Is philosophy enough?

[visnujana]

 

I would like to continue to believe that the Hare Krishna movement is all about chanting the name of the Lord.

 

I do not to the view that "a MOODA can not attain the lotus feet of the Lord."

I believe that 'mooda' here is a sanskrit word meaning less educated or somewhat materially less intelligent. If so, I think most of us would agree that bhakti does not depend on anything material. No material qualification can increase spiritual progress, nor there is any material disqualification that can hinder it.

In either case knowledge in bhakti is acquired through the mercy of the guru, not through the analytical study. Anyone can sincerely serve guru and receive his mercy. No material qualification is necessary for this. Studying bhakti-stastra is like associating with sadhu (guru). If I have only material qualification, but I have not served my guru sincerely I won't be able to understand anything. But if someone does not even have much time for studying the stastra and yet is sincerely engaged in the service of sri guru all the mercy and understanding will come anyway.

yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah prasante mahatmanah

The conclusive essence of the scriptures is revealed only to those great souls who have transcendental devotion (para-bhakti) unto Sri Bhagavan and equal devotion for Sri Gurudeva.

Svetasvatara Upanishad, 6.23

But this sincerity in the service of sri guru is actually a high thing (para-bhakti) - transcendental devotion. It usually suggests that all the scriptures have been scrutinized by this person in his previous lives. The person's humble appearance in this life (his prarabdha-karma) should not confuse us.

So, practically speaking the scriptures are still needed. Otherwise they would not have been written.

[ranjeetmore]

 

To me Bhakthi is total surrender to GOD. I was under the impression that the Hare Krishna movement was all about chanting the Lord's name..

 

Yes Total surrender to God.But does Everyone have the sanskaras to surrender in one second ??

 

No.

 

A person who cannot see the Supreme Lord with his present vision,needs a lot of coaxing to accept that the Lord is seated as Paramatma in everybody.

 

This coaxing comes with repeatedly making him understanding the Paramatma tattva.This is just One example.

 

 

I am surprised to know that you can not become a Bhaktha if you do not know the scriptures and philosophies.

No.You don't become bhakta if you don't know what the Acharyas have set down as facts through scriptural revelation.

 

Sri Krsna is very affectionate towards Sri tulsidevi.This is understood through knowing of siddhanta.

 

Many shajiyyas ignore Srimati Radharani or Balarama and dismiss Them as mere Jeevatmas or such.This is the father of all offences.These facts are understood through the realised guru,who knows the Sri Krsna tattva,radha tattva in practicality.

 

 

 

Bhakthi movement spread like wild fire in India because it did away with the caste restrictions. GOD was accessible to all Hindus irrespective of caste. If the Bhakthi movement had insisted on a knowledge of scriptures and philosophies, it would have never become popular. The reason is that only the Brahmins were allowed to study the scriptures.

 

I never said anything about caste.

 

In fact Gajendra achieved moksa.An elephant for God's sake.

 

Even the great rsis in svarga etc don't get this moksa.

 

This rule in bhakti that no caste is required,is Unique.In jnana and karma...there is no such freedom.

 

But still,it is mandatory to know tattva.Lokmanya tilak didn't know the tattva.You should read his works to know how confused he was and what nonsense he had concocted in his mind.

On the other hand,Haridas Thakura was a muslim born.BUT he knew the tattva that Sri Krsna is Saguna Saakar Brahm Who has an Eternal body,Names and Pastimes.This is COMPLUSORY.

 

I told you bout the book which was written by a deluded person.He said,"Krshna is God who has taken up material body and that's why He experiences INTENSE human emotions like lust."

Forget the paap he himself is commiting,he will also spoil the intelligence of some 1000 people who read his work.This is strcitly condemned.

 

I would like to continue to believe that the Hare Krishna movement is all about chanting the name of the Lord.

 

 

I do not to the view that "a MOODA can not attain the lotus feet of the Lord." And I believe that Sri Chithanya Maha Prabhu, Tukaram and other saints whom I revere never said such a thing.

 

Moodha can certainly attain.But not the rascal who doesn;t know that the dealings between Sri Krsna and the gopis is purely arranged by Yogamaya or the Cit sakti and speculates,"Krishna is dancing with girls,even i should dance with girls to please the Lord."

 

This is complete nonsense and aggravates everything opposed to bhakti.

 

 

I have deleted my earlier posts.

 

I remain

 

A MOODA Bhaktha/Upasaka

 

I am happy to join the Gopis of Brindavan in Mooda Bhakthi.

 

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/dec96/0022.html

 

You cannot JOIN the GOPIS OF VRINDAVANA !!!!

 

The Gopis thought about Shyamasundara Every single millisecond of every second of every minute of every hour or every single day.

 

I don't know about you,but No one on earth can do that.Not even for 10 minutes straight.

 

There is a difference between gopis and me.The gopis are eternal associates of the Lord and THEMSELVES the Acharyas of the highest bhakti.

IT IS A FACT that those who have achieved Prema...like the Gopis..THEY ARE BEYOND THE LAWS of the VeDAS.

THE GOPIS AND BHAGAVAN.

Hari and Guru are beyond the vedic rules.The vedic rules have to be followed to attain Them.

 

So no one can even come near the level of gopis just like that.

 

There are rules established by acharyas by way of trance or directly by the Lord:

 

Vaidhi bhakti.

 

This bhakti is the first step.This is the bhakti which the person has to perform under the guidance of a prema bhakta.

 

Raganuga bhakti:

This bhakti appears after the mind is sufficiently attached to the Lord and His associates.There is no other way of reaching this stage.This happens only thorugh sadhana.

 

Prema: This is the Causeless bhakti that appears in the heart after guru gives kripa.This bhakti is different.It is divya.

 

Gopis,Prahlada,Hanumanji,etc have the last type of bhakti.

 

We ?? We don't even perform vaidhi bhakti properly.Thus it behooves us to understand Krsna Tattva and remember Him along with His attributes,Abode and Names and Associates:

 

Without knowing the divinity of Sri Krsna and His expansions and His forms,any rascal 'devotee' might just think that Varah Bhagavan,Who appeared in a Boar Form is impure.

 

There are many such things....it is very important to know these things..

[sambya]

 

So do you think mahavir is considered as god, no read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavir...27s_philosophy,

as for guru granth sahib i dont think sikhs refer it to as god.

Its a book cmon do some research before asking.

christians pray to vishnu as i have posted it earlier from bhavishya puraan.

Ahura mazda is a name just like god.

even allah is.It refers to god as lord of universe,all pervading etc. and so this can be attributed to vishnu and even shiva .

Besides the brahman and all pervading energy of god is everywhere.

 

my point in asking this was whether you believe that they are also the same god .

 

and to make you remember i wanted causes or explanation for your answers .

 

for example why do you think allah is god

why do you think shiva is not god ............

[primate]

I think the answer might be simple. Starting from the philosophical premise that everything is One, it follows that nothing within our conscious experience exists independently, not even the soul or the true self. Oneness means that God (Brahman) is ultimately everything. So, God is you, i.e., your conscious soul or true self; God is your personal mind, intellect and ego; God is all your perceptions, thoughts and idea's; thus, God is your body and all other material manifestations; and God is Krishna/Vishnu, Shiva, Allah, the father, etcetera..

[chandu_69]

 

No.You don't become bhakta if you don't know what the Acharyas have set down as facts through scriptural revelation.....

 

But still,it is mandatory to know tattva.

 

 

Gita 18:66 Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

 

[sant]

 

my point in asking this was whether you believe that they are also the same god .

 

and to make you remember i wanted causes or explanation for your answers .

 

for example why do you think allah is god

why do you think shiva is not god ............

 

 

shiva is god only second to vishnu.He is not a jiva.he is lord of jivas.But then god is all powerful that is why we sometimes mention him as demigod.But shivling represents the formless brahman i guess (correct me on this) and all shaivs also beleive param shiva to be the origin of paratpara shiva so there shouldnt be any problem if youre a shaivite.Now for shakts the same is true they beleive formless brahman which can be attained in samadhi to be devi, they call it maa only because they are interested in worshipping the divine feminnie energy.But then thats again just a name.

Allah i told you is a name read this-

 

 

Muslims believe that God revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad, God's final prophet, through the angel Gabriel, and regard the Qur'an and the Sunnah (words and deeds of Muhammad) as the fundamental sources of Islam.<SUP class=reference id=cite_ref-5>[5]</SUP> They do not regard Muhammad as the founder of a new religion, but as the restorer of the original monotheistic faith of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets. Islamic tradition holds that Jews and Christians distorted the revelations God gave to these prophets by either altering the text, introducing a false interpretation, or both.

 

so do you undrestand and ive already told you how god of christians is vishnu.

They both beleive god is a person.

<SUP></SUP>

<SUP></SUP>

<SUP></SUP>

[sambya]

 

so do you undrestand and ive already told you how god of christians is vishnu.

They both beleive god is a person.

 

actually i dont !!

 

no one can !!

 

both are person......thats fine .

 

but what else ? what strong similarities are there to label christian god as vishnu ? does he have a kaustabh mani ? srivatsa , samkha chakra bla bla ? if he does not then how does he turn into vishnu merely by one distant similarity ?

[sant]

i have posted this have a read

 

Muni tell that, Vishnu Bhakti, Agni worship,

Ahinsaa, Tapasyaa and controlling of Indriyaan are Dharm of Mlechchh.

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/453282-hindu-beliefs-ritulas.html

[ranjeetmore]

 

actually i dont !!

 

no one can !!

 

both are person......thats fine .

 

but what else ? what strong similarities are there to label christian god as vishnu ? does he have a kaustabh mani ? srivatsa , samkha chakra bla bla ? if he does not then how does he turn into vishnu merely by one distant similarity ?

[kaisersose]

 

so do you undrestand and ive already told you how god of christians is vishnu.

They both beleive god is a person.

<SUP></SUP>

<SUP></SUP>

<SUP></SUP>

 

Followers of Shiva believe he is a person too. I say the God of the Bible is Shiva.

 

See the problem?

 

Cheers

[ranjeetmore]

 

Followers of Shiva believe he is a person too. I say the God of the Bible is Shiva.

 

See the problem?

 

Cheers

 

The mount of Yahweh(or jehovah ?) resembles Garuda...There are some few other things too....I will produce them if i find them

 

 

doesn't matter even if it proves to be true(yahweh is shiva)....

 

As long as it not Indra or the material demigods....

 

The bhagvatam calls Lord Sadashiva as 'Supreme Brahm beyond material manifestation'.

 

***

Now tell me,Kaisersose....What else do you have to say ???

 

Please don't be so lame as to say,"Kaisersose is a person...so the Cristian God is Kaisersose."

[chandu_69]

 

you need to simply compare the Bhagavatam with the Bible.

 

And you have not read the bible or quran otherwise you would not have made this stupid statement.FYI, bible has two parts OT and NT.

[chandu_69]

 

The mount of Yahweh(or jehovah ?) resembles Garuda...There are some few other things too....I will produce them if i find them

 

Where did you get the description of Mount of Yahweh?.Do you know Yahweh cannot be referred by his name.The jews refer him with fear writing god as go-d.

[sant]

 

I say the God of the Bible is Shiva.

 

See the problem?

 

 

Great so i suppose you dont beleive the bhavishya puraan.

Ok my main purpose of saying it is because prabhupada said so.

And so i believe him.

You skeptics wouldnt digest that so i quoted bhavishya puraan.

Now you wont beleive that also.

So i tell you to apply your logic since so called scientists have been applying that only i guess.

The lord of chrisrians is all pervading,all knowledgable,omnipresent,supreme,all knowable,all, all beautiful,all mighty,

all atrractive,the creator of the world above and supreme to all in all qualities,endless,

So you decide who should be possesing all these qualities.

[kaisersose]

 

The lord of chrisrians is all pervading,all knowledgable,omnipresent,supreme,all knowable,all, all beautiful,all mighty,

all atrractive,the creator of the world above and supreme to all in all qualities,endless,

So you decide who should be possesing all these qualities.

 

Who? It is the God of the Christians. There is no need to try and find an equivalent for the Christian God in other religions. Christianity rejects all the other Gods including Krishna, as false. People who follow these false Gods are doomed to eternal Hell.

 

So if you try your unsubstantiated "Krishna = Christian God", no Christian will accept it because,

 

1) Christianity rejects Krishna as a false God

2) You say the Christian God = Krishna

3) By 1) and 2) the Christian should reject his own God as false, which is a paradox as he is not a Christian then.

 

Cheers

[ranjeetmore]

This is conversation with an Actual CRISTIAN SCHOLAR and Satyaraja Dasa:

 

http://www.vconline.biz/2004/04novdec/garuda%20vs%20cherub%20short%20version.pdf

 

Mount of Yahweh..etc IS described INDEED.

 

Chandu...I have read some of the bible...and it only leads to one thing: God is Infinitely kind and we should Love Him.

 

I can see no one(except kaisersose) who proposes that any person can LOVE the Nirguna,Niraakar Brahm.

[sambya]

 

The lord of chrisrians is all pervading,all knowledgable,omnipresent,supreme,all knowable,all, all beautiful,all mighty,

all atrractive,the creator of the world above and supreme to all in all qualities,endless,

So you decide who should be possesing all these qualities.

 

 

firstly i cant remember of any christian glorifying the beauty of lord . this is because beauty is a characteristic feature of a humanistic person . but christian god is personal non-anthropomorphic .

 

secondly if its is sadaishwarya or six opulences that you are speaking of then i think you are not quite educated on this yet. many other dieties of hindu pantheon also has this six opulances-complete weath, fame, beauty , renunciation , power , knowledge ...................... devi to state just an example .

 

now its your turn to decide to whom you want to attribute all these qualities............choice is yours............go ahead and vote !!!

[sambya]

 

I can see no one(except kaisersose) who proposes that any person can LOVE the Nirguna,Niraakar Brahm.

 

i did see no one here in this forum who ever proposed someone to try love an impersonal nirguna nirakaar brahm .

 

but i do see someone in this forum(the person to whom im replying to be specific)whom i would like to propose that he is in mental nirakaar bhram .

[ranjeetmore]

 

Who? It is the God of the Christians. There is no need to try and find an equivalent for the Christian God in other religions. Christianity rejects all the other Gods including Krishna, as false. People who follow these false Gods are doomed to eternal Hell.

 

So if you try your unsubstantiated "Krishna = Christian God", no Christian will accept it because,

 

1) Christianity rejects Krishna as a false God

2) You say the Christian God = Krishna

3) By 1) and 2) the Christian should reject his own God as false, which is a paradox as he is not a Christian then.

 

Cheers

 

 

Christianity denies IDOL worship.agreed.

 

Do you even know how Idol worship is defined in christianity???

 

Idol worshipping is making an idol inspired from NAture and/or speculative faculty.

 

Eg.. The pagans etc.. who worship nature and a sad scholar who concocted an image of a Nature woman and declared that she should be worshipped.

 

The above link clarifies this point much better(read: From an ACTUAL christian.)

 

Any sane person should believe that ,"You shall have no other gods before Me"

 

is along the same lines as Sri Krsna Declares in the geeta,"Demigod worship..don't do it."

 

 

BESIDES...The Vaishnavacharyas dont give two hoots if Christianity accepts the truth or no.God reveals Himself fully in the Vedic literatures,Bhagvatam and the Geeta.These scriptures are self sufficient and supreme.If you don't think so...kindly join Jehad or something.

 

...When the Vaishnavacharyas say ''Allah,Yahweh refer to the same supreme Lord."

 

It is meant that they have incomplete conceptions of God...The vedas are crystal clear: Jnana,Karma and bhakti.These are the three paths with which you attain that Supreme Lord.

There is no other way.To support this fact,the tattva of Karma is glaringly obvious.

 

You have inclinations towards the attainment of God ?

You are born here,in bharatvarsa.

 

You don't ?

You are born in west.

 

You are addicted to ganja but still have sentiments for the Lord?

You are born during a time when a mahabhagavata travels to the west and you happen to meet him.

 

Dont believe me ?

Then is say it again : Go and join Jehad or become a naked Jain.Don't eat our heads.

[sambya]

 

The vedas are crystal clear: Jnana,Karma and bhakti.These are the three paths with which you attain that Supreme Lord.

 

ooh !!!!!!

 

so you admit that there are three diferent paths ???

 

then what was the need of creating such a fuss over advaita mayavada etc over the last few months ??!!!!!!!!!

 

gyana is also a path ........... leave it alone !!!

[ranjeetmore]

 

firstly i cant remember of any christian glorifying the beauty of lord . this is because beauty is a characteristic feature of a humanistic person . but christian god is personal non-anthropomorphic .

 

"He looked at light and decided it was good."

 

He LOOKED sambya.He LOOKED.

 

Do you know what is the Purusha Sukta?

It is filled with the indications of the PErson of the Supreme Lord Narayana.

It is a different thing that some unintelligent people need NAMES.Actual NAMES to be specified.

 

Don't worry.Vedavyasa ji was All knowing.There is Subala Shruti too for such people.

 

 

secondly if its is sadaishwarya or six opulences that you are speaking of then i think you are not quite educated on this yet. many other dieties of hindu pantheon also has this six opulances-complete weath, fame, beauty , renunciation , power , knowledge ...................... devi to state just an example .

 

now its your turn to decide to whom you want to attribute all these qualities............choice is yours............go ahead and vote !!!

 

There is the Devi Geeta.Is there Not ?

There is Shiva Geeta.Is there Not ?

 

And there is Bhagavat Geeta.

 

Now Sripada Shankaracharya commented on this last Geeta.And what did he happen to state ???

Sri Krsna is Shada aisvarya sampanna Bhagavan.

 

You might ask ,"Ranjeet why should I accept what shankaracharya says ?"

 

Well,then accept what Ramanujacharya says.

No ?

Nimbarkacharya ?

No?

Vallabhacharya?

No?

Madhvacharya?

No?

 

Then I'm sorry.Do whatever you want.I suggest Osho.He is one rotten fruit that has fallen far from the tree of acharyas.

[ranjeetmore]

 

ooh !!!!!!

 

so you admit that there are three diferent paths ???

 

then what was the need of creating such a fuss over advaita mayavada etc over the last few months ??!!!!!!!!!

 

gyana is also a path ........... leave it alone !!!

 

fine.

 

Gyana is the path which Sri Krsna laid down in the Geeta.

 

The gyana marga which you cherish is not independent.

[sambya]

 

"He looked at light and decided it was good."

 

He LOOKED sambya.He LOOKED.

so you think that merely having eyes to look , is something exceptionally beautifull ?

 

there's no necessity that there has to be eyes to enable a person to look . a yogi or rakshasa after becoming invisible can look around perfectly . a ghost living in sukshma sarira can also look around !!

 

 

 

Do you know what is the Purusha Sukta?

It is filled with the indications of the PErson of the Supreme Lord Narayana.

 

do you know the correct intonation for chanting purusha sukta ? i have it by heart . all through the purusha sukta there not even a single utterence of the word narayan !!

 

 

There is the Devi Geeta.Is there Not ?

There is Shiva Geeta.Is there Not ?

 

i thought we were discussing about six opulances ......... are you having trouble understanding ranjeet ??? im really concerned about your health !!

 

 

 

I suggest Osho.He is one rotten fruit that has fallen far from the tree of acharyas.

you know good english !! who taught you ???

[sambya]

 

fine.

 

Gyana is the path which Sri Krsna laid down in the Geeta.

 

The gyana marga which you cherish is not independent.

 

just see how confused you are !!

 

just a moment ago you said that vedas proclaim three paths . now you say that gyana path is not independent .

 

that would mean that the other two paths converge onto the central bhakti path before finally reaching god .

 

but the paradox is that , then they wouldnthave been called paths at all ...........but again the vedas said three paths !!!

[ranjeetmore]

 

Gita 18:66 Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

 

 

 

Very true.Eternally true.In fact,you just stated the Supreme summary of the vedas(it's a different thing that you don't actually follow it.)

BUT.

 

 

"Dharmah projhit kaitavo paramo nirmatsaranam sataam,"

 

-Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.2.

 

dharma refers to- dharma,artha,kaam,moksa.

 

"Agyan tamera naam kahiye kaitav"- Gauranga Mahaprabhu.

 

The best Vaishnavacharya is stating too.Dharma,artha,kaam and moksha.

 

These are kaitav...fraudulent..They are NOT TO BE HANKERED AFTER.

 

He further states,"taar madhye moksha vancha kaitav pradhan"

 

Out of these four,Moksha is the most dangerous.

 

 

So ,

"Sarva dharma parityajya..."

 

Sarva dharma..this 'dharma' refers to Dharm.Arth.Kaam.Moksa.

 

Dharm,arth,kaam- these are for Sansar...Material happiness.(karma marga.)

 

Moksha.(Jnyana marga.)

 

 

So this 'dharma' is to be decried.

 

What is to be done ?

"MAm EKAM sharnam Vraja."

 

Surrender ONLY to Me.

 

Bhagavatam states that"This surrendering to Sri Krsna ITSELF is Bhagvata Dharma."

 

 

 

So when Sri Krsna states,"Abandon all VARIETIES of Religion."

He means variations of the above four- Dharma,artha,kaam and moksa.

 

Whatever nonsense philosophies are there..they are all variations of Dharma artha Kaam and Moksha.

 

You might ask,"Why isn't bhagavata dharma included in the list ?"

 

Bhagavata dharma ITSELF is the religion that teaches SOLELY to surrender unto Sri Krsna.

But there is the need to understand Sri Krsna.Who is Sri Krsna?

How does He appear?

Of what nature are His activities??

Is He kind,Is He all-pervasisve?

Is He all attractive??

 

All this is FIRSTLY explained in the Bhagavatam and by the acharyas.

 

A western person doesn't even know how He looks.So what should he do?How will he surrender?

That's why it is necessary to know Sri Krsna Tattva.Only then surrender to Him is possible.

 

A person who thinks that Sri Krsna is not merciful..why will he surrender??

But the acharyas explain that Sri Krsna is an ocean of mercy..Infinitely merciful...

This knowledge come by knowing this tattva jnana.

 

I still don't see why is it so hard to understand.