it's not about WHo came first Sri Krsna or the Nirguna Brahm.Sri KRsna is eternal and so is the Nirguna Brahm.

They are the same.

 

Dve vava Brahmano rupe Murtancaiva Amurtanca.

 

He is SIMULTANEOUSLY with form and Formless.It is VERY wrong to consider the Nirguna Brahm as different or as something very inferior to Sri Krsna.Same is the case with considering Sri Krsna as an emanation from Nirguna Brahm.

Nirguna Brahm never did and never will manifest any of the energies that are found In Sri Bhagavan.Nirguna Brahm has only two tasks.It maintains it's swarupananda and manitains it's position of supremacy(satta matra brahm).

Sri Bhagavan performs every possible feat.

The vedas state Kartum akartum anyatha kartum samarth.

 

He can perform any task,anyhow and under any circumstances or even in reverse order,in time or any circumstance.

It obviously refers to Sri Bhagavan,for He manifests all these infinitude of energies.Thus,whenever the vedas state about the extraordinary feats,qualities and features about Brahm,it refers to Sri Krsna.

 

For example,the svetasvatara upanishad describes how "He has no legs,but He is the fastest runner.He has no arms,yet He can catch anything."

This refers to the extraordinary qualities of Sri KRsna.He can perform anything even without a form.

[primate]

In his translations and purports of SB 6.16.21-23, Srila Prabhupada consistently suggests that Krishna is the source of Brahman. But this is not at all stated in the original Sanskrit texts!

 

It appears to me that SB 6.16.21 is saying: Brahman who is one without a second cannot be described or understood. He is without form and totally spiritual. May He who is the cause of all causes kindly protect us.

 

SB 6.16.22 simply states: This cosmic manifestation is caused by the Supreme Brahman. It is born in things made of earth, it is situated in the Supreme Brahman and annihilated in the same Supreme Brahman. Offer your respectful obeisances to Him.

 

Finally, SB 6.16.23 just seems to say: He who cannot be touched nor known by the mind, the intelligence, the senses and the living force, who is both within and without, expanded like the sky, I offer unto Him my respectful obeisances.

 

 

SB 6.16.21

 

vacasy uparate 'prapya

ya eko manasa saha

anama-rupas cin-matrah

so 'vyan nah sad-asat-parah

 

vacasi--when the words; uparate--cease; aprapya--not achieving the goal; yah--He who; ekah--one without a second; manasa--the mind; saha-- with; anama--with no material name; rupah--or material form; cit-matrah--totally spiritual; sah--He; avyat--may kindly protect; nah--us; sat-asat-parah--who is the cause of all causes (the supreme cause).

 

TRANSLATION

The words and mind of the conditioned soul cannot approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for material names and forms are not applicable to the Lord, who is entirely spiritual, beyond the conception of gross and subtle forms. The impersonal Brahman is another of His forms. May He, by His pleasure, protect us.

 

PURPORT

The impersonal Brahman, which is the effulgence of the Lord, is described in this verse.

 

 

SB 6.16.22

 

yasminn idam yatas cedam

tisthaty apyeti jayate

mrnmayesv iva mrj-jatis

tasmai te brahmane namah

 

Yasmin--in whom; idam--this (cosmic manifestation); yatah--from whom; ca--also; idam--this (cosmic manifestation); tisthati--stands; apyeti--dissolves; jayate--is born; mrt-mayesu--in things made of earth; iva--like; mrt-jatih--birth from earth; tasmai--unto Him; te--You; brahmane--the supreme cause; namah--respectful obeisances.

 

TRANSLATION

As pots made completely of earth are situated on earth after being created and are transformed into earth again when broken, this cosmic manifestation is caused by the Supreme Brahman, situated in the Supreme Brahman, and annihilated in the same Supreme Brahman. Therefore, since the Supreme Lord is the cause of Brahman, let us offer Him our respectful obeisances.

 

PURPORT

The Supreme Lord is the cause of the cosmic manifestation, He maintains it after creation, and after annihilation the Lord is the reservoir of everything.

 

 

SB 6.16.23

 

yan na sprsanti na vidur

mano-buddhindriyasavah

antar bahis ca vitatam

vyomavat tan nato 'smy aham

 

yat--whom; na--not; sprsanti--can touch; na--nor; viduh--can know; manah--the mind; buddhi--the intelligence; indriya--the senses; asavah--the life airs; antah--within; bahih--outside; ca--also; vitatam--expanded; vyoma-vat--like the sky; tat--unto Him; natah--bowed; asmi-- am; aham--I.

 

TRANSLATION

The Supreme Brahman emanates from the Supreme Personality of Godhead and expands like the sky. Although untouched by anything material, it exists within and without. Nonetheless, the mind, intelligence, senses and living force can neither touch Him nor know Him. I offer unto Him my respectful obeisances.

 

 

[Guest Melvin1]

Question: Who is Krsna Caitanya? Answer: The scriptural conclusion is that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the Upanisads He is described in an impersonal way as the Supreme Absolute Truth( Brahman). In the Isopanisad however the personal aspect of the Absolute Truth is mentioned where after a description of the all-pervading was made, the following verse can be found:

hiranmayena patrena

satyasyapihitam mukham

tat tvam pusann apavrnu

satya-dharmaya drstaye

 

" O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee." ( Sri Isopanisad, Mantra 15 )

 

Note: Taken from the book The Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Introduction page 7.

[ranjeetmore]

This Sri Isopanishad mantra is VERY VERY important and incredibly relevant.

 

This refers to Sri Bhagavan.Remember the Vedas glorify the Bhagavan aspect most.This saguna feature of Bhagavan manifests very opposing qualities.

He is within each and every atom and yet He is without evrything in Goloka.

It is very relevant to consider ,"Purnasya purna.." verse.

It states that "If you take whole out of the whole,He still remains WHOLE."

Thus,Primate,the notion that Saguna Brahm cannot be simultaneously present within every atom and yet still be present in His entirety outside of everything,is wrong.

 

Also,Primate,I would like to point out that the verse,"Yada parshya pashyate rukma varnam..." is very rightfully explained as,"The Supreme Person,who is the source of Brahm"

for the concerned acharya clearly quoted it when stating that,"Sri Krsna is the basis of Nirguna Brahm."

 

You may find it very hard to believe but the Advaitins INTERPRET (1)the vedic mantras.It can be resolved only by scholarly debate and not by us.But i have full faith that the meaning is the above one and not,"The Person Who has His source in Brahm."

 

 

(1). This can be clarified further: The advaitins always consider the word 'aatma' as Brahm.But,according to the context,the word 'atma' has been used seldom for Brahm also.i.e. Atma is used for denoting 'paramatma'

Such considerations obviously lead to the confusion of 'Brahm is atma.'

 

But you may raise the objection,"How do WE know that this atma is supposed to denote Paramatma only ??" and you may accuse us of hypocrisy for Vaishnavas state that the vedic meanings are to be taken directly.

This has been resolved by Srila Veda Vyasa himself in the vedanta,"Na anuh.Atah shruteh hritichen na"

He states that the Jeevatma is Anu/atomic.Sometimes the paramatma is referred as Atma in the Vedas and hence the Jeevatma shouldn't be considered as infinite due to this.

In this same way,an advaitic translation of the above verse can very well be as,"The person Who has His origin in Brahm."

[primate]

I don’t deny the personal (Saguna) aspect/quality of Brahman as Vishnu, Krishna, Bhagavan, Para-Brahman, etc. However, in Vedanta the creation and the creator are one and the same. They cannot be separated. The dance dissolves in the dancer the moment he stops dancing. Krishna is the dance, the manifest Person. And (Nirguna) Brahman is the dancer, the Origin. And again, I am quite convinced that in the Bhagavad gita, Krishna (the dance) sometimes speaks as Brahman (the dancer), because He is Brahman.

 

As to your quotes:

 

Isopanisad 15:

 

hiranmayena patrena

satyasyapihitam mukham

tat tvam pusann apavrnu

satya-dharmaya drstaye

 

hiranmayena--by a golden effulgence; patrena--by a dazzling covering; satyasya--of the Supreme Truth; apihitam--covered; mukham--the face; tat--that covering; tvam--Yourself; pusan--O sustainer; apavrnu--kindly remove; satya--pure; dharmaya--unto the devotee; drstaye--for exhibiting.

 

This verse seems to say that the Supreme Truth is covered by the dazzling golden effulgence of the Lord. I could agree with that..

 

Isopanisad Invocation:

 

Om Purna madah purna midam, purnaat purna mudachyate,

purnasya purna maadaya, purna mevavah shishyate.

 

Om--the Complete Whole; purnam--perfectly complete; adah--that; purnam--perfectly complete; idam--this phenomenal world; purnat--from the all-perfect; purnam--complete unit; udacyate--is produced; purnasya--of the Complete Whole; purnam--completely, all; adaya--having been taken away; purnam--the complete balance; eva--even; avasisyate--is remaining.

 

This verse appears to say: Even if all is taken away from the perfectly complete unit Om, from which the perfectly complete phenomenal world is produced, the complete unit [Om] is remaining..

[gHari]

I wonder what literal meaning we can get from Krsna's words here in <a href=http://vedabase.net/bg/7/24/en target=new>Bhagavad-gita 7.24</a>:<BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>avyaktaM vyaktim ApannaM

manyante mAm abuddhayaH

paraM bhAvam ajAnanto

mamAvyayam anuttamam

</CENTER>

avyaktam--nonmanifested; vyaktim--personality; Apannam--achieved; manyante--think; mAm--Me; abuddhayaH--less intelligent persons; param--supreme; bhAvam--existence; ajAnantaH--without knowing; mama--My; avyayam--imperishable; anuttamam--the finest.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

[primate]

Different scholars appear to agree here more or less..

 

http://vedabase.net/bg/7/24/en

 

avyaktam--nonmanifested; vyaktim--personality; Apannam--achieved; manyante--think; mAm--Me; abuddhayaH--less intelligent persons; param--supreme; bhAvam--existence; ajAnantaH--without knowing; mama--My; avyayam--imperishable; anuttamam--the finest.

 

Translation:

Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

 

http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/

 

avyaktam--the unmanifest; vyaktim--existence; apannam--as coming into; manyante--regard; mam--Me; abuddhayah--the spiritually deficient; param--supreme; bhavam--state of being; ajanantah--unable to comprehend; mama--My; avyayam--imperishable; anuttamam--exalted.

 

Translation:

Unable to comprehend My imperishable, exalted and supreme state of being; the spiritually deficient regard Me as the unmanifest coming into existence.

[ranjeetmore]

It is true that God Himself becomes the material creation.This creation is Maya shakti vishisht Sri Krsna.

 

BUT

This doesn't mean that the creation and Brahm is non different in original Swarupa.If this were so,Brahm would have been comprehensible by the material intelligence.But this is not so- creation is mayic and Bhagavan is Divya.

The vedanta clearly DIFFERENTIATES between Para brahm and Jeeva.

It states,"Jagad vyapar varjam"

The Supreme Person CREATES,ENTERS and DESTROYS the entire material manifestation.This is why He is different from everyone else(Jeevas)

 

This is in accordance with one of the definitions of brahm in the vedas,"By Whom,The material creation is PROJECTED,MAINTAINED and DESTROYED,He is Brahm."

This above description comes in a conversation held between Varuna and his son,Bhrgu.

 

It is very easy to find the evidence of Narayana to be that Person.

THus saying that the Supreme Truth is indifferent in nature with the jada creation is wrong.It does not conform with the vedanta(He ENTERS the creation. and DESTROYS it.)

This means that the Supreme Person is BEYOND the reach of prakriti even.This itself is enough to establish that Supreme Person as eternal.There is therefore No question of His 'originating' from Nirguna brahm.In fact,ALL the Visible,Invisible(prakata,aparakata) emanations have their origin in the Supreme Person.If ALL of the visible,Invisble emanations were from that One Supreme Person ALONE,it is VERY wrong to consider that He emanated from Something or some tattva(for it would be speculation).

 

Post # 122 throws ample light on this issue.

 

P.S. : I am very very grateful towards the GVs for providing verses from the BG according to the context.I am very unable to have such knowledge of the divine song.

[primate]

Bhagavad-gita as it is 10.42

 

 

atha va bahunaitena

kim jnatena tavarjuna

vistabhyaham idam krtsnam

ekamsena sthito jagat

 

atha va -- or; bahuna -- many; etena -- by this kind; kim -- what; jnatena -- by knowing; tava -- your; arjuna -- O Arjuna; vistabhya -- pervading; aham -- I; idam -- this; krtsnam -- entire; eka -- by one; amsena -- part; sthitah -- am situated; jagat -- universe.

 

TRANSLATION

 

But what need is there, Arjuna, for all this detailed knowledge? With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire universe.

 

 

The verse doesn’t say that the Supersoul 'enters' all things. It says: I 'am' all things. And that includes you. (And if the entire universe disappears, the Supersoul remains as Brahman.) And this is exactly what BG 7.24 implies..