relevence of truthfulness in sadhana

[bhaktajan]

 

Andy108,

Are you transcendental to the material body?

 

[Yes, by the grace of his Divine grace who bestowed causeless mercy]

 

I wonder then, if we're all so damn great, why we are here in this world in the first place?

 

[to distribute the mercy --of the treasure house of Krsna-prema]

 

There can not be chaos in this matter, there has to be a system --that doesn't mean that it is less than 100% a spiritual investment.

 

[That is why the Hare Krishna Movement is, as George Constanza, of the TV Show, 'Seinfeld' said of the Sunshine Clearners Co of New York City (a reference to Joeseph Schimtz~Jagatpati Dasa's 'International Society for Moving Co' of the 1980's )]: "What kind of stuck-up (self-inportant) cult is this?"

 

The Christians today don't follow the rules and regulations, and the one that do follow are regarded as heretics and fanatics.

 

Tell me how many "Christians" do you know that follow strictly and really love God?

 

[Good point. Only devote Christen clergy are approximating thorough allegence to their own scriptural injuctions. And some social-workers. Yet, most are not severing the last vestages of the BAD-KARMA-COMMON-DENOMINATOR: FLEASH EATING {Thou shall not Kill}].

 

That [Guru-disciple] relationship is based on spiritual capability; if someone is willing, able and sincere, then yes, he would get his foot into the door ...

 

... still he [srila Prabhupada] had authorized delegates, if you will, to do the supervising. That was the point. He authorized them for a certain purpose during a certain time ...

 

[The time factor is a sly fellow who pals around with Kardarpa (cupid-ji)]

 

Because of the fact that Srila Prabhupada said he wanted all his disciples, "boys and girls" to become gurus in the future and by that statement, one can understand that Prabhupada intended his disciples to work their way up to be spiritual masters and one day accept disciples themselves.

 

The problem we have in ISKCON today is not Prabhupada's lack of instructions, but abundance thereof.

 

[Great point --the level of study to 'dissect' Srila Prabhupada's books require the space of a large Metropolitan Museum]

 

He [srila Prabhupada] set extremely high standards, he wanted each and everyone to become a first-class Vaishnava and brahmin, thereby establishing varnasram dharma and eradicating hypocrisy, dupliciousness and sinful activity to almost nil.

 

Let's be honest, can anyone say in full faith(hand on the Gita):

 

"Yes, I am aspiring to become a bonafide spiritual master,

I am making my heartfelt, hardest and best endevour,

so that I can propagate Srila Prabhupada's family one day."

 

[. . . tbd . . . ]

 

 

 

Let's be honest, can anyone say in full faith(hand on the Gita):

 

"Yes, I am aspiring to become a bonafide spiritual master,

I am making my heartfelt, hardest and best endevour,

so that I can propagate Srila Prabhupada's family one day."

 

[. . . Actually WE ALL ARE --weather we like it or not . . . most times, we find that we are witness to our Maha-Bhagavata's teachings as played out by History and the litany of World-stage Characters, all frutively heading into the jaws of Time & Destiny quicker than we can respond.

 

We protect the sovreignty of our local Temples, so as NOT to draw unwanted attention to them, thus keeping various sorts of crazys at bay.

 

Our Hands are tied, while we maintain our own stance in society --yet time passes.

 

We slowly garner "proofs" to later draw-upon to debate newbee mayavadis --all in anticipation of being stewards of Gurukulas or Nanny's to aristocratic families.]

 

The un-expected cute-ness is that there will be a new wave of interest and thus WE will be thrust upon with unlimited requests to supply: Gurukul trained students/Retirement room & board/Leadership training to Retired Generals & diplomats/Musical Inspiration via our best of the best Bhajan singers/Cooking Lessons/Architectural City Planning/Farming & Natural Resources Management/Death Samskaras, and maybe, just maybe astrology insights.

[suchandra]

 

"Similarly, if a spiritual master cannot direct his disciples to become free of sinful activities, he becomes responsible for their sinful acts." (SB 4.20.14, purport)

 

"The spiritual master has to take the responsibility for all the sinful activities of his disciples." (PQPA 6)

 

770415rc.bom Conversations

Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurangera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya. Don't manufacture ideas. Amara ajnaya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ajna?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad- gita. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said. Bas. You become guru..."

 

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May be people here are still impressed whenever the term "guru" is pronounced.

Actually the very term "guru" doesn't mean anything - in vedic culture everyone is a guru, tourist guide, elementary teacher, uncle, father, nephew, these are all gurus. However, when Lord Caitanya is saying everybody become guru, does He say, everyone, neophytes, kanisthas, misra-bhaktas, they all should become diksa-gurus, sit on the vyasasan and demand to be worshiped like uttama adikaris? This is an absurd idea, even non-Vaishnavas shake their heads.

Therefore, whenever somebody mentioned "guru", Prabhupada would immediately reply, "what kind of guru?"

 

1. Causelessmercy - Tapes - Lecture: What is a Guru? - London, August 22, 1973

What kind of guru you have got? You are talking nonsense. ... they are trying to avoid this. So imagine what kind of guru and what kind of disciple.So śāstra says,

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2. Causelessmercy - Tapes - Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.28 - Bombay, November 28, 1974

What kind of guru? Just like Kapiladeva, Kṛṣṇa, or His representative. Not a bogus guru. Then you will be cheated. Andhā yathāndair upanīyamānāḥ. The so-called rascal

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3. Causelessmercy - Tapes - Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.7 - Vrndavana, October 18, 1972

And what kind of guru? An… That is also explained in the śāstras: śābde pare ca niṣṇātaṁ brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. Guru must be śābde pare ca niṣṇātam.

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4. Causelessmercy - Tapes - Arthur Schopenhauer

And what kind of guru? Who has seen the truth practically. That he did not do. He is simply speculating on his own experience, and although everything is there in the Bhagavad-

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5. Causelessmercy - Tapes - Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.15.39 - Los Angeles, December 17...

Bhagavān, what kind of brāhmaṇa he is, and what kind of guru he is? So therefore one must know the ultimate truth, Bhagavān. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti. Not silent,

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6. Causelessmercy - Tapes - Room Conversation - April 22, 1977, Bombay

What kind of guru? No publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff… My Guru Mahārāja used to say, “Joint mess,” a place for eating and sleeping. Amar amar ara

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7. Causelessmercy - Tapes - Room Conversation - London, August 1, 1972

Oh, what kind of guru you are, you are walking on the street? You are American guru?”Devotee: I was thinking if each devotee in the United States went out…Prabhupāda: You

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8. Causelessmercy - Tapes - Room Conversation - February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur

And what kind of guru? Śabde pare ca niṣṇataṁ brahmaṇy upāśamāśrayam. So this is a big science. One has to study. One has to understand. The things are there. There

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[bhaktajan]

This what I learnt when I was Young:

 

Vedas = Knowledge.

 

Knowledge = ability to descriminate between subtle differences, ie: the ability to descriminate between butter vs cream vs cheese vs milk vs ice-cream vs yogurt.

 

IOW to descern the relative differences of all things and 'know the difference'.

[Kulapavana]

 

Therefore, whenever somebody mentioned "guru", Prabhupada would immediately reply, "what kind of guru?"

 

 

What kind of a guru is Prabhupada talking about?

See here:

Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be.

 

In other words he wants his disciples (sons) to be a guru like him (father).

 

He is certainly not making himself a "diksa guru for the next 10,000 years" - such a concept is completely bogus to the core - another invention of his untrained disciples.

[suchandra]

 

What kind of a guru is Prabhupada talking about?

See here:

Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be.

 

In other words he wants his disciples (sons) to be a guru like him (father).

 

He is certainly not making himself a "diksa guru for the next 10,000 years" - such a concept is completely bogus to the core - another invention of his untrained disciples.

Well yes, for you it is in the same way bogus like there are people who consider Lord Jesus as bogus, religion as bogus, animals have a soul as bogus, etc etc. Whenever people run out of logic and reason things are labeled as bogus.

 

Like father, like son, no, Prabhupada never ordered anyone to become his successor.

And why should he? Just before 35 sannyasis fell down, 8 GBCs left the movement.

What Prabhupada hated most is when disciples fell down.

 

So why should he have created yet another position from which people would fall down like they fell from sannyasa? And! Prabhupada considered the position of diksa-guru the most confidential. Why would he have appointed people for this office who would later on fall down?

 

But I can see through your logic, you are all the time trying to point out how Prabhupada made so many mistakes, Moon explanation, women are inferior, etc and therefore he also appointed neophytes to become acaryas. Very misleading policy.

[Kulapavana]

 

Whenever people run out of logic and reason things are labeled as bogus.

 

The concept of Prabhupada making himself a "diksa guru for the next 10,000 years" is bogus because it is unauthorized by the tradition. No acharya EVER has done anything like that. No record of this type of a system in the shastra or recorded history of all 4 Vaishnava sampradayas. That is the logic and reason for calling it bogus.

 

Acharyas do not make things up - they follow the path of the mahajans and previous acharyas. If they do make things up - they are not acharyas.

[Kulapavana]

 

So why should he have created yet another position from which people would fall down like they fell from sannyasa? And! Prabhupada considered the position of diksa-guru the most confidential. Why would he have appointed people for this office who would later on fall down?

 

 

For the same reason he appointed unqualified disciples to be sannyasis, GBCs and leaders of his movement - because he thought his movement needed these positions to be filled, and these people were all he had.

[suchandra]

 

For the same reason he appointed unqualified disciples to be sannyasis, GBCs and leaders of his movement - because he thought his movement needed these positions to be filled, and these people were all he had.

You definitely must know that Prabhupada said he wants to stop giving sannyasa because so many fell down. But still you propagate that he did the opposite.

This is very misleading and not honest. Vaishnava should be honest. Why don't you admit that Prabhupada said, no more giving of sannyasa, too many fall downs?

 

"This should be strictly outlawed, no more sannyasis. And those sannyasis who have fallen, you get them married, live like a gentleman. No more this showbottle, cheating. It is very ludicrous. Even there is a promise that “We shall not fall down again,” that is also not believable. What is the use? Better go and speak philosophy in your grhastha dress, not this dress, but you have nice coat, pants, gentleman. Who says no? I never said. Rather I shall be glad to see that up-to-date gentlemen with tilaka and sikha are speaking. That is very prestigious everywhere…”

 

“And this kind of hypocrisy–they have taken sannyasa and mixing with woman. This is not to be allowed. If you want woman you get yourself married, live respectfully. We have no objection. But this hypocrisy should be stopped. There have been so many fallen down. First of all there will be no sannyasi anymore. I have got very bad experience.”

(Room Conversation, 7th January, 1977)

[Smiley]

 

The concept of Prabhupada making himself a "diksa guru for the next 10,000 years" is bogus because it is unauthorized by the tradition. No acharya EVER has done anything like that. No record of this type of a system in the shastra or recorded history of all 4 Vaishnava sampradayas. That is the logic and reason for calling it bogus.

 

Acharyas do not make things up - they follow the path of the mahajans and previous acharyas. If they do make things up - they are not acharyas.

 

The business about Mohammed and Jesus being great devotees of Krishna seem to have been "made up". Muslims and Christians definitely would never agree to that. If I am wrong and Srila Prabhupada was following "the path of mahajans and previous acharyas" in these statements, please inform/correct me. Or perhaps these would be exceptions to your rule?

[Kulapavana]

 

You definitely must know that Prabhupada said he wants to stop giving sannyasa because so many fell down. But still you propagate that he did the opposite.

This is very misleading and not honest. Vaishnava should be honest. Why don't you admit that Prabhupada said, no more giving of sannyasa, too many fall downs?

 

 

That is not what I have said. Initially Prabhupada obviously thought that giving these unqualified disciples sannyasa was good for his movement. Later he saw that it was not, so he changed his mind. Still, initially he appointed unqualified people for positions he considered necessary. Why would he not do it with initiating gurus? He wanted Sridhara Maharaja to come with him to the West to preach, but SM refused. So who was to continue accepting new people as disciples? His own not-yet-ready disciples.

[Kulapavana]

 

The business about Mohammed and Jesus being great devotees of Krishna seem to have been "made up". Muslims and Christians definitely would never agree to that. If I am wrong and Srila Prabhupada was following "the path of mahajans and previous acharyas" in these statements, please inform/correct me. Or perhaps these would be exceptions to your rule?

 

I'm not sure if Prabhupada considered Mohammed and Jesus being great devotees of Krishna. He considered them great devotees of God in general, altough I doubt he studied either one of them in detail. Since these two personalities inspired so many millions of people to surrender to God over many centuries, Prabhupada considered them to be great devotees. Would mahajans like Prahlada, Janaka or Bhishma disagree? I doubt that. Bhaktivinoda Thakura would certainly agree with Srila Prabhupada, for his religious vision was also very broad.

[Guest Melvin1]

 

I'm not sure if Prabhupada considered Mohammed and Jesus being great devotees of Krishna. He considered them great devotees of God in general, altough I doubt he studied either one of them in detail. Since these two personalities inspired so many millions of people to surrender to God over many centuries, Prabhupada considered them to be great devotees. Would mahajans like Prahlada, Janaka or Bhishma disagree? I doubt that. Bhaktivinoda Thakura would certainly agree with Srila Prabhupada, for his religious vision was also very broad.

 

Prophet Muhammed and Christ Jesus may have inspired millions of people to surrender to God but never did they describe to us a God who is fully decorated who stands with His body curved in three ways, whose eyebrows are always moving, who appears as a cowherd boy, a newly grown youth who plays the flute.

[suchandra]

 

Prophet Muhammed and Christ Jesus may have inspired millions of people to surrender to God but never did they describe to us a God who is fully decorated who stands with His body curved in three ways, whose eyebrows are always moving, who appears as a cowherd boy, a newly grown youth who plays the flute.

 

Thanks Melvin, good point, yes Muhammed and Christ only revealed to us that God is a person - but at least more than Lord Buddha and Sankaracarya revealed.

 

On the other hand, are we able to actually understand even the ABCs of vedic knowledge? When it comes to understand even simple things like is a mahabhagavat fully present in his teachings, is Prabhupada fully present in his books, can his books give spiritual guidance and absorb sins = grant diksa, present intellectually say, no, Prabhupada is dead and gone.

 

So it should be clear why Jesus and Muhammed couldn't reveal more knowledge, same as today, people's brain cannot grasp it.

[Kulapavana]

 

Thanks Melvin, good point, yes Muhammed and Christ only revealed to us that God is a person - but at least more than Lord Buddha and Sankaracarya revealed.

 

Adi Shankaracharya revealed this:

 

*Bhaja Govindam of Adi Shankara*

 

Verse 1:

BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM

GOVINDAM BHAJA MUDHAMATE

SAMPRAAPTE SANNIHITE KALE

NA HI NA HI RAKSHATI DUKRINKARANE

 

Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Oh ignoramus, at the time of death the rules of grammer, which you are trying to cram and master, will not be able to rescue you at all.

 

(Grammer rules mean all secular knowledge and earthly acquistitions. Mudhamati means a materialist, wholely worldly-minded, who does not believe in God or the spiritual entity that is in man)

 

Verse 2:

MOODHA JAHEEHI DHANAAGAMATRISHNAAM

KURU SADBUDHIM MANASI VITRISHNAAM

YALLABHASE NIJAKARMOPAATHAM

VITHAM TENA VINODAYA CHITHAM

 

(refrain from Verse 1 to be sung after every verse...BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM..........)

 

Oh, Fool! give up your insatiable desire for earthly possessions; be sensible and develop serenity and contentment. Be satisfied and happy with whatever you may earn by the sweat of your brow and whatever has destiny marked for your lot.

 

Verse 3:

NAAREE STHANABHARA NABHEEDESAM

DHRISHTWA MAA GAA MOHAVESAM

YETAN MAAMSAVASAADI VIKAARAM

MANASI VICHINTHAYA VAARAM VAARAM

 

Enticed by the physical glamour of a woman, do not lose your senses; the body is nothing but a conglomeration of flesh, do not forget this any time.

 

Verse 4:

NALINEEDALAGATHA JALAMATITHARALAM

TADWAJJEEVITAMATHISHAYA CHAPALAM

VIDDHI VYADHYABHIMAANAGRASTAM

LOKAM SHOKAHATAM CHA SAMASTHAM

 

The water droplet on the lotus leaf is tremulous and unsteady. So too is life which is as uncertain. Know the body to be in the claws of disease, which may swallow it at any moment. Life is ultimately nothing but worry, misery and grief.

 

Verse 5:

YAAVADVITTOPAARJANA SAKTHAH

TAAVANNIJAPARIVAARO RAKTHAH

PASCHAAJJEEVATI JARJARADEHE

VAARTHAM KOPI NA PRICHCHATHI GEHE

 

As long as you are fit to make an earning, so long will your kith and kin be solicitous about you, but no sooner your limbs become infirm and your earnings cease, none will care for you, not even your own home-folk.

 

Verse 6:

YAAVATPAVANO NIVASATI DEHE

TAAVATPRICHCHATI KUSHALAM GEHE

GATAVATI VAAYO DEHAAPAAYE

BHAARYA BIBHYATI TASMINKAAYE

 

As long as there is life in your body, your people may have concern for you, but once the life-breath ebbs out of your body, even your own wife will run away from you.

 

Verse 7:

BAALASTAAVAT KREEDAA SAKTHAH

THARUNASTAAVAT THARUNEESAKTHAH

VRIDDHASTAAVAT CHINTHAASAKTHAH

PARASE BRAHMANI KOPI NA SAKTHA

 

Childhood skips off on sport and play. Youth flies off in pursuits of love-making. As one grows older he is drowned in worry about the security and future of his wife and children. One's whole life gets spent in some kind of worry or other. And at no stage does man find time to lift his thoughts to God.

 

Verse 8:

KAA TE KAANTAA KASTE PUTHRAH

SAMSAROYAMATEEVA VICHITRAH

KASYA TWAM KAH KUTHA AAYAATAH

TATWAM CHINTHAYA TADIHA BHARATAH

 

Who indeed is your beloved and who indeed is your son? Strange indeed are these family bonds; who belongs to you and to whom you belong? Whence did you come, Oh brother! Reflect on the truth of it all.

 

Verse 9:

SATSANGATWE NISSANGATWAM

NISSANGATWE NIRMOHATWAM

NIRMOHATWE NISCHALATATWAM

NISCHALATATWE JEEVANMUKTHIH

 

The company of the good weans one away from false attachments; when attachment is lost, delusion ends; when delusion ends, the mind becomes unwavering and steady. An unwavering and steady mind is merited for Jeevan Mukti (liberation even in this life).

 

Verse 10:

VAYASI GATE KAH KAMAVIKARAH

SHUSHKE NEERE, KAH KAASAARAH

KSHEENE VITHE KAH PARIVARO

GYNATE TATWE KAH SAMASARAH

 

When youth is gone, where is lust and its play? Where is the lake when its waters have dried up? Where are the kinsfolk when riches are gone ? When Truth is realised, where is the snare of Samsara?

 

Verse 11:

MAA KURU DHANAJANAYOUVANAGARVAM

HARATI NIMESHAATKAALAH SARWAM

MAAYAAMAYAMIDAMAKHILAM HITHWA

BRAHMAPADAM TWAM PRAVISHA VIDITWA

 

The pleasures and riches of worldly life are deceptive appearances. Understanding that they are all but a passing-show, be detached and dispassionate, cultivate renunciation and seek Brahman.

 

Verse 12:

DINAYAAMINYOU SAAYAM PRAATAH

SHISHIRAVASANTOW PUNARAAYAATAH

KAALAH KREEDATI GACHCHATYAAYUH

TADAPI NA MUNCHATHYAASAAVAAYUH

 

Day and night, dawn and dusk, winter and spring, all these are flitting across the stage of the world. While time thus is frolicking and befooling us, our life span is also running out; yet we do not, even a little, give up the clinging to our desires, nor do we let the desires loosen their grip on us.

 

Verse 13:

KAA TE KAANTAA DHANAGATACHINTAA

VAATULA KIM TAVA NAASTI NIYANTAA

TRIJAGATI SAJJANASANGATIREKAA

BHAVATI BHAVAARNAVATARANE NOUKAA

 

Crazy man ! Why do you worry so much about your wife and property? Why don't you seek out the Truth? Know that in these three worlds it is only the association with the good and holy that can help you in crossing safely the ocean of life.

 

Verse 14:

JATILO MUNDI LUNCHITAKESHAH

KAASHAAYAAMBARA BAHUKRITAVESHAH

PASYANNAPI CHA NA PASYATI MOODHO

HIUDARANIMITAM BAHUKRITAVESHAH

 

The ascetic with matted locks, the man with the shaven head or one with hair pulled out, or the man parading in the ochre robes -- they all have eyes but yet do not see. All these are but deceptions for cheating the world, for filling their bellies. (Renunciation does not lie in external appearance, but in inward thought, attitude and feeling).

 

Verse 15:

ANGAM GALITAM PALITAM MUNDAM

DASANAVIHEENAM JAATAM TUNDAM

VRIDHDHO YAATI GRIHEETWA DANDAM

TADAPI NA MUNCHATYAASHAAPINDAM

 

The body has become decrepit, the hair on the head has turned completely gray; the mouth has become totally toothless; the back is bent down and the old man cannot take even a step witout the aid of his stick; yet he does not loosen even a bit, his hold on the bundle of desires.

 

Verse 16:

AGRE VAHNIH PRISHTE BHAANUH

RAATHROW CHUBUKASAMARPITAJAANUH

KARATALABHIKASHAS TARUTALAVAASAH

TADAPI NA MUNCHATYAASHAAPAASAH

 

Homeless he is; his back is bent down with age. His body has lost its heat and he has to warm himself before a fire or in the sun. Tree is his only shelter; he lives by begging and by the crumbs thrown into his palms by others; in the night he sleeps by holding his chin on his knee (because the back is bent and he cannot stretch himself and lie down). Yet, he does not let and allow the grip of desires on him loosen even a bit.

 

Verse 17:

KURUTE GANGAASAAGARAGAMANAM

VRATAPARIPAALANAMATHAVAA DAANAM

JNANAVIHEENAH SARVAMATENA

MUKTIM NA BHAJATI JANMASATENA

 

One may have bathed in the holy Ganges or even in the Ganga Sagar; he may have performed many charities and observed many vows; yet unless one has glimpsed the Truth (God), he will not gain release even after a hundred lives.

 

Verse 18:

SURAMANDIRA TARUMOOLA NIVAASAH

SAIYAA BHOOTALAMAJINAM VAASAH

SARVAPARIGRAHA BHOGATYAAGAH

KASYA SUKHAM NA KAROTI VIRAAGAH

 

Who can disturb the peace and happiness of a man if he has the true spirit of renunciation and has controlled his desires, even if he be the poorest, sleeping only in the temple halls and choultries or under trees or on the bare ground and just with a deer skin to cover.

 

Verse 19:

YOGARATO VAA BHOGARATO VAA

SANGARATO VAA SANGAVIHEENAH

YASYA BRAHMANI RAMATE CHITHAM

NANDATI NANDATI NANDATYEVA

 

Whether one is immersed in yoga or is revelling in bhoga (i.e, outward enjoyment), whether he is enjoying himself in social company or has retired into solitude, true happiness certainly cannot be his; but who alone is revelling inwardly in Brahman, (wherever he be), he alone will be truly happy and will verily enjoy.

 

Verse 20:

BHAGAVADGEETA KINCHIDADHEETAA

GANGAAJALALAVAKANIKAA PEETAA

SAKRIDAPI YENA MURARISAMARCHAA

KRIYATE TASYA YAMENA NA CHARCHA

 

Even a little study and understanding of the Bhagawad Gita, or sipping of even a tiny drop of the waters of the holy Ganges or even a little worship of Murari -- these will surely save one from confrontation with death!

 

Verse 21:

PUNARAPI JANANAM PUNARAPI MARANAM

PUNARAPI JANANEE JATARE SAYANAM

IHA SAMSAARE BAHUDUSTAARE

KRIPAYAA(A)PAARE PAAHI MURARE

 

Undergoing the pangs of birth again and again, passing through the throes of death again and again, lying in the mother's womb over and over again, this process of samsara is hard to cross over. Save me from it, Oh merciful Lord !

 

Verse 22:

RATHYAACHARPATA VIRACHITAKANTHAH

PUNYAAPUNYA VIVARJITAPANTHAH

YOGEE YOGANIYOJITACHITHO

RAMATE BAALONMATTAVADEVA

 

Clad in stray rags, treading the path beyond good and evil, caring for neither earning merit by taking to good deeds nor stooping to do any evil, and lost in meditation the yogi revels in the Supreme always, lost to all outward norms and decorum -- his behaviour may look prankish like that of a child or may be even queer like that of a lunatic.

 

Verse 23:

KASTWAM KOHAM KUTA AAYAATAH

KAA ME JANANEE KO ME TAATAH

ITI PARIBHAVAYA SARVAMASAARAM

VISWAM TYAKTWAA SWAPNAVICHAARAM

 

Who are you ? Who am I ? From Where did I come? Who is my mother, who is my father? -- enquire thus and you will then realise that the entire world of experience, all the worries and problems are but a dream, a mere hallucination, born of imagination and delusion. With such a realisation, you will be freed from the delusions of the world.

 

Verse 24:

TWAYI MAYI CHAANYATRAIKO VISHNUH

VYARTHAM KUPYASI MAYYASAHISHNUH

BHAVA SAMACHITTAH SARVATRA TWAM

VANCHHASYASHIRAADYADI VISHNUTWA

 

In you, in me and everywhere, there is but the one Vishnu. Mistakenly viewing me with a sense of difference, you are ill-disposed towards me. Try to see in all beings only the Vishnu who is your own self. Give up your false and egoistic sense of separateness from other beings. Cultivate a sense of kinship, unity and oneness with all.

 

Verse 25:

SATROU MITRE PUTRE BANDHOU

MAA KURU YATNAM VIGRAHASANDHOU

SARVASMINNAPI PASYAATMAANAM

SARVATROTSRIJA BHEDAAJNYANA

 

Do not look at anybody in terms of friend or foe, brother or cousin; do not fritter away your mental energies in thoughts of friendship or enemity. Seeking the Self everywhere, be amiable and equal-minded towards all, treating all alike.

 

Verse 26:

KAAMAM KRODHAM LOBHAM MOHAM

TYAKTWAA TMAANAM PASHYATI SOHAM

AATMAJNANA VIHEENAA MUDAAH

TE PASYANTE NARAKANIGOODAAH

 

Free yourself from lust, anger, greed and delusion. Contemplate on 'who you are'. Enquire within yourself, who am I? The fools who fail to apprehend the Self are caught in hell-fire even here and now itself and suffer torture.

 

Verse 27:

GEYAM GEETAANAAMASAHASRAM

DHYEYAM SHREEPATIROOPAMAJASRAM

NEYAM SAJJANASANGE CHITTAM

DEYAM DEENAJANAAYA CHA VITTAM

 

Recite the Gita; chant the thousand Names of the lord (Vishnu Sahasranama), meditate ceaselessly on the Consort and Lord of Lakshmi; lead the mind towards association with the good. Give away your wealth in charity to those in need and who are poor.

 

Verse 28:

SUKHATAH KRIYATE RAAMAABHOGAH

PASCHADDHANTA SHAREERE ROGAH

YADYAPI LOKE MARANAM SARANAM

TADAPI NA MUNJCHATI PAAPAACHARANAM

 

As readily as one takes to indulging in carnal pleasures, with the same readiness, alas, he is taken over by disease too. Even seeing death as the inevitable and only end of all, man does not refrain from sinful ways.

 

Verse 29:

ARTHAMANARTHAM BHAAVAYA NITHYAM

NAASTI TATAH SUKHALESAH SATHYAM

PUTHRAADAPI DHANABHAAJAAM BHEETIH

SARVATRAISHA VIHITA REETIH

 

It is wealth only that causes all harm and brings about one's ruin. Bear this truth in mind always. Know that the pursuit of wealth does not lead one to happiness at all. The rich fear and are even afraid of their own sons. This is the outcome of riches anywhere and ever.

 

Verse 30:

PRAANAAYAAMAM PRATYAAHAARAM

NITYAANITYA VIVEKAVICHAARAM

JAAPYASAMETA SAMAADHIVIDHAANAM

KURVAVADHAANAM MAHADAVADHAANAM

 

Regulated breathing and sense control, discrimination between the Enduring and the fleeting, the Eternal and the transcient, Japa and meditation, and submerging of the bodily and mental consciousness in the Consciousness of the Spirit, merging oneself into the total Inner Silence -- one must practice these with unrelenting fervour.

 

Verse 31:

GURUCHARANAAMBUJA NIRBHARABHAKTHAH

SAMSAARAADACHIRAADHAVA MUKTHAH

SENDRIYA MAANASA NIYAMAADEVAM

DRAKSHYASI NIJAHRIDAYASTHAM DEVAM

 

Surrender yourself to the Lotus Feet of the Guru; with your senses and mind disciplined, and freed from the shackles of Samsara you will behold the Lord who is seated in your heart.

[suchandra]

 

Adi Shankaracharya revealed this:

 

*Bhaja Govindam of Adi Shankara*

 

Verse 1:

BHAJA GOVINDAM, BHAJA GOVINDAM

GOVINDAM BHAJA MUDHAMATE

SAMPRAAPTE SANNIHITE KALE

NA HI NA HI RAKSHATI DUKRINKARANE

 

Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Seek Govinda! Oh ignoramus, at the time of death the rules of grammer, which you are trying to cram and master, will not be able to rescue you at all.

 

 

Lord Siva opined in this connection that anyone who follows Shankaracharya's principles of the Sariraka-bhasya is doomed. This is confirmed in the Padma Purana:

 

"My dear wife, hear my explanations of how I have spread ignorance through Mayavada philosophy. Simply by hearing it, even an advanced scholar will fall down. In this philosophy, which is certainly very inauspicious for people in general, I have misrepresented the real meaning of the Vedas and recommended that one give up all activities in order to achieve freedom from karma. In this Mayavada philosophy I have described the jivatma and Paramatma to be one and the same." How the Shankaracharya's mayavada philosophy was condemned by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers is described in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya-lila, Second Chapter, verses 94 through 99, where Svarupa-damodara Gosvami says that anyone who is eager to understand the Shankaracharya's mayavada philosophy must be considered insane. This especially applies to a Vaisnava who reads the Sariraka-bhasya and considers himself to be one with God. Shankaracharya's Mayavadi philosophers have presented their arguments in such attractive, flowery language that hearing Mayavada philosophy may sometimes change the mind of even a maha-bhagavata, or very advanced devotee. An actual Vaisnava cannot tolerate any philosophy that claims God and the living being to be one and the same."

 

Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi lila 7:110

[sant]

In Ram Rahisya Upanishad It Says That Can Pray To ram As I Am Ram

[Guest Melvin1]

We should never forget( whether we embrace the philosophies of Shankaracarya, Christ Jesus, Buddha, etc.) devotional service to God. Here I quote Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu`s Siksastaka verse 1, " Glory to Sri Krsna sankirtana, which cleanses the heart of all the dust accumulated for years and extinguishes the fire of conditional life, of repeated birth and death. This sankirtana movement is the prime benediction for humanity at large because it spreads the rays of the benediction moon. It is the life of all transcendental knowledge. It increases the ocean of transcendental bliss, and it enables us to fully taste the nectar for which we are always anxious."

[andy108]

 

Why do you ritviks transform every other thread into a diksa debate????

 

Because if unqualified neophyte devotees would stop considering themselves qualified to initiate and give their own neophyte speculative opinion as to what instructions meet time place and circumstance, and just be the kind of Siksa Guru's Bhaktivedanta Swami wanted them to be, there wouldn't be the problems there are today.

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="top"> Here is Srila Prabhupada simple explanation on this very ridiculously simple and obvious issue of guru; the "who" and the "How" of it all.

 

CC Madhya LIla Chapter 7 verse 128

 

"Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.”

 

 

PURPORT:

 

This is the sublime mission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness...one should stay at home, chant the Hare Krsna mantra and preach the instructions of Krsna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam...One may remain a householder, a medical practitioner, an engineer or whatever. It doesn’t matter. One only has to follow the instruction of Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu, chant the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and instruct relatives and friends in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. One has to learn humility and meekness at home, following the instructions of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and in that way one’s life will be spiritually successful. One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided. It is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual master and be freed from the contamination of material life." (Cc Madhya Chapter 7 128-130)

 

So clearly, the instruction is for many siksa, or instructing, gurus, not more diksa gurus. This is further explained by Srila Prabhupada:

 

"So any child can carry these words. Any foolish man can carry these words. And if you do that, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, then you become guru, simply by carrying these words. Amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Even in your village, in your home, you can say to your wife, to your children. They will accept you that "Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." Then you become guru at home." (SP Darshan, December 3rd 1976)

 

"Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu... Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You become guru. No qualification required. Simply you repeat what Krsna has said." Just see how simplified. Don't talk anything nonsense. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-bas. So who cannot do it? Anyone can do it, even a child." (SP Conversation, January 25th 1977)

 

So anyone can become a "local guru" - even a foolish man, an unqualified man or a child. And if anyone is interested in following Srila Prabhupada's instructions in this matter, he will heed the warning: "It is best not to accept any disciples."

 

Srila Prabhupada also gave the following warning in his 1961 Vyasa Puja offering:

 

"If everyone just initiates then there will only be a contradictory result. As long as it goes on, there will be only failure."

 

"One should not try to be an artificially advanced devotee, thinking, “I am a first-class devotee.” Such thinking should be avoided."

 

The truth is that all such Siksa Guru Spiritual Masters who would follow Srila Prabhupada's orders and sadhana system, cent per cent, would be disciplining the new disciples and practically speaking the new initiates would be disciples of these Siksa Gurus.

 

Yet also, in reality, because of the transcendental potency of the Acarya and his very authorized words on the subject, each new disciple initiated through a ritvik priest would become his Granddisciple, as he once mentioned. He was to remain the initiating Diksa Guru in Iskcon.

 

Following this program removes the possibility of a neophyte receiving the elaborate Guru puja given to Saksad Hari Uttama Disksa Gurus. Among other things. Including that everyone is considered first and foremost a disciple of the Grandfather PitaMaha Founder-Acarya, and then a disciple of the Siksa Guru who helps him understand their Varna and Asrama, how to engage in public Sankirtana, how to engage in Arcana, cook and distribute Prasadam, and tells him which books to read.

 

The Siksa Guru has a very simple and limited range of instructions for a reason, so as not to become a micromanager of every breath a new disciple takes.

 

The control freaks who need undue adoration among us hate this concept, want someone a their beck and call and waiting with baited breath for every command from their garbage mouth.

 

It is quite a shame.

 

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

 

And this was good how? His disciples were so poorly trained that they made up all sorts of bogus philosophies and bogus practices even when Prabhupada was still with them. And when Prabhupada left, they promptly transformed his mission into a total sham. Today you ritviks rightly criticize current "jet-lag gurus" because they fly here and there and never have time to properly train their disciples. Prabhupada did not train up very well even his leading disciples, what to speak of the rank and file members.

 

True colors. Sorry Kula, not even you can train someones free-will to choose to love and respect you and accept that training to be a means of spiritual purification instead of a system to use to subjugate others.

 

Also, you neglect the fact that some were trained quite well, and have bided their time, training maybe one or two loyal and honest disciples. They may not have a huge public profile, yet, but considering all the properties and resources were stolen and now unavailable, patience is required no?

 

 

Prabhupada had no choice but to try to train his disciples from afar - he was trying to start Mahaprabhu's movement in the West, translate books, etc. But that does not mean that this strategy did not have an inherent risk. It was a compromise, a risk Prabhupada took for the sake of Lord Caitanya's mission - not a practice to be followed from now on.

 

YOU do not decide what is to be done within the asrama of Bhaktivedanta Swami "from now on" according to your whim. That is not your call. Don't kid yourself, or others, that is a waste of your time and theirs.

 

Just look at what he said to do, if you care, and represent that. Or find another mission to give your speculative armchair commentary on, since you obviously don't have the stuff to create your own.

[Gita Dharma]

 

I'm not sure if Prabhupada considered Mohammed and Jesus being great devotees of Krishna. He considered them great devotees of God in general, altough I doubt he studied either one of them in detail. Since these two personalities inspired so many millions of people to surrender to God over many centuries, Prabhupada considered them to be great devotees. Would mahajans like Prahlada, Janaka or Bhishma disagree? I doubt that. Bhaktivinoda Thakura would certainly agree with Srila Prabhupada, for his religious vision was also very broad.

 

 

Swami Prabhupāda: "Even those who are constantly engaged in sinful acts are all corrigible to the standard of perfect human beings if they take shelter of the devotees of the Lord. Jesus Christ and Muhammad, two powerful devotees of the Lord, have done tremendous service on behalf of the Lord on the surface of the globe." http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=14363

 

Swami Prabhupāda: "Yes. Lord Jesus Christ, he was Vaiṣṇava." http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=161716

 

[Gita Dharma]

Only one teaching from Sri Adi Sankara was quoted - not his entire philosophy.

What part of Bhaja Govindam do you disagree with?

In and of itself it seems to comport with the teachings of Bhagavad Gita.

 

 

Lord Siva opined in this connection that anyone who follows Shankaracharya's principles of the Sariraka-bhasya is doomed. This is confirmed in the Padma Purana:

 

"My dear wife, hear my explanations of how I have spread ignorance through Mayavada philosophy. Simply by hearing it, even an advanced scholar will fall down. In this philosophy, which is certainly very inauspicious for people in general, I have misrepresented the real meaning of the Vedas and recommended that one give up all activities in order to achieve freedom from karma. In this Mayavada philosophy I have described the jivatma and Paramatma to be one and the same." How the Shankaracharya's mayavada philosophy was condemned by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers is described in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya-lila, Second Chapter, verses 94 through 99, where Svarupa-damodara Gosvami says that anyone who is eager to understand the Shankaracharya's mayavada philosophy must be considered insane. This especially applies to a Vaisnava who reads the Sariraka-bhasya and considers himself to be one with God. Shankaracharya's Mayavadi philosophers have presented their arguments in such attractive, flowery language that hearing Mayavada philosophy may sometimes change the mind of even a maha-bhagavata, or very advanced devotee. An actual Vaisnava cannot tolerate any philosophy that claims God and the living being to be one and the same."

 

Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi lila 7:110

[suchandra]

 

Only one teaching from Sri Adi Sankara was quoted - not his entire philosophy.

What part of Bhaja Govindam do you disagree with?

In and of itself it seems to comport with the teachings of Bhagavad Gita.

Things are getting out of context here. Someone said above, Jesus didn't reveal very much, "but never did they describe to us a God who is fully decorated who stands with His body curved in three ways, whose eyebrows are always moving, who appears as a cowherd boy, a newly grown youth who plays the flute."

 

I replied above that at least Jesus taught that God is a person, whereas Shankaracarya and Lord Buddha taught voidism and mayavada.

 

That Shankaracarya also mentioned Bhaja Govindam is rather a hidden thing not known by many.

Officially the purpose of Shankaracarya's appearance was to teach mayavadha philosophy by misinterpreting the Vedas.

[Kulapavana]

 

YOU do not decide what is to be done within the asrama of Bhaktivedanta Swami "from now on" according to your whim. That is not your call.

 

No, it is not my call. It is the call of the leaders of this movement that Prabhupada chose and trained. He picked the lineup and they are the ones who play the game. I am just commenting on their performance as the game unfolds. So far it was not a very good show.

[Kulapavana]

 

That Shankaracarya also mentioned Bhaja Govindam is rather a hidden thing not known by many.

 

Wrong again. From Wikipedia:

 

"Bhaja Govindam is a very popular 8th century[1] Hindu devotional composition in Sanskrit composed by Adi Shankaracharya. This work of Adi Shankara underscores the view that devotion (Bhakti) to God, Govinda, is a vastly important part of general spirituality and especially Bhakti Yoga and Bhakti movement [2] This work is generally considered a good summary of Advaita Vedanta."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaja_Govindam

 

Prabhupada actually said that it is OK to read Adi Shankaracharya's books, but not the books of his followers.

[andy108]

 

No, it is not my call. It is the call of the leaders of this movement that Prabhupada chose and trained. He picked the lineup and they are the ones who play the game. I am just commenting on their performance as the game unfolds. So far it was not a very good show.

 

I find alot of good from their poor showing. We are shown what not to do. We are shown the results of not actually following the verbatim instructions of the Acarya who gives the training.

 

In addition, what escapes you is that Srila Prabhupada designed things so that all of his instructions and training would be there to be recognized understood digested and assimilated by anyone who was not present then.

 

I learned arcana through writings on the internet.

 

I am learned in his instructions because he insisted that his conversations, lectures, etc be meticulously recorded for posterity.

 

Thus the true leaders of his actual movement are not represented by the cheaters who claim such who have rejected his orders. They are simply the leaders of the Western version of the Gaudiya Matha.

 

No the true leaders are taking in his Vani, learning from the mistakes of the cheaters, and slowly recognizing one another and coming together despite all odds to execute his true desire. By the book. No speculation necessary.

[bhaktajan]

Sucandra, kulapavana says, you are "Wrong again"

 

Ha HA Ha! --- WARNING to all other readers:

 

You cannot immitate the Mood of Kula & sucandra! You would be a pretender if you tried. But this is a worthy goal to seek-out!

 

Old life in Iskcon for those fortunate few in its foundling years, --have all had these types of fraternal exchanges.

 

Sucandra & Kulapavana are both playing out long withheld utterances, some petty and some more or less sublime and some just in passing --but here it is with faux sparks.