Why please a departed Vaisnava guru?

[rasa_prada]

Positions of different Vaisnava groups vary on the level or quality of omniscience in a departed Vaisnava guru. He may be “living still in sound” but to some he just “ain’t hangin’ around”. And indeed, the confusion is almost enough to make one wonder how many elements of the Vaisnava guru-sishya tradition some might want from the Shankarites. After all, Shankara was at least around before Madhva.

 

I don’t understand the idea of omniscience in an empowered jiva. How can one know everything without being present everywhere? And if you were running and playing with Krishna why would you want to? The Sankarites superimpose all the attributes of Iswara and Brahman on the guru. But the Vaisnava by his own admission never becomes an incarnation of God.

 

So the sishya is required to make offerings to his Vaisnava guru first, whether here or departed, so that the guru can then offer it to Krishna. Sri Krishna is described as the ultimate enjoyer, the supreme enjoyer and the only enjoyer. But I am considering that there is a crisis of power in the ability to sacrifice enjoyment for Krishna, and perhaps on both sides.

 

Say for example you enjoy the City of San Francisco. So you want to make a sacrifice and offer the entire city to your guru. You may not have the power to do this. You would have to go to Goloka after the entire city was transformed into cintamani and place it as an offering at the lotus feet of your guru. So in the meantime you are probably just going to end up enjoying your trip to San Francisco.

[sambya]

 

I don’t understand the idea of omniscience in an empowered jiva. How can one know everything without being present everywhere?

 

nice point !! unless you are omniscient how can you know everything ?

 

 

 

 

 

the way the modern advaitins percieve guru is --

 

the grace of god manifests directly through guru . he gives you the mantra to liberate you . so indirectly it can be said that god's will is working through guru . or god is appearing in form of guru . in this way guru is 'god himself' . also the advaita makes no distinction between the soul and the brahman and hence theoretically it is true that guru = god .

[suchandra]

 

Positions of different Vaisnava groups vary on the level or quality of omniscience in a departed Vaisnava guru. He may be “living still in sound” but to some he just “ain’t hangin’ around”. And indeed, the confusion is almost enough to make one wonder how many elements of the Vaisnava guru-sishya tradition some might want from the Shankarites. After all, Shankara was at least around before Madhva.

 

I don’t understand the idea of omniscience in an empowered jiva. How can one know everything without being present everywhere? And if you were running and playing with Krishna why would you want to? The Sankarites superimpose all the attributes of Iswara and Brahman on the guru. But the Vaisnava by his own admission never becomes an incarnation of God.

 

So the sishya is required to make offerings to his Vaisnava guru first, whether here or departed, so that the guru can then offer it to Krishna. Sri Krishna is described as the ultimate enjoyer, the supreme enjoyer and the only enjoyer. But I am considering that there is a crisis of power in the ability to sacrifice enjoyment for Krishna, and perhaps on both sides.

 

Say for example you enjoy the City of San Francisco. So you want to make a sacrifice and offer the entire city to your guru. You may not have the power to do this. You would have to go to Goloka after the entire city was transformed into cintamani and place it as an offering at the lotus feet of your guru. So in the meantime you are probably just going to end up enjoying your trip to San Francisco.

It depends on the level of your consciousness. Some folks believe that the Sun has departed when it gets dark at night. Others consider that this is our limited vision, if you go up in the sky you'll find that the Sun is always the same, no rising, no setting.

Similarly, some say, guru such and such has departed, others say what you mean by departed? It is your position which makes it look like a Vaishnava has departed.

[theist]

 

Positions of different Vaisnava groups vary on the level or quality of omniscience in a departed Vaisnava guru. He may be “living still in sound” but to some he just “ain’t hangin’ around”. And indeed, the confusion is almost enough to make one wonder how many elements of the Vaisnava guru-sishya tradition some might want from the Shankarites. After all, Shankara was at least around before Madhva.

 

I don’t understand the idea of omniscience in an empowered jiva. How can one know everything without being present everywhere? And if you were running and playing with Krishna why would you want to? The Sankarites superimpose all the attributes of Iswara and Brahman on the guru. But the Vaisnava by his own admission never becomes an incarnation of God.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that omniscience (knows everything) in the guru means the guru knows everything because he knows Krishna, who is everything.

 

If the guru needs to know anything for his service to Krishna then Krishna who knows every detail of everything can tell him and empower him with the ability to understand.

 

 

The idea that guru knows how many atoms there are in the universe is farcical. There seems to be a difference in Srila Prabhupada's explaination and NM, I am not sure.

 

 

And if you were running and playing with Krishna why would you want to?

 

Exactly!!! Not even Krishna wants to know such details in Goloka-lila. "Let Vishnu handle it".

 

 

So the sishya is required to make offerings to his Vaisnava guru first, whether here or departed, so that the guru can then offer it to Krishna. Sri Krishna is described as the ultimate enjoyer, the supreme enjoyer and the only enjoyer. But I am considering that there is a crisis of power in the ability to sacrifice enjoyment for Krishna, and perhaps on both sides.

 

?

 

 

Say for example you enjoy the City of San Francisco. So you want to make a sacrifice and offer the entire city to your guru. You may not have the power to do this. You would have to go to Goloka after the entire city was transformed into cintamani and place it as an offering at the lotus feet of your guru. So in the meantime you are probably just going to end up enjoying your trip to San Francisco.

 

Krishna's compassionate devotee already wants to offer every living being in Krishna's service but that entails convincing the jiva to freely become a devotee himself. After this the cities, world's and universes will follow with no separate endeavor on the devotees part. But attracting one to krishna and convincing him to love krishna is no simply task.

 

Besides this krishna has no need of San Francisco. It is already in His control. What he desires is the forgotten love from the hearts of the lost living entities be redirected to Him.

 

Hare Krishna

[visnujana]

Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja has explained once that Guru is a principle. - This is the power given by Krishna to a particular devotee to act as a Guru. The purpose of this is that through the medium of Guru one can establish deep relationship with the transcendental realm. One can speak to guru, touch his feet, serve him, etc. - So, it is easier to have relationship with him. However he is transcendental, because he is empowered by Krishna and a lot of times this is also an elevated liberated vaisnava.

Some devotees asked Sridhar Maharaja: 'It is said that if a disciple won't make it in this lifetime and will have to take birth again, his Guru will come again also to deliver him. But it is also said that a Guru is a perfect soul who will go to Krishna. How can we understand this?"

He said that another devotee might come as Guru but he will be able to help in exactly the same personal way as the one in the previous life. Because Krishna is adi-guru, He gives the power.

In the similar way it is definitely said in the Gaudiya-vaisnavism that vaisnavas live forever. Meaning that even departed vaisnavas can always and fully extend their help to ones that have faith in them and approach them for help. This is done also through the divine potency of Krishna, as Krishna is the adi-guru, and that's why the Gaudiyas esteblish vaisnava-samadhis everywhere. Because when a sincere and faithful vaisnava visits samadhi and prays for the vaisnava's mercy, he will receive it.

[rasa_prada]

 

Exactly!!! Not even Krishna wants to know such details in Goloka-lila. "Let Vishnu handle it".

This at least leads me to believe that insignificant bhog offerings like Cape Cod Kettle Cooked Potato Chips should be performed with the Sri Vishnu mantra.

 

Thanks for the replies. Maybe I wasn't clear in some places. I meant that since complete omniscience requires omnipresence, the guru isn't there to accept every little (or big) thing. Only Vishnu has that power.

 

From the replies I would say that the exception might be that if bhakti is developed to the point where Krishna wants to give the Guru in Goloka the news about his bhakta, the Vaisnava guru could then accept the bhog and offer it to Krishna.