Siddha-pranali

[Kulapavana]

Atmavan manyat jagat - you think the entire world is just like the one you create in your own mind.

 

You are surrounded by evil miscreants: sahajiyas, mayavadis, aparadhis, sunyavadis but they can all be saved if they only adopt your patented method of salvation, which nobody but your sect posesses, of course.

 

At the same time you pride yourself in being non-sectarian and a universalist... and all those who point out contradictions in your message are envious snakes or fools... especially so if they come from a closely related sect.

[gHari]

So many think it's all about knowing this or that, studying, winning debates, yadda-yadda, but their monstrous egos keep them licking the outside of the honey bottle admiring their own reflections. The real deal comes from Krsna and it is not earned but is granted. The acaryas knew our weaknesses, our insincerity and egos. When we're ready to know our eternal identity, we will know it. God ain't no fool. The least our egos need now is to think ourselves exalted gopis.

[shiva]

There are some misconceptions about siddha-pranali on this thread. It was never supposed to be about revealing someones actual siddha-deha. It's supposed to be about creating a mental siddha-deha to aid in meditation. Raganuga sadhana is about cultivating the mood of one of the nitya-siddha parishads from nitya Krishna lila. One way to do that was that a guru would tell a disciple to imagine himself or herself as a specific nitya-siddha parishad according to his or her natural inclination. Maybe that conception was changed by some people into a process where a guru reveals to the disciple his or her actual siddha-deha. Or maybe there is just some misunderstanding of who is doing what. I don't know because I have never met anyone who claims to be able to reveal your actual siddha-deha, has anyone here?

 

Bhaktivinoda speaks something about this in his Dasa Mula Tattva:

 

 

Up until now, vaidhi bhakti has been discussed. Now we will discuss raganuga sadhana bhakti.

 

 

 

ishthe svarasiki ragah param avishtata bhavet

 

tan mayi ya bhaved bhaktih satra ragatmikodita

 

 

Raga or attachment means intense and natural absorption in the object of love. When devotion to Krishna has this quality it is called ragatmika bhakti.

 

B.R.S. Purva Vibhaga 104

 

 

 

The practice of following this mood of ragatmika bhakti is called raganuga bhakti. Just as bhakti which follows the rules of scripture is called vaidhi bhakti, so that bhakti which follows after ragatmika bhakti is called raganuga bhakti. Neither of these is the goal or perfection; both are sadhana or practice. Ragatmika bhakti has two types: kamanuga and sambandhanuga.

 

 

 

The ragatmika bhakti of the inhabitants of Vraja and Mathura is well known. Those who are eager to attain the mood of those devotees are qualified for raganuga sadhana bhakti. Just as the qualification for vaidhi bhakti is faith in scripture, so the qualification for raganuga bhakti is a greed to attain the mood of the ragatmika devotees.

 

 

 

tat tad bhavadi-madhurya-shrute dhir yad apekshate

 

natra shastram na yuktim ca tal lobhotpatti lakshanam

 

krishnam smaran janam casya preshtham nija- samihitam

 

tat tat katha ratish casau kuryad vasam vraje sada

 

seva sadhaka-rupena siddha-rupena catra hi

 

tad bhava lipsuna karya vraja-lokanusaratah

 

 

 

Scripture and logic are not the symptoms of greed for the Lord. When the mind eagerly awaits absorption in the mood of love on hearing sweetness of the particular moods it is called pure greed. The method of practice is this: to relish topics of Krishna's pastimes while remembering Krishna and ones chosen Vraja devotee, to live in Vraja constantly, and to serve Krishna in ones body or chosen spiritual body, through service similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja with a greed for the mood of ones chosen ideal.

 

B.R.S. Purva Vibhaga 118, 150-151

 

 

 

Among the angas of bhakti mentioned in vaidhi bhakti such as kirtana , those which are favorable for his service are accepted by the practitioner of raganuga. Those aspiring for dasya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Patraka and other servants; those desirous of sakhya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Subala and other friends; those desirous of parental rasa copy the mood and gestures of Yashoda and other elders; and those desirous of madhura rasa copy the mood, service and gestures of the Vraja gopis.

 

 

 

There are two types of ragatmika bhakti: by kama and sambandha. Similarly there are two types of raganuga bhakti: kamanuga and sambandhanuga. Of the two, kamanuga is stronger and more prominent. In kamanuga there are also two divisions: sambhogeccha mayi and tad bhavecchamayi. In the first, the devotee of Krishna is inclined to give pleasure to Krishna; in the latter the devotee relishes the sweet relation between Radha and Krishna. That bhakti in which one indentifies with devotees of Krisna who have conventional relationships with Krishna is called sambandhanuga. In Dvaraka the queens' love is madhura rasa based on sambandha. In Vraja, only kamanuga madhura rasa exists.

 

 

 

Lord Chaitanya taught that the tendencies of the jiva suddenly manifest through the raganuga process. Lord Chaitanya has approved of worship in the raga mode (raga marga). If a soul by good fortune gets association with devotees who have the mercy of Gauranga, he will certainly become greedy for the mood of the Vraja vasis. But as long as he does not have such association, he must practice vaidhi bhakti. Just on taking shelter of the lotus feet of Gauranga he enters the path of raga. Those eager for the path of spontaneous attraction first practice raganuga bhakti. In practicing raganuga bhakti the person quickily develops an extremely high qualification. On attaining greed for the mood of the Vraja vasis, no other attraction remains. When that greed arises, the practitioner immediately becomes completely disinterested in sinful action, piety, social duty, neglect of duty, forbidden actions, speculation, and dry renunciation.

 

 

 

adau shraddha tatah sadhu-sango'tha bhajana kriya

 

tato' nartha nivrittih syat tato nishtha rucis tatah

 

athashaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati

 

sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

 

 

First Sraddha or faith, next Sadhu-sanga or association with saints, after that Bhajana-kriya or spiritual practices, next to it is Anartha-nivrtti, i.e. cessation of all offenses or obstacles, next to it is Nistha or firmness, which is followed by Ruci or taste, next is Asakti or attachment, after this is Bhava, and then appears Prema. These are the different stages for the appearance of Prema in the heart of a person who undergoes spiritual practices.

 

B.R.S. Purva Vibhaga, Prema bhakti lahiri,11

 

 

 

In the vaidhi bhakti process following this gradually method, attainment of bhava takes a long time. However, if greed for the mood of the Vraja vasis develops, the material desires are quickly destroyed, since no other desires have a place. Along with greed for Krishna simultaneously arises bhava.

 

 

 

On the path of raga, however, it is necessary to avoid imitation or deception. If that occurs, it produces disturbance and obstacles, though the person may think that his corrupted raga is real raga. Finally, material association turns that raga into material attraction and causes falldown of the jiva.

 

 

 

The devotee of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, after having developed real greed, practices raganuga bhakti. Following the same rules as vaidhi bhakti, the devotee takes shelter of genuine guru, serves the deity, takes Vaishnava association, studies the devotional literature, lives in a place of the Lord's pastimes, and chants the Lord's name. Along with this, the devotee serves Krishna in an intense mood of love in his spiritual body (siddha deha), following the sentiments of the Vraja vasis.

 

(...)

 

 

For practice of both types of bhakti, the bona fide guru is necessary. The guru engages the candidate of vaidhi bhakti according to his inclinations. He teaches what rules to observe and how to eliminate the obstacles. The guru shows the candidate of raganuga bhakti how to cultivate suitable rasa corresponding to the disciple's natural taste.

 

There are two types of taste of greed: temporary and natural. Sometimes devotees hear about the qualities of Nanda or Subala, derive great bliss and sometimes show similar sentiments, but this bliss and the show of sentiments are short-lived. This is called temporary greed. There is no use in such a show. It is necessary for the guru to carefully examine which rasa -dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhura-gives natural greed. Detecting ones natural sentiment, the guru will give teachings according to that mood. If this is not done, then the instructed mood will not be permanent, due to the unsuitability to the disciple. It should be noted that not all seekers will be qualified for madhura rasa. If a guru finds it impossible for him to decide the rasa of the disciple, he will honestly admit his inability to the disciple and direct him to approach a suitable guru. The disciple has no alternative but to take shelter of the lotus feet of the bona fide guru.

 

 

 

For fear of enlarging the book, I have made a summary study of sadhana bhakti. Those who have desire to know more about this can study the Purva Vibhaga of Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu and the Bhakti Sandarbha.

 

If you don't have access to a qualified guru that doesn't mean you are out of luck and can't take up the above process. You can still practice the above process with the aid of the writings of gurus who write on the topic and with aid from caitya-guru and other vaishnavas.

[Sonic Yogi]

Srila Prabhupada makes it simple without a lot of complicated references to this and to that.

 

 

It is said by Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī, "When one is actually liberated from material contamination, he can always remember an eternal devotee in Vṛndāvana in order to love Kṛṣṇa in the same capacity. And developing such an aptitude, one will always live in Vṛndāvana, even within his mind." The purport is that if it is possible one should go and physically be present at Vrajabhūmi, Vṛndāvana, and be engaged always in the service of the Lord, following the devotees in Vraja-dhāma, the spiritual realm of Vraja. If it is not possible, however, to be physically present at Vṛndāvana, one can meditate anywhere upon living in that situation. Wherever he may be, one must always think about life in Vraja-dhāma and about following in the footsteps of a particular devotee in the service of the Lord.

 

A devotee who is actually advanced in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, who is constantly engaged in devotional service, should not manifest himself, even though he has attained perfection. The idea is that he should always continue to act as a neophyte devotee as long as his material body is there. Activities in devotional service under regulative principles must be followed even by the pure devotee. But when he realizes his actual position in relationship with the Lord, he can, along with the discharging of regulative service, think within himself of the Lord, under the guidance of a particular associate of the Lord, and develop his transcendental sentiments in following that associate.

 

In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-praṇālī. The siddha-praṇālī process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-praṇālī process is followed by the prākṛta-sahajiyā, a pseudosect of so-called Vaiṣṇavas. In the opinion of Rūpa Gosvāmī, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service.

This is the long and the short of it.

We hear about Krishna lila from the proper shastric sources and find a parshada that becomes our role model.

We always think about that role model and the role model's service in the lila of Krishna.

The siddha pranali process teaches one to think of himself as a particular eternal associate of Krishna rather than thinking of the parshada role model one has chosen out of his own inclination.

 

That is the difference.

In siddha pranali you are imaging yourself to be an associate of Krishna.

In the actual Rupanuga sampradaya one thinks of the parshada that one has the most affinity for and cherishes a desire to serve in that way.

 

Then, at the time of death the devotee is transferred to a universe where the pastimes of Krishna are being manifested and takes a birth that enables one to follow in the footsteps of the parshada that he always remembered and thought about.

[visnujana]

 

So if we aspire to follow Srila Prabhupada in his service to Krishna, there is no doubt that this is raganuga-bhakti.

Very nice sentiment. All of us who have even a little attachment to Srila Prabhupada are definitely very fortunate. If we stay loyal to the Vaisnava-sanga we will definitely achieve everything in spiritual life. However, why is there a need to 'prove' that every devotee ('we') who aspire to follow Srila Prabhupada is practicing 'raganuga-bhakti'? ..and if we do need to prove that, why can't we use the definitions of raganuga-bhakti or whatever else we need to prove.. that have already been given by our acariyas and Srila Prabhupada himself?

I readily agree that by serving such a pure Vaisnava as Srila Prabhupada everything can be given. However, if I can make 5 coins by working hard, it does not mean the work itself is 5 coins. Everything is scientifically defined in the scripture, no need to change anything.

If raganuga-bhakti is so easily available why did Srila Prabhupada and other acariyas like Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura go such a long way trying to explain to us in great detail about so many different stages and levels of misra-bhakti and suddha-bhakti?

Note: I say nothing about siddha-pranali here. This is about the particular use and interpretation of the word 'raganuga'. Raganuga-sadhana bhakti is definitely practiced in our line and is well described in our sastras. This is our main goal. However, since it has already been clearly described and there are many now-living practitioners of this, there seems to be no need to concoct anything new. If we want to practice that we just need to take help of the two main available resources. That is my understanding. Am I wrong?

[galaxy18]

It seems that Kulapavana prabhu knows more than Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada.There are many articles about this topic and Raganuga Bhakti on www.leagueofdevotees.com.better follow are acarayas than speculate.In these articles you can see even Bhaktivinode thakur criticize the so called siddha pranali process.

[galaxy18]

<cite></cite>sorry its

 

<cite>www.</cite><cite>leagueofdevotees.blogspot.com</cite><cite>

</cite>

[visnujana]

 

There are some misconceptions about siddha-pranali on this thread. It was never supposed to be about revealing someones actual siddha-deha. It's supposed to be about creating a mental siddha-deha to aid in meditation.

I agree with this. Having accumulated hips of nitya-sukriti and thus through genuine shraddha having come in the association of high-class vaisnavas a devotee begins to regularly hear from them. A genuine vaisnava-diksa has taken place around here also... Then by hearing and serving high-class devotees at some point the special mood that is constantly in the hearts of those devotees gradually enters the devotee's heart. While he still continues to listen to Hari-katha that little sentiment strengthens and gradually develops into a spontaneous attraction, the desire to have that very same mood that the sadhu relishes. Whenever, the devotee listens to some particular pastimes, the desire to be able to serve Radha-Krishna the same way spontaneously arises in his heart at that moment. Here it is important to know that bhava is not there yet. It is still far from that. So, the devotee can have no realization of his svarupa. But yet spontaneous attraction for the seva that certain Krishna's eternal associate render to Radha-Krishna will be there. This is not a material sentiment. This shows that the adhikara to begin raganuga-sadhana-bhakti is achieved. This is nicely described in Jaiva-Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, in Raga-VartmCandrika by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, off course by Srila Rupa Goswami in his Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and many other vaisnava scriptures.

Then on the path of raganuga-sadhana-bhakti the devotee will listen more to the devotees who have similar mood, he will read different pastimes of Krishna, but he will prefer those that correspond more to his mood, etc. This is simply because he will develop greed to have that same thing and thus he will naturally be attracted to what inspires and nurtures this mood in him. - This is all well documented in vaisnava screptures and is taught by living vaisnava acariyas when appropriate (to qualified candidates).

Siddha-pranali as a means to aid Hari-katha and other processes would seem to fit here nicely. Meaning that it could inspire and nurture the mood the devotee aspires for.

By no means I am saying it is a MUST, neither I am even saying that we will need to do something like that. I am aware that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada would say that everything will be revealed by Harinam. I believe that. However, I won't claim that siddha-pranali never exists in saraswata-line either.

Why would I? I simply don't know yet. I strongly believe that spiritual life in general and especially at those elevated stages is very personal. 'Harinama will reveal it' does not necessarily mean your guru won't tell you that, won't help you with that. Also the fact that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada would say ' they concocted siddha-pranaly' might easily mean that the cheap process of 'siddha-pranali' was concocted.

Once a very senior disciple of Srila Prabhupada who had been also receiving siksa from Srila Narayana Maharaja for many years asked him for siddha-pranali. Maharaja answered: "When this will be your only desire, I will give you that." .. He did not reject the idea, he said the disciple was not ready just then.

Anyway, we will see, I guess... or may be that someone around here has seen it already..

[Sonic Yogi]

 

In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-praṇālī. The siddha-praṇālī process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-praṇālī process is followed by the prākṛta-sahajiyā, a pseudosect of so-called Vaiṣṇavas. In the opinion of Rūpa Gosvāmī, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service.

 

In the above quote from NOD, Srila Prabhupada says clearly that the siddha-pranali process was "manufactured" by unauthorized men.

 

He also says that the siddha-pranali process is followed by "prakrita-sahajiyas".

He doesn't say that any authorized sect of Gaudiya Vaishnavas practice it.

 

He finishes his comment on siddha-pranali by saying that Srila Rupa Goswami considered such practice as a disturbance to the standard way of devotional service.

 

It appears from this that the siddha-pranali process was extant during the time Srilla Rupa Goswami wrote the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, as Srila Prabhupada states that Srila Rupa Goswami considered such practices as a disturbance to the standard ways of devotional service.

 

We see as well, that in the Saraswata Gaudiya sect the siddha-pranali process has distracted several ISKCON type devotees who have more or less created a disturbance on the internet especially with their preaching of the need for siddha-pranali for aspiring devotees.

 

Srila Prabhupada's position is clear.

He considered siddha-pranali a practice of the sahajiyas, he considered it to be something manufactured by unauthorized men and he considered it a disturbance to the standard way of devotional service.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja maintained the same opinion.

 

Narayan Maharaja seems to have some tendency towards siddha-pranali.

It must be something he picked-up during his stint with the babajis at Radha-kunda at which time some of the senior devotees in the Matha of Kesava Maharaja came to Radha-kunda and insisted that Narayana Maharaja return to the Matha of his Guru Maharaja.

 

Apparently, you can take the Swami away from the babajis but you can't take the babajis away from the Swami.

[visnujana]

Srila Prabhupada says here "In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-praṇālī." Again he is talking about the so-called process of siddha-pranali. I am no expert in English but I think the 'so-called' structure generally indicates that there is the real thing, although this particular instance (that is being discussed) is not it although it is called so...

Then Srila Prabhupada continues: "The siddha-praṇālī process is followed by.." i.e. he is talking about the same so-called manufactured process.

Being careful about something does not mean fighting against it, especially when in fact "I simply don't know". That's my take on this. What's the point of fighting anyway? Every action has some motive behind it, so what is it here? Is it just to prove that I am better or my group is better? Or is it that my spiritual life really depends on whether or not I win the fight? Srila Prabhupada does not say "fight", he says "be careful". Yeah.. I am talking to myself here. I can never understand the excessive popularity of such 'controversial' topics. Perhaps someone can explain this to me.

I think when (if) this will really matter to me I will simply ask an authority, someone who knows. I am not saying Srila Prabhupada does not know. I am saying there have always been fights on how to understand certain words of acariyas who have passed way. I think this is not necessary and is easily avoidable.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Srila Prabhupada says here "In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-praṇālī." Again he is talking about the so-called process of siddha-pranali. .

Look again.

Srila Prabhupada says:

 

The siddha-praṇālī process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service.

He doesn't say "so-called" in this sentence.

He says "the siddha-pranali process".

There is no so-called in this statement.

It is clear that he is referring to siddha-pranali.

There is no so-called process of siddha-pranali and any authentic process of siddha-pranali.

The siddha-pranali process is wholesale from it's inception an unauthorized process that cannot be traced to any instructions of Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Siddha-pranali is a perversion of some very intimate and exclusive dealings between Gopal Guru Goswami and some of his most intimate disciples.

 

Since then it has been transformed into a cheap dimestore imitation of something that a few rare discples of a nitya-siddha parshada of Mahaprabhu had with their siddha guru.

 

A few rare occurences of Gopal Guru Goswami revealing to some of his disciples their svarupa with Krishna has become a cheap, merchantile exchange between professional babajis and their foolsih followers.

 

What they call siddha-pranali today is a perverted and cheap imitation of something that a parshada of Mahaprabhu gave to a few rare disciples.

 

Now, it has become something you can purchase with a substantial monetary contribution to some babaji at Radha-kunda who needs chapatti and dahl money.

 

Madhavananda das bought himself a siddha-deha from Ananta das Babaji with a nice donation to the cause, but after a couple of years of lila-smaranam he was still miserable and clueless.

 

Now, he has rejected Gaudiya Vaishnavism and is living in Europe with a female companion doing his Krishna imitation.

 

We have a good example of how siddha-pranali is a dead-end street.

Just ask Madhavananda das if there is any magic in siddha-pranali and I am sure he will tell you quite definitively that there is NOT.

[visnujana]

Sonic Yogi, I am not arguing your good points. I only wanted to express my own outlook on things and I did that. If my personal opinion counts at all I also maintain an idea that there is no need... Yet, I am hoping to always have some room in my brain and heart to whatever I have not realized just yet.

 

I like to go to Radha-kunda whenever I have a chance. But I have only heard Hari-katha from Srila Narayana Maharaja and some of his followers while there. I have no reason to have any hostility towards the Babajis there. I want to respect and love all. But I am quite satisfied with what's naturally coming.

[Gadadhara dasa (rus)]

 

The term "siddha-pranali" is not found in any of the writings of Srila Rupa Goswami or any of the principle Gaudiya Goswamis.

Bhagavat shiksha parampara is not found either, anywhere at all until Siddhanta Saraswati.

 

 

The term siddha-pranali was manufactured by sahajiyas and is a cheap imitation of something beyond anything sahajiyas are capable of.

No, it was not manufactured by sahajiya school and never was a cheap imitation.

 

 

I don't care what Bhaktivinoda did.

What a nice illustration of the mentality of parampara of spiritual rejecters.

[Gadadhara dasa (rus)]

Bhaktivinoda initiated his younger son, Lalita Prasada into siddha pranali, but not his older son, Bhaktisiddhanta. Perhaps it was the difference in their devotional mood that dictated this course of action to Srila Bhaktivinoda.

So father rejected to give diksha to his son? What kind of mood could make a loving father to reject to give the most important thing to his own son?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

 

What a nice illustration of the mentality of parampara of spiritual rejecters.

So, basically what you are saying is that we should jump over the head of our Guru Maharaja and his Guru Maharaja and follow the father of the spiritual master's spiritual master.

Never mind what our immediate Guru has given for us, let us all jump back about three gurus and try to follow instructions that were never meant for us.

 

That makes a lot of sense.

Well, actually, it does not and is quite ridiculous.

 

The Gaudiya parampara has always been a siksha based parampara.

Mahaprabhu spread his Sankirtan movement all over South India and in fact had more success there than anywhere in India.

He didn't go around giving everyone formal diksha.

He conducted his Sankirtan and gave instructions as in the example of Kurma the brahmana who in turn went back to his village and spread the movement through Sankirtan and siksha.

It is said in Caitanya Caritamrita that the Sankirtan movement overflooded South India and many thousands of people took to the movement of Mahaprabhu. All these people were liberated and attained eternal life.

 

There is no descriptions of Mahaprabhu holding large initiation ceremonies.

There is no description of him giving formal diksha to anyone there.

Yet it is said that Mahaprabhu had the greatest success with his Sankirtan movement in South India.

 

The claim that the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu is based on formal initiations as opposed to Harinama Sankirtan is just wrong.

If formal diksha is the measure of success or the platform for Mahaprabhu's Sankirtan movement, then Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami was certainly wrong to say that Mahaprabhu was most successful in his movement in South India.

 

Krishna told Arjuna in the Bhagavad-gita that he was starting a new parampara with Arjuna as the previous parampara coming down through the Sun god had been broken.

Did he give Arjuna formal diksha or Gayatri mantra on the battlefield of Kurukshetra?

No, because Lord Krishna's idea of parampara is siksha based and that is why he gave Arjuna siksha on the battlefield of Kurukshetra instead of initiating him into some mantra.

 

If you accept Lord Krishna's instructions in Bhagavad-gita, then you must accept that his idea of parampara is siksha based.

 

Being a rejecter is not the problem.

The problem is when neophytes try to jump over the head of their immediate spiritual master and disobey him on the pretext of following some predecessor acharya.

[Kulapavana]

 

We have a good example of how siddha-pranali is a dead-end street.

Just ask Madhavananda das if there is any magic in siddha-pranali and I am sure he will tell you quite definitively that there is NOT.

 

Just ask all the fallen disciples of Srila Prabhupada (including dozens of his ex-sannyasa disciples) if there was any magic in what they got from their guru.

 

It is not magic that sustains your devotional life. Diksa, sannyasa, siddha-pranali are all tools which can be used in spiritual life, but ultimately it is up to us to make them useful.

 

Giving sannyasa to completely unqualified young men is every bit as 'sahajiya' as giving siddha-pranali to unprepared and unqualified disciples.

[Kulapavana]

 

So father rejected to give diksha to his son? What kind of mood could make a loving father to reject to give the most important thing to his own son?

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta accomplished many wonderful things in his life. Lord Krsna uses all of us in His plan according to our way of surrender.

 

We can only speculate as to why Bhaktivinoda did not give diksa to his older son, but ultimately it can be seen as part of Lord Krsna's plan. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta disliked his father's guru from the very beginning. Thus taking diksa from his father would have perhaps been awkward for him, as it would make Bipin Bihari his parama guru. Who knows...

[visnujana]

No, I don't think this has anything to do with Bipin Bihari. Didn't Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself direct Bhimal Prasad to Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji? That's the story I have always heard. Why he did so, I don't know.

[Kulapavana]

 

No, I don't think this has anything to do with Bipin Bihari. Didn't Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself direct Bhimal Prasad to Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji? That's the story I have always heard. Why he did so, I don't know.

 

IMO the story has a lot to do with Bipin Bihari, but I do not doubt that it was Bhaktivinoda who directed his son to Gaurakishora Babaji (Bhaktivinoda himself took babaji vesha from Gaurakisora three years later, in 1908). Perhaps it was meant to be a lesson.

[shiva]

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta accomplished many wonderful things in his life. Lord Krsna uses all of us in His plan according to our way of surrender.

 

We can only speculate as to why Bhaktivinoda did not give diksa to his older son, but ultimately it can be seen as part of Lord Krsna's plan. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta disliked his father's guru from the very beginning. Thus taking diksa from his father would have perhaps been awkward for him, as it would make Bipin Bihari his parama guru. Who knows...

 

 

For a large part of the gaudiya vaisnava society at that time the caste goswamis were predominant. Diksa guru had become a family caste based business; those families claimed hereditary rights (they still do today) as diksa gurus for the gaudiya sampradaya. Bhaktisiddhanta preached against the conception of hereditary gurus, so he didn't want to take diksa from his father because he would have been accused of hypocrisy.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

Giving sannyasa to completely unqualified young men is every bit as 'sahajiya' as giving siddha-pranali to unprepared and unqualified disciples.

 

Well at least we know where you stand now.

You say that Srila Prabhupada is a sahajiya because he tried to create some preachers and gave sannyasa to some men that let him down.

 

I would have to disagree, because Srila Prabhuapda's tactics did get Krishna consciousness spread all over the world and most of the sannyasis that fell down did a lot of good work before they jumped ship.

 

Siddha-pranali as a term or a process is not found in any of the teachings of Srila Rupa Goswami.

 

Wherever it came from, one thing we know is that it cannot claim to be Rupanuga.

 

Maybe we could call it Gopal Guru Goswaminuga?

 

Gopal Guru Swami was a sakhi not a manjari.

In the Rupanuga sampradaya the the leader of the group is a Manjari.

[Kulapavana]

 

For a large part of the gaudiya vaisnava society at that time the caste goswamis were predominant. Diksa guru had become a family caste based business; those families claimed hereditary rights (they still do today) as diksa gurus for the gaudiya sampradaya. Bhaktisiddhanta preached against the conception of hereditary gurus, so he didn't want to take diksa from his father because he would have been accused of hypocrisy.

 

That is one possible explanation. However, brahmanas always were the diksa gurus for society, and of course it was a hereditary 'business', as varnashrama tends to be.

 

It also needs to be mentioned that Bipin Bihari was not in one of those 'dreaded' hereditary parivars. He stepped outside his own family line to take diksa from a line going back to Lord Nityananda's wife.

[Kulapavana]

I will tell you a story closely related to siddha pranali.

 

One ex-Iskcon devotee came to an ashram of a Radha-kund baba famous for his high quality internal bhajana in the mood of the gopis. This devotee asked baba to give him siddha pranali and teach him asta-kaliya-bhajana. Baba engaged this devotee in every day chores, like getting water from the well, taking care of the cows, cooking on open fire, etc. After about a year this devotee started getting impatient and approached baba for 'more confidential instructions'. Baba got quite angry. He yelled at him: "You rascal! I got you engaged in all the daily activities of a gopi, and you want higher instructions?!" and chased him out of his ashram. Only then this devotee started to get a glimpse of what siddha pranali is about.

 

 

Anyway. I did not join this discussion to suggest that we should all get siddha pranali in a near future. I joined this discussion to show how myth-making hurts our spiritual life, and how we should first take a critical look at our own activities before we embark on a fault-finding mission to our very close relatives.

[Gadadhara dasa (rus)]

 

So, basically what you are saying is that we should jump over the head of our Guru Maharaja and his Guru Maharaja and follow the father of the spiritual master's spiritual master.

Oh, am I really? Yogiji you are basically wrong.

 

How would you follow Bhaktivinod? Take siddha-pranali diksha from him? But he is not available for that. Take initiation in a dream? A dream initiation is not fit for further distribution. Go outside? But you have to find a vaishnava-sadacar compliant way to have two Gurus - out of question for the time being. And your diksha Guru gave you specific instructions about that. To claim that I suggest any of these options is quite insulting, is another way of saying that I am stupid.

 

You argue that siddha-pranali is not found in Rupa Goswami - simply a claim to be purist follower of the father of sampradaya (IMO quite a poor trick, don't use it). But there are many things in Rupa Goswami that are not present in Siddhanta Saraswati's line. On the other hand, there exist things that are not mentioned in Rupa Goswami. I do not know how you explain that, but my explanation is that Siddhanta Saraswati is a founder of his own sampradaya. You had that shape of faith which allowed you to accept him and your Guru as acharyas. Fine! Whatever acharya says is satya for the one who accepted him as acharya. So rather than discredit siddha-pranali by making ridiculous statements that it's not in Rupa Goswami, you should be saying that siddha-pranali is not maintained in your line because the acharya chose to set it like this.

 

I suggest you read (sorry for that Dad) Dhanurdhara Svami's "Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and raganuga-sadhana-bhakti". An overal good draft to find reconciliation with the tradition (though I disagree with the Swamiji on his many statements in this article). You should give up the offensive attitude to "the rest" of the tradition. As Kulapavana has rightly pointed out, it hurts the spiritual life.

[Gadadhara dasa (rus)]

 

The Gaudiya parampara has always been a siksha based parampara.

Oh, pleeease! You have to find another head, you can't crap on mine. Why did "Brahma-Gaudia" sampradaya change siddhanta and upasana of the parental line? It did not seem to be shiksha-parampara from the beggining. And where do you find definition of term "shiksha-parampara" in Rupa Goswami? (since you are a rupanuga).

 

 

He conducted his Sankirtan and gave instructions as in the example of Kurma the brahmana who in turn went back to his village and spread the movement through Sankirtan and siksha.

Perhaps, Mahaprabhu respected the existing diksha? The brahmin already had his diksha in a hereditary line, why would Mahaprabhu be so ridiculous as to make him reject his previous Guru? This is rated as scandal in orthodox Gaudia vaishnava context. Rejecting Guru is scandal and a personal tragedy for a sadhaka.

 

 

There is no descriptions of Mahaprabhu holding large initiation ceremonies.

Have you heard of "do not accept too many disciples"? He gave a practical example of how this should be followed.

 

 

because Lord Krishna's idea of parampara is siksha based

What does Krishna have to do with this? Krishna was not a vaishnava. Krishna was a pashupata.

 

 

If you accept Lord Krishna's instructions in Bhagavad-gita, then you must accept that his idea of parampara is siksha based.

This is a matter of whose authority in which matters I accept. I love Krishna, but with regards to Gaudia-siddhanta I accept authority of Sri Rupa Goswamipada and other 5 Goswamis of Vrindavana, Krishnadas Kaviraja, Narottam das Thakurji, Gopal Guru Goswami and several other vaishnavas. As for Krishna, He is not my acharya, but Ishta-devata.

 

Proper Shiksha and proper Diksha should both be present. You simply cannot speak in "diksha vs shiksha" terms. You cannot oppose one another. This is not acceptable. This is not found in Rupa Goswami.