Humans and destiny.

[empy]

Dear fellow devotees,

 

I understand that humans are creation of the almighty, created for the sake of his pleasure, and he plays with humans, as we play with toys.

so, how can the humans be responsible for their actions, suffer consequences of their sins etc, when every thing is planned and controlled by god? or are we free, and not under his control?-Prasad.

[sant]

im not an expert in gita and not a great devotee

i can tell paste what gita as it is says

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 18.13

pañcaitāni mahā-bāho

kāraṇāninibodha me

sāńkhye kṛtānte proktāni

siddhayesarva-karmaṇām

SYNONYMS

pañca — five; etāni — these; mahā-bāho — O mighty-armed one; kāraṇāni — causes; nibodha — just understand; me — from Me; sāńkhye — in the Vedānta; kṛta-ante — in the conclusion; proktāni — said; siddhaye — for the perfection; sarva — of all; karmaṇām — activities.

TRANSLATION

O mighty-armed Arjuna, according to the Vedānta there are five causes for the accomplishment of all action. Now learn of these from Me.

PURPORT

A question may be raised that since any activity performed must have some reaction, how is it that the person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness does not suffer or enjoy the reactions of work? The Lord is citing Vedānta philosophy to show how this is possible. He says that there are five causes for all activities, and for success in all activity one should consider these five causes. Sāńkhya means the stalk of knowledge, and Vedānta is the final stalk of knowledge accepted by all leading ācāryas. Even Śańkara accepts Vedānta-sūtra as such. Therefore such authority should be consulted.

The ultimate control is invested in the Supersoul. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarvasya cāhaḿ hṛdisanniviṣṭaḥ. He is engaging everyone in certain activities by reminding him of his past actions. And Kṛṣṇa conscious acts done under His direction from within yield no reaction, either in this life or in the life after death.

[sant]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 18.14

adhiṣṭhānaḿtathākartā

karaṇaḿca pṛthag-vidham

vividhāś capṛthakceṣṭā

daivaḿ caivātra pañcamam

 

 

SYNONYMS

adhiṣṭhānam — the place; tathā — also; kartā — the worker; karaṇam — instruments; ca — and; pṛthak-vidham — of different kinds; vividhāḥ — various; ca — and; pṛthak — separate; ceṣṭāḥ — the endeavors; daivam — the Supreme; ca — also; eva — certainly; atra — here; pañcamam — the fifth.

 

 

TRANSLATION

The place of action [the body], the performer, the various senses, the many different kinds of endeavor, and ultimately the Supersoul — these are the five factors of action.

 

 

 

 

PURPORT

The word adhiṣṭhānam refers to the body. The soul within the body is acting to bring about the results of activity and is therefore known as kartā, "the doer." That the soul is the knower and the doer is stated in the śruti. Eṣahidraṣṭāsraṣṭā (PraśnaUpaniṣad4.9). It is also confirmed in the Vedānta-sūtra by the verses jño 'taeva (2.3.18) and kartā śāstrārthavattvāt (2.3.33). The instruments of action are the senses, and by the senses the soul acts in various ways. For each and every action there is a different endeavor. But all one's activities depend on the will of the Supersoul, who is seated within the heart as a friend. The Supreme Lord is the supercause. Under these circumstances, he who is acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness under the direction of the Supersoul situated within the heart is naturally not bound by any activity. Those in complete Kṛṣṇa consciousness are not ultimately responsible for their actions. Everything is dependent on the supreme will, the Supersoul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

[kaisersose]

 

Dear fellow devotees,

 

I understand that humans are creation of the almighty, created for the sake of his pleasure, and he plays with humans, as we play with toys.

so, how can the humans be responsible for their actions, suffer consequences of their sins etc, when every thing is planned and controlled by god? or are we free, and not under his control?-Prasad.

 

I fail to understand how anyone with even a modicum of intelligence would accept that the events on planet earth are due to a God's pleasure. If it is true, then this almighty is worse than the sickest mind that one can possibly perceive.

 

If I believed in the almighty, I would most certainly never say he is having fun at the expense of human emotion. Anything else is serious "Aparadha" and I am not kidding.

 

My position is that there is no freewill - irrespective of the existence of an almighty being. There is only the apparent effect of freewill, which is the cause of most problems.

 

Cheers

[Narasingh]

 

Dear fellow devotees,

 

I understand that humans are creation of the almighty, created for the sake of his pleasure, and he plays with humans, as we play with toys.

so, how can the humans be responsible for their actions, suffer consequences of their sins etc, when every thing is planned and controlled by god? or are we free, and not under his control?-Prasad.

 

With some slight adjustment to your question I think you can harmonize it nicely.

 

Jivas (regardless of those in human bodies or otherwise) are a by-product of the pleasure of the Almighty, not necessarily created for His pleasure. The nature of the Jiva is similar to the Almighty, albiet to a smaller degree. There has often been used an analogy of a bonfire and a small spark of combustion. While it is only an analogy, incapable of giving the whole gist, it still serves as an idea for our constitution. As close as the small spark is to the bonfire, it has the same characteristics, ie. it produces warmth and effulgence, as though one with the fire, but when it is removed from the fire it lacks these features.

 

Your question presupposes that the Almighty created us to sin and suffer for His amuzement. First, however, we should try to clarify what the nature of sin and suffering is.

 

Our sin and suffering has its roots in the attempt to leave the influence of the fire and its radiance to try to set up our own individual radiance apart from the fire. In other words, to try to act as the Almighty and usurp His role for ours.

 

The Bhagavad Gita suggests that we have the right, constitutionally, to perform action, however, the Almighty, is the producer of the results of action. Where suffering comes into play is when the result is not to our satisfaction and we become depressed, jealous, or envious at seeing other Jivas obtaining results of their action to their liking.

 

When one sees the hand of God in the fruits of their undertaking, one has the choice to either be resentful or thankful for what they get.

 

We are only responsible for our actions which remove us from the radiance and warmth of the Almighty. Our responsibility is to our self in this regard, in that we can only meet suffering at the end of these actions, in that they aren't related to the Almighty. They are an attempt at disassociation from the Almighty.

[thehat]

 

With some slight adjustment to your question I think you can harmonize it nicely.

 

Jivas (regardless of those in human bodies or otherwise) are a by-product of the pleasure of the Almighty, not necessarily created for His pleasure. The nature of the Jiva is similar to the Almighty, albiet to a smaller degree. There has often been used an analogy of a bonfire and a small spark of combustion. While it is only an analogy, incapable of giving the whole gist, it still serves as an idea for our constitution. As close as the small spark is to the bonfire, it has the same characteristics, ie. it produces warmth and effulgence, as though one with the fire, but when it is removed from the fire it lacks these features.

 

Your question presupposes that the Almighty created us to sin and suffer for His amuzement. First, however, we should try to clarify what the nature of sin and suffering is.

 

Our sin and suffering has its roots in the attempt to leave the influence of the fire and its radiance to try to set up our own individual radiance apart from the fire. In other words, to try to act as the Almighty and usurp His role for ours.

 

The Bhagavad Gita suggests that we have the right, constitutionally, to perform action, however, the Almighty, is the producer of the results of action. Where suffering comes into play is when the result is not to our satisfaction and we become depressed, jealous, or envious at seeing other Jivas obtaining results of their action to their liking.

 

When one sees the hand of God in the fruits of their undertaking, one has the choice to either be resentful or thankful for what they get.

 

We are only responsible for our actions which remove us from the radiance and warmth of the Almighty. Our responsibility is to our self in this regard, in that we can only meet suffering at the end of these actions, in that they aren't related to the Almighty. They are an attempt at disassociation from the Almighty.

 

This is very nicely written

[empy]

Thank you Narasingh,Sant, and Kaisersose. Actually I am a novice to spiritual discussions. It is only out of curiosity, I became Member. Now I realise that this forum is as good as a Satsang.

 

Now back to the topic.

" Bhumi, Aapo, Analo, vayu, kham, mano, buddhi, Evaca, ahaamkaram, itiyam me bhinna prakriti, ashtadha"- Bhagavad gita.

meaning that all the five elements like earth, water,fire,air, space, intellect, Mind and Ego are my creation,said the Loard.

 

If that be the case,our Ego, mind and intellect, being created by God, does he not own the responsibilty to mend the thing? Doesn't he want to rectify Every one of us, and let us tread the path of righteousness?

 

When a machine is bought, the Mechanic or the manufacturer gives a warranty, and, we get the repairs and rectifications the moment we spot some fault in them. Similarly, why not God try, and rectify all of us, instead of letting us suffer our faults? - Prasad.

[Narasingh]

In as much as we want Him to take responsibility, He says He will. In Bhagavad Gita 9.22 He emphasizes this. The question is, do we truly want Him to take responsibility?

 

Of course, God is the creator, and everything that exists is part of Him. This includes the Jiva. The elements you mentioned above are elements which are provided by Him so we can enact our endeavors as being separate from Him.

 

If you quote from the Gita, don't neglect to include the references towards the permanence of the soul. Our sufferings are caused by the identification with material elements; such as earth, water, fire, air etc... and the sensual receptors which correspond with such elements.

 

As the saying goes, "If you love someone, set them free. If they love you, they will return." This is our relationship with God...

 

God has created the Jiva and endowed it with free will. Because of this endowment, He will not take away our free will. It is up to us, how we use this free will, and therefore it is not His responsibility...untill we offer our free will unto Him...

[Narasingh]

There is a beautiful prayer by Vidyapati which illustrates this sentiment:

 

 

Shri Vidyapati

madhava, bahuta minati kari taya

dei tulasi tila, deha samarpinu,

daya jani na chadabi moya (1)

O Madhava, with this offering of a tulasi leaf and sesame seeds, I beseech You and

pledge my body in Your service. I know Your compassion is such that You will not

reject me.

ganaite dosha, gunalesha na paobi,

jaba tuhu karabi vicara

tuhu jagannatha, jagate kahaosi,

jaga-bahira nahi mui chara (2)

While considering this appeal, You will only be able to count my faults. You will not

find even a trace of good qualities in me. You are known throughout the creation as

Jagannatha. Therefore do I, a worthless soul living within this universe, not have the

right to accept You as my master?

kiye manusha pashu-pakhi je janamiye,

athava kita-patange

karama vipake, gatagati punah punah,

mati rahu tuwa parasange (3)

Birth after birth, as a result of my karma, I repeatedly come and go, sometimes as a

human, sometimes as an animal and sometimes as a bird, worm or insect. But in

whatever birth I take, may my mind always remain fixed on Your narrations.

bhanaye vidyapati, atishaya katara,

taraite iha bhava-sindhu

tuwa pada-pallava, kari avalambana,

tila eka deha dina-bandhu (4)

With great remorse, the poet Vidyapati humbly prays, “O Madhava, O friend of the

fallen, please give this insignificant person shelter at the tender leaf of Your lotus feet.

In this way I may cross over this ocean of material existence.”

[empy]

Thank you Narasingh,

 

now I almost feel like" nashta moha, smruti labhda" Ignorance gone, knowledge gained.

_Prasad.

[Narasingh]

 

Thank you Narasingh,

 

now I almost feel like" nashta moha, smruti labhda" Ignorance gone, knowledge gained.

_Prasad.

I almost feel the same way There is still so much more I can learn, realize, and do

 

I have only offered what I feel is true in my heart. As you can see, there are others who feel otherwise, particularly in respect to free will.

 

I understand that the jiva is elemental. It is what it is, in much the same way that gold is gold and iron is iron. Each has its own unique attributes and there is no malice in the creation of either one. If one could try to be the other, it would be out of character.

 

Our suffering is much like this. Suffering is simply being out of character. Sin is action which brings us out of character. That is all.

[Guest krsnah]

Yes, humans are under Krishna`s control but He can be controlled, too.

--------

[empy]

Dear krsnah,

 

welcome to this discussion.

 

I fail to understand how God can be controlled too.

will you please elucidate?

 

-Prasad.

[jeffster]

Hello Prasad,

I was waiting for Krsnah to answer, but we haven't heard from him yet. The answer is here:

 

www.prabhupadaconnect.com/Deities86.html

 

jeffster/AMd

[empy]

The lord said" manmanaa bhava, madbhaktaa, madyaaji, ...." the lord likes those who love him, serve his devotees.... etc...... is that what is being referred to in the above web page?

-Prasad.

[gHari]

 

Dear krsnah,

 

welcome to this discussion.

 

I fail to understand how God can be controlled too.

will you please elucidate?

 

-Prasad.

 

Krsna can be purchased with love. He feels so indebted to the jiva-soul who truly loves Him that He feels He can never repay that gift He is offered.

 

Mother Yashoda can tie Him up and scold Him. He drives Arjuna's chariot. His friends wrestle with Him and climb on His shoulders.

[AncientMariner]

Can't proove but even in the material world I think Krsna is pretty much playing with his devotees but the atheists, material scientists etc. are pretty much just playing with themselves.

[kaisersose]

 

Can't proove but even in the material world I think Krsna is pretty much playing with his devotees but the atheists, material scientists etc. are pretty much just playing with themselves.

 

Just out of curiosity, who does "etc" include?

 

I ask because the majority of the world's population are neither Krishna devotees nor atheists nor material scientists*.

 

* No idea what material scientist means.

 

Cheers

[AncientMariner]

 

Just out of curiosity, who does "etc" include?

 

I ask because the majority of the world's population are neither Krishna devotees nor atheists nor material scientists*.

 

* No idea what material scientist means.

 

Cheers

 

 

Basically etc. includes anyone who doesn't believe the universe is run by a supreme being. Just my view of the universe. Who knows for sure what the hell is going on but I have had personal experiences that lead me to believe Krishna is real but you are entitled to your own personal view of things I don't begrudge you that.

 

Yes in the Kali-yuga my understanding is that basically the whole human population are basically just animals incarnated in the human form. A royal edition of the animals as Prabhupada said. I guess Krishna sends down his avatars to try and talk some sense into these animals and turn them toward the spiritual world.

 

Prabhupada always made fun of the material scientists because although they can play with the material energy and throw up a satellite into outerspace or something their power is insignificant to Krishna and they are great fools if they become puffed up by thier insignificant power.

[empy]

Wonderful! mariner.

The discussion is taking a very interesting turn.

Instead of using complex jargon, let us say theists ant atheists.

And among theists krishna devotees in particular. Rt?

-Prasad

[kaisersose]

 

Basically etc. includes anyone who doesn't believe the universe is run by a supreme being. Just my view of the universe. Who knows for sure what the hell is going on but I have had personal experiences that lead me to believe Krishna is real but you are entitled to your own personal view of things I don't begrudge you that.

 

As long as we are clear that this view is purely subjective, I have no problems at all.

 

 

Prabhupada always made fun of the material scientists because although they can play with the material energy and throw up a satellite into outerspace or something their power is insignificant to Krishna and they are great fools if they become puffed up by thier insignificant power.

 

My curiosity is piqued - again.

 

Do you actually know any "material scientist" who is puffed up with his "insignificant" power? I do not know anyone.

 

Scientists are in most cases employees of Labs and Universities drawing middle class salaries and working in teams. It is most certainly not an environment where any one can get puffed up - no more than say an architect feeling a sense of pride in designing a highrise or a philantrophist feeling gratified that his charity is responsible for saving lives of starving kids, who would have most certainly died otherwise or a surgeon whose work saved a life.

 

 

A very conducive environment for vanity is for political leaders, surgeons, judges, serial killers, etc., who have a certain control over life & death. I fail to see the scientist who may be trying to find a cure for Aids or a better quality fuel or to increase processing power of a chip to be added to this category and curiously enough as in this instance - singled out and criticized as "puffed up".

 

This is why I ask if you know of any puffed up scientists?

 

 

Cheers

[jeffster]

Kaiserose,

According to Prabhupad, any scientist, or anyone else for that matter, who does not surrender to the Personality of Godhead is considered puffed up. However, in the purport to Gita 7:15, Prabhupad includes scientists in the class of duskritinas called mayayapahrita-jnana. I quote the purport:

"(3) The next class of duskrtina is called mayayapahrta-jnana, or those persons whose erudite knowledge has been nullified by the influence of illusory material energy. They are mostly very learned fellows-great philosophers, poets, literati, scientists, etc. - but the illusory energy misguides them, and therefore they disobey the Supreme Lord."

 

I think that your point is well taken that in general scientists are mostly regular middle class folk who aren't particularly puffed up. But again, any of us who don't surrender are considered puffed up, according to Prabhupad's standard. And I feel that Prabhupad was hinting that since scientists in general are working only to enhance life within the material misconception, that that alone classifies them as puffed up. Rather than finding a cure for aids, humanity should observe either vows of celibacy or get married and stay with one partner, thus vastly reducing the possibility of contracting aids. But modern scientists consider that view old-fashioned, and do not believe in curbing sense gratification. Therefore, they consider themselves heroes by attempting to find a cure for aids. Better quality fuel will simply allow humanity to continue running on four wheels, as a dog runs on four legs, unaware of his higher purpose. And it is debatable whether or not computers are aiding humanity in becoming better humans. If used in forums such as this, or on Facebook or YouTube for preaching purposes, in essence the maha-brhat-mrdranga, I feel that we can see the real value of the computer, dovetailed in service to the Divine. Elsewhere, I am not so sure that the computer helps or just confuses people with endless streams of information and self-gratificatory pap on sites such as Twitter. I am sure I will stir the hornet's nest with these comments !!

jeffster/AMd

[bhaktajan]

Yes, jeffster you are correct regarding 'surrender'.

 

If after all that has happened in history --and if a sincere soul has studied the human condition birth after birth and then finally is exposed to Krishna's Person --and then still does not surrender to the personal concept of Godhead as 'hidden' through history --is due to puffed-up-ness.

 

Mind you, being puffed-up (egotistical) is a petty/small-minded thing.

 

Cats (dogs too) seem aware of their 'pretty-ness'.

A cat demonstrates that they care not a fig for an onlookers' demands.

 

Animal run from fear and attack out of fear and they sense fear and so they strut their stuff.

 

A dog knows his agility is beyond the humans' --and the dog knows that he is subserviant.

 

The human experience and human history (is there other types of history?)

are shared and gone through along with other persons . . .

 

so, I've always wondered that if societally homogenous people grow-up together and then DIE together --do they more-or-less travel in the same 'samsara-circles' --IOW, will souls end up in the next births as groups [due to similarity of the fruits of their acts]?

[primate]

 

...

so, I've always wondered that if societally homogenous people grow-up together and then DIE together --do they more-or-less travel in the same 'samsara-circles' --IOW, will souls end up in the next births as groups [due to similarity of the fruits of their acts]?

I would say, this depends on the element (or factor) of 'time'. We might not all die together and then reincarnate together. There may be a specific per soul reincarnation order or sequence or rhythm, which will separate us in time in our next material births..

[Guest Melvin1]

 

I would say, this depends on the element (or factor) of 'time'. We might not all die together and then reincarnate together. There may be a specific per soul reincarnation order or sequence or rhythm, which will separate us in time in our next material births..

 

In our past lives, we did this thing ( posting and replying) before. It took weeks for our letters to reach the destination. If my memory is right, I used to call you king kong because of your preference for young beautiful blonde ladies.