vishnu not supreme- proof (no tamasic texts have i mentioned)?

[sant]

And, amongst these S’âstras again, the Vedânta is the Sâttvik, the Mimâmsas are the Râjasik and the Nyâya S’âstras with Hetuvâdas, are the Tâmasik; so the S’âstras are varied. Similarly, the Purânas are of three kinds :-- (1) S’attvik, (2) Râjasik and (3) Tâmasik. O Saumya! (one of gentle appearance) you have recited those Purânas endowed with five characteristics and full of many narratives; of these, the fifth Purâna, equivalent to the Vedas and with all the good qualities, the Bhâgavata yields Dharma and Kâma (religion and desires), gives liberation to those who desire for emancipation and is very wonderful; you mentioned this before but ordinarily; you did not dwell on this specially. Now these Brâhmanas are eager to hear gladly this divine auspicious Bhâgavata, the best of the Purânas; so kindly describe this in detail.

devi bhg.1st book chapter 1

 

it itself is mentioning that puraans are classified into rajasic tamasic sattvic so is it tamsic?

THIS PURAAAN ITSELF CLAIMS TO BE THE 5TH VEDA JUST LIKE THE BHAGWAT

IT IS OF 18000 VERSES JUST LIKE THE SR. BHAGWAT.

 

THE SRIMAD BHAGWAT IS ONE STRONG BASE OF VAISHNAV DHARM AND IS CONSIDERED SUPREME PURAAN BY VAISHNAVS.

THEY CALL IT A NATURAL COMMENTARY BY THE VEDAS.

 

 

BUT THIS DEVI BHAGWAT HAS SOME SIMILAR CLAIMS.

AND IT IS AMAZINGLY DETAILED.

[ranjeetmore]

It INDEED is amazingly detailed.

Firstly,

So,can you tell me the conclusion of this Devi bhagavatam ??

 

secondly,

Tell me ONE SINGLE theory which fits in with the vedic revelations.

The eternal truth has three aspects,as mentioned in the vedas.

One is Jeevatma.

The other is jada maya.

and the third is Sri Bhagavan Who is the controller of these two.

 

Now who is this shakti who is the origin of BRahm itself ??

Tell me just one vedic statement describing this shakti,who is the origin of brahm.In the devi bhagavata,Sri KRsna is said to be raso vai saha, He is Bhagavan,it is said.

So you should tell me just one vedic statement stating that Shakti is the origin of this brahm,Who is Rasa Himself.

Just ONE.

[Sonic Yogi]

Here is an interesting verse from the Devi Bhagavat that supports that Vishnu is Supreme.

 

 

 

Chapter V

 

 

 

On the narrative of Hayagrîva

 

1-4. The Risis said :-- “O Sûta! Our minds are merged in the sea of doubt, hearing your this most wonderful saying, surprising to the whole world. The head of Janârdan Mâdhava, the Lord of all, was severed out of His body! And He was afterwards known as Hayagrîva, the horse-faced! Oh! what more wonder can there be than this? Whom the Vedas even praise, all the Devas rest on Whom, Who is the Cause of all causes,

 

 

This Janardan Madhava spoken of here is a name of Lord Vishnu.

It says here clearly in the Devi Bhagavat that Lord Vishnu is supreme and the cause of all causes whom the Devas rest on.

[Sonic Yogi]

again in the Devi Bhagavat we find:

V

 

 

5-9. Sûta said :-- O Munis! Hear all attentively the glorious deeds of the supremely energetic Visnu, the Deva of the Devas. Once on a time the eternal Deva Janârdana became tired after the terrible continuous battle for ten thousand years. After this the Lord Nârâyana seated Himself on Padmâsan (a kind of posture) in some lovely place on a level plot of ground and placing his head on the front of his bow with the bow strung and placed erect on the ground fell fast asleep. Visnu, the Lord of Ramâ, was exceedingly tired and thus he fell soon into deep sleep. At this time Indra and the other Devas, with Brahmâ and Mahesâ began a sacrifice.

[Sonic Yogi]

Devi Bhagavat:

V

 

 

10-13. Then they, for the sake of success in Deva's well, went to the region of Vaikuntha to meet with the Deva Janârdana, the Lord of sacrifices. There the Devas, not finding Visnu, came to know by their Dhyân (meditation) where Bhagavân Visnu was staying and thither they went. They saw that the Lord Visnu, the Deva of the Devas was lying unconscious, being under the arms of Yoganidrâ (the yogic sleep). Therefore they took their seats there. Seeing the Lord of the universe asleep, Brahmâ, Rudra and the other Devas became anxious.

[Sonic Yogi]

Actually, the Gaudiya Vaishnavas have been described as shaktas.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja made the point that the Gaudiya Vaishnavas are suddha-shaktas or worshipers of the pure spiritual shakti of Krishna.

 

The point lost on most shaktas is that each shakti or power or energy has a source.

We know in this world by looking all around that there is a source to all the energy.

We have nuclear powerplants that create this energy or release this energy for use as electricity.

 

So, the very idea that shakti or Devi has no controller or source is against all the teachings of the Vedas on shakti and shaktiman.

 

The Vedic siddhanta clearly established that shaktiman is the source of the shakti, but that under certain conditions the Shaktiman agrees to become subservient to the Shakti.

 

So, in the Devi Bhagavat what we find is the Shakta siddhanta that in fact yes, Vishnu is subordinate to Devi in some ways but what the shaktas fail to grasp is that Vishnu agrees to be subordinate to Devi for the purpose of the material creation.

 

However, through out all the Vedic conclusions we always find that the Shaktiman is the owner and controller of the Shakti even though sometimes for his own lila he chooses to be subordinate to her.

 

This Devi Bhagavat simply emphasis this aspect of the Divine play where Lord Vishnu assumes subordination to Devi as part of his divine lila.

 

However, the Shaktas have taken this concept out of context in abject denial of the Vedic conclusions about the Shaktiman and the Shakti.

 

So, yes Shakta is the topmost position in self-realization if in fact it is Suddha-shakta.

 

The Devi worshipers are not suddha-shakta.

They are misra-shakta because their devotion is not pure due to not understanding the Supreme position of Lord Vishnu/Krishna.

[ranjeetmore]

But sonic yogi,

This text is very disheartening.

This text states that Nara Narayana,the Supreme Lord's incarnation are in sattva guna.

It also states that Lord Narayana was rendered 'lifeless' by Yoganidra.

When such incidents are narrated by siddha bhaktas,they say it with their humour and clearly describing the nature of incident as LEELA.

 

But this has trickled down into something very abominable(in some parts of the devi bhagavatam.)

On one hand,Goloka and Vaikuntha are said to be the ONLY ETERNAL places in the devi bhagavatam,whereas in other places,the dealings between Sri Narayana and Ganga are described as though they are pervert.(in spritual vaikuntha !)

This is very disturbing.Vaishnavas of the past condemned kalidas very strongly for stating that Uma got drunk.We see no shaktas objecting to such false narration about the Supreme Lord's activities.

This is very wrong indeed.

[gokulkr]

all i can say is no use in arguing with shaivas or sakthas as even in this forum itself manytimes vaishnavas have pointed out with appropriate proofs from vedas that Lord vishnu is supreme. Vedas are ultimate authority. if they wanted to debate in a wise-manner let them point appropriate proof from vedas rather than puranas.

 

but shaivas and sakthas wanted to read only wat they believe. so they always stick to their puranas. Also only bagavatham, bagavath gita, vishnu shashranama has been accepted widely and been written bashyas by 90% of acharyas.

 

Om Namo Narayana

[hindustani]

Sant Can you give me a list of tamasic purana?Aftr this I shall start posting my arguements,go ahead please.

 

it is nota a tamasic purana mentioned in the list of tamasic puranas whereas it itself all the more talks about puranas being tamasic,sattwic and rajasic.

 

[hindustani]

Mr.Ranjeetmore

Try to control your language,you are perhaps not a KG student.I am reporting your post to admin rt now.

 

Kaisersose,you rascal.

What do you have to say to this ?

 

[sant]

dear ranjeetmore this devi bhagvatm dioes not say anything about devi being origin of brahman.

it just says that devi is itself brahman and that she can be realized only in samadhi.read devi gita.

you can become one with the brahman by worshipping devi and that is said in devi gita.

 

 

EVEN I FELT DISHEARTENED WHEN I READ IT FIRST.

I COMPLETELY REJECTED IT AT FIRST.

I FEEL DISHEARTENED WHEN VISHNU IS BEING CONSIDERED SMALL IN VARIOUS PURANAS.AS EVEN I PRAY TO KRISHNA AS GOD READING ISKCON AND SRILA PRABHUPADA'S BOOKS.

NOW WHEN I USED TO SEE THAT KRISHNA OR VISHNU CONSIDERED LOW THEN SOMETIMES I ALSO I USED TO FEEL LOW DISHEARTENED.

 

I THINK THAT ONE HAS TO GRASP WHAT PURANAS REALLY HAS TO SAY.

THIS PURAAN CONSIDERS SRI KRISHNA LOW IN CHAPTER 4 WHEN HE IS CONSIDERED A INCARNATE OF VISHNU.MANY PURAANS SAY THIS.

 

BUT SRI KRISHNA HAS BEEN CONSIDERED SUPREME IN THE THE TEXTS I HAVE SHOWN IN MY EARLIER POSTS SUCH AS IN 9TH BOOK.

A GOOD SHAKT OR SHAIV IS NOT GOING TO DENY THAT KRISHNA CANNOT GIVE MOKSH OR NOT CAPABLE OF WORSHIP OR PROVIDE MOKSH AS ALL SHATRAS SAY THIS.

SHIVA CAN PROVIDE MOKSH MANY PLACE IT IS MENTIONED. PLEASE SHIVA IS NOT A JIVA EVEN SRILA PRABHUPADA SAYS THAT.

 

WELL I THINK THAT GOD LIKES MYSTERY. THAT IS WHY SUCH THINGS ARE CONTRADICTORY.

GOD IS NOT GOING TO BE KNOWN SO EASILY UNLESS HIS MERCY IS SHOWN ON PEOPLE .

 

AND IF ONE READS SHAKT SHAIV AND VAISHNAV PHILOSOPHHY'S THEN I HAVE MADE ONE POINT IN WHO'S GOD FORUM.IF ANYBODY CAN ARGUE WITH THAT THEN PLEASE DO SO.

[sant]

DEAR HINDUSTANI HEARS YOUR ANSWER-According to the Padma Purana,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-23>[24]</SUP> the texts may be classified in accordance with the three gunas or qualities; truth, passion, and ignorance:

 

• Sattva ("truth; purity"): Vishnu Purana, Bhagavata Purana, Naradeya Purana, Garuda Purana, Padma Purana, Varaha Purana
  
• Rajas ("dimness; passion"): Brahmanda Purana, Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Markandeya Purana, Bhavishya Purana, Vamana Purana, Brahma Purana
  
• Tamas ("darkness; ignorance"): Matsya Purana, Kurma purana, Linga Purana, Shiva Purana, Skanda Purana, Agni Purana

 

[hindustani]

Ok noted.I reply differently.

Take 3 rasas and compare them with 3 gunas.

Sweet taste

Bitter taste

and

Chilly taste.

Guna

Sattva

Rajas

and

Tamas.

Now for our tangues all 3 tastes are must,no food we can eat constantly with any single taste mentioned above,no way!

Hence all 3 gunas are must in universe,so let's not separate them,all are must in this case.Problem is because of Maya we see all gunas differently and try to analyse them.

If my knowledge is right then in padma purana it has been mentioned that in Kaliyug Maya will stop us worshiping God !

So dont go much deep in who is bigger-better-stronger,we are children of God so better we should stop discussing this and try to concentrate in pure bhakti in this kaliyug,more you read or refer shashtras you will find yourself in soup and this happens with most of people and they are so confused(even in this forum)and try to change their path of devotion............and that is Maya.

 

DEAR HINDUSTANI HEARS YOUR ANSWER-According to the Padma Purana,<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-23>[24]</SUP> the texts may be classified in accordance with the three gunas or qualities; truth, passion, and ignorance:

 

• Sattva ("truth; purity"): Vishnu Purana, Bhagavata Purana, Naradeya Purana, Garuda Purana, Padma Purana, Varaha Purana
  
• Rajas ("dimness; passion"): Brahmanda Purana, Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Markandeya Purana, Bhavishya Purana, Vamana Purana, Brahma Purana
  
• Tamas ("darkness; ignorance"): Matsya Purana, Kurma purana, Linga Purana, Shiva Purana, Skanda Purana, Agni Purana

 

[sant]

whos bhakti do you say

[hindustani]

In general.

 

whos bhakti do you say

[sant]

no tell me

 

you tell me to concentrate on bhakti so be specific

 

why shouldnt i refer to shastras what is the problem

the shastras guide us to god.

the veda are the word of god arent they

[hindustani]

Coz

the answer you are trying to find is not an easy one,Buddha did lot of tapa and finally got an answer under the bodhi tree,same go for our rishis.All of them must have studied shashtras and vedas.

Hope picture is clearer in your mind now.

There is a huge difference between Sadhna and Bhakti and I think I need not to write on it,I presume you know the difference.Bhakti is a sure way to reach to a goal,sadhna is a short cut but many obsticles will come in your path.

PS-Do one thing,when you get time read few pages of any shashtras or even Veda.Then close your eyes,try to digest what you read out of it.

Then-

Chant any mantra or Shri Hanuman Chalisa or Shri Lalita Sahastranama or Shri Vishnu sahastranama or........anything of your choice like Shri Durga stuti or...list is long.

Then again close your eyes.

Try to find difference in both experence,in longer run you will get the answer which you are looking for.It is a long process.

 

no tell me

 

you tell me to concentrate on bhakti so be specific

 

why shouldnt i refer to shastras what is the problem

the shastras guide us to god.

the veda are the word of god arent they

[sant]

what is the goal

how is sadhana a shortkut

i dont know much about sadhana

one more thing do you follow avdhoot baba shivananad

[hindustani]

Goal is to reach the God,to understand God,to offer your services to God by many ways and one of them is doing seva of all jiva.If I cannot do seva I better stop myself for not doing anything bad to others-this is maha seva.

Sadhna is a short cut coz there is a specific achivement eyed in,where in Bhakti there is no goal except reaching the God.

Few examples of Pure Bhakti.

Shri Mirabai

Shri Sudama

Shri Hanumanji

Shri Shabari

now quote a single example if any of above studied vedas to reach the God.Atleast I am not aware of it,they only focused their aim to reach their goal and they finally achieved it in their life.

I have sometimes watched him on TV and I like his ways of preaching(Baba Shivananda).

 

what is the goal

how is sadhana a shortkut

i dont know much about sadhana

one more thing do you follow avdhoot baba shivananad

[sant]

thank you for answring

to your question -now quote a single example if any of above studied vedas to reach the God

surya bhagawan was hanuman jees guru and taught him the vedas.

it is written in the ramayan isnt it?

shabari also had a guru.

i have just seen on tv these parts.

not read the part yet so i am not going to quote.

 

these personalities were only interested in serving god.

they are too great

so they knew what god is

they knew who they were.

so loving god is the goal of life if you listen to their advice.

[hindustani]

Ok now I think we are moving out of topic,Sant what is your motto?Why you feel some god is superior and some is inferior?

How we can judge this when we cannot know how much money is in swiss bank even?or even in our bank.I urge you not to compare any Gods with others,it is a sin-paap.

[sant]

who says it is paap.

if god is one then

if god is one then then why do you say gods

which god to serve

[hindustani]

I say

 

who says it is paap

Thats you say by comparing Shri Vishnu with ......and that is why I used word Gods and not God.

 

if god is one then

if god is one then then why do you say gods

First you serve yourself,if you can serve you better your soul one day will show you a right path.

 

which god to serve

 

This ends my discussion here.

[sant]

thank you

I WAS JUST HAVING FUN WITH DISCUSSION

SORRY IF I WASTED YOUR TIME.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

who says it is paap.

if god is one then

if god is one then then why do you say gods

which god to serve

 

The conception of God and the conception of Absolute Truth are not on the same level. The Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam hits on the target of the Absolute Truth. The conception of God indicates the controller, whereas the conception of the Absolute Truth indicates the summum bonum or the ultimate source of all energies. There is no difference of opinion about the personal feature of God as the controller because a controller cannot be impersonal. Of course modern government, especially democratic government, is impersonal to some extent, but ultimately the chief executive head is a person, and the impersonal feature of government is subordinate to the personal feature. So without a doubt whenever we refer to control over others we must admit the existence of a personal feature. Because there are different controllers for different managerial positions, there may be many small gods. According to the Bhagavad-gītā any controller who has some specific extraordinary power is called a vibhūtimat sattva, or controller empowered by the Lord. There are many vibhūtimat sattvas, controllers or gods with various specific powers, but the Absolute Truth is one without a second. This Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam designates the Absolute Truth or the summum bonum as the paraḿ satyam.