Integral monism is the answer...

[hing]

 

i will have to disagree here. while having a direct experience with God does make bhakti easier (it should anyway) it is not a prerequisite for true bhakti practice. We have always known God. Our souls know God therefore bhakti can spring up with out having conscious experience of him. Also our success in spiritual endeavors is solely dependant on the kindness of God.

 

Plus it seems a little exclussionary. I tried meditation for years and didn't get a thing out of it. I sing kirtan with devotees and eat prasadam and can feel love in my heart (all be it an imperfect and tiny kind of love) so how can meditation be needed first?

 

i agree with what you said about refining senses and emotions etc.

 

Hari Om!

 

OK, nice expirience! I don´t wanna argue with this.

 

I don´t know which meditation you tried but normally if you are doing some pranayama, you should be calming your mind down, like it says in yoga sutra:"yogas citta vritti nirodha", "The aim of Yoga is the intentional stopping of the spontaneous fluctuations of consciousness".

When you don`t have "fluctuations"(thinking), you steel have consciousness, it is not nothing, how come you are still aware if there is nothing to be aware of? Consciousness is mystery for modern sience, they don`t even try to solve it.

 

In order to be effective, prayers should be executed out of this calm state of awareness because this state is more close to God.

If I pray god of ocean to show up, I can wait for thousand years, but if Lord Ram prays, he will come immediately.

Why only Brahmins sing vedas? Because they nervous systems are more pure, they don´t eat meat and so on..

 

If a person lives in the city, where you don´t hear the singing of the birds,don´t see the dawn, but just work in a factory and watch tv, your nervous systems is continuously directed outwards. Of what use is a prayer of this person to Jesus?

But if you live with nature as a part of some indigenous tribe, than of course your prayers to rain and so on have an effect.

[hing]

 

I didn't say that I didn't understand it, I said I wasn't impressed. Don't be so egotistical that you think anyone who doesn't agree with you cannot understand you. There is your weakness. Perhaps your whole new-age 'behind religion' gimmick is just an attempt to feel better than others?

 

I also don´t like new-age guys who just simplify and dilute eternal thruts for the sake of ego or profit, but there is also another movement in the last century, the one of science.

This scientific logic is the great advantage we have today since the most of us lerned mathe in the school.

 

 

You write all these words, but they're all meaningless. You write about what cannot be written about, and so you're left with a page of meaningless symbols.

 

 

And why are than Vedas writing about it and why and whatabout are you philosophizing on this forum?

 

Why where you not impressed, maybe some explanation?

[ranjeetmore]

thanks melvin

[ranjeetmore]

 

No, God is Parabrahman, whilst jivatma is brahman. You can't deny that Jiva is Brahman, it's all over the Upanisads.

 

 

completely wrong.

 

Vedavyasa made a brahm sutra :

 

Na anuh atah shruteh hritichen na.

 

He states that the upanishads which talk about the eternal,Infinite,Supreme Paramatma is sometimes referred to as simply ' atma ' in the upanishads.

 

This doesn't mean that Jeevatma is Brahm or referred to as brahm in the upanishads..

[primate]

 

Huh?

You are not God, you are an integral part of God. Huh..? God is you..

 

It’s like grass is green, but green is not grass; or people are living, but living is not people; or A is the son of B, but B is not the son of A. Such propositions are called asymmetrical. Likewise, the proposition 'God is me', is not equivalent to 'I am God'.

 

Now, the proposition 'God is everything', is symmetrical, because the reverse proposition 'everything is God', is also true. However, you are not everything, therefore you are not God. But God logically remains you, because God is everything..

 

Next time, can you be a bit more specific please about what you do not understand?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 13.13

 

jneyam yat tat pravakshyami

 

yaj jnatvamritam asnute

 

anadi mat-param brahma

 

na sat tan nasad ucyate

 

SYNONYMS

 

jneyam -- the knowable; yat -- which; tat -- that; pravakshyami -- I shall now explain; yat -- which; jnatva -- knowing; amritam -- nectar; asnute -- one tastes; anadi -- beginningless; mat-param -- subordinate to Me; brahma -- spirit; na -- neither; sat -- cause; tat -- that; na -- nor; asat -- effect; ucyate -- is said to be.

 

TRANSLATION

 

I shall now explain the knowable, knowing which you will taste the eternal. Brahman, the spirit, beginningless and subordinate to Me, lies beyond the cause and effect of this material world.

 

PURPORT

 

The Lord has explained the field of activities and the knower of the field. He has also explained the process of knowing the knower of the field of activities. Now He begins to explain the knowable, first the soul and then the Supersoul. By knowledge of the knower, both the soul and the Supersoul, one can relish the nectar of life. As explained in the Second Chapter, the living entity is eternal. This is also confirmed here. There is no specific date at which the jiva was born. Nor can anyone trace out the history of the jivatma's manifestation from the Supreme Lord. Therefore it is beginningless. The Vedic literature confirms this: na jayate mriyate va vipascit (Katha Upanishad 1.2.18). The knower of the body is never born and never dies, and he is full of knowledge.

 

The Supreme Lord as the Supersoul is also stated in the Vedic literature (Svetasvatara Upanishad 6.16) to be pradhana-kshetrajna-patir gunesah, the chief knower of the body and the master of the three modes of material nature. In the smriti it is said, dasa-bhuto harer eva nanyasvaiva kadacana. The living entities are eternally in the service of the Supreme Lord. This is also confirmed by Lord Caitanya in His teachings. Therefore the description of Brahman mentioned in this verse is in relation to the individual soul, and when the word Brahman is applied to the living entity, it is to be understood that he is vijnana-brahma as opposed to ananda-brahma. Ananda-brahma is the Supreme Brahman Personality of Godhead.

[lokeshvara]

 

OK, nice expirience! I don´t wanna argue with this.

 

I don´t know which meditation you tried but normally if you are doing some pranayama, you should be calming your mind down, like it says in yoga sutra:"yogas citta vritti nirodha", "The aim of Yoga is the intentional stopping of the spontaneous fluctuations of consciousness".

When you don`t have "fluctuations"(thinking), you steel have consciousness, it is not nothing, how come you are still aware if there is nothing to be aware of? Consciousness is mystery for modern sience, they don`t even try to solve it.

 

In order to be effective, prayers should be executed out of this calm state of awareness because this state is more close to God.

If I pray god of ocean to show up, I can wait for thousand years, but if Lord Ram prays, he will come immediately.

Why only Brahmins sing vedas? Because they nervous systems are more pure, they don´t eat meat and so on..

 

If a person lives in the city, where you don´t hear the singing of the birds,don´t see the dawn, but just work in a factory and watch tv, your nervous systems is continuously directed outwards. Of what use is a prayer of this person to Jesus?

But if you live with nature as a part of some indigenous tribe, than of course your prayers to rain and so on have an effect.

 

im not saying meditation isn't good and i'm not saying it won't progress you along the path but i am saying it is not a requirement for bhakti.

 

also the ocean god is going to answer Rama faster than me because Rama is God not because he did some pranayama.

 

how exactly is a brahmin's nervous system more pure? also are you referring to someone who is born brahmin or someone who actually takes on the characteristics of what a brahmin should be. i ask because i know brahmins who drink and eat meat, who have received the sacred thread but do not maintain their sacred obligations. i find it hard to believe that such a person is purer than a vaisya who oesn't eat meat or drink and engages in spiritual activities every day.

 

I fail to see how someone's prayers have less of a chance of being answered based on where they live. of course the prayer for rain may be answered quicker than, for example, the prayer for a new car as one is need for survival and the other isn't.

 

Bhakti can not spring up in the devotee's heart without it being God's desire.And God does what he wants. It's called causeless mercy.

 

Hari Om!

[Haridasdasdas]

 

I also don´t like new-age guys who just simplify and dilute eternal thruts for the sake of ego or profit, but there is also another movement in the last century, the one of science.

This scientific logic is the great advantage we have today since the most of us lerned mathe in the school.

 

 

 

 

And why are than Vedas writing about it and why and whatabout are you philosophizing on this forum?

 

Why where you not impressed, maybe some explanation?

 

It's one thing to say this or that about minor points and scriptural explanations, but to make laudible claims like you have is a whole different thing. You think Bhakti can onyl occur under this or that condition. What do you know? There are Christians with Bhakti, Muslims with Bhakti etc etc.

 

They may not understand who is the personal God, but they have that love. What you are saying is basically that there is no such thing as the religious experience of others. This is ridiculous.

 

Deepak Chopra is a new age guy who dilutes things for profit. We don't need his shit on here.

[melvin]

 

Huh?

 

Huh? means huh, wow. It`s a phrase said by Varg Vikernes at the begining of the song " War". It`s now used to express something is ...huh...wow...

 

Prison Guard: They decided to extend your sentence, you`ll be here for 5 more years.

Varg: This is huh, wow...

 

Teacher: If you don`t get an A on this test, you`ll have to repeat the grade.

Student: This is huh, wow...

[gHari]

I AM GOD.

 

So stop saying that you're Me, you envious little twerps. It's so insulting!

[hing]

 

 

how exactly is a brahmin's nervous system more pure? also are you referring to someone who is born brahmin or someone who actually takes on the characteristics of what a brahmin should be. i ask because i know brahmins who drink and eat meat, who have received the sacred thread but do not maintain their sacred obligations. i find it hard to believe that such a person is purer than a vaisya who oesn't eat meat or drink and engages in spiritual activities every day.

 

 

Born brahmin is more pure, because there is genetical aspect to consider. Brahmins where always chanting vedas, this job is purifying.

But if brahmin eats meat or drinks this is polluting him, than I don't know how clean he is.

Indian mind is more used of meditation than western, it is in the blood, consciousness.

 

 

I fail to see how someone's prayers have less of a chance of being answered based on where they live. of course the prayer for rain may be answered quicker than, for example, the prayer for a new car as one is need for survival and the other isn't.

 

 

 

Because nature is god, and people living in accordance with nature are closer to god.

[hing]

 

It's one thing to say this or that about minor points and scriptural explanations, but to make laudible claims like you have is a whole different thing. You think Bhakti can onyl occur under this or that condition. What do you know? There are Christians with Bhakti, Muslims with Bhakti etc etc.

 

They may not understand who is the personal God, but they have that love. What you are saying is basically that there is no such thing as the religious experience of others. This is ridiculous.

 

You can not understand scriptures well, if you never went in to yourself. How can you than reach and know God?

 

 

Deepak Chopra is a new age guy who dilutes things for profit. We don't need his shit on here.

 

Chopra is new age, but as long he was with maharishi he was not "diluting" and this short talk is OK.

May a just add that my gurus guru was a Shankara of Jyotir Math

[lokeshvara]

 

Born brahmin is more pure, because there is genetical aspect to consider. Brahmins where always chanting vedas, this job is purifying.

But if brahmin eats meat or drinks this is polluting him, than I don't know how clean he is.

Indian mind is more used of meditation than western, it is in the blood, consciousness.

 

 

 

 

Because nature is god, and people living in accordance with nature are closer to god.

 

That's a pretty racist statement sir. Just because you're Indian in this life does not mean you were Indian in a past life and just because someone is western in this life does not mean they weren't Indian in their previous lives. Show me exactly where between the red and white cells and platelets there is an extra something for meditation or show me it is on a DNA chart. Have you not heard of the number of western mystics? Those who are more apt to meditation are those who have the karma for it regardless of ethnic ties.

 

As for your comments about nature and God. Nature is not God, don't confuse the material with the spiritual. Nature has a connection with God but it is not God. Also to assume that someone's prayers in the forest are going to be answered quicker than someone in the city is assuming an awful lot.

 

God's causeless mercy is extended to whoever he wants regardless of geographic location, race, or caste.

 

Hari Om!

[hing]

 

That's a pretty racist statement sir. Just because you're Indian in this life does not mean you were Indian in a past life and just because someone is western in this life does not mean they weren't Indian in their previous lives. Show me exactly where between the red and white cells and platelets there is an extra something for meditation or show me it is on a DNA chart. Have you not heard of the number of western mystics? Those who are more apt to meditation are those who have the karma for it regardless of ethnic ties.

 

 

Well I personally am not an Indian and I don't know maybe I was some Indian or at least an animal in India or tribal person in former life.

I think that you are wrong about number of western mystics, who exactly do you think of?

You are made of bodies of your father and mother. Why are Eskimos able to eat so much animal fat and have perfect cardiovascular system.

 

 

As for your comments about nature and God. Nature is not God, don't confuse the material with the spiritual. Nature has a connection with God but it is not God. Also to assume that someone's prayers in the forest are going to be answered quicker than someone in the city is assuming an awful lot.

 

God's causeless mercy is extended to whoever he wants regardless of geographic location, race, or caste.

 

Hari Om!

 

 

Why do you think that in Indian tradition, acetics since immemorial times went to forest to meditate and set there their ashrams.

It is stated in vedas that forest is a place of gods whereas a village a place of man. For instance: it is not allowed in yajna to offer a wild animal but only domestic because they belong to gods.

 

 

I think you are an romantic idealist like christians are. But to reach god it is not enough just to wish it, you must search for him also and have a good karma.

 

Hari Om!

[lokeshvara]

 

Well I personally am not an Indian and I don't know maybe I was some Indian or at least an animal in India or tribal person in former life.

I think that you are wrong about number of western mystics, who exactly do you think of?

You are made of bodies of your father and mother. Why are Eskimos able to eat so much animal fat and have perfect cardiovascular system

.

 

your logic is flawed here. eskimos are abile to eat the fat because genetically they had to adapt in order to survive the harsh climate. it's the same reason why when i work in varanasi i see lower rates of cholera and typhoid infections in those who grew up around the ganges as opposed to foriegners who come into contact. the immunity is is passed down generationally. the talent for meditation is not. and until you can show me where exactly the chemical sequence on dna for meditation is you are the one who is the romantic idealist. you can not even make an argument for it culturally because there is no one unified indian culture. more so then that how about the meditation techniques of the east asian buddhists that have been develped completely outside of india, or the european kabbalists, or the turkish sufis, etc. no one culture has a monopoly on meditation. what makes someone good or bad at it is their karma, dedication, and guru.

 

 

 

 

 

Why do you think that in Indian tradition, acetics since immemorial times went to forest to meditate and set there their ashrams.

It is stated in vedas that forest is a place of gods whereas a village a place of man. For instance: it is not allowed in yajna to offer a wild animal but only domestic because they belong to gods.

 

 

I think you are an romantic idealist like christians are. But to reach god it is not enough just to wish it, you must search for him also and have a good karma.

 

Hari Om]

 

um actually the ascetics went to the forest because they were actively renouncing ordinary life not because God is less accessible in the town. they were turning their backs on normal social obligations and the way to do that is to move out. if your ideas were true then pujas and yajnas performed today would be valueless if done in an urban environment. God is reachable anywhere.

 

for the record, i never said that all it took was to wish it. have you ever tried to develop bhakti? it is not easy and it can only be done through the mercy of God. by your logic Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, Meerabai, and Srila Prabhupada (to name a few) were all british romanticist. well at least i have some good ocmpany.

 

Hari Om!

[Haridasdasdas]

 

You can not understand scriptures well, if you never went in to yourself. How can you than reach and know God?

 

 

 

Chopra is new age, but as long he was with maharishi he was not "diluting" and this short talk is OK.

May a just add that my gurus guru was a Shankara of Jyotir Math

Righht, because Maharishi never diluted anything? Really?! Not at first he didn't, but then nobody was interested when he tried to spread religion, so he changed it to a 'meditation technique' and told everyone the mantras had no meaning. Om Sri Ram? I'd like to think that has a meaning, am I wrong?

 

TM is a watered down westernised version of Advaita Vedanta. I'm not a follower of Sri Adi Sankara, so maybe you and others can help me out here, but how often did He talk about 'Yogic hopping'? In fact how many 'TM meditators' can even name Adi Sankara? I don't know much about your Jyotir Math, but I imagine it is a proper establishment of Advaita Vedanta, and not some hodgepodge.

 

Oh hey, Chopra has his own 'method' now right? Primordial sound meditation, where your mantra is 'goooaaaa' or something equally crazy.

 

In response to your first point, that is your own experience, not any kind of universal truth, so come off it.

 

Edit: I think you may have a point on what you said to Lokeshwara, about Indians being more suited to meditation and dharma. Not to say only they can practise, maybe he misunderstands you.

[lokeshvara]

 

 

Edit: I think you may have a point on what you said to Lokeshwara, about Indians being more suited to meditation and dharma. Not to say only they can practise, maybe he misunderstands you.[/quote

 

He didn't say anything about Dharma, to which I would agree that being of Indian birth is more useful. But in terms of meditation, let me pose this and you can tell me who you think has a better shot at meditation abilities: the westerner who has spent half his or her life in an ashram or monastery or the indian who heads a multinational coorperation and hasn't meditated one day in his or her life?

 

btw i'm a girl

[hing]

lokeshvara,

 

Dharma is your nation, mother tongue and your caste(physical body as well as upbringing). This things you just cannot change in this lifetime.

There are a plenty of lady monks in TM organisation, and it is great for them what they are doing, but real reason for this is that they have good financial karma to pay their stay there.

 

But TMO is also financing 10000 brahmin boys from poor families allover the India to meditate and worship their deities:

 

 

 

 

Righht, because Maharishi never diluted anything? Really?! Not at first he didn't, but then nobody was interested when he tried to spread religion, so he changed it to a 'meditation technique' and told everyone the mantras had no meaning. Om Sri Ram? I'd like to think that has a meaning, am I wrong?

 

You can think it in both ways, because gods are laws of nature according to maharishi's understanding, and this laws are in your body to. So if you meditate upon "Om Sri Ram" you actually just healing you self and bringing in accordance with your own nature.

It is just a different point of view that you don't have because you don't have the knowlege of vedanta.

 

 

TM is a watered down westernised version of Advaita Vedanta. I'm not a follower of Sri Adi Sankara, so maybe you and others can help me out here, but how often did He talk about 'Yogic hopping'?

 

What I know TM is maybe most related to Kashmir Shaivism, it has both vedanta an bhakti.

There is a text called Yoga sutras and one shaivism text called shiva samhita where hopping and other efects are exactly described. http://www.outercol.org/pdf/SHIVA.pdf "41. In the second stage, there takes place the trembling of the body; in the third, the jumping about

like a frog; and when the practise becomes greater, the adept walks in the air."

 

Now there are some words from our dear Guru Deva:"People debate many concepts related to bhakti and jnana. Some argue that devotion is superior, and some that knowledge is. Only those who don't know the true meaning of bhakti and jnana feel this way, seeing devotion and knowledge to be opposed, and are willing to fight over it. It has been said that to know Paramatma is jnana, and, having known Him, to worship Him is bhakti. If you don't know Him, then how can you worship Him? You see, it is very clear that without knowledge, bhakti is not possible. Neither those who are against jnana and in favour of the bhakti, nor those who favour jnana but oppose bhakti, are aware of their own spiritual blindness. How can one trust the testimony of the blind? We can only trust the words of someone who can see."

[AncientMariner]

 

We should therefore blast the whole world with chanting of the holy names of God: " Hare Krsnah Hare Krsnah Krsnah Krsnah Hare Hare/ Hare Ramah Hare Ramah Ramah Ramah Hare Hare ". The time is NOW, not tomorrow.

 

 

Part of the problem is the public perception of the Hare Krishnas is that their gurus are child molestors and conmen, the Hare Krishnas don't even have as much credibility with the public as the Catholic Church. Plus the Hare Krishnas are also so involved in infighting similar to other religions that the Hare Krishna Movement doesn't come off as being transcendental as advertised. In America I wouldn't even be surprised that if you went around telling everyone to chant Hare Krishna that they would arrest you and charge you with terrorism.

 

I only chant and read Vedic literature for my own peace of mind and do not try to force it on anyone. Maybe someday another acarya will appear that has come credibility with the public as Prabhupada seemed to have briefly in the 60's but I don't know if that would even work because the public is so mentally ill from television etc. that I don't know what you could do. It would take a massive paradigm shift to wake people up. I am not convinced your strategy would work at this point in time but I wish you the best with it and one can always hope.

[Haridasdasdas]

 

 

Fair point but where is the meditation in European cultural history? How many Spaniards, English etc can not even sit cross legged?

 

Sorry for saying 'he'.

[Haridasdasdas]

 

You can think it in both ways, because gods are laws of nature according to maharishi's understanding, and this laws are in your body to. So if you meditate upon "Om Sri Ram" you actually just healing you self and bringing in accordance with your own nature.

It is just a different point of view that you don't have because you don't have the knowlege of vedanta.

 

 

 

The problem with you lot is you think Advaita is so complicated and that nobody who disagrees with you can understand it. That's just false ego.

[Haridasdasdas]

 

Now there are some words from our dear Guru Deva:"People debate many concepts related to bhakti and jnana. Some argue that devotion is superior, and some that knowledge is. Only those who don't know the true meaning of bhakti and jnana feel this way, seeing devotion and knowledge to be opposed, and are willing to fight over it. It has been said that to know Paramatma is jnana, and, having known Him, to worship Him is bhakti. If you don't know Him, then how can you worship Him? You see, it is very clear that without knowledge, bhakti is not possible. Neither those who are against jnana and in favour of the bhakti, nor those who favour jnana but oppose bhakti, are aware of their own spiritual blindness. How can one trust the testimony of the blind? We can only trust the words of someone who can see."

Lord Caitanya taught that a person should chant the names of Krishna in Japa and Kirtan, and study the Bhagavatam and Gita. That was enough to make Haridas Thakur into a Bhakta, and so many others. Haridas Thakur was a Muslim who probably grew up eating cows, yet he became a great saint, so that's the power of Harinam, he wasn't interested in any Jnana.

 

So maybe you can finally realise that what you are saying responds to your Advaita method of Sadhana, and not to other people.

 

Muslims, Christians don't have any vedic mantras, meditation, deity worship, etc but still they have real bhakti sometimes.