Did Krishna advocate mass murder?

[Guest manmohan singh]

Hare Krishna

 

I am learning, so please don't be offended by my questions. I'd like to know why Krishna advocated mass murder in the gita. Arjuna was trying to do the right thing by staying away from war, but Krishna forced him to murder his friends and family. How can gita be considered spiritual, then?

 

Again, I am only asking some straight questions so as to learn. Hope someone can help.

 

Regards,

MS

[raghu]

 

Hare Krishna

 

I am learning, so please don't be offended by my questions. I'd like to know why Krishna advocated mass murder in the gita.

 

Soldiers fight and expect to risk dying. Fighting with voluntary combatants is not "mass murder."

 

 

Arjuna was trying to do the right thing by staying away from war, but Krishna forced him to murder his friends and family. How can gita be considered spiritual, then?

 

Again, I am only asking some straight questions so as to learn. Hope someone can help.

 

Regards,

MS

 

Why don't you try reading the entire Gita? Better yet, read the Mahabharata including all of the murderous plots of Duryodhana who had then usurped the throne. Then explain why a conspirer who encouraged murder and rape should have remained on the throne on the pretext that the Pandavas should not have fought with him due to familial relationship.

 

When you realize how absurd that argument is, you will have your answer.

 

regards,

 

Raghu

[Guest manmohan singh]

 

Why don't you try reading the entire Gita? Better yet, read the Mahabharata including all of the murderous plots of Duryodhana who had then usurped the throne. Then explain why a conspirer who encouraged murder and rape should have remained on the throne on the pretext that the Pandavas should not have fought with him due to familial relationship.

 

 

 

Forgive and forget is the basis of all religions. Jesus forgave the people who were crucifying him. But Krishna wanted to have revenge and ordered Arjuna to slaughter people. Isn't this a bit worrying?

[chandu_69]

 

Forgive and forget is the basis of all religions. Jesus forgave the people who were crucifying him.

The context of jesus is entirely different .Dont mix up things.

 

 

But Krishna wanted to have revenge and ordered Arjuna to slaughter people. Isn't this a bit worrying?

Revenge?. Who gave you this idea of revenge?.

The fighting is for Dharma not revenge.Krishna didn't say go and kill people because they don't worship me.

 

As raghu pointed out, the war is fought in battle field with Willing combatants.

 

Civilians are left untouched.That is how Dharmic wars are fought.The concept of Booty/ spoils of war in which civilians are looted and their women folk are enslaved is the teaching of abrahamic religions.

[chandu_69]

 

Forgive and forget is the basis of all religions.

 

Name a religion that says unbelievers are not to be killed or not to be punished for eternity in hell except hinduism.

[raghu]

 

Forgive and forget is the basis of all religions.

 

That is merely your opinion. Some behaviors are so evil that to simply forget them means to allow them to continue.

 

 

Jesus forgave the people who were crucifying him.

 

 

1) Jesus was not a Hindu. You cannot extrapolate correct views of Hindu dharma from Jesus.

 

2) The mythological Jesus may indeed have "forgiven" his tormentors, but we have no idea what the historic Jesus did. The person of Jesus has been so extensively worked over by centuries of opportunistic Christian scholars that we really do not know much about the real Jesus and his teachings.

 

 

But Krishna wanted to have revenge

 

 

No He didn't. Where did you read this? Please provide exact quotes in Sanskrit, chapter and verse.

 

 

and ordered Arjuna to slaughter people.

 

No, He directed Arjuna to fight in the war to free the kingdom from the rulership of a rapist and murderer.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding why a Christian would object to a battle fought between soldiers with the purpose of removing a murderer from the throne. Especially since Christians in general have no problem glossing over all of the violence their religion historically perpetrated against innocent people (including women and children) in the name of Inquisitions, Crusades, etc.

 

 

Isn't this a bit worrying?

 

I'm not worried about the actual facts of the Mahabharata war. What worries me more is this trend of Christians coming here in the guise of "seekers" and posting thinly veiled criticisms of Hinduism disguised as questions. If you at least knew what you were talking about, it might be possible to actually have an intelligent conversation with you. But since you insist on misrepresenting the facts (i.e. your carefully chosen description of the battle as a "slaughter"), one can only conclude that you are incapable of exerting even a modicum of intellectual honesty.

 

Does your religion not teach you that lying is a sin?

[hindustani]

Go here and perhaps our friend Mr.Manmohan singh will find his answer.

[raghu]

Intolerance in the Bible

He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.--John 3:36

 

Genesis

 

1. God gives Abraham and his descendants all of the land of Canaan "forever". This promise is still used to justify the unending battles over the land in the Middle East. 13:14-15, 17:8
   
2. An uncircumcised boy is to be abandoned by his parents and community. 17:14
   
3. God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family.19:24
   
4. Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26
   
5. Abraham makes his servant swear that he won't let Isaac marry a Canaanite. 24:3
   
6. Isaac tells Jacob not to marry a Canaanite. 28:1
   
7. Jacob's sons can't stand the idea of their sister marrying someone who is uncircumcised. 34:14
   
8. "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7
   
9. After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School. 38:8-10
   
10. After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24

Exodus

 

1. God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised. 4:24-26
   
2. God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." 11:7
   
3. After God has sufficiently hardened the Pharaoh's heart, he kills all the firstborn Egyptian children. When he was finished "there was not a house where there was not one dead." 12:29
   
4. No stranger, foreigner, or uncircumcised person can eat the Passover. 12:43, 45, 48
   
5. If you do what God says, he won't send his diseases on you (like he did to the Egyptians). But otherwise.... 15:26
   
6. When the people complain to Moses, he tells them they aren't complaining about him, but about God, making them apostates and heretics, and therefore deserve severe punishment. Religious leaders have used this tactic ever since. 16:8
   
7. Joshua, with God's approval, kills the Amalekites "with the edge of the sword." 17:13
   
8. The Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." 17:14
   
9. "The Lord has sworn [God swears!] that the Lord will have war with Amalek from generation to generation." 17:16
   
10. God favors Israelites "above all people." 19:5
    
11. The first commandment ("Thou shalt have no other gods before me.") condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. 20:3
    
12. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18
    
13. "He who sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed." If this commandment is obeyed, then the four billion people who do not believe in the biblical god must be killed. 22:20
    
14. Don't even mention the names of the other gods. 23:13
    
15. Do not allow others to worship a different god. Conquer them and destroy their religious property. 23:24
    
16. God promises to "send his fear before the Israelites" and to kill everyone that they encounter when they enter the promised land. 23:27
    
17. Stay away from those who worship a different god. 23:32
    
18. Don't let any strangers attend your animal sacrifices. 29:33
    
19. Whoever puts holy oil on a stranger shall be "cut off from his people." 30:33
    
20. Those who break the Sabbath are to be executed. 31:14
    
21. Moses burned the golden calf, ground it into powder, and then forced it down the throats of all the people. 32:20
    
22. God orders the sons of Levi (Moses, Aaron, and the other members of their tribe that were "on the Lord's side") to kill "every man his neighbor.... And there fell of the people that day about 3000 men." 32:27-28
    
23. "Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." 32:33
    
24. God drives out the pagan tribes and commands the Israelites to destroy their altars and places of worship. 34:11-14
    
25. God, "whose name is Jealous", will not tolerate the worship of any other god. 34:14
    
26. Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." 35:2-3

[sambya]

God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised.

ha ha ha !! nice one .

[Guest manmohan singh]

 

Intolerance in the Bible

He that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.--

 

 

Let the bible be intolerant. How is that relevant to the topic? If someone asks a question on Krishna, you quote bible! Does that mean you can't answer questions? If bible is evil, does that necessarily mean gita, which advocates mass murder, is all good?

[Guest manmohan singh]

 

That is merely your opinion. Some behaviors are so evil that to simply forget them means to allow them to continue.

 

And this is your opinion. So when it comes to opinions, there's no truth, is there? Which means, you admit gita has no truth?

 

 

No, He directed Arjuna to fight in the war to free the kingdom from the rulership of a rapist and murderer.

 

This sounds like what Bush said before Iraq war: we want to free the Iraqi people from a rapist and murderer. And what did he do? He sent his men to rape and murder Iraqis instead!

 

 

I'm having a hard time understanding why a Christian would object to a battle fought between soldiers with the purpose of removing a murderer from the throne. Especially since Christians in general have no problem glossing over all of the violence their religion historically perpetrated against innocent people (including women and children) in the name of Inquisitions, Crusades, etc.

 

I am not christian. Can't you tell from my name? Singh is King!

[chandu_69]

 

Let the bible be intolerant. How is that relevant to the topic? If someone asks a question on Krishna, you quote bible! Does that mean you can't answer questions? If bible is evil, does that necessarily mean gita, which advocates mass murder, is all good?

 

It is you who raised the topic of Jesus comparing with krishna.Now you are worried when raghu starts quoting bible.

 

Once again your puny missionary brain cannot read answers before repeating same nonsense.Me and raghu answered you telling that the war is fought in battle field between two armies.

 

There is no mass murder in gita.Period.Show the evidence if you have any.

[chandu_69]

 

Let the bible be intolerant. How is that relevant to the topic?

 

It is relevant because it is you who made the stupid statement

 

 

Forgive and forget is the basis of all religions

Here is a statement from another abrahamic religion on forgive and forget

 

Quran 9:29:Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

 

Btw, recently the sikhs in taliban strong holds of pakistan were forced to pay jizya tax.

[Kali_Upasaka]

 

Hare Krishna

 

I am learning, so please don't be offended by my questions. I'd like to know why Krishna advocated mass murder in the gita. Arjuna was trying to do the right thing by staying away from war, but Krishna forced him to murder his friends and family. How can gita be considered spiritual, then?

 

Again, I am only asking some straight questions so as to learn. Hope someone can help.

 

Regards,

MS

1. Thee was no murder. The Kouravas were killed in battle.

 

2. To get the right answer to your question, you have to understand the concept of Dharma in Hinduism. Please google for it. There are excellent articles about what consitutes Dharma.

 

3. You can not judge an incident by the values of today. Kings waged wars, occupied land, killed and enslaved people. We would call it Genocide now.

 

4. The most important aspect is that this story is only a preliminary to the Gita. To place in the correct context. This has nothing to do with the contents of the Gita.

 

There has been a opinion that Bagavad Gita is an interpolation in the Mahabharata. A spiritual text interpolated in a popular Itihasa. Lots of arguments for and against this theory.

 

The text had to be introduced somewhere. This was considered the best place because Krishna is telling Arjuna about his Dharma.

 

Gita is an exposition of the truths revealed in the Upanishads.

 

5. Please read up about Dharma as defined in Hinduism. It does take some reading. Dharma of a Warrior as Arjuna was one.

 

6. And then come back to Bagavad Gita.

 

This is an often asked question. Of course not in such terms. May be someone has written in detail about it. I will let you know if I locate an article.

[chandu_69]

 

I am not christian. Can't you tell from my name? Singh is King!

 

That is correct, manmohansingh aka subramanian swamy.The mention of Jesus is just to derail us.I understood this from your postings in world review thread.

[chandu_69]

Quran:008.067:"It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he had made a great slaughter in the land....

 

Story of Bani Quraiza jews:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280:

 

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:...

 

Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said,

"I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah

."

 

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38: Number 4390:

 

Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:

 

I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us,

and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed

. I was among those who had not grown hair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is how a mass murder looks like.

 

 

 

[lokeshvara]

As others have mentioned there is no mass murder or genocide in the Gita. All those on the field of Kurusetra were kshatriyas, warriors. It was their duty to fight, they agreed to fight by showing up. Not to mention this was a necessary war. The war of the Mahabharata prevented an even bigger war. It was necessary to reestablish goodness, to free a people from greedy and murderious rulers. The Pandavas were cheated out of their rightful claim first by a fixed dice game then when they finished the period of banishment they were not given back their rightful claim as was agreed upon. It wasn't revenge that motivated Krishna, he knew the nature of the Kauravas and if they were allowed to continue ruling, it would be incredibly destructive. More people would suffer and die, most innocent, if the Kauravas remained in power.

 

Krishna was saving the material world by teaching Arjuna his duty and he saved our spiritual selves by teaching Arjuna yoga.

 

Hari Om!

[raghu]

 

And this is your opinion. So when it comes to opinions, there's no truth, is there? Which means, you admit gita has no truth?

 

Singh, or whatever your real name is. Doesn't your religion teach you that lying is a sin? Why in the name of missionary work do you misrepresent the Gita and then go on to misrepresent the statements of those who try to correct you?

 

Does it have anything to do with the fact that Christianity is an inconsistent, unintelligible, hodge podge of ideas masquerading as a religion, and that the only way any intelligent person will give it any consideration is only if real religion is discredited first?

 

Are you planning to explain why the Biblical god plays racial favorites, and why he conspires to murder people for little things like (a) not being circumcised, (b) being Egyptian, and © having different religious beliefs?

[raghu]

 

3. You can not judge an incident by the values of today. Kings waged wars, occupied land, killed and enslaved people. We would call it Genocide now.

 

et tu brute?

 

The Kings of the Mahabharata war did not enslave people. Please get your facts straight before correcting the Jesus groupie.

 

 

There has been a opinion that Bagavad Gita is an interpolation in the Mahabharata. A spiritual text interpolated in a popular Itihasa. Lots of arguments for and against this theory.

 

This is bunk. Let's keep the discussion focused on what is likely.

 

 

This is an often asked question. Of course not in such terms. May be someone has written in detail about it. I will let you know if I locate an article.

 

Perhaps you have not grasped this yet, but Mr. "Singh" is not interested in any answers. His questions are deliberately worded so as to evoke anger and scorn. No matter what you say, he will twist it around and make it sound like his original hypothesis still holds. Imagine a guy asking questions and covering his ears while singing, "LaLaLaLaLa!" at the top of his voice - he is another Christian born-again type who thinks he has found the answers in the Bible and can only explain away the existence of superior and more intelligent belief systems if he denounces them.

[thehat]

man Singh, you got your ass handed to you in this thread! Just goes to show, you can't defame Krsna - He'll some way or another put the shame on you if you're ill minded.

 

And FYI, actually noonedied in that battle. All the soldiers got liberation - only their bodies were finished. The soul is eternal you see. So all the soldiers, whether demoniac or good received liberation. God is so merciful you know..

[ranjeetmore]

 

Let the bible be intolerant. How is that relevant to the topic? If someone asks a question on Krishna, you quote bible! Does that mean you can't answer questions? If bible is evil, does that necessarily mean gita, which advocates mass murder, is all good?

 

 

 

THE GOVERNMENT RESERVES THE RIGHT TO FIRE AT PEOPLE THROUGH THE AGENCY OF THE POLICE.

 

NOW,THE POLICE MAY BE ASKED,"WHY DID YOU KILL 20 PEOPLE ?"

 

THE POLICE REPLIES,"iF WE HADN'T KILLED 20 PEOPLE,200 PEOPLE WOULD'VE DIED."

 

JUDGE:" REALLY ?"

POLICE:"YEAH.THOSE 20 WERE CULPRITS."

 

JUDGE:"FINE FINE...WHICH RASCAL FILED A CASE AGAINST THE POLICE ??"

 

***

 

tHE dharma...i.e. the four dharmas : Brahman,Ksatriya,Vaisya and Sudra and the four Ashrams: Brahmcharya,Grhasta,Vanaprastha and sannyasa are THE LORD's INGENIOUS IDEA TO KEEP THE UNIVERSE FUNCTIONING.

 

It is not a Joke.

 

If you want the Universe to function,you follow these varnas and ahrams.Period.

 

Now,according to Ksatriya dharma,the impious(appropriately impious.not the ones who lie to the parents.) are to be killed.

 

There are two reasons.

 

1)so that they cause no more murder,impiety.

 

AND

 

2) Their chances of incurring more sin upon themselves(by murdering others,etc.) is curbed.

 

Once a cold blooded killer.Always a cold blooded killer.

 

FOR YOU,POINT NO. 2 IS MOST IMPORTANT.

 

 

So God,Who is impartial and merely hands out the reactions of the individual ,was Present,in this Case,Personally.There is hardly anything confusing or ghastly in this.It's a dharmayuddh,fought not so that those who do not worship Sri Krsna could be killed (Bhisma was a Krsna Bhakta.),but so that the impious are killed.

[Amlesh]

Even before the war started Krishna went with the "Shanti Prastav".. peace treaties.

But the Ego of Duryodhana did not let him even hear the Lord, forget about considering it.

The war and the deaths surrounding that.. brings forth the eternal question where only He, the Lord has the answer, we benefited. As Ranjeet brought forward the concept of Varna.. it is the duty of Ksatriyas to protect Dharma.. even at the cost of one's life.

But first of all, one need to side truth.. implying on the first instance, one need to know Truth.

And who knows it better that the "Eternal Flute Player".

[Veno]

Krishna was asking Arjuna to do his divine duty, or service. Everybody has a duty to perform, the act itself whether it is benign or fierce is of no relevance... it is that one is doing the service they are born to do in order to serve the Divine. A kshatriya's role is to fight and uphold the dharma. If it involves killing those who are fighting on the wrong side, then that is the duty. It is only the material body being killed, it is not the soul. Their souls were getting liberated as was Arjuna's for doing his duty.

[primate]

Maybe the question should be whether or not there is any choice in this world. Are we freely acting individuals, or just conscious spectators of all complex prearranged events unfolding. The principle of Karma seems to indicate the latter. And we are not our body, so we really cannot act. Even science must admit that causality (action reaction like dynamics) ultimately doesn’t exist at the most fundamental (quantum) level of reality, and therefore it is unreasonable to assume that causality exists at the manifest macroscopic level of reality. Apparently, only consciousness exists.

 

In this perspective, once the mechanism underlying reality was set in motion, there has been no way to change its evolution. We cannot prevent earthquakes or other natural disasters form happening. Likewise, we cannot prevent wars or other mass killings. The scriptures provide metaphorical tales, that seem to teach us to simply accept this fact. Arjuna didn’t have a choice. This mass killing was inevitably going to happen, driven by some collective Karmic mechanism. Krishna simply told Arjuna to accept it.

 

The fact that the Bible (old testament) calls for religious war against the infidels, is just a part of the perfect order of reality, in which everything is in tune and exactly as it should be. Future religious wars may be predestined to happen. We are just consciously experiencing the whole show. Even the process of becoming aware of this, or becoming consciously enlightened e.g., through religious practice or insight, must be predestined per individual as a part of this universal order. It will not change anything..

[Kulapavana]

First you say:

 

"Forgive and forget is the basis of all religions. Jesus forgave the people who were crucifying him. But Krishna wanted to have revenge and ordered Arjuna to slaughter people. Isn't this a bit worrying?"

 

and when someone shows you some nasty quotes from the Bible you change the tone and say:

 

<!-- / message -->

Let the bible be intolerant. How is that relevant to the topic? If someone asks a question on Krishna, you quote bible! Does that mean you can't answer questions? If bible is evil, does that necessarily mean gita, which advocates mass murder, is all good?

 

Why do you use the words "mass murder" in the context of war, where all the combatants are willing and able to fight? Are you just another crusader for your own religion?

 

 

Ultimately God kills everyone. He is death personified and all destroying time. Deal with it.