Neo-Hinduism - What Is It?

[kaisersose]

 

You call the oldest Philosophy of Hinduism as a farce. There are millions of Hindus following Purva Mimansa. You do not accept the other systems of Philosophy like Sankhya, Yoga and others.

 

Don't hold your breath waiting for Ranjeet to post anything knowledgeable. That is not going to happen.

 

On another thread, he just posted that Shaivas state Shiva does not have a form! Do you really want to waste your time debating an ignoramus who does not know the difference between Advaita & Shaivism?

 

Cheers

[sant]

 

On another thread, he just posted that Shaivas state Shiva does not have a form! Do you really want to waste your time debating an ignoramus who does not know the difference between Advaita & Shaivism

Shaivism is advait , maybe not in true advatin way but anyway it is advait..

Differences are that advait say everything is brahman

Shaivism says everything is shiva(param shiva not rudra dev)

Param shiva doesnt have a form.

Shiva ,rudra and jeev are regarded as same in shaivism.

They are disguised advaits.

Havent you heard shivohum -i am shiva

If that does not amount to advait then please tell how.

[kaisersose]

 

Shaivism is advait , maybe not in true advatin way but anyway it is advait..

Differences are that advait say everything is brahman

Shaivism says everything is shiva(param shiva not rudra dev)

Param shiva doesnt have a form.

Shiva ,rudra and jeev are regarded as same in shaivism.

They are disguised advaits.

Havent you heard shivohum -i am shiva

If that does not amount to advait then please tell how.

 

This is what happens when you draw your information from the wrong sources. Learning about Shaivism from Vaishnavas is a good example.

 

Shaiva -> one who worships Shiva. There are several flavors of Shaivism, and I am not aware of any of them worshipping a formless Shiva.

 

Advaita, with its concept of a Nirguna Brahman, is a doctrine. It can be adopted by Vishnu worshippers and Shiva worshippers alike, after which they view Shiva or Krishna as a symbol of Brahman. It is completely false that Shaivas are Advaitins. Most Shaivas have never even heard of Advaita.

 

Ranjeet's post was absolute and pure nonsense, of course. It reaffirms (yet again) that he does not know fundamentals. If you disagree, please post some evidence.

 

Cheers

[sant]

Lingayats believe in a monotheistic world where Linga or Parashiva the supreme god and self are one and the same. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingayatism

 

Although Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta both teach nondualism, the non-dualism of Kashmir Shaivism is quite different from that of Advaita Vedanta. Essential to this difference is Advaita Vedanta's proposition that this universe is untrue and unreal, that it is a false projection of maya. This theory is completely opposed to the Kashmir Shaiva theory of reality. To counter this proposition Kashmir Shaivism argues that, if Shiva is real, how could an unreal substance emerge from something that is real?

http://www.kashmirshaivism.org/introduction.html

 

I have heard it from baba avdhut shivanand also who is a great advait shaiv here.He also says the self and shiva is same,shivohum aham brahamasmi

www.shivyog.com

[kaisersose]

 

Lingayats believe in a monotheistic world where Linga or Parashiva the supreme god and self are one and the same. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingayatism

 

Nothing about a formless Shiva.

 

 

Although Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta both teach nondualism, the non-dualism of Kashmir Shaivism is quite different from that of Advaita Vedanta. Essential to this difference is Advaita Vedanta's proposition that this universe is untrue and unreal, that it is a false projection of maya. This theory is completely opposed to the Kashmir Shaiva theory of reality. To counter this proposition Kashmir Shaivism argues that, if Shiva is real, how could an unreal substance emerge from something that is real?

http://www.kashmirshaivism.org/introduction.html

 

I have heard it from baba avdhut shivanand also who is a great advait shaiv here.He also says the self and shiva is same,shivohum aham brahamasmi

www.shivyog.com

 

Nothing about a formless Shiva here either. And nothing to indicate that Shaivism = Advaita. Once again, an Advaitin can worship Vishnu, Rama, Shiva, etc.

 

And I sure you are not taking the position that an Advaitin is a Shaiva even if he is worshipping Krishna!

 

Cheers

[sant]

 

Nothing about a formless Shiva.

 

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The lingam is the simplest and most ancient symbol of Shiva, especially of Parasiva, God beyond all forms and qualities.

 

Use some logic or maybe common sense

 

The fact that kashmir shaivism teaches non dualism that means everything is brahman.

[kaisersose]

 

The lingam is the simplest and most ancient symbol of Shiva, especially of Parasiva, God beyond all forms and qualities.

 

The Lingam is a form with shape, size and color - not unlike a conch in the Vaishnava world. Nothing about a formless Shiva.

 

 

Use some logic or maybe common sense

 

OK.

 

 

The fact that kashmir shaivism teaches non dualism that means everything is brahman.

 

Any flavor of Shaivism or Vaishnavism, can always add to the fundamental concept of Shiva worship or Vishnu worship. Hardly means we can go the other way and make a generalization.

 

There are several Advaitins who worship Krishna and no one else. Can we conclude that Vaishnavism = Advaita?

 

Cheers

[sant]

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by sant

The lingam is the simplest and most ancient symbol of Shiva, especially of Parasiva, God beyond all forms and qualities.

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The Lingam is a form with shape, size and color. Nothing about a formless Shiva.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Use some logic or maybe common sense </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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OK.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The fact that kashmir shaivism teaches non dualism that means everything is brahman. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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Any flavor of Shaivism or Vaishnavism, can always add to the fundamental concept of Shiva worship or Vishnu worship. Hardly means we can go the other way and make a generalization.

 

There are several Advaitins who worship Krishna and no one else. Can we conclude that Vaishnavism = Advaita?

 

Cheers

 

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ok i told you they are advait in disguise but not true advait,i will tell you about formless shiva another time since i dont have the material right now,But i am not saying this myself but i have learnt this from a shaiv only and a really great one.

And for shivling it represents the formless god ask any shaivite that, have a look at prince goutham now-Characteristics of the Supreme Reality: The Supreme Reality is called Siva. He is infinite consciousness. He is eternal, changeless, formless, independent, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, one without a second, beginningless, causeless, taintless, self-existent, ever free, ever pure, and perfect. He is not limited by time. He is infinite bliss and infinite intelligence. He is free from defects, the all-doer, the all-knower.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/39026-do-vaishnavas-ever-pray-lord-ganesha-5.html

 

Though he does not beleive in advait.

[kaisersose]

 

ok i told you they are advait in disguise but not true advait,i will tell you about formless shiva another time since i dont have the material right now,But i am not saying this myself but i have learnt this from a shaiv only and a really great one.

And for shivling it represents the formless god ask any shaivite that, have a look at prince goutham now-Characteristics of the Supreme Reality: The Supreme Reality is called Siva. He is infinite consciousness. He is eternal, changeless, formless, independent, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, one without a second, beginningless, causeless, taintless, self-existent, ever free, ever pure, and perfect. He is not limited by time. He is infinite bliss and infinite intelligence. He is free from defects, the all-doer, the all-knower.

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/39026-do-vaishnavas-ever-pray-lord-ganesha-5.html

 

Though he does not beleive in advait.

 

Shaivism far predates Advaita. How then can it be "disguised Advaita"?

 

To recap, we are talking about Shaivas and their conception of a formless Shiva as claimed by Ranjeet. If you have evidence that Shaivas are characterized by worshipping a formless Shiva, which would mean the Shiva with a form is a non-Shaiva entity (as claimed by Ranjeet), then you may have a case. If not, then you can agree that we were just seeing more of Ranjeet's spiel.

 

Cheers

[chandu_69]

Mimamsa means enquiry/investigation.Mimamsa is an interpretation based on vedic texts.The exegesis based on enquiry may change from scholar to scholar or from time to time.

 

No need to say anything strongly or for against Mimamsa.

[sant]

 

To recap, we are talking about Shaivas and their conception of a formless Shiva as claimed by Ranjeet. If you have evidence that Shaivas are characterized by worshipping a formless Shiva, which would mean the Shiva with a form is a non-Shaiva entity (as claimed by Ranjeet), then you may have a case. If not, then you can agree that we were just seeing more of Ranjeet's spiel.

 

so you believe now shaiva worship formless shiva

[bhaktajan]

"Nothing about a formless Shiva." --?????????????????

 

That is the ONLY thing that the Shivites who have been posting on Audarya have ever said about the THEIR GOAL in Shiva-worship: Impersonal merging into a formless state.

 

 

 

The Big "Shiva is Godhead" talker here on Audarya has been Princegoutham [aka, ???] who, when asked, by me:

 

What is the reason for seeking artha, kama, Dharma & moksha?

Where is spiritural enjoyment, pastimes & purpose of existance --in your so-called Devotion to Shiva?

Where is heaven and why do we seek it?

Princegoutham answered thus:

My sanathana dharma believes in the concept of Dharma,Artha,<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comkama</st1:place>, Dharma & moksha?<font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">kama</st1:place> and moksha.<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Follow Dharma ---- Earn (money)Artha ----- Fulfill Desires(<st1:place w:st="on">kama</st1:place>) ----- attain moksha. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>'Dharma' is eternal. One who follows dharma is protected by dharma( Dharmo rakshati rakshitah). one who does Adharma is bound to perish just like Ravana,kauravas etc. Hence, we believe in eternal dharma. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Artha(money) is one of the purusharthas. one must toil to earn 'artha(money)' . with that 'artha' one must fulfill '<st1:place w:st="on">kama</st1:place>'(desires). unless one is free from '<st1:place w:st="on">kama</st1:place>'(desire) one cannot attain moksha. One must earn "artha"(money) and fulfil '<st1:place w:st="on">kama</st1:place>'(desire) only in 'Dharmic' way. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>'<st1:place w:st="on">kama</st1:place>'(desire) is the very basis of existance. one who is free from '<st1:place w:st="on">kama</st1:place>' can alone get 'moksha'. All the desires are to be fulfilled only in Dharmic way. satisaction can alone put full stop to '<st1:place w:st="on">kama</st1:place>' but not repetition of work. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Where is spiritural enjoyment, pastimes & purpose of existance --in your so-called Devotion to Shiva? <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Shiva is the 'self' of all beings. The devotees of Shiva who realises their essential nature as Sat-chit-Ananda need not look for any kind of enjoyments. Pastimes are for those who are unable to rise beyond 'time'. but shiva is beyond space and time. He is the creator of both space and time. He is the nondual supreme self. The great yogis regulate their breath, control and still their mind, look inward and enjoy the bliss with their hair standing on edge and eyes filled with tears of joy It looks as though they are immersed in nectar that bliss which they see in their heart and exult thus, is verily Shiva. <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

 

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Where is heaven and why do we seek it?<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>

 

<FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana>Heaven,hell,planets..etc are for those who are bewildered by ignorance. The devotees of shiva who realises themselves as 'Atman' are not bounded by hell or heaven. The 'self' is all pervading. Hence, There is neither going nor coming. This unborn Atman is the basis for time,space,heaen,hell,spiritual planets..etc.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - -

</I>

 

 

[bhaktajan]

So-called students of the Vedas are condemned when they are ignorant of the actual purpose of the Vedas on account of their "disobeying the Acaryas; or neglecting the authority of great teachers (Acaryas); or they follow so-called Acaryas who are not in any chain of transcendental succession (parampara/sampradaya)

 

... One must approach a bona fide spiritual master in order to understand the transcendental message of the Vedas. That is the direction of the Mundaka Upanishad (1.2.12).

[kaisersose]

 

So-called students of the Vedas are condemned when they are ignorant of the actual purpose of the Vedas on account of their "disobeying the Acaryas; or neglecting the authority of great teachers (Acaryas); or they follow so-called Acaryas who are not in any chain of transcendental succession (parampara/sampradaya)

 

... One must approach a bona fide spiritual master in order to understand the transcendental message of the Vedas. That is the direction of the Mundaka Upanishad (1.2.12).

 

The actual Mundaka verse says "a Brahmana who desires learning should approach a Guru with fuel in his hands...". Looks like your translator left the controversial parts out to make his life easier! How many Brahmanas do you know who approached their Gurus with fuel (firewood, gasoline, nuclear...anything) in their hands?

 

Anyway, this verse has no bearing on Shaivism in general, as most Shaivism groups have no interest in the Vedas - which is in line with most of Hinduism.

 

Cheers

[kaisersose]

 

so you believe now shaiva worship formless shiva

 

With due respect, you should seriously work on improving your english for I said no such thing. This is just my opinion - but I believe time spent on improving your lingual skills is likely to benefit you more than time spent on Rama and Krishna. This is a real world we live in, and it requires real world skills to survive. Clearly Rama & Krishna are yet to show real interest in our world and our problems. Does not matter if you are a devotee or not - you need the right skills to land a job and the right care to treat an ailment. No magic is forthcoming from Vaikunta or Goloka or any such place.

 

Cheers

[bhaktajan]

HEY you!

 

I'm translating for your pompous arse right here:

 

Looks like your translator left the controversial parts out: the word "MUST" [as in 'complusary' as in 'required']

 

Brahmanas . . . who approached their Gurus with fuel ---???

What is blood, sweat & tears refer to? Money makes the world go round?

Or is it fuel that makes to wheel go round and round?

 

This is a real world we live in . . . it requires real world skills . . . yet GOD shows no REAL interest in our world and our problems. ---Hiroshima & Nagasaki & Dresdin & Berlin & London ---all share a common denouminator: Mass workers earning mass-results. Fruitless efforts en-mass?

 

432,000 Human years [the length of Kali-Yuga] = 1,200 years of the Devas.

IOW,

360 Human years = 1 Day of the Devas

 

So . . . by extention: 1 Million-Billion-Trillion Kalpas squared = the time it takes for Krishna to Blink his eye.

 

Keep waiting around --like the 'gentleman' you are.

 

No magic is forthcoming from heaven . . . or any such place. --- but you're arse gives forth fertiliser like there's no tomorrow. You are a fountain head of cheers, no doubt.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - -

You know that our ancestors have already wrangled with these topics and have passed down the authorised conclusions.

 

Iskcon, among its other bonefide sampradayas has already fulfilled it's mission to transfer the 'DATA' to us devotees --the caravan moves on . . . and the Gypsies stop and set up camps along the route . . .

[sant]

 

Clearly Rama & Krishna are yet to show real interest in our world and our problems. Does not matter if you are a devotee or not - you need the right skills to land a job and the right care to treat an ailment. No magic is forthcoming from Vaikunta or Goloka or any such place.

 

 

Clearly your statements show that you have been very angry with god or something like that but anyway why do you keep blaming god and as for vishnu he is everywhere you following shankacharya donnt know that seems strange as for working i am already wasting enough time on eating sleeping etc thanks for your concern but god will take care.

 

 

With due respect, you should seriously work on improving your english for I said no such thing. This is just my opinion - but I believe time spent on improving your lingual skills is likely to benefit you more than time spent on Rama and Krishna

 

i dont know why you talk like that and since you follow shankaracharya why should you talk this nonsense.As for my english i i am sorry if you dont understand me as my writing skills or typing skills may not be very good its because i dont type much on the comoputer.