Humans and destiny.

[jeffster]

Prahlad, hello:

Yes, what your quoting in post # 15 is similar, although not identical, to the quote in the web page in post # 14.

Bhaktajan, hello:

Yes, Prabhupad said that animals have false pride, also. We can practically see that by observing them. I have seen animals so puffed up that they wouldn't even acknowledge my existence. Animals, per Jaiva Dharma, have "stunted consciousness," so they are basically ignorant. Ignorant means "to ignore."

 

Although somewhat speculative in nature, I also believe it is possible for certain souls to travel within the same "samsara-circles" over a long duration of time. That is why you sometimes immediately feel very close and familar with someone whom you've just met.

 

Re: scientists: Because many of them condone, or certainly do not condemn sinful activity, such as illicit sex, which can often result in aids, but only attempt to cure the end result of illicit connection, aids, they become condemned by their own actions to revolve in samsara.

 

Re: computers as enhanced communication tools for modern man: Tonight the wife and I walked 2-3 miles around our town to get some exercise and to gather some of the newly blossomed flowers for our altar. In my youth, a long time ago, a time before even television, we would, as children, play outside before dark. On our walk today we saw not even one child outside. They were all inside watching TV, texting, on the internet or doing homework or nonsense. No wonder that we have a country of physically lazy, overweight, unhealthy people. Of course sometimes I do see children outside playing, but it is rare, although gratifying to see some individuals attempting to make some connection with the natural world.

 

Along those same lines, we go to a cafe sometimes on a weekend evening. There we see a row of people, all on laptops, all absorbed in cyber land. None of them speak to or even look at each other, even though this would be the perfect scenario for human interaction. Sometimes, although there is even live music, some people will keep their face stuck in their notebook computer, deriving more satisfaction from a facsimile reality than the physical reality before them. I find this a sad commentary on an impersonal modern "civilisation."

 

 

jeffster/AMd

[jeffster]

Furthermore, regarding the scientists, mantra 9 of Sri Isopanishad describes their situation thus: "Those who engage in the culture of nescient activities shall enter into the darkest region of ignorance. Worse still are those engaged in the culture of so-called knowledge." Prabhupad did not comment on the scientists in the purport to this particular verse, but we can see that although scientists are certainly cultivating knowledge, it is knowledge of a temporary nature, based on sense perception, which may produce some material benefit, but no spiritual benefit, and therefore, according to the transcendental standard, that type of knowledge is of a mundane nature, of no ultimate importance, "so-called knowledge."

jeffster/AMd

[primate]

Hello Jeffster,

Knowledge is all we have! Even religious convictions are based on knowledge, derived from religious scriptures or personal experience. I don’t see how material scientific knowledge is any different from religious knowledge. And any attempt to combine these two types of knowledge, may advance our understanding of reality as it is. And then there is philosophy, the precursor of both scientific - and religious knowledge. How can there be answers if we don’t ask (philosophical) questions? Science is all about asking questions and methods of producing verifiable or reproducible answers. Asking about God is also science. And Prabhupada himself coined the term "science of self-realisation", in order to advance Krishna consciousness within the scientific community..

[jeffster]

Hello Primate,

Certainly both religion and science are based on knowledge. But science deals with the relative knowledge of the relative world and does not take the soul beyond samsara, whereas spiritual science, or the "science of self-realisation" deals with absolutes and will hopefully lead us beyond samsara to the plane of the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna.

 

jeffster/AMd

[primate]

This aversion to science, which seems to be common among Gaudiya Vashnavas, is based on the idea that studying observable phenomena in the material world (the primary object of science) is a form of ignorance and/or material involvement, that will keep practitioners of science from God realisation. And, of course, some statements of Prabhupada are not particularly helpful when it comes to understanding science as it is and to appreciate the value of the scientific method.

 

After all, scientific knowledge of the material world is the only knowledge we have that is verifiably true. All other knowledge is, with all respect, just speculation. The ultimate goal of science is to understand reality including human consciousness. And I believe that our manifest world is a real conscious phenomenon, albeit illusory, which somehow must reflect reality. We do not imagine or make up this world. So, what if this 'relative' scientific method some day delivers verifiable or testable evidence for God’s existence? Wouldn’t that contribute to general God consciousness..?

[Narasingh]

An issue at hand is that the science of matter is touted as the only verifiable science, as primate highlighted. The science of spirit is often considered unverifiable.

 

The motivations of material science must be scrutinized. Motivation falls under the science of spirit.

[Guest Melvin1]

Material scientists are guided by the Paramatma, so there`s no reason why Gaudiya sampradaya advocates won`t accept this very important scientific discovery say, the Chaos theory. These scientists even were able to secure this knowledge of spaceships which can travel from one world to another, in fact, did exist known by them as vamanas.

[jeffster]

All energies, be they spiritual or material, are emanations from Krishna, (Sri Isopanisad, invocation verse) differing only in their excellence. Material knowledge is different from spiritual knowledge because it pertains only to the gross material elements such as earth, water, fire, air and either or the various permutations of these, or to the subtle material elements such as mind, intelligence and false ego. That is where material knowledge ends, by natural limitation, but where spiritual knowledge begins. Philosophy can pertain to either material or spiritual topics, but real philosophy should concern the self, God and the relationship between the two.

 

Prabhupad and Vaishnavas in general are certainly not against material science. However, science ultimately only pertains to relative value, not absolute value, and we are seeking absolute value (spiritual, eternal value) and finding it in the Absolute Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna. However, it was Prabhupad's idea to have the lame man (India), poor in material advancement but rich spiritually, combine forces with the blind man (USA), relatively paltry in spiritual knowledge but advanced materially (partially through scientific advancement). Prabhupad used modern equipment, for his time, such as the dictaphone, knowing that the highest value of anything was in service to Krishna, because everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is owned and controlled by the Lord. (Sri Ishopanishad, mantra 1). The dictaphone was no doubt designed by a scientifically-minded engineer. (Actually, as a footnote, Prabhupad once commented that that particular engineer never conceived that his dictaphone could be used in Krishna's service.)

 

Primate's statement in post # 30 that "scientific knowledge of the material world is the only knowledge we have that is verifiably true" is not correct. Vedic knowledge included not only spiritual knowledge but material knowledge as well, such as jyotish, ayurveda, architecture and other sciences. We simply need to accept this knowledge, sruti (?), I believe it is called, from authoritative sources.

 

Yes, the manifest world is only a shadow reflection of reality. The "relative scientific method" can never deliver "verifiable or testable evidence for God's existence" simply because God is not subject to verification by relative methodology. God is transcendental to such methodology but He can be validated through a system of checks and balances called shastra, sadhu and guru and He is known ultimately by direct perception of the self through realization. Self-realization and God realization go hand in hand. Material science, such as quantam physics, can only begin to hint that there are realms or planes of existence beyond those perceived through our direct senses or enhanced senses (telescopes, microscopes).

 

Also, let us not forget that so-called scientific conclusions must, by nature, be fallacious, because scientists are beset with 4 mundane defects: 1.) they make mistakes, 2.) they have imperfect senses, 3) they have a tendency to cheat, 4.) they are illusioned. Why bother with scientific grasping in the dark when simply by hearing from shastra, sadhu, and guru and chanting the sublime maha-mantra you can cut through all the lower perceptual strata, namely sensual, mental and intellectual and experience direct divine communion with Krishna for yourself ?

 

jeffster/ AMd

[melvin]

Who discovered electricity? Who invented the incandescent bulb? Who invented the telephone? Who invented the electron microscope? Who invented the nuclear submarines? Who invented the internet? Who invented your personal computers and cell phones? Who invented the airplane? Who invented the movies? Who invented the microwave oven? Who first discovered the miracle drug penicillin? Who invented the X-ray machines and CAT scan? Who discovered gun powder? Who invented the first car? They were all scientists, right?

 

Whenever you use the computer or light a bulb, drive a car, ride on an airplane, take an antibiotic, cook food in the microwave oven, watch television or a movie, at least we owe it to them for being able to create and discover these wonderful innovations that benefited mankind for the past decades. Yes, we know that man can live on trees and use his arm as pillow. If Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu were alive I believe he would be driving a modest car or use the internet simply for practical reasons.

[jeffster]

Hi Melvin,

I acknowledge that Krishna is the intelligence in man, and that modern scientific man has made wondrous things such as aircraft that fly in the sky, something that only yogis of previous eras could have done. All I am suggesting is that all these things should be used in Krishna's service; otherwise they are simply distractions for distracted people in a distracted world.

Regards, jeffster/AMd

[sant]

 

Who discovered electricity? Who invented the incandescent bulb? Who invented the telephone? Who invented the electron microscope? Who invented the nuclear submarines? Who invented the internet? Who invented your personal computers and cell phones? Who invented the airplane? Who invented the movies? Who invented the microwave oven? Who first discovered the miracle drug penicillin? Who invented the X-ray machines and CAT scan? Who discovered gun powder? Who invented the first car? They were all scientists, right?

 

Whenever you use the computer or light a bulb, drive a car, ride on an airplane, take an antibiotic, cook food in the microwave oven, watch television or a movie, at least we owe it to them for being able to create and discover these wonderful innovations that benefited mankind for the past decades. Yes, we know that man can live on trees and use his arm as pillow. If Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu were alive I believe he would be driving a modest car or use the internet simply for practical reasons.

 

yes i agree science has given a lot no doubt.

But point of srila prabhupada is that people were not much happier now than they were 100 years ago without these thing.

Please understand this.

[primate]

 

All energies, be they spiritual or material, are emanations from Krishna, (Sri Isopanisad, invocation verse) differing only in their excellence. Material knowledge is different from spiritual knowledge because it pertains only to the gross material elements such as earth, water, fire, air and either or the various permutations of these, or to the subtle material elements such as mind, intelligence and false ego. That is where material knowledge ends, by natural limitation, but where spiritual knowledge begins. Philosophy can pertain to either material or spiritual topics, but real philosophy should concern the self, God and the relationship between the two.

 

Ultimately all knowledge is material. Knowledge exists as independent knowledge, only when it is memorized or written down or published on the internet, so that it can be communicated and be known through our (imperfect) material senses. All knowledge concerns the self, because we are the subject of knowledge or the knower. And all knowledge concerns God, because (philosophically) everything is God.

 

 

Primate's statement in post # 30 that "scientific knowledge of the material world is the only knowledge we have that is verifiably true" is not correct. Vedic knowledge included not only spiritual knowledge but material knowledge as well, such as jyotish, ayurveda, architecture and other sciences. We simply need to accept this knowledge, sruti (?), I believe it is called, from authoritative sources.

 

So this is material Vedic knowledge, which can be verified. Spiritual Vedic knowledge can’t be verified directly and must simply be accepted.

 

 

Yes, the manifest world is only a shadow reflection of reality. The "relative scientific method" can never deliver "verifiable or testable evidence for God's existence" simply because God is not subject to verification by relative methodology. God is transcendental to such methodology but He can be validated through a system of checks and balances called shastra, sadhu and guru and He is known ultimately by direct perception of the self through realization. Self-realization and God realization go hand in hand. Material science, such as quantam physics, can only begin to hint that there are realms or planes of existence beyond those perceived through our direct senses or enhanced senses (telescopes, microscopes).

 

Yes, the manifest world is only a shadow reflection of reality, but it is all we have. And there is absolutely no reason to assume that we cannot find scientific evidence for God’s existence by studying this material world. In fact, quantum physics indicates that there must be an underlying non-causal reality that produces our consciously perceived causal world. I agree that we will never be able to scientifically prove the existence of God. However, we may find compelling verifiable evidence that backs up Vedic spiritual knowledge as well as the claims of God realized individuals.

 

 

Also, let us not forget that so-called scientific conclusions must, by nature, be fallacious, because scientists are beset with 4 mundane defects: 1.) they make mistakes, 2.) they have imperfect senses, 3) they have a tendency to cheat, 4.) they are illusioned. Why bother with scientific grasping in the dark when simply by hearing from shastra, sadhu, and guru and chanting the sublime maha-mantra you can cut through all the lower perceptual strata, namely sensual, mental and intellectual and experience direct divine communion with Krishna for yourself ?

 

No. The scientific method assures that scientific knowledge is true, irrespective of human subjectivity or fallaciousness and imperfect human senses, simply because it can be verified by anyone through experiments or tests or logic. If knowledge can’t be verified, then it is not scientific. Such knowledge is ultimately just speculation and you cannot know for sure if it is true or just a hallucination.

[melvin]

 

yes i agree science has given a lot no doubt.

But point of srila prabhupada is that people were not much happier now than they were 100 years ago without these thing.

Please understand this.

 

Sant, a hundred years ago ( 1909 ),

 

1) When people got injured they died immediately of tetanus and sepsis because tetanus vaccines and antibiotics were not yet available for general use. Were they happy with that?

2) People mostly walked or rode only on horses.It took them days or weeks to reach their destinations because there were no airplanes yet or fast cars to carry them there. Were they happy with that?

3) When winter came, there was no electricity to heat their homes. Were they happy with that?

4) When the pandemic H flu came, millions died because there were no vaccines invented yet to eradicate the problem. Were they happy with that?

5) Because there were no movies, television and internet, the people`s main recreation was sex. Were they happy with that?

6) When war came, hundreds of thousands of people died in battle because they were not equipped with guided tomahawk missles. Were they happy with that?

7) People ate usually spoiled food because there were no refrigerators during that time. Were they happy with that?

8) When people wanted to know what`s happening to the world, it took weeks to know what`s going on in its remote parts because satellites and s were not yet invented. Were they happy with that?

9) When people got sick with cancer, they thought it was a curse because there were no modern laboratory tests yet to diagnose and cure the problem. Were they happy with that?

10) People were always afraid of going out with wads of money for fear of being robbed because there were no ATM cards and teller machines yet available. Were they happy with that?

 

I could go on and on citing the difference how people lived their lives between the past and the present. That the people are more happier now than when it was a hundred years ago.

[sant]

 

Sant, a hundred years ago ( 1909 ),

1) When people got injured they died immediately of tetanus and sepsis because tetanus vaccines and antibiotics were not yet available for general use. Were they happy with that?

 

are people not dyng of cardiac arrests now.

Heart attacks.Are they extinguished.

aids ?

 

2) People mostly walked or rode only on horses.It took them days or weeks to reach their destinations because there were no airplanes yet or fast cars to carry them there. Were they happy with that

 

Do you know now people travel more than they travelled 100 year ago.

 

thanks to modern travel vehicles pollution has has increased do you not know of that .or shall i tell you more about ozone depletion or global warming.Your scientists claim that because of this the cities near seas are going to drown.Or the irritating horns blown on the road are people happy with that.

Have you not ever watched captain planet on televison.or do you want to know about more hazrads.

 

 

3) When winter came, there was no electricity to heat their homes. Were they happy with that?

Do you know that in many places there is still no electricity.

ARE they unhappy or do do they use firewood for heating and warming purposes.

 

4) When the pandemic H flu came, millions died because there were no vaccines invented yet to eradicate the problem. Were they happy with that

AIDS- PEOPLE ARE STILL DYNG.ARE THEIR VACCINATIO0NS?

HOW ABOUT BIRD FLU OR MORE RECENT SWINE FLU.

HOW ABOUT SARS WAS THAT NOT CAUSED BY SCEINTISTS.

 

5) Because there were no movies, television and internet, the people`s main recreation was sex. Were they happy with that?

 

YOURE FUNNY

Sex is still main recreation.

televison internet porn are they not their promoting sex.

Do you think that tv was was the only entertainment factor.Was there no cricket or other games earlier.

 

6) When war came, hundreds of thousands of people died in battle because they were not equipped with guided tomahawk missles. Were they happy with that?

 

Funny again.

Do you know people are still going to die in war and more people thanks to modern warfare.

remember hiroshima or Nagasaki.Or nuclear warfare .

Thanks to your Tomahawk now you can just aim the missile WITH THE NUCLEAR BOMB making things more easier.Now you wont need to drop the bomb.

 

7) People ate usually spoiled food because there were no refrigerators during that time. Were they happy with that?

 

 

Surely if you are eating non vegetarian. Cause that is already not good food in my opinion.

Which place do you talk about.

In our country satwic food was there.people did not eat spoilt foods. I dont kno about yours

Have you heard about increased junk food.Does that come under spopilt food.

Well according to science it certainly spoils your health if you consume it as daily food.

Thanks to fast food Obestiy,cholestrol etc do you know how many diseases teenagers are suffering from an early age.Are they happy with that.

 

8) When people wanted to know what`s happening to the world, it took weeks to know what`s going on in its remote parts because satellites and s were not yet invented. Were they happy with that?

 

 

Have you not heard of danger to privacy due to people using video cameras.

Do you know about live sex videos or porn videos taken of people without them knowing by cameras. And then their spreading like water all over the internet.

Are they happy ?

 

 

9) When people got sick with cancer, they thought it was a curse because there were no modern laboratory tests yet to diagnose and cure the problem. Were they happy with that?

 

PEPOPLE are still dying of cancer. Do you know modern sceince has no cure for cancer except chemotherapy.Doctors still tell you im sorry when you have cancer.Do any of them get happiness.

 

 

10) People were always afraid of going out with wads of money for fear of being robbed because there were no ATM cards and teller machines yet available. Were they happy with that?

 

People still get robbed or have the robberies stoppped.

Dont you carry money in your pocket or do you use atm card to but a lollipop.Cant the robber rob your Atm card also.

Havent you heard about dangers of e commerce,people steling credit card information.Are they happy now?

 

surely you get more examples il make my point with them also.

But you dont understand my point.

Real happiness does not come with material things.Happiness depends upon you.Suppose you buy yourself a brand new million dollar watch you wanted.

Now youll be very happy now .

but what if your close relative breaks your watch. Now are you going to be happy.no youll be sad distressed.youll be cursing him.Even if he dosent youll be youll be worrying about how to keep the watch in good condition.

The watch brought happiness and sadness both.

 

But the truth is youve created happiness in and sadness in your own mind.

 

 

You get according to your own karma and gods wish.

 

 

Knowledge is important.

not about creating rockets but about your own life.

Do you understand.

 

 

this is a fact that youl have to learn.

people were more or less same 100 years ago.

You cannot get happiness from material wrold that is vedic philospphy.

I know Its hard but youl have to understand and experience.

people need to know that life is not just to satisfy senses.

[melvin]

Hundred years ago, there were no restrooms. So, the people in the 19th century moved their bowels just anywhere they can`t be seen. Were they happy with that?

Were there child and adult diapers a hundred years ago? Were they happy without that?

[sant]

 

Hundred years ago, there were no restrooms. So, the people in the 19th century moved their bowels just anywhere they can`t be seen. Were they happy with that?

Were there child and adult diapers a hundred years ago? Were they happy without that?

 

Was restroom created in a laborotary?

 

During that time people used kush grass.

It was good for the envirokment as it provided manure for the soil.

Besides they were not suffering from urgency as we do now because of learning self control.

There were substitutes for diapers. So i dont think there should be problem.

Also remember there was more greenery around.

 

 

And yes how about the fact that rivers are being polluted with canal and sewage.

Are you happy with that.

[sant]

You should understand happiness/easyness and sadnesss/distress both are coming.

[melvin]

 

You should understand happiness/easyness and sadnesss/distress both are coming.

 

As long as you have your material body, there will always be distress and sadness. The more they worsen when our material bodies become old. When memories are not sharp as they used to be ( when senility or alzheimer`s sets in). Can you be happy all the time when you have osteo or rheumatoid arthritis? Can you be happy if your eye sight is failing? Are you happy when you are deaf and can`t hear anymore the words, " I love you" when your wife says this to you? Material science is working hard to eradicate or minimize as much as possible these anxieties that go with age by looking for newer remedies. Can you be happy all the time when you have a headache or stomach ache? This is not an illusion. It`s a reality we to face in life.

[sant]

 

As long as you have your material body, there will always be distress and sadness.

it is due to your karmas.Dont you want to end this.

 

Can you be happy if your eye sight is failing

i agree

 

Are you happy when you are deaf and can`t hear anymore the words, " I love you" when your wife says this to you

atleast you dont have to hear i slept with someone else.

 

Material science is working hard to eradicate or minimize as much as possible these anxieties that go with age by looking for newer remedies

Have you heard of baba ramdevyoga, people getting cured of cancer, siddha healing ayurved.

 

Can you be happy all the time when you have a headache or stomach ache? This is not an illusion.

why will you.

It happens due to your own kama dont you understand.You are going to suffer irrespective of medicines.

you yourself have said it-

As long as you have your material body, there will always be distress and sadness.

you are misjudging me i am not against you creating material machines.do it get happiness with it.

but this is not he everlasting bliss which the ved talk about.

Shastras say that without expereincing brahm sukh you are not going to understand.

[melvin]

In this modern age, I`m simply happy to chant Hare Krsnah Hare Krsnah Krsnah Krsnah Hare Hare all the time. I don`t have to bother myself with bad karma because to quote from Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "... You can embrace me roughly or make me heartbroken by not seeing You. You can do anything You want for You will always be my worshipful Lord unconditionally."( Siksastaka verse 8 )

[sant]

 

In this modern age, I`m simply happy to chant Hare Krsnah Hare Krsna Krsnah Krsnah Hare Hare all the time. I don`t have to bother myself with bad karma because to quote from Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "... You can embrace me roughly or make me heartbroken by not seeing You. You can do anything You want for You will always be my worshipful Lord unconditionally."( Siksastaka verse 8 )

 

then why you talk foolishly

[chandu_69]

 

In this modern age, I`m simply happy to chant Hare Krsnah Hare Krsnah Krsnah Krsnah Hare Hare all the time. I don`t have to bother myself with bad karma

 

Then be happy and stay that way.We need not have to COUNT karma.Let the karmic system do it's job and let us get on with what we have.Simple....right?

[melvin]

 

Then be happy and stay that way.We need not have to COUNT karma.Let the karmic system do it's job and let us get on with what we have.Simple....right?

 

You`re absolutely correct, Chandu_69, my friend. It`s so simple, indeed.

[empy]

Dear friends,

 

It appears to me that we are drifting away from the topic on hand, and trying to prove our "one-up manship'. This forum is only to share our knowledge, and enlighten others if possible.

 

Coming to the topic, post no 38 by Melvin , in responce to sant, appears to be in bad taste.

 

Melvin asks "Were people happy hundred years ago? living without highspped transport, communications, Diapers, electricity, Medical facilities?"

 

Yes sir, the answer is YES.

 

Why are you talking about only hundred years back? why not say,a million years ?

 

Tretayuga was running. People had all the gadgets necessry for that time. no one died of untimely death except in war. Their Longivity was exceptionally higher. You can't stay comfortable in summer without AC. But You never heard of AC during that time, yet there were no sunstroke deaths!!

From wired technology, to wireless technology, to blue tooth -we are progressing gradually, repeat only gradually,and feeling happy that we are living better lives.

 

When the sun is not very hot, (No El Nino effect then) where was the need for ACs? When people lived as per dharma,why take precautions for Aids?

 

Assuming that the vedas were not written, but passed on to the next generations by word of mouth, without any change, don't you appreciate their IQ and their memory power then?

 

Hundred unborn/ under developed foetuses of Gandhari, being made to grow into full born normal babies- does it not speak of the 'outside the womb type pregnancy' and the Medical expertise available then?

 

Have you not heard of Pushpaka vimana, used by Lord Rama? have you not heard of travels by Lord hanuman to the sun? Have you not heard of Ravana making the planets stand still in a particular position at the time of indrajit/ Meghanadh's birth? That means he could control the speed of revolution of the planets in the Solar System. Is it not High-tech?

 

Drona's birth, as per Mahabharata- does it not remind you of a testtube baby?

 

People were happy those days sir!! They had all the comforts necessary for those days by the grace of God!!. We are only seeking his grace. Lets not belittle our fore fathers, and also belittle the ability of the almighty.

-Prasad.

[jeffster]

Hello all,

I'll try to keep this simple. What I was saying was simply this:

1.) Material science, by its very nature, does not extend to the plane of spirit.

2.) Nothing wrong with being comfortable, if one is also K.C.

3.) Modern science has given us many material comforts. In general, modern man has taken the goal of bodily comfort to be the goal of life in and of itself. Therefore modern amenities simply serve to entangle modern men in the illusion that they are this body. Therefore, modern amenities serve only as a distraction for the bulk of humanity.

4.) Even devotees can become bewildered by the apparent opulence of modern civilization (civilisation) and must guard against it.

 

Primate, although your arguments are intelligent, I find your premise flawed.

In post # 37, you say that "spiritual Vedic knowledge can't be verified directly and must simply be accepted." I'm not sure which verse I am referring to, and I will try to find it (Can someone help with this verse?) but to paraphrase, it states to the effect that the soul can be known through "direct perception of the self through realization (realisation)." Direct perception of the self through realization is NOT theoretical, it is verifiable.

Additionally, spiritual Vedic knowledge is verified by testimony of shastra, written by sages who have directly seen the truth, Krishna; by qualified gurus, uttama-adhikaris, who have directly seen the truth, Krishna; and by sadhus, some of whom have directly seen the truth, Krishna.

 

Actually, it is so-called scientific knowledge which is inconclusive, since scientists often change their conclusions when new evidence is presented. This proves that their knowledge is only partial, incomplete and relative.

 

From Primate's post # 37: " I agree that we will never be able to scientifically prove the existence of God. However, we may find compelling verifiable evidence that backs up Vedic spiritual knowledge as well as the claims of God realized individuals." Yes, this would be good if science would corroborate the truths that have been known to the sages for aeons.

 

 

jeffster/AMd