Moksha

[Connie]

What is moksha?

[hindustani]

Moksha mean liberation from repeated birth cycles for soul which after getting moksha permenantly rest with God.

[gHari]

Here are the words of a pure soul on the matter of moksha or liberation from bondage:

 

 

So the whole aim is liberation. We are conditioned by material nature. We have got this material body. Therefore our aim should be how to become liberated from this contamination, accepting birth after birth, material body. This is the need of human being. The animals cannot know that there is a thing like liberation. They cannot understand. The human being also says that after finishing this body everything is finished. That is liberation. No. This is animalism. So dharma artha kAma mokSa. So mokSa, there are different types of mokSa, or liberation. The MAyAvAda philosophers, the impersonalists, they think mokSa means to merge into the effulgence of KRSNa, brahmajyoti. That is also accepted, merging. But that kind of mokSa is not accepted by the VaiSNava, because to merge into the effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead may be liberation from this material world, but that does not mean that is actual liberation. Just like if you, from darkness of night, if you come to the sunlight, it is light of course, but sunshine or sunlight, if you go up with your airplane, "Now I shall live in the sunshine or sunlight and travel for millions of years...," you cannot travel millions of years. One day or three days or four days, then you come back again to this... If you can approach the sun planet, then there is stay. Otherwise you have to come back. Similarly, those who are taking shelter of the effulgence, which is the bodily rays of KRSNa, they will have to come back. Many, many big, big sannyAsIs, they have come back again to these material activities.

 

 

So mokSa... SAyujya. It is called sAyujya-mokSa. Merging. SAyujya, sArUpya, sAlokya, sArSTi, sAmIpya. Five kinds of liberation. So for the VaiSNavas, this merging liberation is rejected. They accept the other four kinds of..., sArUpya, sAlokya, sAmIpya, sArSTi. Means to possess equal opulence with God. As KRSNa is full in six kinds of opulences, one can become almost as opulent as KRSNa. Not as KRSNa, as ViSNu. That is called sArSTi. One can have equal, exactly the same bodily features as ViSNu, four hands. That is called sArUpya. SAlokya, you can live in the same planet where ViSNu is living, NArAyaNa is living, or KRSNa is living. SAlokya. So... But a pure devotee does not accept even all these liberations. They don't ask for liberation. Pure devotee is satisfied only with the service of the Lord. That is pure devotion. Because there is no desire. That is explained here. Ahaituky apratihatA. "Oh, I am engaged in KRSNa consciousness because after death I shall go back to home, back to Godhead." Of course, that's a fact. But a pure devotee even does not desire that. He says, "Wherever KRSNa will keep me, I shall remain there. It doesn't matter whether heaven or hell. I don't care for it." NArAyaNa-parAH sarve na kutazcana bibhyati.

 

 

Actually one who is nArAyaNa-para, pure KRSNa conscious devotee of the Lord, he's not afraid of going to hell or being promoted to heaven. For him everything is all right.

 

nArAyaNa-parAH sarve

 

na kutazcana bibhyati

 

svargApavarga-narakeSv

 

api tulyArtha-darzinaH

 

[sB 6.17.28]

 

For heaven or hell, it doesn't matter. That is pure devotion. AnyAbhilASitA-zUnyam [brs. 1.1.11], without any desire. That is also desire, that "I am going back to home, back to Godhead." But that desire is very highly qualified desire. But a pure devotee does not desire even that. AnyAbhilASitA-zUnyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. They do not desire... What to... They do not desire even to go back to Godhead, and what to desire for being elevated or promoted to the heavenly planets. They simply want, "Let me remain wherever KRSNa desires. I may be engaged in His service." That is pure devotee. That's all. AnyAbhilASitA-zUnyaM jJAna-karmAdy-anAvRtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. JJAnIs, they want to merge. KarmIs, they want to be elevated to the heavenly planet. Yogis, they want mystic power. They want something. A pure devotee does not want anything. Therefore it is called ahaitukI. Hetu means cause. "I am serving God for this cause: I'll go back to home back to Godhead." That is also cause. AhaitukI. No cause. "KRSNa is my lovable Deity. I must serve." That is pure devotion.

 

[sambya]

moksha is freedom from material existence or repeated circles of birth and death . but hindu sects differ in what happens to the soul after moksha .

 

as per my understanding hindustani is reffering to the most common concept of moksha as followed in india .

 

and ghari is reffering to moksha as understood by vaishnavas (followers of krishna or vishnu )

 

but all sects do agree that it is a cessation of birth cycles . sects preffering personal form of god ( for eg-vaishnavas) believe that after moksha they go back to the eternal kingdom or planet of god to remain with him forever .

 

sects preffering impersonal or formless aspect of god believe that the soul ultimately realizes the perfect unity(god) and thus cease to exist as an individual soul . this is a difficult concept and indepth study is needed to understand this theory .

 

is short , moksha is the end result of spiritual practice through which a soul get liberated from sufferings and material existence ....

[Connie]

Thank you.

 

I will tell you more about my question.

 

I have strong bhakti tendencies, or did. I have some jnani understanding. I know advaita vedantas.

 

Is moksha liberation from samsara? or, rather to say, liberation from illusion, then? I am experiencing that.

 

Is moksha merging? Is moksha the "salt doll" who finding the ocean, knows they are salt and knows they are the ocean? that merging? I have that.

 

Is moksha no rebirth? never?

 

or, voluntary like Tibetan lamas? or bodhisattvas?

 

Is moksha "only" liberation from ignorance? or is moksha finally liberation from ignorance!

 

 

sambya,

is short , moksha is the end result of spiritual practice through which a soul get liberated from sufferings and material existence ....

that sounds VERY SWEET, to me.

[sambya]

 

I have strong bhakti tendencies, or did

thats highly natural . its extremely difficult to do away with bhakti . bhakti is the yugadharma . it is definitely the easiest path to self realization. bhakti is the dharma of kaliyuga . moreover most gurus agree that bhakti is the path for the western world also .

 

 

Is moksha liberation from samsara? or, rather to say, liberation from illusion, then? I am experiencing that.

its not merely a desire to be detached or an aversion to samsara . it the highest perfectional stage . when you are very close to that stage you might remain in samsara physically but you remain unaffected by its happenings. for ex-- you remain unmoved even in extreme grief and extreme happiness . read gita . everythings explained there . but dont read the as it is version of iskcon right at the begining . it is quite sectarian .

 

 

Is moksha merging? Is moksha the "salt doll" who finding the ocean, knows they are salt and knows they are the ocean? that merging? I have that.

 

well , it depends on what sect you are folowing . to the advaitins it is the salt doll thing . but one thing is true -- a jiva after attaining moksha doesnt come back to material plane to educate people . so its not possible to be known unless felt for yourself . infact almost all of hinduism is about feeling . you have to practice and attain that stage to understand that .

 

 

Is moksha no rebirth? never?

never !! rebirth is only beacuse you have your karma left . it might be good karma or bad . for ex- you were a very charitable person last bith . no matter how much spiritually uplifted you are you shall have to take rebith just to enjoy the good fruits of your past good deeds . similarly one has to be reborn to recieve the punishments of his bad deeds . this balance sheet is going on and on . on reaching moksha both your accumulated fruits of good and bad deeds become zero . naturally there arise no reason for you to take another birth -- you have done away with both of them .

 

 

or, voluntary like Tibetan lamas? or bodhisattvas?

 

as per my knowledge tibetan lamas are alo seeking souls much like indian sadhus or sadhaks . their heads like dalai lama or rinpoche lama are avataars . bodhisattvas are expansions of god himself . they are avatars and rules applicable to jivas doesnt apply to them .

 

 

Is moksha "only" liberation from ignorance? or is moksha finally liberation from ignorance!

 

 

 

i guess it is finally liberation from ignorance . it might as well be the only liberation . prema bhakti of dualists automatically entitles an individual to be situated on the level of moksha . altough a dualist seekrs would never hanker for moksha !!

[sant]

love to krisna itself is the fruit for vaishnavs

it is for the rarest of the rarest

[ranjeetmore]

Ahaituky apratihata.

 

Marvellous..

 

I was trying to recall the sanskrit terms for the conditions of purest form of bhakti: Selfless and COntinuous.

 

This is the final word.Serve Ananda kanda Sri Krsna.Attain His bhakti.

And just see what happens...

 

History shows that Brahm-jnyanis who constantly would experience brahmananda,have jumped from their samadhis and RAN to learn more about Sri Krsna after hearing one simple krsna katha "Sri Krsna awarded Putana His own abode eventhough she "tried" to kill Him."

 

This is the final realisation.Realisation of Godhead,Sri Krsna.Eternal variegatedness like the Names,Parikars,Qualities,Leelas,etc of Sri Krsna provides so much more ananda that ordinary liberation is not considered.

 

One like me can only try and fail to expound clearly as did the pure soul,in the post of Ghari,but stressing the point along the same lines is better than nothing.

[ranjeetmore]

P.S : Sri Shankaracharya CRIED like a mad man just so that he could obtain constant remembrance of the Lotus feet of Sri Krsna.He said he wants no liberation like some foolish people*.

 

* especially the people of the sect started by himself.

[sambya]

 

History shows that Brahm-jnyanis who constantly would experience brahmananda,have jumped from their samadhis and RAN to learn more about Sri Krsna after hearing one simple krsna katha "Sri Krsna awarded Putana His own abode eventhough she "tried" to kill Him."

 

it should have begun as -- mythology shows...... or legend shows etc

 

putana , samadhi etc are not topics of history .

[Amlesh]

 

it should have begun as -- mythology shows...... or legend shows etc

 

putana , samadhi etc are not topics of history .

After reading the Gita, I'm more convinced of the existencev of Putana than my own existence.

[Guest Melvin1]

Moksha to me is when you don`t care what happens in this life or the next because you have completely surrendered yourself to Krsna. You let Him take the driver`s seat for you, so to speak. Quoting the words of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu( Siksastaka verse 8 ), " I know no one but Krsna as my Lord, and He shall remain so even if He handles me roughly by His embrace or makes me heartbroken by not being present before me. He is completely free to do anyting and everything, for He is always my worshipful Lord unconditionally."

[sambya]

 

After reading the Gita, I'm more convinced of the existence of Putana than my own existence.

 

even i dont like disbelieving them but at the same time they are not history in proper sense of term .

[sant]

 

even i dont like disbelieving them but at the same time they are not history in proper sense of term .

 

i dont blame you one has to seee devtas or read about them to beleive in them

this is also mentioned

[ranjeetmore]

yet we know the fact that shankaracarya existed and we know his great person.If we accept his integrity,we have to accept that Srila Vedavyasa was infact a historic person.The rest is easy to conclude : This faultless person,Vedavyasa authored a book called bhagavatam after realising the events in trance.

 

Easy rite ?

[sant]

 

yet we know the fact that shankaracarya existed and we know his great person.If we accept his integrity,we have to accept that Srila Vedavyasa was infact a historic person.The rest is easy to conclude : This faultless person,Vedavyasa authored a book called bhagavatam after realising the events in trance.

 

Easy rite ?

 

 

yes but if we say the faith of a billion people is their imagination

written by some people

then its not so easy

if we call the ram setu as pure imagination and the city of dwarka just a myth then its not easy

 

if one finds ganga nadi and calls it same as thames river or something then it is not easy

 

if one can say we are a bunch of chemicals thats all

then it is not easy

[Guest Melvin1]

After reading Srimad Bhagavatam 22 years ago, I find I`m no longer interested in reading the latest findings from medical and science books.

[Connie]

Jagannath has three persons. I feel a strong connection with one, some feeling for one, and I feel I don't know the other one.

 

I want to reject casuistry entirely. I accept casuistry, to some extent, however I do not accept hypocrisy, or lies, and so I have problems accepting anyone who (or any book) that propounds lies as virtue.

 

This is honest. That said, I am not pleased at limiting the dimensional charts of "vedic astrology" to 16 vargas, either, just to let you know something I feel about Parashara and Vyassa, father and son. I feel the Vyassa compilations of the vedas were editing the vedas. I don't like it. It seems to me, few sacred slokas made it through.

 

I will never have moksha, if I have to love Krishna. I believe Arjuna was not to kill. If he died on the battlefield, it would have been better for him, if he is not only a fictional character.

 

I do not accept dualism. I can only count to One.

 

I am not seeking moksha. I have been told vedic astrology shows I am living a moksha lifetime.

 

I do feel equanimity. I have aversions. I have likes and dislikes. I ask questions only because I am conditioned to ask questions for learning. I am sincere. I do want to know about moksha.

 

I do appreciate the comments here. This is a great forum.

 

People here care about spiritual life.

 

 

sambya, I once heard a Tibetan "physician" teach how to incarnate, as technique. Is that for "avatars".

[sambya]

 

sambya, I once heard a Tibetan "physician" teach how to incarnate, as technique. Is that for "avatars".

 

i dont think that one can be taught to incarnate . although there are some yoga -siddhis which enables an individual to attain some supernatural powers , reincarnation or rebirth is quite out of scope of such siddhis .

 

the kind of body that were going to take , the kind of behaviour or psycology that were going to exhibit , the kind of material pleasures that were going to get are all determined through our karmic book of accounts that is being computed and recomputed every second. you dont have any power to alter karmic law by any ordinary paranoramal powers. in fact everything we do , our very existence is the result of samskars or impressions aqquired in this or past lives . we cannot help but act in accordance with these samskars. no matter how hard a criminal tries he will retain his criminal traits that have been aqquired as past life samskars.

 

so our birth in this world is entirely governed by such material laws of nature like karma etc . but when god himself descends in a human form it is entirely different . an avatar is not forced to accept a body as a human . karmic laws does not determine his existence . he choses what he wishes to become . he volutarity descends to this earth . the infinite out of his infinite compassion and infinite love choses to finite itself . this is possible only because he is infinite. so an avataars descend is completely different from that of any ordinary mortal .

[ranjeetmore]

 

 

so our birth in this world is entirely governed by such material laws of nature like karma etc . but when god himself descends in a human form it is entirely different . an avatar is not forced to accept a body as a human . karmic laws does not determine his existence . he choses what he wishes to become . he volutarity descends to this earth .

 

Look whose taking about Avataras...

 

He who has no consiferation for Vedas and the Vedanta is talking about the Supreme Lord's descension.

 

You think you can percieve the Entire truth of an Avatara ??

 

the infinite out of his infinite compassion and infinite love choses to finite itself . this is possible only because he is infinite. so an avataars descend is completely different from that of any ordinary mortal .

 

Chooses to finite itself ???

 

You talk of God as Infinte Compassion and Infinite Love,So your saying that Nirguna Brahm is Love and Compassion and has desires to exhibit his pastimes ??

 

Just look at your paltry knowlegde.You have absolutely no sense and you are talking as some mahatma.Just keep your knowledge to yourself.

 

Sri KRsna Descends As HE IS into the material world.

 

Just support ONE of your statements by the sastric pramana.Don't just sit ther and expect us to accept your word for it.

[sambya]

 

He who has no consiferation for Vedas and the Vedanta is talking about the Supreme Lord's descension.

in case you are not aware with the facts it was vivekananda who made vadanta a hugely poular philosophy in 19th century . and im a follower of ramakrishna vivekananda thought . its not that vedanta was unimportant or unknown before , but it was vivekananda who brought out the vedanta of the sages and hermits living in caves to the common masses and made it the central doctrine of hindu thought . after his huge an unprecedented success in india and west alike there in no sect or movements that can possibly do without vedanta today.

 

 

 

You think you can percieve the Entire truth of an Avatara ??

no , no one can !!

 

 

You talk of God as Infinte Compassion and Infinite Love,So your saying that Nirguna Brahm is Love and Compassion and has desires to exhibit his pastimes ??

 

which illustrious soul taught you that brahman is without love and compassion ? i have the deepest love and respect for saguna brahman . infact more than nirguna brahman .

 

 

Just look at your paltry knowlegde.You have absolutely no sense and you are talking as some mahatma.Just keep your knowledge to yourself.

 

first analyze your own level of courtsey ! did i talk with you ? did i refer to you ? no !!! i was replying to a question by connie when you stormed in with a series of idiotic allegations !! stop being so nosy into other peoples matters!! werent you taught the basic manners as a child ?

 

 

Don't just sit ther and expect us to accept your word for it.

i dont do anything with a expectation as to what ranjeet will think !!! you are free to leave the thread if its topic does not suit to your beliefs ...

[ranjeetmore]

no no no...Don't try to avoid the the allegation by saying,"Vivekananda has popularized vedanta."

 

CAN YOU PROVIDE SASTRIC PROOF THAT "Nirguna Brahm takes the form of Finite to display 'pastimes' out of His 'love' and 'compassion'."

 

Seeing as how Shankaracharya has a no nonsense fact established,"Nirguna Brahm Cannot exhibit PASTIMES,LOVE and COMPASSION."

 

(And In bharatvarsa,sir,we accept one of the four doctrines on the vedanta for they are the only ones who actually match what's given in the vedanta,and not Narendra's who smoked pot and advised on eating meat)

 

your answer should be:

 

Yes OR No.

[primate]

 

no no no...Don't try to avoid the the allegation by saying,"Vivekananda has popularized vedanta."

 

CAN YOU PROVIDE SASTRIC PROOF THAT "Nirguna Brahm takes the form of Finite to display 'pastimes' out of His 'love' and 'compassion'."

 

Seeing as how Shankaracharya has a no nonsense fact established,"Nirguna Brahm Cannot exhibit PASTIMES,LOVE and COMPASSION."

 

(And In bharatvarsa,sir,we accept one of the four doctrines on the vedanta for they are the only ones who actually match what's given in the vedanta,and not Narendra's who smoked pot and advised on eating meat)

 

your answer should be:

 

Yes OR No.

As to the existence of sastric proof, my personal answer would be 'no'. However, I can provide some compelling computational evidence that might interest you..

[sant]

 

no no no...Don't try to avoid the the allegation by saying,"Vivekananda has popularized vedanta."

 

he was following ramakrishna who claims to be an avtar of vishnu

 

 

truth is swami vivekanada did popularize veda though through mayavad view

read about vivekananda he is a great soul

[ranjeetmore]

Sri Ramakrishna:

 

"He Who was Rama and Krisna is now in this body."

"I have seen God more clearly than i can see you."

 

"The 19 symptoms that are manifested during mahabhava have manifested in my body at once.It takes one whole lifetime for even one of these symptoms to manifest in another devotee."

"Did you tell him that I am an incarnation ? What did he say ?"

"You are vishnu(to vivekananda)"

"make him(vivekananda) a smoke"

 

Sri Gauranga :

"No no no !! I am just a miserly Jeevatma.Do not call me Vishnu !"

"Oh Lord Sri KRsna,kindly place me on your Feet."

"Oh Lord,I'm such a impure soul I have no attraction for your names."

"Oh Lord,treat me however You want.You can ignore me or send me to hell,because You are fuly independent."

 

 

This is the difference.I frankly have no knowledge about the position of Ramakrishna(avatar or not),but I'm sure about one thing : Sri Ramakrishna is Like Sri Shankaracharya and Bhagavan Buddha.

You should respect the Person(you never know !) but you should totally boycott their philosophies.

Often than not,mahatmas have their own reasons to act the way they do.

 

***

 

Primate,feel free to elaborate.