(for Vaishnavas) Is Shiva God?

[raghu]

This is from the siddha-pranali thread. As a matter of good net-etiquette, I did not want to cause that thread to go off on a tangent, so I started a new one.

 

 

Since nobody can become Shiva, he is not a demigod. Sada-shiva is Godhead, Maha Vishnu, from whom individual Rudras emanate, but they are all purnam, or complete, manifestations. Shiva is not Godhead contaminated by ignorance, just like Vishnu is not Godhead contaminated by goodness.

 

Prabhupada considered believers in the Old Testament god to be Vaishnavas, but he was calling believers of Lord Shiva: 'demigod worshippers'. For me, that makes very little sense and does not represent the rest of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

Now my question is this - and this is primarily for Vaishnavas, since Advaitins and Neo-Advaitins may not really care one way or another. If you say Shiva is God, and that he is the same as Vishnu, they why object to Shaivism? Why object to the idea that one can worship Shiva for liberation?

 

In this regard, Gaudiya Vaishnavism seems far less like pure Vaishnavism compared to previous traditions. But then again, I have also read repeated references to Shiva as "demigod" in the iskcon books, which makes the GV position on Shiva somewhat inconsistent.

[sant]

Prabhupada ji refers to shiva as demigod as he is subserviant to vishnu as per vaishnavites.

But he is still a part of the trinity and in narada purana and bhagwad it is written shiva brahma and vishnu all should be regarded as same.

He iss god for vaishnavs also as they are lord of jivas.

But the fact that he is second to vishnu that is why shiva is mentioned as demigod as there cannot be two gods and that makes hinduism polytheism.As for devi she is half of shiva therefore she is of equal position to shiva.

In many places there is also written that shiva should not be compared to vishnu as he is second to him.

If you ever read the shaiv philosophy param shiva (brahman) is mentioned to be the cause of everything. thus he is same as brahman.

You take it as shiva and devi are manifestations of brahman,

Only vishnu is brahman as told by all jagadgurus including shankaracharya.

[sant]

 

If you say Shiva is God, and that he is the same as Vishnu, they why object to Shaivism

 

The shaivist beleive the param shiva which is same as brahman as everything.The shiva (brahman) desires to create therefore the world is created.Everyone shiva,param shiva and the self are equal and one as according to them.So it is advait philosophy only brahman is referred to shiva.The shakt is also the same only they call the brahman as maa.

[sant]

Shiva considering him as god is no problem as he has the qualities of ishvara

Shiva to be considered as demigod is also no wrong as he is second to vishnu.

[raghu]

So in other words, what you are telling me is that GV's don't object to people worshipping Shiva for liberation. They only object to worshipping Shiva in the context of Advaita?

[sant]

 

So in other words, what you are telling me is that GV's don't object to people worshipping Shiva for liberation. They only object to worshipping Shiva in the context of Advaita?

 

Prabuphadji never specially said shakt or shaiv as ive never read it in any of his books as i can remember now,he said mayavad.

So you can guess the answer.

if you ask me then yes.

and as for liberation it has been clearly said bhaja govindam.

But shiva can also grant liberation no doubt.

[raghu]

Sant, how can Shiva be "ishvara" and "demigod." This is inconsistent. Which is it?

 

The Bhagavatam explains that Shiva became deluded by Lord's Mohini incarnation. If even Shiva can fall under the influence of maya, that how can he give liberation?

[Ganeshprasad]

 

Now my question is this - and this is primarily for Vaishnavas, since Advaitins and Neo-Advaitins may not really care one way or another. If you say Shiva is God, and that he is the same as Vishnu, they why object to Shaivism? Why object to the idea that one can worship Shiva for liberation?

 

 

Why indeed when Bhagvat Puran endorse it.

 

 

SB 4.6/45 O most auspicious lord, you have ordained the heavenly planets, the spiritual Vaikuntha planets and the impersonal Brahman sphere as the respective destinations of the performers of auspicious activities. Similarly, for others, who are miscreants, you have destined different kinds of hells which are horrible and ghastly. Yet sometimes it is found that their destinations are just the opposite. It is very difficult to ascertain the cause of this.

 

 

SB 8.7.20: The devas observed Lord Siva sitting on the summit of kailasa Hill with his wife, Bhavani, for the auspicious development of the three worlds. He was being worshiped by great saintly persons desiring liberation. The devas offered him their obeisance’s and prayers with great respect.

 

ekadā deva-yātrāyāḿ

gopālā jāta-kautukāḥ

anobhir anaḍud-yuktaiḥ

prayayus te 'mbikā-vanam ( SB 10.34.1)

 

Meaning:

One day Gopala along with his mates, eager to take a trip to worship Lord Śiva, travelled by bullock carts to the Ambikā forest ( SB 10.34.1)

 

 

tatra snātvā sarasvatyāḿ

devaḿ paśu-patiḿ vibhum

ānarcur arhaṇair bhaktyā

devīḿ ca ṇṛpate 'mbikām ( SB 10.34.2)

 

After arriving there, Krsna along with his mates bathed in the Sarasvatī River and then devotedly worshiped with various paraphernalia the All powerful and all pervading Godhead Lord Paśupati [devaḿ paśu-patiḿ vibhum] and his consort, goddess Ambikā. ( SB 10.34.2)

 

So Lord Krishna had no problem why should you?

 

Tulsidas Goswami had no problem, let me guess he might fall in your classification as Neo- Hindu.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[sant]

 

The Bhagavatam explains that Shiva became deluded by Lord's Mohini incarnation. If even Shiva can fall under the influence of maya, that how can he give liberation?

 

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yes so what that mohini was also krishna shiva fell for krishna only.

And shiva will fall for krishna's maya because he is subservient to krishna.

But he is lord of jivas.Have a read at brahma samhita youll understand.

In the bhagwat it is said that one should consider vishnu and shiva the same otherwise there wont be peace in a persons mind.

It has been mentioned in many places where shiva has granted liberation.

So that is why i have said it.

But he works under the will of krishna.

[Kulapavana]

 

If you say Shiva is God, and that he is the same as Vishnu, they why object to Shaivism? Why object to the idea that one can worship Shiva for liberation?

 

In this regard, Gaudiya Vaishnavism seems far less like pure Vaishnavism compared to previous traditions. But then again, I have also read repeated references to Shiva as "demigod" in the iskcon books, which makes the GV position on Shiva somewhat inconsistent.

 

I have no quarrel with Shiva bhaktas or true Advaitins. They are far closer to me than believers in the Abrahamic religions... and of course Shiva can grant liberation, as he is Muktinath.

 

Gaudiyas are often overly emotional and make emphatic proclamations that have little to do with vedanta. Their conflict with Shivaites and Shaktas is mostly social and practical, not siddhantic.

[sant]

 

have no quarrel with Shiva bhaktas or true Advaitins. They are far closer to me than believers in the Abrahamic religions... and of course Shiva can grant liberation, as he is Muktinath.

 

Why are you after abrahamic religion.

Why are you against gaudiyas or whom are you against guadiyas or against the philosophy.I think you are not liking the words and ways of gaudiyas around you.If you ever come to india ill show you real vaishnavs.

IT is because people go to the extreme and start unnessary critisizing that problem arises.

You have no quarrel with shiv bhaktas but you certainly are quarelling with gaudiyas.

Dont mind sir but you have got stuck up in non vedik siddha pranali and tanric texts thats why you are facing problems.

You are too into iskcon gurus or gaudiya gurus.

Only iskcon are not vaishnavs get that straight.

[Kulapavana]

 

Why are you after abrahamic religion.

Why are you against gaudiyas or whom are you against guadiyas or against the philosophy.I think you are not liking the words and ways of gaudiyas around you.If you ever come to india ill show you real vaishnavs.

IT is because people go to the extreme and start unnessary critisizing that problem arises.

You have no quarrel with shiv bhaktas but you certainly are quarelling with gaudiyas.

Dont mind sir but you have got stuck up in non vedik siddha pranali and tanric texts thats why you are facing problems.

You are too into iskcon gurus or gaudiya gurus.

Only iskcon are not vaishnavs get that straight.

 

1. abrahamic religions are the main cause of conflicts in the world and I have little sentiment for them

2. I'm not against Gaudiyas, but it does not mean Gaudiyas are always right. I consider myself an aspiring Gaudiya, and I do realize that there are many, many great Vaishnavas in India besides Gaudiyas.

3. My problems are my business, so are my gurus.

4. ISkcon members are a diverse group - some are just pretenders, but others are nice Vaishnavas - it is a mistake to lump them all into one category. How would you feel if i said that Indians are cheaters, because I ran into several Indian crooks?

[sant]

JAYA SHRI VISHNU

Ok sorry then if you think your right here then suit yourself.

i said it as i regarded you someone close but you do as you like.

JAI SIYA RAM

[Kulapavana]

 

JAYA SHRI VISHNU

Ok sorry then if you think your right here then suit yourself.

i said it as i regarded you someone close but you do as you like.

JAI SIYA RAM

 

I do not think 'I am right'. This is how I see things today. It works for me and I am happy with the way it answers my questions.

[ranjeetmore]

 

This is from the siddha-pranali thread. As a matter of good net-etiquette, I did not want to cause that thread to go off on a tangent, so I started a new one.

 

 

 

Now my question is this - and this is primarily for Vaishnavas, since Advaitins and Neo-Advaitins may not really care one way or another. If you say Shiva is God, and that he is the same as Vishnu, they why object to Shaivism? Why object to the idea that one can worship Shiva for liberation?

 

In this regard, Gaudiya Vaishnavism seems far less like pure Vaishnavism compared to previous traditions. But then again, I have also read repeated references to Shiva as "demigod" in the iskcon books, which makes the GV position on Shiva somewhat inconsistent.

 

 

 

Shaiva philosophy teaches nonsense.There is no personal form of God according to them...

"shiva is jeeva and jeeva is shiva."

 

 

***

 

Sadashiva is manifestation of Govinda in accordance with His desire to serve Himself.That's why we consider Shiva as Greatest Vaishnava.

 

In gaudiya Vaishnavism...Sadashiva appears as one of the Panca tattva.

 

Lord Visnu,the Supreme Lord of Vaikuntha displays full opulence and is master of the Spiritual world...whereas Sadashiva is form of God Who is engaged in serving Sri Krsna,right there in the spiritual world...

[guliaditya]

Again it is my humble request not to indulge in all these silly topics.

No one can gain anything out of it.

Rather discuss on Bhakta's charitra from which we all can learn something...

Please......

 

Pranaam

 

Aditya

[hindustani]

Each time when this topic came in forum and each time when someone wrote Shiva as a demigod,he realised his mistake in super natural ways!!

There are proofs so carry on if you have guts.

And yes let me clarify that this punishment will be by your own God and not from God Shiva as he is a param parmatma.Never attempt to burn your karmas and this I shouted many times in this forum but ...... invain.I cannot stop destiny.

[raghu]

Gentlemen,

 

Thank you for the replies. However, let me again state that I am specifically interested in the Gaudiya Vaishnava conception of Shiva. I apologize that the title of the thread did not make that clear.

 

Sonic Yogi - as you yourself have chided me for taking anything you say about Gaudiya Vaishnavism seriously, may I please request you to refrain from commenting on this thread. Again, my question is in regards to the Gaudiya Vaishnava conception of Shiva, and since you are by your own admission not a Gaudiya, I request you yield the thread to those more qualified than you to speak.

 

Sant - I suspect English may not be your first language, and that is fine. But it would really help me to understand what you are saying if you could run your comments through a grammar checker before posting. I'm sorry, but I just have a hard time understanding you.

 

Now, for Kula and other Gaudiyas, let me clarify my doubts - and I apologize if I am making you reiterate anything you have already said.

 

Vaishnavism is distinguished by its belief in Vishnu as the Supreme Deity, in contrast to other deities who are regarded as subordinate entities. In just about all other Vaishnava traditions with which I am familiar, Shiva is NOT equated to Vishnu, and worship of Shiva, while certainly auspicious in its own way, is NOT regarded as equal in benefits to the worship of Vishnu.

 

Now in regards to Shiva's supremacy or lack thereof vis-a-vis Vishnu, the problem that occurs in considering Shiva to be just another form of Vishnu is that the shAstras treat them as two different entities. This is so regardless of whether you are reading shruti or smriti, sAttvik vs tAmasic purAnas, etc. Hence, it seems that one must necessarily choose one or the other viewpoint - either Vishnu is supreme and the Shaivite verses are sectarian interpolation, or vice-versa. They can't both be supreme, because they are two different deities.

 

The same logic is also used to establish the difference between jiva and brahman. We cannot simply gloss over the stated differences between Vishnu and Shiva, for then by the same logic we could also gloss over the differences between jiva and brahman and come to the conclusion of mayavada, which I am sure no one wants. My point here is that there must be consistency in the principle of interpretation.

 

The evidence from the Bhagavata is interesting. On one hand Brahma addresses Shiva with adjectives that reference the Supreme Lord. Yet on the other hand, the same Bhagavata teaches us that Shiva came under the delusion of maya when confronted with Lord's Mohini-murthi. These two pramAnas are contradictory. He cannot be the supreme Lord and yet fall victim to maya. Strictly speaking according to Vedantic principles, one would be forced to accept only that which is consistent with shruti.

 

If you say supreme Lord can come under illusion, then by the same logic you must accept the Advaitin's logic when he says the same about jiva being brahman under illusion, etc. If it is unacceptable to you that jiva can be the result of brahman coming under illusion, then by the same logic you cannot argue that Shiva is Vishnu coming under illusion. The point is that it is mayavada either way!

 

I am trying to determine if there is a clear and consistent way to understand Shiva's position in the Gaudiya worldview without making obvious errors in scriptural interpretation. Perhaps there is, and perhaps there is not, but what I have seen so far leads me to believe that the Gaudiyas have endorsed contradictory viewpoints regarding Shiva, in contrast to their viewpoint about all other devatas which is that they are clearly mortals. Again, I request knowledgeable GVs to comment with specific references to pUrvAchAryas' writings on the subject.

 

regards,

 

Raghu

[ranjeetmore]

 

Gentlemen,

 

 

 

Now in regards to Shiva's supremacy or lack thereof vis-a-vis Vishnu, the problem that occurs in considering Shiva to be just another form of Vishnu is that the shAstras treat them as two different entities. This is so regardless of whether you are reading shruti or smriti, sAttvik vs tAmasic purAnas, etc. Hence, it seems that one must necessarily choose one or the other viewpoint - either Vishnu is supreme and the Shaivite verses are sectarian interpolation, or vice-versa. They can't both be supreme, because they are two different deities.

 

 

 

 

They are two different dieties yes.

But Sadashiva is nondifferent from Sri Visnu.

 

Brahma Vaivarta Purana (Prakriti Khanda 2.56.61)

svapne jagarane sasvath Krsna dhyana ratah Sivah

yatha Krsnas tatha sambhur na bhedo madhavesayoh

"Sleeping or awake, Siva is constantly absorbed in meditation on Sri Krsna. As is Sri

Krsna, so is Sambhu; there is no difference between Madhava and Isa."

 

 

 

Skanda Upanishad (8-9.)

“I bow to Siva of the form of Visnu and Visnu who is Siva; Visnu is Siva’s heart and

Siva, Visnu’s. Just as Visnu is full of Siva, so is Siva full of Visnu. As I see no

difference, I am well all my life.”

 

 

Sadashiva is visnu tattva...according to the gaudiyas atleast.

 

 

The evidence from the Bhagavata is interesting. On one hand Brahma addresses Shiva with adjectives that reference the Supreme Lord. Yet on the other hand, the same Bhagavata teaches us that Shiva came under the delusion of maya when confronted with Lord's Mohini-murthi. These two pramAnas are contradictory. He cannot be the supreme Lord and yet fall victim to maya. Strictly speaking according to Vedantic principles, one would be forced to accept only that which is consistent with shruti.

 

 

 

[4.6.49]

bhavams tu pumsah paramasya mayaya

durantayasprsta-matih samasta-drk

taya hatatmasv anukarma-cetahsv

anugraham kartum iharhasi prabho

 

“My dear Lord(Sadashiva), you are never bewildered by the formidable influence of the illusory

energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore you are omniscient and

should be merciful and compassionate toward those who are bewildered by the

same illusory energy and are very much attached to fruitive activities.”

 

 

Mohini avatar was Lord Visnu Himself.Her body was ALL SPIRITUAL.Her dealings were all spiritual.

Now Sadashiva Who burnt kaamdeva is hardly the one Who becomes lusty.

He was attracted to Mohini becoz She was all attractive Lord Visnu.

 

This is dealings of yogamaya...not maya.

 

 

I can provide more evidence from bhagavtam...but it will only disturb you...I'd rather you not start questioning the authority of Bhagavatam.

 

 

I am trying to determine if there is a clear and consistent way to understand Shiva's position in the Gaudiya worldview without making obvious errors in scriptural interpretation. Perhaps there is, and perhaps there is not, but what I have seen so far leads me to believe that the Gaudiyas have endorsed contradictory viewpoints regarding Shiva, in contrast to their viewpoint about all other devatas which is that they are clearly mortals. Again, I request knowledgeable GVs to comment with specific references to pUrvAchAryas' writings on the subject.

 

regards,

 

Raghu

 

 

there is A CLEAR CONSISTENT WAY.

 

Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura is perhaps one of the most exalted in Gaudiya line.

 

"In different kalpas,sometimes very elevated jivas or sometimes LOrd Visnu Himself take up Lord Shiva's position.But the One known as Sadashiva is beyond the reach of the modes of material nature or gunas;he is the vilasa expansion of the supreme lord,Visnu.He is also the fountainhead of Lord Shiva,one of the guna avataras.Therefore,Sadashiva is superior to brahma,equal to Lord Visnu,superior to and separate from the Jeevas,who are under the three gunas."

 

 

further,"consciousness is of two types:1) Supreme Independent consciousness and 2) dependent consciousness/Jeeva.The supreme concsiousness is further divided:a) that which is beyond maya's jurisdiction and b)that which VOLUNTARILY accepts the influence of maya for the carrying out of material affairs.Lord Narayana belongs to the first category(a) and Siva to the second(b)(not sadashiva)."

 

 

"Becoz both sadashiva and Lord Visnu embody the same supreme consciousness,They are non-different.They reside simultaneously on dual planes of transcendence and material nature "

 

 

"But the hari bhakti vliasa(1.73) states: If a person after considering all these facts equates Lord Visnu with Brahma or Siva,he is condemned to hell."

Visvanatha Chakravarti thakura further puts light on this contradictory situation,""The basis of this scriptural injunction is that brahma is generally a jivatma,but shiva also is sometimes a jivatma.People who have not researched deeply into this end up forming their own speculative theories "Lord Visnu is God and not Lord Shiva." or "Lord Shiva is the supreme not Sri Visnu." Polemics leads to offences.The real qualitative nondifference of Shiva and Visnu is to be understood.

[hindustani]

 

Thank you for the replies. However, let me again state that I am specifically interested in the Gaudiya Vaishnava conception of Shiva. I apologize that the title of the thread did not make that clear.

I was reading your posts in Shankara's work and your ideas there tells a different story.Just my observation.

[Veno]

the gaudiya vaishnava conception of shiva depends on the individual and is not limited to the written word

 

*in the gita krsna says he is supreme, and krsna says he is OM

 

*shiva's mind is always on narayana and narayana's mind is always on shiva.. they glorify each other equally..

 

*shiva says in one story he does not grant moksha, ... he says narayana grants moksha..narayana is the only one who rests above the ocean of illusion with consort laxmi..

 

*krsna has his eternal abode vrnadarvon which is not subject to the laws of time or the dissolution of the four cycles..

 

*one story in another book will say kali gives liberation and she is the absolute

 

*krsna says he favours those who worship his dearest and nearest, another time he says he favours those who worship him, another time he says one's guru is as good as god.. another time he says he is in all and all is in him.. one should see him in everything the same...

 

*it is stated clearly in places there are no differences between shiva and vishnu and yet in other places there are distinctive differences...

 

so taking just these contradictions into account which is a very small piece of the pie, the vaishnava or shivaite perspective at the end of the day will be the same..

 

no one who is honest is going to try and limit their definition of Divine Supreme to just one "Name and Form" only. so the answer to your question depends entirely on the individual, how deep their interpretative understanding wants to go...

 

which raises the obvious issue...

 

it is all about Attitude not about Name.. . it is limiting to think that the moksha giver will not give moksha because of a "name" and a "form" or cannot work through any variety of "name" or "form" it chooses to, moksha is given to everyone with right attitude to Divine.. it comes down to the same two things for everybody.. humility, surrender of the ego and devotion.. .. there is no other approach.. one will see subtle distinctions in the names or forms without any differentiation in the supreme essence .. with this understanding,the vedas can demonstrate every conceivable contradiction possible without ever losing a grain of absolute truth or coherency.. all the descriptions of the deities, their names and forms are correct and can be taken as is.. the Truth or Conception is not just a linear picture made up of dualistic thoughts , and a particular movement's view depends on each and every individual.. spirituality or the "View" is not encompassed in a movement or organisation, it is in the hands of the individual..

[chandu_69]

 

it is all about Attitude not about Name.. . it is limiting to think that the moksha giver will not give moksha because of a "name" and a "form" or cannot work through any variety of "name" or "form" it chooses to, moksha is given to everyone with right attitude to Divine.. it comes down to the same two things for everybody.. humility, surrender of the ego and devotion. .. there is no other approach.. one will see subtle distinctions in the names or forms without any differentiation in the supreme essence. .. with this understanding,..

 

Thought that i should highlight some important points of an excellent post.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

<table class="contentpaneopen"><tbody><tr><td class="contentheading" width="100%">Three Considerations - for Siva Ratri </td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%"> </td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%"> </td> <td class="buttonheading" align="right" width="100%"> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table class="contentpaneopen"><tbody><tr> <td class="createdate" valign="top"> Sunday, 22 February 2009 </td> </tr> <tr> <td valign="top"> Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja

[Dear Hari-katha Readers,

Please accept our humble obeisances. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.

February 23, 2009 is Siva-ratri (in India). In observance of this auspicious day, we are sending the following lecture:]

There are three considerations (vicaras) from which to understand the relationship between Lord Krsna and Lord Siva. One is called tattva-gata-vicara - the consideration of their relationship by established philosophical truth. Another is called aisvarya-gata-vicara - the consideration of their relationship in the Supreme Lord's pastimes of majesty, and the third is naravat-gata-vicara - the consideration of their relationship in the Supreme Lord's sweet, human-like pastimes.

According to philosophical truth (tattva), Sri Krsna's plenary portion is Sadasiva, and Sadasiva's partial manifestation is Lord Siva. From the perspective of Lord Krsna's pastimes in opulence and majesty (aisvarya), Lord Krsna is Siva's worshipful Deity, who is always loved, honored and respected by him. However, in naravat-gata-vicara, Krsna plays another role - that of an ordinary human being. He performs pastimes as a very young, small child who cannot do anything independently. His mother, Srimati Yasoda devi, feeds Him and tends to all His needs. During these human-like pastimes, Lord Siva might come and give Him benedictions. In the scriptures called the Puranas it is stated that when Krsna resided in Dvaraka, He worshiped Siva to beget a child from the womb of His wife Jambavati. Although Siva is worshiped by Krsna in those pastimes, he never thinks himself superior. He is always conscious that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and that he is Krsna's eternal servant.

It is essential to have a clear understanding of these truths. One who knows these three perspectives or considerations can understand the relationship between Lord Siva and his Lord.

Established Truth

According to the principle of philosophical truth, Lord Siva is a partial manifestation of Sri Krsna's plenary expansion, Sadasiva. When Krsna desires to create, He expands Himself as Maha-Sankarsana, and possessing this creative desire, Sankarsana expands as Maha-Visnu (Karanodakasayi Visnu). Maha-Visnu then desires to create, and His desire takes the form of a light that emanates from between His eyebrows. The semblance or dim twilight reflection of that light is called Sambhu-linga (Siva). Many people worship Lord Siva in the form of Sambhu-linga. The light itself is eternal and is not Sambhu-linga; Sambhu-linga is its semblance or shadow.

There is another semblance called Yoni, and this is the shadow of Rama-devi. Rama-devi is the spiritual potency of Maha-Visnu, and in Vaikuntha She is Lord Narayana's beloved consort Laksmi-devi. This is Her original transcendental form, and Her shadow is the limited conceiving potency - Yoni.

Maha-Visnu has two types of potency with which He creates the material worlds. One type of potency is called nimitta - the instrumental cause of creation, and the other is called upadana - the ingredient cause. Instrumental and ingredient causes can be explained in this way: Suppose I say, "I killed a snake with a stick." The person who desired and performed the activity is the instrumental cause (nimitta), and the stick is the ingredient cause (upadana). In another example, a potter makes a pot. The desire or will of the potter to make the pot is the instrumental cause. The sum total of all the instruments used to create it, like the wheel, clay, mud and water, is the ingredient cause.

Maha-Visnu's eternal instrumental potency takes its reflected form as Yoni, the limited shadow potency, and the ingredient cause assumes the reflection-form of Sambhu-linga. Creation then takes place by the union of Sambhu-linga and his female consort Yoni. Sambhu is called the linga of the Supreme Lord, which means that he is the manifest symbol of the Lord's male generative capacity, and he appears for the purpose of preparing the cosmic manifestation. That potency which gives birth to the material creation is the energy called Maya, and her intrinsic form is Yoni.

Actually, the original instrumental and ingredient cause is not Yoni and Sambhu; it is Maha-Visnu. Material nature, as Yoni, desires to create by dint of the kama-bija (desire seed) impregnated in her, and she is therefore the secondary instrumental cause. The desire-seed gave her the urge to create, and because she then wanted to create, she is called the instrumental cause. Sambhu supplies the materials of creation, and he is therefore called the ingredient cause. Sambhu, the dim reflection of the Supreme Lord's own divine desire-filled glance, consummates his union with Yoni. However, he can do nothing independent of the desire of Maha-Visnu.

Maha-Visnu is the Supreme personified Will, and it is He who brings about the union of the two - Yoni and Sambhu. He is the divine dominating person, the plenary portion of Lord Krsna and the creator of the mundane world. In order for creation to take place, there must be the desire of the Supreme Doer. He must be present. The instrumental cause and ingredient cause must be mixed with the desire or glance of Maha-Visnu.

The initial form of the creation is mahat-tattva, the sum-total twenty-four elements. [*See Endnote 1] This mahat-tattva is the reflection of the kama-bija, the original desire-seed in Goloka Vrndavana. The seed of amorous creative desire in Goloka is the embodiment of pure cognition. It is a prototype of the sex desire in this mundane world, though it is located far from it. The seed of the mundane sex desire is thus the perverted reflection of the seed of the original creative desire in Goloka Vrndavana.

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[Sonic Yogi]

 

Service in Pastimes of Majesty

The historical narrations that follow are examples of aisvarya-gata-vicara, Lord Siva's relationship with Krsna from the perspective of Krsna's majesty. Revealed in Srimad-Bhagavatam, these transcendental histories demonstrate Lord Siva's dependence on Him. They also further reveal that when Siva gives benedictions to Krsna's enemies, he does so to assist in the Supreme Lord's pastimes, which are performed for the benefit of all beings.

Siva's Dependence

Srimad-Bhagavatam tells of a demon named Vrkasura who, desiring to enjoy Lord Siva's wife, Parvati, performed severe austerities to ‘please' Lord Siva. When Lord Siva appeared before him to grant him a benediction, Vrkasura expressed his desire that as soon as he would touch the head of anyone, that person's head would immediately split open and he would die.

Lord Siva granted this benediction, and Vrkasura immediately rushed forward to use it against Lord Siva.

Siva asked, "What are you doing?" He replied, "Now I am applying my benediction." He did not say, "I want Parvati." He simply looked at Parvati and then ran towards Lord Siva. Fearful, Siva ran away, and Vrkasura immediately chased after him. Lord Siva was attired in a deerskin, which fell off, and then his damaru drum also fell. He kept running, however, and he remembered his Lord. Who was the Lord he remembered? It was Sri Krsna. This is aisvarya-gata-vicara.

Lord Siva fled from the land to the sky and from the sky to other planets, until he reached the limits of the universe, but Vrkasura continued to chase him. The predominating deities of higher planets, such as Brahma, Indra and Candra, were not able to save him from the impending danger, and finally he approached Krsna's incarnation, Lord Visnu in Svetadvipa.

In order to protect His devotee, Lord Visnu appeared as a perfect brahmacari, and the effulgence emanating from His body was attractive to both Siva and the demon. After stopping Vrkasura by offering obeisances to him, and winning his confidence by speaking sweet and reassuring words, Lord Visnu asked, "Why are you running after Siva?"

Vrkasura replied, "He has given me the benediction that when I put my hand on someone's head it will split open. Now I will use the benediction on him."

Lord Visnu in the dress of a brahmacari said, "You are very foolish. You believe the benediction of this man who smokes ganja, takes all types of intoxication and lives in crematoriums? Do you believe that he is authorized and powerful enough to give benedictions? His benediction will prove futile. He is just fooling you. You are running after him, but in the end you will find that his benediction is ineffective. Try it on yourself; put your hand on your head. You will see that nothing happens."

Vrkasura agreed, "Yes, I will try."

In this way, by Lord Visnu's sweet words and by the expansion of His illusory energy, the demon became bewildered. He forgot the power of Lord Siva and his benediction. He therefore put his hand on his own head, it immediately split open, and he died. This pastime gives evidence that Lord Siva is not independent; his worshipable Deity is Krsna. [*See Endnote 2]

Siva's Benefactor

All the pastimes performed by Siva are meant to teach everyone about Sri Krsna's supremacy, and to inspire everyone to serve Him and take shelter of Him. The following history is another example of this.

The demigods once fought with the demons and defeated them. The demons then took shelter of their leader, Maya Danava, who then prepared three mystic airplane-like residences for them. The demons thus began to vanquish all the planetary systems.

Thereafter, when the demons began to destroy the higher planetary systems, the rulers of those planets went to Lord Siva, surrendered unto him and said, "Dear Lord, we demigods are about to be vanquished. We are your followers. Kindly save us."

Lord Siva reassured them and said, "Do not be afraid." He fixed his arrows to his bow and released them toward the three residences occupied by the demons, and all the demons were killed. The great mystic Maya Danava then dropped the bodies of the demons into a nectarean well he had created, making the demons return to life and become practically invincible.

Siva became very worried. Seeing this, Lord Krsna in His form as Lord Visnu considered how to help him destroy the demons. Lord Visnu became a cow and Lord Brahma became a calf, and they entered the residences and drank all the nectar in the well. Then, by His personal potency of religion, knowledge, renunciation, opulence, austerity, education and so on, Krsna equipped Lord Siva with everything he needed for the battle. He manifested a chariot, a charioteer, a flag, horses, elephants, a bow, a shield and arrows, and Lord Siva sat down on the chariot to fight. He destroyed three residences of the demons, the inhabitants of the higher planets glorified and worshipped him, and he became known as Tripurari, the annihilator of the three dwellings of the demons.

So don't fear. Krsna will save you if you offer yourself to Him. He Himself has promised this in Bhagavad-gita. If you hand over your complete responsibility in life to Him - not only your bodily maintenance, but your intelligence, your senses and everything else you possess - He will take full care and responsibility for you. Don't fear. No suffering or sorrow of any kind will be able to touch you. Moreover, you will be able to enter the realm of bhakti and be happy forever.

Siva's Worshipable Deity

Further evidence of Lord Siva's relationship with Krsna in the Supreme Lord's pastimes of majesty is found in the history of Aniruddha. Aniruddha is the grandson of Lord Krsna, and he wanted to marry the daughter of Banasura, a demonic person who was a staunch devotee of Lord Siva. By the blessings of Lord Siva, Banasura had one thousand arms, and he served Lord Siva with all of them. He assisted Siva's famous dancing by rhythmically beating drums with his one thousand hands, and he thus received the benediction of protection from his enemies.

Krsna was informed by Sri Narada that Banasura and his army had fought with and arrested Aniruddha for intimately meeting with Banasura's daughter, Usa. Therefore, in order to save Aniruddha, He called upon His own army, the Yadu dynasty, and advanced on Banasura's city. When Banasura saw Lord Krsna's army, he immediately ordered his men to fight.

Lord Siva arrived there at that time, but instead of praying to his Lord, he apparently took the side of his own devotee, Banasura. He personally began fighting with Krsna as Banasura's commander-in-chief. He shot many weapons at Krsna, including his Pasupata-astra and his ultimate weapon, the Siva-jvara, but all of them failed.

During the battle, Banasura showered his weapons upon Sri Krsna with his one thousand arms. Krsna then cut off his arms with His Sudarsana cakra, leaving him with only four. Finally Lord Siva, realizing that he was helpless to save his devotee, surrendered to Lord Krsna and offered his heartfelt prayers.[*See Endnote 3]

After hearing Siva's prayers, Lord Krsna told him that because Banasura was the son of Bali Maharaja and the great-grandson of Prahlada Maharaja, and because he was favored by Lord Siva himself, He would not only spare Banasura's life, but would give him immortality.

Siva Takes Shelter

According to Srimad-Bhagavatam and Skanda Purana, when Krsna resided in Dvaraka, He often assumed His form as four-handed Vasudeva. In fact, He was famous there as such. At that time there was a king named Paundraka, who had attached two artificial arms on his body and declared, "Krsna is not the four-handed Vasudeva. I am that Vasudeva." He sent a messenger to Sri Krsna with the declaration, "Stop claiming to be four-handed Vasudeva. I am He." After Lord Krsna and His royal family laughed for a considerable time, the Lord sent a reply to the challenge and prepared to fight.

The King of Kasi was a staunch devotee of Lord Siva, and he took the side of Paundraka Vasudeva. He had previously received a benediction from Lord Siva to be able to defeat Krsna in combat, but in this battle he was not only defeated, but killed. With the assistance of His Sudarsana cakra Sri Krsna killed Paundraka, and by His arrows He killed the king of Kasi. Having cut off the head of the king, He then arranged to throw it into the city of Kasi.

The King had a son named Sudaksina, who was determined to avenge the death of his father. Sudaksina thus worshiped the lord of Kasi, Visvanatha - Lord Siva - who then instructed him to perform a special ritualistic ceremony that calls forth a fire demon for the purpose of killing one's enemy. Lord Siva also sanctioned his ghostly companions to accompany the fire demon, and Dvaraka then fell under attack.

Krsna called for his Sudarsana cakra, which froze the demon and forced him to return to Kasi and destroy his creators. Moreover, following behind the demon, the Sudarsana cakra burned the entire city to ashes.

At that time even Lord Siva himself had to run from the city. Where his deerskin fell, he did not know. He also left his trident and everything else, including his wife, and quickly fled. He arrived at a place in Navadvipa [*See Endnote 3] called Harihara-ksetra, and there he took shelter of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. [*See Endnote 5] From Navadvipa he went to Ekamra-kanana (now Bhuvanesvara) near Puri, in Orissa, where he took shelter of Sri Krsna in His form as Lord Jagannatha. This pastime is aisvarya-gata-vicara, and it also reveals that the worshipable Deity of Lord Siva is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, or Sri Krsna.

 

[Sonic Yogi]

 

Service in Human-like Pastimes

Lord Ramacandra's worship of Lord Siva is an example of naravata-gata-vicara - a sweet, human-like pastime. As stated earlier, Rama played the role of an ordinary human being who had to perform the difficult task of crossing the ocean to reach Lanka, and He worshiped Lord Siva for the power to do this.

Lord Rama established a linga of Ramesvara Mahadeva and began worshiping him, thinking, "By Lord Siva's mercy I can cross the sea." Actually He was powerful enough to personally jump across the ocean in a second, but He was playing a role to inspire ordinary people. The common people present considered that Ramesvara Mahadeva was in fact the lord of Rama, and that was why his name was Ramesvara. The demigods then appeared and declared, "Ramesvara Mahadeva and Rama are both the same. There is no difference between them. Both are isvara; both are God, the Supreme Lord. Ordinary people think only that Ramesvara is the lord of Rama, but they are not intelligent. It is not like that." At that moment Lord Siva manifested from the linga and said, "No. Try to understand this truth. Ramesvara means ‘He whose Lord is Rama.' Rama is my Lord!"

The pastimes of Lord Rama are found in Ramayana, Srimad-Bhagavatam, the Puranas and Rama-carita-manasa, and they take place in a previous Age, called Treta-yuga. The demonic king Ravana had kidnapped Lord Rama's wife, Sita devi, and taken Her to Lanka. Before Rama knew where Sita had been taken, He was weeping profusely, and Laksmana was trying to console Him. The more Laksmana tried to pacify Him, however, the more bitterly He wept. In this state of mind, He was beseeching the trees and creatures of the forest, and even the Godavari River. He appealed to the trees of Panjatavi forest, "O Panjatavi, have you seen Sita? Where has She gone? O deer, have you seen Sita? O Godavari, have you seen My dear Sita? Why has She left Me?" Lord Rama became maddened from inconsolable grief.

At this time Lord Siva and his wife Sati came to Dandakaranya Forest, where Lord Rama had been living with Sita and His brother Laksmana for fourteen years, following the order of His father, King Dasaratha. Siva was thus present to witness Lord Rama's divine pastimes, and seeing them, he was moved; his heart melted. He offered full obeisances, with all the limbs of his body touching the ground, and glorified Rama: "Oh! These pastimes are so beautiful and marvelous that they will melt the heart of anyone who sees them." He then circumambulated the outer precincts of that area, weeping due to the transcendental emotions of grief in separation exhibited in his Lord's pastimes.

Offering his final respects, Siva was ready to return to Kailasa, when Sati asked him, "My dear husband, to whom are you offering obeisances?" Lord Siva replied, "Sri Rama is my worshipful Deity. I worship Him always." Sati said, "I see that Rama is like an ordinary man weeping for his wife. Even I know where Sita is, but He does not know? Why is He grieving? He appears to be a weak person. Is He not strong enough to bring Sita back? He must be an ordinary man, not God. Why are you honoring Him so?"

 

"You are ignorant," Lord Siva told his doubting wife. "You do not understand that Rama is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." He told her that if she did not believe him she could conduct a test of some sort, to determine Sri Rama's position.

Lord Siva rested under a banyan tree a little distance away, and Sati, by her inherent mystic power, changed to a form like Sita's. She went to the area where Sri Rama was piteously searching for Sita. She thought that if she would appear before Rama as Sita, He would come and embrace her in joyous relief, believing that He had found His wife. However, although she appeared before him again and again, He ignored her each time. He simply looked away. Finally He said to her, "Mother, why are you roaming alone here in the forest? Where is your husband, Siva?"

Sati became astonished and fearful, and wondered how Rama knew who she really was. She knelt in reverence, and at that time she no longer saw the trees, plants, and wildlife of the forest as before. She saw Sita-Rama everywhere and in everything. Wherever she looked in the forest - here, there and everywhere - she saw only Sita-Rama, Sita-Rama, Sita-Rama.

In this manner, Sri Rama showed Sati that He and Sita are eternally inseparable, that He was performing this dramatic pastime to captivate the minds of human beings by its remembrance, and that He is, in fact, the Personality of Godhead. She reflected, "My husband is never ignorant. He was right and I was wrong." Rising to her feet, she saw that Rama was still there alone in the forest with Laksmana, weeping, "Oh Sita, where are You, where are You?"

Then, reassuming her own form, she returned to the spot where Siva was waiting under the banyan tree. He asked her, "Did you test Him to see who He is?"

Sati lied, "Most respected husband, I believed you; so there was no need to test Him."

Lord Siva saw in a trance what had actually happened and silently vowed, "Sati has taken the form of Sita, my mother; therefore she is no longer my wife. She is now my mother, and from now on I will treat her as such."

When he made this vow, the demigods at once showered flowers from heaven, and they praised him, "You have made a remarkable vow."

Sati asked, "What vow did you make?"

Siva remained silent.

The bona fide disciple always has faith in his self-realized guru. Lord Siva was the Guru of Sati, but she had not believed him when he told her that Rama is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If a disciple does not obey his gurudeva, his bhakti and spiritual life will diminish. If a disciple lies to his gurudeva, he again goes to hell.

When Lord Siva and Sati-devi returned to their cottage in Kailasa, Siva placed her seat facing him. In Vedic culture a wife sits on the left side of her husband and a mother, respected as guru, sits in front of her son, facing him.

A disciple does not offer obeisance to his gurudeva from his guru's right or left side, but always in front of him. A true disciple does not remain silent, but respectfully asks relevant questions of his guru and serves him. He does not ask questions in a challenging mood, but rather to learn. It is stated in Bhagavad-gita (4.34):

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

["Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth."]

Lord Siva entered a trance for thousands of years, and Sati felt severe separation from him. She thought, "Siva has left me. He is treating me like his mother because I took the form of Sita. As long as I am in this body he will not accept me as his wife, so I will have to give up this body."

After some time, Sati's father Daksa, the son of Lord Brahma and great progenitor of the universe, began a sacrifice. Although every sacrifice is intended to please the Supreme Lord Visnu, all the demigods, especially Lord Brahma, Lord Siva and the other principal demigods, are invited and take part. However, Lord Siva was not invited to Daksa's sacrifice.

The chaste Sati heard the heavenly denizens, who were flying in the sky, speaking about the great sacrifice being performed by her father. She saw that the wives of the heavenly denizens, dressed in fine clothing, were coming from all directions and were going to the sacrifice. She approached her husband and said, "My dear Lord, your father-in-law is now performing a great sacrifice. All the demigods who were invited by him are going. If you desire, we may also go."

Lord Siva warned her not to go, due to her father's enmity and envy towards him - an enmity that had begun long before, in a former Age. Lord Siva now remembered his father-in-law's harsh words spoken at that time. Siva had come to Daksa's council, where Daksa was being honored by many leaders of the universe. Daksa's daughter was married to Lord Siva, so he considered Siva to be like his son. He offered obeisances to Brahma because Brahma was his father, but he did not show any respect to Siva. Lord Brahma welcomed Daksa, but Siva was absorbed in meditation and chanting the maha-mantra: "Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare."

Insulted by Siva's apparent neglect and considering himself Siva's superior, Daksa publically criticized him. Many incidents took place as a result of that, and Siva returned to Kailasa. Previous to this, Daksa had often criticized Siva, being disturbed that his daughter had married such an ‘inferior person,' but after this incident he considered Siva his enemy. Lord Siva, on the other hand, had never felt enmity towards Daksa.

Now Lord Siva told Sati, "A woman can go without an invitation to see her guru or her father and mother, but if her father thinks that her husband is his enemy, then she should not go to see him. You know that your father thinks I am his enemy, although I have never considered him as such."

Despite her husband's words, Sati was determined to go. She went, but upon her arrival she observed Daksa dishonoring him. She angrily condemned her father and glorified Lord Siva in front of all present. Then, while meditating on Lord Siva's holy lotus feet, she gave up her body in a mystic fire that manifested from her heart.

By quitting her body, Sati was able to disconnect herself from her offensive father and transfer herself to another body in order to associate with Lord Siva without that contamination. However, her main motive was to become free from the result of her own offenses, and again be accepted as Lord Siva's beloved wife. In her next life she took birth as Parvati, the daughter of the Himalayas. In that birth she performed austerities for many years and achieved her desired goal.

Here we see that Siva's worshipable Deity is Rama, and because Sati took the form of Sita-devi, he left her. He is a chaste Vaisnava, always serving Lord Krsna and Lord Rama. Sati-devi is also a pure devotee. She is the Supreme Lord's divine energy, but she was playing a role in order to give lessons to ordinary persons.

Both Siva and Sati served in Lord Rama's human-like pastimes. Ravana had not actually taken the real Sita. He was not able to touch her. He could only take a maya-sita. The real Sita, the transcendental potency of Rama, was taken away and protected by the lord of fire, Agnideva. Rama's crying and asking each and every plant, tree, mountain and river, "Where is my Sita?" was an exhibition of His human-like pastimes.

The great saint Tulsidasa has written in his Sri Rama-carita-manasa that we should accept Sri Siva-Parvati as our Guru, and they will give us love for the lotus feet of Rama. Those who worship Siva as an independent lord are like Vrkasura. They want to have sense gratification with Krsna's potency. Instead of becoming Vrkasura, we should become devotees, and consider Siva-Parvati as our Guru in the matter of devotion to the Supreme Lord.

Consider further the identity of Lord Siva's worshipable Deity. Siva's mantra is Rama, and he always chants the holy name of Rama. To whom does this refer? Although this also refers to Sri Sita-Rama, the name he actually chants is that of Mula-Sankarsana, Balarama, the first expansion of Lord Krsna. Sri Ramacandra is also an expansion of mula-Rama (the original Rama) - Balarama - but the factual worshipable Deity of Lord Siva is Balarama.

Ultimately, in the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, Rama does not refer to Dasaratha's son Rama, nor to Parasurama or Balarama. Lord Ramacandra, Lord Parasurama and Lord Balarama are all manifestations of Sri Radha-ramana.

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna

Krsna Krsna Hare Hare,

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

The meaning of Rama here is Radha-ramana, Sri Krsna who engages in ‘ramana' with Radha. "Ramana" means playing or enjoying. Krsna enjoys playful pastimes with Radharani, and He is therefore called Ramana or Rama.