relevence of truthfulness in sadhana

[sambya]

i was just wondering exactly how much relevence does truthfulness carry in the course of one's spiritual sadhana . ancient texts have glorified truthfulness as the highest virtue . we have the legends of people like yudishtira and raja harishchandra etc . but in todays context is it really that easy ?

 

some people are inclined to belief that any negative act , when done for god conciousness or propagating his divine name does'nt amount to lie or misdeed . this is so because the ultimate motive was good . but such a belief raises more problems than it solves . for we find people turning inclined to commit some small misdeeds and pass it off in name of god .

 

for example if one preaches false glories of his faith just to turn someone god conscious , wouldnt that amount to falsehood ?

 

and is falsehood really a big obstacle in progressing spiritually ?

 

 

what do you think ?

[bhaktajan]

i was just wondering exactly how much relevence does truthfulness carry in the course of one's Banking Ventures.

 

Ancient texts have glorified truthfulness as the highest virtue.

 

We have the legends of people like Benjamin Franklin and George Washington.

 

But in todays context is it really that easy ?

 

Some people are inclined to belief that any negative act , when done for Financial Profit or propagating New Investment Schemes, doesn't amount to lie or misdeed . this is so because the ultimate motive was good . but such a belief raises more problems than it solves . for we find people turning inclined to commit some small misdeeds and pass it off in name of Business.

 

for example if one preaches false glories of his Business Venture just to turn someone good custumer, wouldnt that amount to falsehood ?

 

and is falsehood really a big obstacle in progressing Finanially ?

 

 

what do you think ?

[Sonic Yogi]

Here is a nice example of how and why sometimes not telling the truth can be good and desirable.

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.13.37

 

sañjaya uvāca

 

nāhaḿ veda vyavasitaḿ

 

pitror vaḥ kula-nandana

 

gāndhāryā vā mahā-bāho

 

muṣito 'smi mahātmabhiḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

sañjayaḥ uvāca — Sañjaya said; na — not; aham — I; veda — know; vyavasitam — determination; pitroḥ — of your uncles; vaḥ — your; kula-nandana — O descendant of the Kuru dynasty; gāndhāryāḥ — of Gāndhārī; vā — or; mahā-bāho — O great King; muṣitaḥ — cheated; asmi — I have been; mahā-ātmabhiḥ — by those great souls.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Sañjaya said: My dear descendant of the Kuru dynasty, I have no information of the determination of your two uncles and Gāndhārī. O King, I have been cheated by those great souls.

 

PURPORT

 

That great souls cheat others may be astonishing to know, but it is a fact that great souls cheat others for a great cause. It is said that Lord Kṛṣṇa also advised Yudhiṣṭhira to tell a lie before Droṇācārya, and it was also for a great cause. The Lord wanted it, and therefore it was a great cause. Satisfaction of the Lord is the criterion of one who is bona fide, and the highest perfection of life is to satisfy the Lord by one's occupational duty. That is the verdict of Gītā and Bhāgavatam.* Dhṛtarāṣṭra and Vidura, followed by Gāndhārī, did not disclose their determination to Sañjaya, although he was constantly with Dhṛtarāṣṭra as his personal assistant. Sañjaya never thought that Dhṛtarāṣṭra could perform any act without consulting him. But Dhṛtarāṣṭra's going away from home was so confidential that it could not be disclosed even to Sañjaya. Sanātana Gosvāmī also cheated the keeper of the prison house while going away to see Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and similarly Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī also cheated his priest and left home for good to satisfy the Lord. To satisfy the Lord, anything is good, for it is in relation with the Absolute Truth. We also had the same opportunity to cheat the family members and leave home to engage in the service of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Such cheating was necessary for a great cause, and there is no loss for any party in such transcendental fraud.

[mahak]

the earth planet can tolerate any weight. However, lies sink her into the mire of oblivion. Lies may be necessary, such as described on another topic, where Dharma personified, King Yudhisthira, allowed a lie to be told to Dronacarya. He didnt tell a lie, and the utterance was not a lie eaither, because his brother, Bhima, killed an elephant named Aswattama and cried, "Aswattama is dead!" However, Yudhisthira did not clarify, even though he had opportunity to do so, and Drona lost his will to fight, thinking his son Aswattama was dead, and he himself was vanquished (to death).

 

Now we may think that lie was justified, and im my thinking, it was, because there was no way whatsoever that the Pandava Army could defeat Kurus led by Dronacarya. But Yudhisthira suffered grave consequences. His innocent child was killed in his sleep by Aswattama, and he also set foot on the planet of death for the first time because of his untruthful moment. Before Drona heard this misrepresentation about aswattama's death in Yudhisthiras presence, Yudhisthira's feet never touched the surface of this realm. He actually lost forever his reknown as the personification of dharma and truthfulness. Even though the lie was pure devotional service, in the rasa of chivalry, there was still the lesson that lies are intolerable, and never justified. As Im not a scholar, I cannot refer to SB citation, but there is info there about how the earth planet cannot tolerate even the slightest of lies.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana]

Yes, even Maharaja Yudhisthira had to pay for his lie, what to speak of us, common people? Our movement has paid a dear price for the lies we used to further our causes. The end does not justify the means. If the end is to be pure, the means must be pure as well.

[AncientMariner]

I remember reading somewhere in Prabhupada's books and it mentioned the concept of acting duplicitously for Krishna. I don't know exactly what that means but I assume only a real high level devotee could actually do something like that with sincerity.

 

It seems in the history of Iskcon there has been some duplicitous behavior but it has been mostly gurus pretending to be more advanced than they actually are rather than using seeming duplicitousness to fool the materialists or something like that for the betterment of Krishna Consciousness.

[Kulapavana]

 

I remember reading somewhere in Prabhupada's books and it mentioned the concept of acting duplicitously for Krishna. I don't know exactly what that means but I assume only a real high level devotee could actually do something like that with sincerity.

 

If you cant relay on what guru says as being true, what is the use of such a guru? Sudras can lie, vaishyas can lie, kshatrias can lie, but brahmanas can not tell lies. Satyam - truthfulness is a quality of a brahmana.

[visnujana]

 

i was just wondering exactly how much relevence does truthfulness carry in the course of one's spiritual sadhana .

In social dealings vaisnavas follow their varna and in terms of vaisnava-sadhana truthfulness means anyabhilasita-sunyam, full dedication, having no desires other than the desire to serve Krishna. Whatever activities please & benefit Krishna and his devotees is accepted as truthful actions. This kind of truthfulness is the heart of process of bhakti. It is similar to spiritual loyalty.. and is possible to the degree one's heart is pure (free from material desires).

On the other hand externally it may manifest differently in the behavior of the vaisnavas. For example, a vaisnava will cheat off insincere people who approach them with ulterior motives. Srila Gaurakisore dasa babaji fearing many materialistic people coming to him would hide himself in a toilet. They would say, Oh, babaji please come out, we want to ask you some questions; and he would answer, I can't, I am having a terrible stomach problem.

A madhyama-adhikari vaisnava will always apply negligence to those who 'seek' their association but are not actually qualified to receive their instructions, due to lack of sincerity (having ulterior motives). In many cases the negligence might be executed as what from material perspective could be seen as cheating. Just as in the example above. In other cases vaisnavas may even scare people way by some harsh words, which would also be a kind of 'cheating', because in the eyes of those people it would look like 'not a saintly behavior'.

This is a duty of a madhyama-adhikari or a devotee acting on the level of a madhyama-adhikari in relation to a particular group of people. But this is all done only for the spiritual benefit of the people. That's why it fits into the above mentioned 'definition of vaisnava truthfulness'. An ignore is also a kind of instructions and can 'work' even better than words in certain situations. Besides it helps to save valuable time and energy for serving Krishna. More on this in Jaiva-Dharma, chapter 8.

I think some other applications of the same principle have been explained above by the words of Srila Prabhupada quoted by Sonic Yogi.

[Kulapavana]

 

Whatever activities please & benefit Krishna and his devotees is accepted as truthful actions.

 

This approach was used by many devotees in the past to perform all kinds of ugra-karma, especially in fundraising. Sure, the bricks are there to prove the 'benefit' of such actions, but the bad publicity is there as well, turning many people away from our doors.

 

You may claim that you know what is pleasing and beneficial to Krsna, but that is mostly just an empty or unprovable claim. It is safer to judge things by the results. If you are dishonest 'for Krsna' most people will eventually figure that out and reject you as a fraud. Is Krsna pleased that His devotees cheat in His name? Is there any shastric basis for such a claim?

 

If you pretend for example that you discovered an ancient Upanishad which in fact was simply written by you to bolster your preaching, you will eventually be exposed. That is cheating too. Short term benefit, long term loss. Sreyas and preyas.

[visnujana]

Kulapavana,

Yes, I was aware of that.. and thank you. That was important to note. I pretty much covered all known to me instances or rather principles of how the 'dishonesty for Krishna's sake' may be used. That is in regard to madhyama-vaisnava's behaivor. All other rare instances, in my understanding, will have to be directly connected to Krishna. For example, Krishna pretty much wanted Yudhisthira to say a lie (about Drona's death).. a lot of tricks are going on in Vrindavan in Krishna's pastimes, off course, etc. Off course, not too many would mind that kind of trickery anyway..

 

You may claim that you know what is pleasing and beneficial to Krsna, but that is mostly just an empty or unprovable claim.

Yes, people always have the liberty to try to substantiate or rationalize their activities, and they are often inclined to do so..

 

It is safer to judge things by the results. If you are dishonest 'for Krsna' most people will eventually figure that out and reject you as a fraud.

This is very true. In the examples I mentioned above the dignity of devotees is always protected by Krishna. Plus they do act for other people's benefit, and thus their genuine concern ultimately will always be appreciated, which, off course won't happen if the cheaters are hypocritical devotees seeking to gain some material benefit from people.

 

 

Is Krsna pleased that His devotees cheat in His name? Is there any shastric basis for such a claim?

I was specifically talking about madhyama-vaisnavas. They practically know what's pleasing to Krishna and what's not. They don't need to rationalize. They already know the sastra in a very deep practical way. They are always ready to substantiate their activities with sastric evidences as well. But the hypocritical devotees can only create a big dispute if they try to substantiate their improper activities, which contradict not only vaisnava sastra but also worldly moral principles.

[AncientMariner]

 

If you cant relay on what guru says as being true, what is the use of such a guru? Sudras can lie, vaishyas can lie, kshatrias can lie, but brahmanas can not tell lies. Satyam - truthfulness is a quality of a brahmana.

 

 

Apparently the Buddha used some techniques to fool the materialists and even some Vaisnavas say that Prabhupada was fooling the Christians when he said Christ was an avatar so it does seem there are some examples of Vaisnavas being less than completely truthful. I guess the difference is they are ultimately doing those techniques to try and advance people spiritually whereas a phony guru is just lieing to gain admiration or an easy lifestyle but I agree with you there is no value in a guru that lies for their own personal sense gratification but I do not begrudge the Buddha for fooling the materialists. I personally dont think Prabhupada was lieing when he said Christ was an avatar but I have met devotees that think he was.

[visnujana]

How about the title 'Easy Journey to other Planets'?.. One of the first books written by Srila Prabhupada in the mid 60-s just about the time when the first spaceships went to cosmos, etc. Although the book does talk about 'different' planets, it nevertheless looks to me as a little transcendental trickery.

[Kulapavana]

 

I pretty much covered all known to me instances or rather principles of how the 'dishonesty for Krishna's sake' may be used. That is in regard to madhyama-vaisnava's behaivor. All other rare instances, in my understanding, will have to be directly connected to Krishna. For example, Krishna pretty much wanted Yudhisthira to say a lie (about Drona's death).. a lot of tricks are going on in Vrindavan in Krishna's pastimes, off course, etc.

 

The way I understand it, madhyama-vaishnavas must practice honesty in all their dealings, maybe with the exception of trying to save someone's life. If an uttama-bhakta practices some form of deception it is certainly not a part of their sadhana but ultimately it also must pass the standard of 'judging by the results'.

 

Examples from Krsna-leela should never be used to justify anything. What happens in the leela stays in the leela. If Lord Krsna stands next to you and tells you to tell a lie for His sake, that would be leela, but who can make such a claim of being part of the Lord's leela here and now? Those who tell you Krsna is telling them do something crooked, must be scrutinized most diligently to make sure they are not simply making it up.

[Kulapavana]

 

How about the title 'Easy Journey to other Planets'?.. One of the first books written by Srila Prabhupada in the mid 60-s just about the time when the first spaceships went to cosmos, etc. Although the book does talk about 'different' planets, it nevertheless looks to me as a little transcendental trickery.

 

At that time Srila Prabhupada used the opportunity of people's great interest in space travel to promote Krsna-consciousness. However, certain statements in that book (especially those relating to anti-matter being spirit) are based on assumptions which have been scientifically disproven in later years, and that is why this book is no longer being distributed.

[suchandra]

 

At that time Srila Prabhupada used the opportunity of people's great interest in space travel to promote Krsna-consciousness. However, certain statements in that book (especially those relating to anti-matter being spirit) are based on assumptions which have been scientifically disproven in later years, and that is why this book is no longer being distributed.

 

This is of course not true. Prabhupada says in this book that anti-matter and matter don't dissolve into nothing when they collide, rather he highlights that anti-matter is indestructible. That someone scientifically disproved that anti-matter is not indestructible is rather a false propaganda.

[Kulapavana]

 

This is of course not true. Prabhupada says in this book that anti-matter and matter don't dissolve into nothing when they collide, rather he highlights that anti-matter is indestructible. That someone scientifically disproved that anti-matter is not indestructible is rather a false propaganda.

 

The point is that anti-matter discovered by scientiststs has been proven to be just another form of material particles - not spiritual energy as Prabhupada writes in EJTOP. And it has also been proven that anti-matter is NOT indestructible (see antihydrogen experiments described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihydrogen )

[Kulapavana]

Truthfulness is also the ability to recognize and admit to an error.

[AncientMariner]

 

The way I understand it, madhyama-vaishnavas must practice honesty in all their dealings, maybe with the exception of trying to save someone's life. If an uttama-bhakta practices some form of deception it is certainly not a part of their sadhana but ultimately it also must pass the standard of 'judging by the results'.

 

Examples from Krsna-leela should never be used to justify anything. What happens in the leela stays in the leela. If Lord Krsna stands next to you and tells you to tell a lie for His sake, that would be leela, but who can make such a claim of being part of the Lord's leela here and now? Those who tell you Krsna is telling them do something crooked, must be scrutinized most diligently to make sure they are not simply making it up.

 

 

What kind of devotee or guru do you think Prabhupada was? I remember reading in his books that he said he met face to face with Krishna at some point in his life so does that make him part of Krishna leela or not?

[Kulapavana]

 

What kind of devotee or guru do you think Prabhupada was? I remember reading in his books that he said he met face to face with Krishna at some point in his life so does that make him part of Krishna leela or not?

 

In general, being part of the leela is recognized as the time when a devotee directly takes part in pastimes of Krsna's incarnation physically present here on earth.

[visnujana]

I am sure a lot of people have become devotees because EJTOP has been going out for years. So, it worked, didn't it? Scientists always prove and disprove something.. If devotees have decided not to distribute this book any longer, there are so many other books to distribute.

I have heard that devotees even printed this book in Russian language in India and would distribute it in Delhi airport to the Russian tourists in the early 80-s when the movement in then USSR was still illegal and heavily oppressed by KGB; and there were no other books translated or/and printed there yet.

[Narasingh]

 

i was just wondering exactly how much relevence does truthfulness carry in the course of one's spiritual sadhana . ancient texts have glorified truthfulness as the highest virtue . we have the legends of people like yudishtira and raja harishchandra etc . but in todays context is it really that easy ?

 

some people are inclined to belief that any negative act , when done for god conciousness or propagating his divine name does'nt amount to lie or misdeed . this is so because the ultimate motive was good . but such a belief raises more problems than it solves . for we find people turning inclined to commit some small misdeeds and pass it off in name of god .

 

for example if one preaches false glories of his faith just to turn someone god conscious , wouldnt that amount to falsehood ?

 

and is falsehood really a big obstacle in progressing spiritually ?

 

 

what do you think ?

There are two types of falsehoods. One knowingly done and another unknowingly done. If one's faith inspires them to speak of it in a certain way, how can we determine if it is false. Faith is certainly subjective and discussion of the validity or lack of validity of one's subjective experience will only bring about argument. Lying serves destabilize faith. The economic state of the world is a good indication of what happens when lies are spoken instead of truths. People have no faith in markets, and markets are losing value hand over fist. Truth stabilizes faith and faith is fundamentally what this world runs on. My two cents

[Gita Dharma]

If you cant relay on what guru says as being true, what is the use of such a guru? Sudras can lie, vaishyas can lie, kshatrias can lie, but brahmanas can not tell lies. Satyam - truthfulness is a quality of a brahmana.

[Gita Dharma]

<center>Chapter 17. The Divisions of Faith</center>

 

TEXT 15

 

 

anudvega-karam vakyam

satyam priya-hitam ca yat

svadhyayabhyasanam caiva

van-mayam tapa ucyate

 

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

anudvega--not agitating; karam--producing; vakyam--words; satyam--truthful; priya--dear; hitam--beneficial; ca--also; yat--which; svadhyaya--Vedic study; abhyasanam--practice; ca--also; eva--certainly; van-mayam--of the voice; tapah--austerity; ucyate--is said to be.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Austerity of speech consists in speaking truthfully and beneficially and in avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly.

 

__________

 

 

<center>Chapter 18. Conclusion--The Perfection of Renunciation</center> TEXT 42

 

 

samo damas tapah saucam

ksantir arjavam eva ca

jnanam vijnanam astikyam

brahma-karma svabhava-jam

 

 

 

 

SYNONYMS

 

samah--peacefulness; damah--self-control; tapah--austerity; saucam--purity; ksantih--tolerance; arjavam--honesty; eva--certainly; ca--and; jnanam--knowledge; vijnanam--wisdom; astikyam--religiousness; brahma--of a brahmana; karma--duty; svabhava-jam--born of his own nature.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work.

 

[suchandra]

 

The point is that anti-matter discovered by scientiststs has been proven to be just another form of material particles - not spiritual energy as Prabhupada writes in EJTOP. And it has also been proven that anti-matter is NOT indestructible (see antihydrogen experiments described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihydrogen )

 

Prabhupada says in the booklet that scientists believe that anti-matter would be the opposite of matter in that sense, that if both collide, everything would dissolve. In other words, Prabhupada wants to say that scientists believe that matter is just like 1 and anti-matter is -1. When both are colliding it gets = 0. Prabhupada says nowhere in this book, that scientists have a proper understanding what is anti-matter. That ISKCON considers that Prabhupada is wrong, this book shouldnt be distributed anymore, is a clear case of Vaishnava aparadha and yet another proof that ISKCOnites don't consider Prabhupada as bona fide acarya.

[Kulapavana]

 

Prabhupada says nowhere in this book, that scientists have a proper understanding what is anti-matter.

 

Neither does Prabhupada understand the anti-matter that was discovered by the scientists. Scientists did not discover spirit in their experiments as Prabhupada assumes - they simply discovered a different type of material energy. Thus the conversation is full of confusion.

 

By his own admission Prabhupada was not a scientist and unfortunately some of his opinions regarding scientific matters were simply wrong. He was wrong on the antimatter being spirit and he was wrong on the Moon distance to Earth for example. Pretending otherwise is not being truthful.

 

People of the world do not have a problem with Srila Prabhupada making an honest mistake in matters he was not expert on. People of the world have a problem with his disciples refusing to face the facts and be truthful in this matter. Liars are dime a dozen in this world, truthful people are rare and universally respected.