relevence of truthfulness in sadhana

[suchandra]

 

Neither does Prabhupada understand the anti-matter that was discovered by the scientists. Scientists did not discover spirit in their experiments as Prabhupada assumes - they simply discovered a different type of material energy. Thus the conversation is full of confusion.

 

By his own admission Prabhupada was not a scientist and unfortunately some of his opinions regarding scientific matters were simply wrong. He was wrong on the antimatter being spirit and he was wrong on the Moon distance to Earth for example. Pretending otherwise is not being truthful.

 

People of the world do not have a problem with Srila Prabhupada making an honest mistake in matters he was not expert on. People of the world have a problem with his disciples refusing to face the facts and be truthful in this matter. Liars are dime a dozen in this world, truthful people are rare and universally respected.

 

Prabhupada didn't care what your scientists really mean by their "anti-matter" speculations. Why should he? According sastra modern scientists are not even human beings. Please re-study tvi-pada-pasu section. Prabhupada was wrong and your scientists are right?

At least Prabhupada made you to become a devotee of Lord Krsna. Not an easy job nowadays.

[AncientMariner]

 

Prabhupada didn't care what your scientists really mean by their "anti-matter" speculations. Why should he? According sastra modern scientists are not even human beings. Please re-study tvi-pada-pasu section. Prabhupada was wrong and your scientists are right?

At least Prabhupada made you to become a devotee of Lord Krsna. Not an easy job nowadays.

 

 

Yeah, I was a Biology major in college for awhile and found it depressing as hell to study science so I just started reading a bunch of religous and philosophy books to combat the incredibly depressing material view of the Universe that science is boxed into. In general I do not put much faith in anything scientists come up with and would even venture to a lot of them are serving the military industrial complex eugenics programs either knowingly or unknowingly.

 

 

The mystic beauty of Krishna makes material science seem like a dried up turd lieing on the side of the road. I don't begrudge scientists for making a living at thier professions or anything as long as they don't take themselves too seriously but when they start really believing the stuff they are coming up with they can be downright dangerous.

 

 

My uncle is a medical doctor and he calls his bachelors of science his (B)ull(S)hit degree and he calls his masters of science his (M)ore of the (S)ame degree and he calls his PHD his (P)iled (H)igh (D)eeper degree. He is refreshing because he is part of the standardized death cult priesthood of Medical doctors but has enough sense of humor to laugh at all the crapola involved in the scientific and medical community.

 

 

Hopefully I don't get knee jerk reactions if I offend anyone who works in or supports the modern scientific and medical communities as I am sure a lot of people in those professions are in the mode of goodness. I personally like to take control of my own health through diet and excersize and stay away from doctors unless there is some extreme emergency so I do feel there is a role for specialist doctors and I do not universally condemn modern science or medicine but I do feel like the big corporations etc. are using modern science and medicine to set up a fascist scientific dictatorship.

[visnujana]

Scientists are little jivas.. A lot of them are actually engaged in some glorious things even if they themselves don't know... The Internet was invented, computers, airplanes, etc. and each time those things are used in the Lord's service those little jivas get some sukriti, some pious merits. Aren't they quite fortunate? Off course, some other scientists can be quite envious to the Lord and they can use their 'knowledge' against devotion, but I hope those are much fewer in number.

[suchandra]

 

Yeah, I was a Biology major in college for awhile and found it depressing as hell to study science so I just started reading a bunch of religous and philosophy books to combat the incredibly depressing material view of the Universe that science is boxed into. In general I do not put much faith in anything scientists come up with and would even venture to a lot of them are serving the military industrial complex eugenics programs either knowingly or unknowingly.

 

 

The mystic beauty of Krishna makes material science seem like a dried up turd lieing on the side of the road. I don't begrudge scientists for making a living at thier professions or anything as long as they don't take themselves too seriously but when they start really believing the stuff they are coming up with they can be downright dangerous.

 

 

My uncle is a medical doctor and he calls his bachelors of science his (B)ull(S)hit degree and he calls his masters of science his (M)ore of the (S)ame degree and he calls his PHD his (P)iled (H)igh (D)eeper degree. He is refreshing because he is part of the standardized death cult priesthood of Medical doctors but has enough sense of humor to laugh at all the crapola involved in the scientific and medical community.

 

 

Hopefully I don't get knee jerk reactions if I offend anyone who works in or supports the modern scientific and medical communities as I am sure a lot of people in those professions are in the mode of goodness. I personally like to take control of my own health through diet and excersize and stay away from doctors unless there is some extreme emergency so I do feel there is a role for specialist doctors and I do not universally condemn modern science or medicine but I do feel like the big corporations etc. are using modern science and medicine to set up a fascist scientific dictatorship.

Thanks Ancient Mariner, great post, great realizations. Yes, you're right, we have to become decent preachers - best always using a humorous word choice. Since great Vaishnavas like Kula Prabhu are on the payroll of a science lab they somehow are pushed in the position like Arjuna's relatives who were on the payroll of Duryodhana. But still, like Bhismadeva and Karna, were all great devotees.

[sambya]

 

According sastra modern scientists are not even human beings.

 

thats interesting !! which text ?

[sant]

are you calling the scientists reptilian huamanoids as according to the illuminati theory?or are they greys?

 

how are scientists not humans?

which shastra says that?

what is "tvi-pada-pasu section"

[sant]

THIS IS NOT GOOD CLEAN JOKES FORUM

 

 

According sastra modern scientists are not even human beings.

[suchandra]

 

thats interesting !! which text ?

 

Thanks Sambhya for asking this question, yes right, we always have to back up by sruti.

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.19:

 

sva-vid-varahosta-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh na yat-karna-pathopeto jatu nama gadagrajah

 

Translation: “Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Sri Krsna, the deliverer from evils.”

 

Prabhupada: "Therefore Vedas are called sruti. Sruti means this is not experimental knowledge. This knowledge is acquired by hearing, that’s all. If you have got nice receptive power through the ear, then your life can be successful. You don’t require to use any other sense. This one sense will make you correct. Therefore those who are not taking advantage of this facility of hearing… He may be a very big man in the estimation of persons who are like dogs, asses, camels, and such nice animals. You can say, “Oh, here is a big man, and… Mr. such and such, such a great politician, great scientist, great… So we must praise.” But the Bhagavata says, “Whether he has given any aural reception about Krsna, that is the test.” No. He has no knowledge about Krsna. Then he must be praised by persons who are like camel, asses, dogs, hogs. That means, “No human being will praise him.” If he is voted or praised, the vote must be coming from the asses, dogs, hogs, like that. That is going on. Asses, hogs, dogs, camels, they are giving vote."

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.19

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Los Angeles, June 14, 1972

[sambya]

I think the problem is with those scientists who take an adamant and stubborn stand in disbelieving god . true scientists are always open minded and never rejects anything . he always takes into consideration the case of god . and finally even if he disbelieves in god he would say that 'as of now there is nothing to conclusively prove the existence of god' rather than saying 'there is no god' .

 

but the stubborn ones reject his existence right at the begining which itself is highly unscientific . for true science follows the path of experiment , observation and inference . rejecting any phenomenon or hypothesis without undergoing these three is wrong and unscientific . i guess it is this group that many people find irritating .

 

infact there are many scientists who are strong believers in existence of god . many directly practice religion . but yes , one thing is for sure , most of them are inclined to accept god as put forward by modern neo-vedanta or the traditional orthodox advaitic vedanta .

[sant]

HE says like dogs cats

does he mean literallyt that they are dogs and asses.

[Kulapavana]

It is obvious that Prabhupada wanted to impress the scientific community by his preaching. See this quote for example:

 

"This preaching to the scientists is the next phase. If we can make an

impression in the mind of the scientists then we can easily spread Krishna

consciousness throughout the world"

From a letter to TKG of August 7, 1977

 

However, the scientists were not impressed.

 

It is not enough to merely call people hogs, camels, and asses if they don't take your words for granted because you claim to represent the vedic knowledge. You have to present fact based information that can be practically verified in order to be taken seriously by the scientific community. You have to first build your credibility in that way before you can attempt to present more esoteric subject matters.

 

If you simply presents your 'Bible' and expect scientists to blindly accept it or be condemned as 'animals', you will most certainly fail in such 'preaching'.

 

Especially if you also insist that such basic scientific knowledge as distance to the Moon (which has been measured in many different verifiable ways since antiquity) is all wrong.

[Xochitl]

 

Apparently the Buddha used some techniques to fool the materialists and even some Vaisnavas say that Prabhupada was fooling the Christians when he said Christ was an avatar so it does seem there are some examples of Vaisnavas being less than completely truthful. I guess the difference is they are ultimately doing those techniques to try and advance people spiritually whereas a phony guru is just lieing to gain admiration or an easy lifestyle but I agree with you there is no value in a guru that lies for their own personal sense gratification but I do not begrudge the Buddha for fooling the materialists. I personally dont think Prabhupada was lieing when he said Christ was an avatar but I have met devotees that think he was.

I demand that you take this statement back, Srila Prabhupada never spoke "lies" or was dishonest. He spoke clearly from the scriptural(sastra)point of view, from what he heard directly from his Guru Mahraj(guru), and what was confirmed by other Vaishnava acharyas(sadhu). This is the text to provide ample evidence that Jesus is factually acceptable as an avesa avatar. Srila Prabhupada would never say that Jesus Christ was an avatar just to kiss some Christian ass! He said it because he has faith in the words of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu! Just because so-called Vaishnavas can not accept Jesus or other prophets as avatar on the basis of scripture, that does not mean that it is not true. They are merely kali-cela. I have highlighted the relevant subject matter. Here you have it in plain black and white now I want you to apologize for this offensive statement. Whomsoever will dare and challenge Srila Prabhupada's statements in regards to Guru and Vishnu-tattva should shut his goddamn mouth and you should tell him to learn the scripture. First read the Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrta then you can talk. According to this statement, a distributor of spiritual knowledge is avesa-rupa or sakta-avesa-avatar, that is the fact. Srila Prabhupada was such a divinely empowered avatar. CC Madhya lila Chapter 20 verse 165

 

svayaḿ-rūpa, tad-ekātma-rūpa, āveśa — nāma

prathamei tina-rūpe rahena bhagavān

SYNONYMS

svayam-rūpa — the original form; tat-ekātma-rūpa — the same form, nondifferent from svayaḿ-rūpa; āveśa — especially empowered; nāma — named; prathamei — in the beginning; tina-rūpe — in three forms; rahena — remains; bhagavān — the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

TRANSLATION

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead exists in three principal forms — svayaḿ-rūpa, tad-ekātma-rūpa and āveśa-rūpa.

PURPORT

Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī has described the svayaḿ-rūpa in his Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta, Pūrva-khaṇḍa, verse 12: ananyāpekṣi yad rūpaḿ svayaḿ-rūpaḥ sa ucyate. "The form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead that does not depend on other forms is called the svayaḿ-rūpa, the original form." This form is also described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (1.3.28). "Kṛṣṇa is the original form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That Kṛṣṇa's form as a cowherd boy in Vṛndāvana is the original form of the Personality of Godhead (svayaḿ-rūpa) is confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā (5.1):

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

There is nothing superior to Govinda. He is the ultimate source and the cause of all causes. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.7), where the Lord says, mattaḥ parataraḿ nānyat: "There is no truth superior to Me.

The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms are also described in the Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta (Pūrva-khaṇḍa, verse 14):

yad rūpaḿ tad-abhedena svarūpeṇa virājate

ākṛtyādibhir anyādṛk sa tad-ekātma-rūpakaḥ

"The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms exist simultaneously with the svayaḿ-rūpa form and are nondifferent. At the same time, their bodily features and specific activities appear to be different." The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms are divided into two categories — svāḿśa and vilāsa.

Lord Kṛṣṇa's āveśa forms are also explained in the Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta (Pūrva 18):

jñāna-śakty-ādi-kalayā yatrāviṣṭo janārdanaḥ

ta āveśā nigadyante jīvā eva mahattamāḥ

"A living entity who is specifically empowered by the Lord with knowledge or strength is technically called āveśa-rūpa." As stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Antya 7.11), kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nahe tāra pravartana: Unless a devotee is specifically empowered by the Lord, he cannot preach the holy name of the Lord all over the world. This is an explanation of the word āveśa-rūpa.

[bhaktajan]

If you view video of Srila Prabhupada --during very formal 'interviews' by prersons seeking to form a Newspaper or TV article:

 

Prabhupada was stand-offish and unhesitatingly 'in-your face'.

 

IE: "Christianity" -- 'Let them first follow the commandment, "Thou shall not kill"'.

 

"Women's liberation" --'None the less the woman seeks/needs a man's acknowledgement'.

 

"Religious duty" --'Without God you are an animal'.

 

"Politics" --'Rascal lead by rascals'

 

"Hindu Swamis of Non-Vaishnava faith" --'That's OK as long as they stoop being lieing rascals'.

 

"Western Industry" --'hell bound foolish workers incurring ugra-karma enmass'.

 

"Fallen disciples"--'par for the course --I'll be happy to make one good Brahmana'.

 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Book/Video Idea:

 

Collect and create an anthology of moments of A.C. Bhaktivedanta's Smiling/Happy moments --if it can make a Maha-Bhagavata laugh in glee, there must be some exquist [irony?] logic there.

[suchandra]

 

I demand that you take this statement back, Srila Prabhupada never spoke "lies" or was dishonest. He spoke clearly from the scriptural(sastra)point of view, from what he heard directly from his Guru Mahraj(guru), and what was confirmed by other Vaishnava acharyas(sadhu). This is the text to provide ample evidence that Jesus is factually acceptable as an avesa avatar. Srila Prabhupada would never say that Jesus Christ was an avatar just to kiss some Christian ass! He said it because he has faith in the words of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu! Just because so-called Vaishnavas can not accept Jesus or other prophets as avatar on the basis of scripture, that does not mean that it is not true. They are merely kali-cela. I have highlighted the relevant subject matter. Here you have it in plain black and white now I want you to apologize for this offensive statement. Whomsoever will dare and challenge Srila Prabhupada's statements in regards to Guru and Vishnu-tattva should shut his goddamn mouth and you should tell him to learn the scripture. First read the Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrta then you can talk. According to this statement, a distributor of spiritual knowledge is avesa-rupa or sakta-avesa-avatar, that is the fact. Srila Prabhupada was such a divinely empowered avatar. CC Madhya lila Chapter 20 verse 165

 

svayaḿ-rūpa, tad-ekātma-rūpa, āveśa — nāma

prathamei tina-rūpe rahena bhagavān

SYNONYMS

svayam-rūpa — the original form; tat-ekātma-rūpa — the same form, nondifferent from svayaḿ-rūpa; āveśa — especially empowered; nāma — named; prathamei — in the beginning; tina-rūpe — in three forms; rahena — remains; bhagavān — the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

TRANSLATION

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead exists in three principal forms — svayaḿ-rūpa, tad-ekātma-rūpa and āveśa-rūpa.

PURPORT

Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī has described the svayaḿ-rūpa in his Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta, Pūrva-khaṇḍa, verse 12: ananyāpekṣi yad rūpaḿ svayaḿ-rūpaḥ sa ucyate. "The form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead that does not depend on other forms is called the svayaḿ-rūpa, the original form." This form is also described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam (1.3.28). "Kṛṣṇa is the original form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead." That Kṛṣṇa's form as a cowherd boy in Vṛndāvana is the original form of the Personality of Godhead (svayaḿ-rūpa) is confirmed in the Brahma-saḿhitā (5.1):

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ

anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam

There is nothing superior to Govinda. He is the ultimate source and the cause of all causes. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.7), where the Lord says, mattaḥ parataraḿ nānyat: "There is no truth superior to Me.

The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms are also described in the Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta (Pūrva-khaṇḍa, verse 14):

yad rūpaḿ tad-abhedena svarūpeṇa virājate

ākṛtyādibhir anyādṛk sa tad-ekātma-rūpakaḥ

"The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms exist simultaneously with the svayaḿ-rūpa form and are nondifferent. At the same time, their bodily features and specific activities appear to be different." The tad-ekātma-rūpa forms are divided into two categories — svāḿśa and vilāsa.

Lord Kṛṣṇa's āveśa forms are also explained in the Laghu-bhāgavatāmṛta (Pūrva 18):

jñāna-śakty-ādi-kalayā yatrāviṣṭo janārdanaḥ

ta āveśā nigadyante jīvā eva mahattamāḥ

"A living entity who is specifically empowered by the Lord with knowledge or strength is technically called āveśa-rūpa." As stated in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Antya 7.11), kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nahe tāra pravartana: Unless a devotee is specifically empowered by the Lord, he cannot preach the holy name of the Lord all over the world. This is an explanation of the word āveśa-rūpa.

 

Thanks Xochitl for this straight forward approach! Fully agree what you say. Only problem is that present Vaishnava institution are getting in big trouble as soon we say, Lord Jesus is a bona fide avatar.

 

Present Vaishnava institutions say, you can only receive diksa from a living guru, a guru that is physically present. ISKCON even is banning people who preach that Prabhupada can still give diksa. As soon we accept Lord Jesus, we also have to accept the way he is worshiped by ritvik priests.

 

The only solution for the Vaishnava institutions therefore is to never mention Jesus. In this way they get around answering additional questions like, why can Jesus still grant diksa, but not Prabhupada?

[sant]

ok

[bhaktajan]

Secrets of Hare Krishna/Bhagavad-gita/Hindu spirituality:

 

The 1st Lesson to learn is:

"We are not this body we are spirit soul"

 

ergo,

 

Jesus [can still grant so-called diksa] --because the lesson was meant according to time and place and level of the populace's intelligence and culture:

 

The lesson "Jesus rose from the dead" --this is easily understood by the commoner and also, the political/social/spiritual ramifications establish the principles of Individual Liberty as divinely bestowed as a fact of life.

 

ergo,

 

The 1st Lesson is learnt:

"We are not this body we are spirit soul"

 

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Xochitl]

 

Secrets of Hare Krishna/Bhagavad-gita/Hindu spirituality:

 

The 1st Lesson to learn is:

"We are not this body we are spirit soul"

 

ergo,

 

Jesus [can still grant so-called diksa] --because the lesson was meant according to time and place and level of the populace's intelligence and culture:

 

The lesson "Jesus rose from the dead" --this is easily understood by the commoner and also, the political/social/spiritual ramifications establish the principles of Individual Liberty as divinely bestowed as a fact of life.

 

ergo,

 

The 1st Lesson is learnt:

"We are not this body we are spirit soul"

 

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Yes, I agree with you prabhu, but I also want to bring up the point that Suchandra prabhu was mentioning earlier. That it is possible to accept "diksha" from a guru who is not on the planet, I disagree, because clearly the scripture delineates the relationship of guru/sisya and one that is a mutual agreement, between two living embodied souls. The Guru accepts the disciple after the disciple accepts the authority of the guru. It is a two way road, that is what regulates the process of accepting a guru/disciple. There can only be reciprocation through the formality of diksha between the two when they are both alive and breathing. What to speak of the actual performance of the yajna, which is supposed to be performed in the presence of the guru? The only exception which has been made, to my knowledge was the sannnyas initiation of Sri Srimad Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaj... isn't it? This only emphasizes the point that you have to be extremely advanced to even attempt such rituals. So my advice is, if you are a pure devotee on the level of Srila Prabhupada, then yes you can do your own initiation ceremony with a photo of your guru. However, let it be clear that I totally disagree with the rtvik philosophy altogether, because of the fact that there has to be mutual reciprocation. Again, that means, disciple will accept the guru, and guru has to accept the disciple through the formality of harinam diksha. Otherwise, anyone can claim anyone as his guru, just like any girl can say "Justin Timberlake is my boyfriend."

[suchandra]

 

Yes, I agree with you prabhu, but I also want to bring up the point that Suchandra prabhu was mentioning earlier. That it is possible to accept "diksha" from a guru who is not on the planet, I disagree, because clearly the scripture delineates the relationship of guru/sisya and one that is a mutual agreement, between two living embodied souls. The Guru accepts the disciple after the disciple accepts the authority of the guru. It is a two way road, that is what regulates the process of accepting a guru/disciple. There can only be reciprocation through the formality of diksha between the two when they are both alive and breathing. What to speak of the actual performance of the yajna, which is supposed to be performed in the presence of the guru? The only exception which has been made, to my knowledge was the sannnyas initiation of Sri Srimad Srila Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaj... isn't it? This only emphasizes the point that you have to be extremely advanced to even attempt such rituals. So my advice is, if you are a pure devotee on the level of Srila Prabhupada, then yes you can do your own initiation ceremony with a photo of your guru. However, let it be clear that I totally disagree with the rtvik philosophy altogether, because of the fact that there has to be mutual reciprocation. Again, that means, disciple will accept the guru, and guru has to accept the disciple through the formality of harinam diksha. Otherwise, anyone can claim anyone as his guru, just like any girl can say "Justin Timberlake is my boyfriend."

Lord Jesus gave clear parameters what it means to be a genuine follower. These parameters were passed on by priests. Same with Prabhupada, he ordered priests to do the same, find out if people properly follow, only then they received initiation.

 

Coming back to Jesus, if you consider Jesus as avatar but simultanously conclude, Jesus is dead and gone, he cannot give diksa anymore, only avatars who are alive can give diksa, you are in conflict with the great acaryas like Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka, Vallabha, etc etc. who never taught that the way Jesus is worshiped is false.

 

None of the acaryas ever mentioned that Lord Jesus is dead and the way he's worshiped by priests is a mistake. And! None of the priests say, they are giving diksa, rather they say, it is Lord Jesus who gives diksa.

 

To say I accept Lord Jesus but reject the way he ordered to be worshiped through ritviks, immediately makes you reject Jesus also, aparadha. Drags you right on the level of an aparadhi.

[bhaktajan]

Xochitl,

 

Yes, I agree with you prabhu too. Your description is quite good, concise, complete and addresses the topic in all it's variations.

 

Sucandra's "sentiment" is an old left-over reaction to Iskcon-proper.

 

In the formative years SP only got to visit YOUR LOCAL Temple ocassionaly, while he traveled to establish Iskcon Temples in far flung locales.

 

The feeling of seperation --or more to the point, the IDEAL senario of sitting at one's guru's feet was nearly imposible to do with SP's schedule.

 

So after his departure--our young Novice-like first-comers made a show of advancement for newer arrivals, only to renig on their lofty duties due to worldly mindedness.

 

Those who left to stay at the feet of other Vaishnava Babajis cannot be faulted --their story(s) also, are too intense a path for mere mortals such as our selves [unless you are impelled to act as such on one's own volition], too intense a path for those not made of the 'RIGHT-STUFF'.

 

ISKCON teaches how to recognise the Bogus versus the Genuine as-it-is.

And ISKCON has always been too exclusive for common proliferation of their own message --yet the term "WEED-OUT" was always bandied about from the start along with the concept of a "devotional creeper [ivy-like Vine]" that must be cultivated on one's own accord [every man for himself] LEST, we would be lost like a "Riven cloud".

 

As in any expertise --it must be recieved by a master/Pro/Instructor that went before us.

 

The ideal is that Initiation (diksha) is a formality --where as the compulsatory injuction is to take instruction from a bonefide instructor (shiksha).

[andy108]

 

Yes, I agree with you prabhu, but I also want to bring up the point that Suchandra prabhu was mentioning earlier. That it is possible to accept "diksha" from a guru who is not on the planet, I disagree, because clearly the scripture delineates the relationship of guru/sisya and one that is a mutual agreement, between two living embodied souls. The Guru accepts the disciple after the disciple accepts the authority of the guru. It is a two way road, that is what regulates the process of accepting a guru/disciple. There can only be reciprocation through the formality of diksha between the two when they are both alive and breathing. What to speak of the actual performance of the yajna, which is supposed to be performed in the presence of the guru?

All what you say here is based upon the delusion that we are our bodies.

 

Bhaktivedanta Swami never met many of his disciples. Never ever. They never looked one another in the eye, body to body. And he most certainly was never present in his physical body at their Initiation Yajnas.

 

He accepted these disciples by authorizing those he trusted to accept them on his behalf. For many years he did this while he circled the globe. He gave these disciples a taperecording of him chanting the mantra and had his disciples play it in the aspirants right ear.

 

The part in sastra which demands mutual examination was successfully fulfilled because B.Swami decided that HIS AUTHORIZED CRITERIA for examining a potential disciple was that those he trusted examine the aspirant in his absence. If his disciples observed the new aspirant and decided they met the criteria, that was good enough for B.Swami and he accepted thousands of disciples that way, and never ever met them once.

 

Those disciples doing this work as deputies also informed the aspirant that this was the process, so the aspirant could examine that part of their prospective Guru, and decide if they could live with that or not.

 

This is historical fact.

 

Another historical fact is that when asked by his senior disciples how initiations would be conducted in his society when he would "no longer be with them", he formalized this system of officiating through deputies in writing and asked that no changes be made.

 

End of story.

[Xochitl]

Andy108,

excuse me? delusion? material body? Are we suddently pure devotees and not subject to the gunas of material nature? Are you transcendental to the material body? Apparently so, I wonder then, if we're all so damn great, why we are here in this world in the first place? Everyone has to start somewhere.. it starts with spiritual initiation. This is not an assumption either way, it is the formality of initiation which helps one to begin his spiritual life, reviving his relationship with the Lord. There can not be chaos in this matter, there has to be a system, like Suchandra prabhu and others just mentioned. It is a formality, but that doesn't mean that it is less than 100% a spiritual investment. Okay...I'm gonna go off on a tangent here... About Jesus Christ, there is an apparent contradiction, but like I said, it is up to the guru to accept the disciple. That is also limited by the level of advancement of the disciple; accordingly, we get spiritual reciprocation from guru. The Christians today don't follow the rules and regulations, and the one that do follow are regarded as heretics and fanatics. Everyone makes jokes at the Mormons for being "too strict", but seriously who can point the finger? "let he without sin cast the first stone" Nobody is qualified to criticize the other, because none of the Christians achieved any significant spiritual advancement. Tell me how many "Christians" do you know that follow strictly and really love God? Any takers? okay....

And where do you get off saying that His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada never met any of his disciples, never, ever? What the hell are you talking about? I met plenty of disciples that met Srila Prabhupada one on one, face to face, and even taught them how to tie their caupins and wear their saris. Explain me that? Were they deluded? Maybe they were hallucinating? To think that the guru's material body is contaminated by the material nature or to reduce the disciple's surrender to the guru to mere "delusion" is aparadha, that is the delusion. The formality is there, yes it is really only a formality but it is a spiritual formality, it is not delusion! That relationship is based on spiritual capability; if someone is willing, able and sincere, then yes, he would get his foot into the door, so to speak. The point is, there is still regulation, even if Srila Prabhupada didn't "personally", with his material body, oversee the disciple, still he had authorized delegates, if you will, to do the supervising. That was the point. He authorized them for a certain purpose during a certain time, to assume that it meant forever and ever, then no, I have to say I don't agree. Because of the fact that Srila Prabhupada said he wanted all his disciples, "boys and girls" to become gurus in the future and by that statement, one can understand that Prabhupada intended his disciples to work their way up to be spiritual masters and one day accept disciples themselves. Eventually. Why would he say that if he didn't mean it? Was he just saying it to put his disciples in a sticky situation? Why would he give instructions if he didn't intend them to be taken seriously? To expose his disciples to future guru-aparadha? The problem we have in ISKCON today is not Prabhupada's lack of instructions, but abundance thereof. He set extremely high standards, he wanted each and everyone to become a first-class Vaishnava and brahmin, thereby establishing varnasram dharma and eradicating hypocrisy, dupliciousness and sinful activity to almost nil. He gave instructions that, I think, would be totally impossible for the modern sadhana-slacker, I mean to say, ISKCON devotee; I mean, let's be honest, can anyone say in full faith(hand on the Gita), "Yes, I am aspiring to become a bonafide spiritual master, I am making my heartfelt, hardest and best endevour, so that I can propagate Srila Prabhupada's family one day." No! So yeah, mind your own damn anarthas... I'm quoting bhaktajan prabhu for a finishing note because I like what he said, and because I just feel like it.

The ideal is that Initiation (diksha) is a formality --where as the compulsatory injuction is to take instruction from a bonefide instructor (shiksha).

[Kulapavana]

Why do you ritviks transform every other thread into a diksa debate????

 

 

Bhaktivedanta Swami never met many of his disciples. Never ever. They never looked one another in the eye, body to body. And he most certainly was never present in his physical body at their Initiation Yajnas.

 

He accepted these disciples by authorizing those he trusted to accept them on his behalf. For many years he did this while he circled the globe. He gave these disciples a taperecording of him chanting the mantra and had his disciples play it in the aspirants right ear.

 

And this was good how? His disciples were so poorly trained that they made up all sorts of bogus philosophies and bogus practices even when Prabhupada was still with them. And when Prabhupada left, they promptly transformed his mission into a total sham. Today you ritviks rightly criticize current "jet-lag gurus" because they fly here and there and never have time to properly train their disciples. Prabhupada did not train up very well even his leading disciples, what to speak of the rank and file members.

 

Prabhupada had no choice but to try to train his disciples from afar - he was trying to start Mahaprabhu's movement in the West, translate books, etc. But that does not mean that this strategy did not have an inherent risk. It was a compromise, a risk Prabhupada took for the sake of Lord Caitanya's mission - not a practice to be followed from now on.

[Xochitl]

there is another quick verse that serves to validate my point. Ironically, I was just reading when I came across this verse and thought, "How appropriate."

 

arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhīr guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhir

viṣṇor vā vaiṣṇsnavānāḿ kali-mala-mathane pāda-tīrthe 'mbu-buddhiḥ

śrī-viṣṇor nāmni mantre sakala-kaluṣa-he śabda-sāmānya-buddhir

viṣṇau sarveśvareśe tad-itara-sama-dhīr yasya vā nārakī saḥ

 

No one should consider the Deity in the temple to be made of stone or wood, nor should one consider the spiritual master an ordinary human being. No one should consider a Vaiṣṇava to belong to a particular caste or creed, and no one should consider caraṇāmṛta or Ganges water to be like ordinary water. Nor should anyone consider the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra to be a material vibration. All these expansions of Kṛṣṇa in the material world are simply demonstrations of the Lord's mercy and willingness to give facility to His devotees who are engaged in His devotional service within the material world.

 

 

BOOYAH!

[suchandra]

 

 

 

 

And this was good how?

Pardon, sir, may be you forgot the name of the age we're living in - it's kali-yuga. And Krshna Himself says, that in this age things go terribly wrong, ultimately Krsna will appear as kalki-avatar. So, we shouldnt be astonished about so many rascals doing so many crazy things. Even Krsna doesn't see any other solution than to appear as kalki-avatar.

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Pardon, sir, may be you forgot the name of the age we're living in - it's kali-yuga. And Krshna Himself says, that in this age things go terribly wrong, ultimately Krsna will appear as kalki-avatar. So, we shouldnt be astonished about so many rascals doing so many crazy things.

 

"Similarly, if a spiritual master cannot direct his disciples to become free of sinful activities, he becomes responsible for their sinful acts." (SB 4.20.14, purport)

 

"The spiritual master has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his disciples." (PQPA 6)

 

770415rc.bom Conversations

Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurangera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya. Don't manufacture ideas. Amara ajnaya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ajna?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad- gita. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said. Bas. You become guru..."

 

 

 

 

 

<!-- / message -->