uttama-bhagavata is an impersonalist?

[Kulapavana]

 

sorry , but this purport is simply false !

 

 

I see it as a case of over-emphasis on dvaita understanding, out of fear that his disciples might venture too far into the modern versions of monism. Compromising the truth to tell a useful tale. Prabhupada did that quite often.

 

However, there comes a time when a child no longer believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. I do not blame Prabhupada for sometimes telling his disciples fairy tales. I blame his adult disciples for clinging to these fairy tales as aif they were the absolute truth.

[theist]

 

modern gaudiya movements use these terms in a much abstract meaning . this way , anyone who is not an adherent of saaraswata gaudiya sampradaya starting with BSST becomes a sahajiya . in reality sahajiya is a particular sect that believe in what they call sahajamarg and propagated their leader aaulchand as an incarnation of chaitanya . today every other sect is 'sahajiya' .

 

 

 

Prabhupada gave us a loose definition of sahajiya which is one who takes spiritual things cheaply. One can be a sahajiya under this definiton and reside in a iskcon temple or anywhere else while making of a show of being a GV.

 

In the west the stricter defintion has no meaning to the mass of followers and especially in the sixties and seventies would not have been helpful.

 

We may or may not see this fault in others but better we concentrate on weeding out the sahajiya tendancies within our own inner gardens.

 

I myself instantly become a sahajiya when I start to take myself too seriously and think and project myself to be a real devotee to others.

 

The fact that people missuse the word sahajiya is irrelevant really.

 

We also have to gaurd against using the bad habits of others as an excuse to bash them.

 

Introspection is always a valuable tool we must employ in our search for a relationship with the Lord based in reality.

 

Hare Krishna

[sambya]

 

Sorry, but all these purports are primary based on commentaries by Sridhar Swami, Madhvacarya, Jiva Goswami, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur etc.

 

The purports follow the conclusions and commentaries of the previous acharyas.

 

Obviously, you don't know enough to be speaking out and exposing your lack of freestanding.

 

there is no possible way to make you understand the point that im making unless you develop some elementary knowledge of sanskrit !!

 

 

 

the words specifically speak about nirvikalpa and advaita and gyana in its truest and purest sense .

 

even in the translation it is expressed as such .

 

but in the purports it is said that these are monists but their oneness is not absolute oneness . now which word in this sloka mentions that it is not absolute oneness ?

 

anyways its worthless to converse with you unless you come back with a sanskrit dictionary in hand !!!

[sambya]

 

I see it as a case of over-emphasis on dvaita understanding, out of fear that his disciples might venture too far into the modern versions of monism. Compromising the truth to tell a useful tale. Prabhupada did that quite often.

 

However, there comes a time when a child no longer believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. I do not blame Prabhupada for sometimes telling his disciples fairy tales. I blame his adult disciples for clinging to these fairy tales as aif they were the absolute truth.

 

absolutely correct !!

[Kulapavana]

 

and thousand thanks to krishna for giving you the eyes to love him without hating others.

 

Yes, I am very grateful for receiving so many great gifts from Krsna. Initially I approached Him for knowledge. Over the years I have received that, and much, much more.

 

The ability to appreciate others is a true mature fruit of spiritual knowledge, because you realize how they are all dear to Krsna, and how we are all part of the same river of being flowing from Krsna. That is monism, and perfect realization of it makes you a great soul.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

anyways its worthless to converse with you unless you come back with a sanskrit dictionary in hand !!!

 

1 nirvikalpa mfn. (or %{-pana} L.) not admitting an alternative , free from change or differences , Tejob. Up. Veda7ntas. ; admitting no doubt , not wavering Bhartr2. (%{am}) ind. without hesitation or reflection Pan5c. ; %{-vAda} and %{-vicAra} m. N. of wks.

[sant]

 

Quote:

I see it as a case of over-emphasis on dvaita understanding, out of fear that his disciples might venture too far into the modern versions of monism. Compromising the truth to tell a useful tale. Prabhupada did that quite often.

 

However, there comes a time when a child no longer believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. I do not blame Prabhupada for sometimes telling his disciples fairy tales. I blame his adult disciples for clinging to these fairy tales as aif they were the absolute truth.

 

 

 

not very good.

But cant expect better from you whos trying to defame prabhupada

[sambya]

 

But cant expect better from you whos trying to defame prabhupada

 

its not about defaming prabhupada !

 

check out the meaning of the word defaming . did he say anything false ?

 

to think and use your own brain and at the same time keep unmoved faith in god is a rare capability .

 

if i shut my senses to all other philosophies and to the world and remain trapped inside my own world called god , that is one way

 

and i think over what i recieve with my senses and yet keep unflinching faith in what i believe is another !

 

he is not derogating prabhupada . mere stating of what one percieves as facts cannot amount to defaming !!!

[sant]

 

its not about defaming prabhupada !

 

check out the meaning of the word defaming . did he say anything false ?

 

to think and use your own brain and at the same time keep unmoved faith in god is a rare capability .

 

if i shut my senses to all other philosophies and to the world and remain trapped inside my own world called god , that is one way

 

and i think over what i recieve with my senses and yet keep unflinching faith in what i believe is another !

 

he is not derogating prabhupada . mere stating of what one percieves as facts cannot amount to defaming

If you can use yours then you can see what he has written and time and time iv been noticing.

 

see it as a case of over-emphasis on dvaita understanding, out of fear that his disciples might venture too far into the modern versions of monism. Compromising the truth to tell a useful tale. Prabhupada did that quite often.

 

[Kulapavana]

 

not very good.

But cant expect better from you whos trying to defame prabhupada

 

The good qualities of Prabhupada are self evident to any sane person. There is no need to invent imaginary glories by fabricating myths about him like his disciples often do. But you cant expect better from those who turned Gaudiya Vaishnavism into an updated guru personality cult of karta-bhajas.

[sant]

 

if i shut my senses to all other philosophies and to the world and remain trapped inside my own world called god , that is one way

 

That was true then have you considered Scientology Or worshiping tigers or vultures just like tribal people or beating up dogs to death to offer to a deity.

[sant]

 

There is no need to invent imaginary glories by fabricating myths about him like his disciples often do

Tell me one swami kulpavana ji

 

But you cant expect better from those who turned Gaudiya Vaishnavism into an updated guru personality cult of karta-bhajas.

 

 

Who are you talking about.

[Sonic Yogi]

 

 

 

i remeber that in some old thread there was some arguments about nirvikalpa being false .

 

just see this verse , clear and specific mention of nirvikalpa .

 

So you think Gaudiya Vaishnavas have no understanding of monism?

You obviously know nothing about Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

If you have some proof that somebody said nirvikalpa is false, then you should present evidence or desist from making unsupported claims.

 

You are obviously a very angry and bitter person looking for a fight.

[Kulapavana]

SB 1.9.43sūta uvāca

kṛṣṇa evaḿ bhagavati

mano-vāg-dṛṣṭi-vṛttibhiḥ

ātmany ātmānam āveśya

so 'ntaḥśvāsa upāramat

SYNONYMS

sūtaḥ uvāca — Sūta Gosvāmī said; kṛṣṇe — Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; evam — only; bhagavati — unto Him; manaḥ — with mind; vāk — speech; dṛṣṭi — sight; vṛttibhiḥ — activities; ātmani — unto the Supersoul; ātmānam — the living being; āveśya — having merged in; saḥ — he; antaḥ-śvāsaḥ — inhaling; upāramat — became silent.

TRANSLATION

Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus Bhīṣmadeva merged himself in the Supersoul, Lord ŚrīKṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, with his mind, speech, sight and actions, and thus he became silent, and his breathing stopped.

PURPORT

The stage attained by Bhīṣmadeva while quitting his material body is called nirvikalpa-samādhi because he merged his self into thinking of the Lord and his mind into remembering His different activities. He chanted the glories of the Lord, and by his sight he began to see the Lord personally present before him, and thus all his activities became concentrated upon the Lord without deviation. This is the highest stage of perfection, and it is possible for everyone to attain this stage by practice of devotional service.

[sant]

 

SB 1.9.43sūta uvāca

kṛṣṇa evaḿ bhagavati

mano-vāg-dṛṣṭi-vṛttibhiḥ

ātmany ātmānam āveśya

so 'ntaḥśvāsa upāramat

SYNONYMS

sūtaḥ uvāca — Sūta Gosvāmī said; kṛṣṇe — Lord Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; evam — only; bhagavati — unto Him; manaḥ — with mind; vāk — speech; dṛṣṭi — sight; vṛttibhiḥ — activities; ātmani — unto the Supersoul; ātmānam — the living being; āveśya — having merged in; saḥ — he; antaḥ-śvāsaḥ — inhaling; upāramat — became silent.

TRANSLATION

Sūta Gosvāmī said: Thus Bhīṣmadeva merged himself in the Supersoul, Lord ŚrīKṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, with his mind, speech, sight and actions, and thus he became silent, and his breathing stopped.

PURPORT

The stage attained by Bhīṣmadeva while quitting his material body is called nirvikalpa-samādhi because he merged his self into thinking of the Lord and his mind into remembering His different activities. He chanted the glories of the Lord, and by his sight he began to see the Lord personally present before him, and thus all his activities became concentrated upon the Lord without deviation. This is the highest stage of perfection, and it is possible for everyone to attain this stage by practice of devotional service.

 

What is wrong in this.

 

In Hinduism, when used as a technical term in Raja Yoga, the phrase nirvikalpa samādhi refers to a particular type of samādhi that Heinrich Zimmer distinguises from other states as follows:

 

Nirvikalpa samādhi, on the other hand, absorption without self-consciousness, is a mergence of the mental activity (cittavṛtti) in the Self, to such a degree, or in such a way, that the distinction (vikalpa) of knower, act of knowing, and object known becomes dissolved — as waves vanish in water, and as foam vanishes into the sea.[3] The difference to the other samadhis is that there is no return from this samadhi into lower states of consciousness. Therefore this is the only true final Enlightenment.

param hans yogananda

 

In the most advanced state [of samadhi], nirvikalpa samadhi, the soul realizes itself and Spirit as one. The ego consciousness, the soul consciousness, and the ocean of Spirit are seen all existing together. It is the state of simultaneously watching the ocean of Spirit and the waves of creation. The individual no longer sees himself as a "John Smith" related to a particular environment; he realizes that the ocean of Spirit has become not only the wave of John Smith but also the waves of all ofter lives. In nirvikalpa the soul is simultaneously conscious of Spirit within and creation without. The divine man in the nirvikalpa state may even engage in performance of his material duties with no loss of inner God-union.

 

Maharshi Mahesh Yogi describes how meditation develops the state of "nirvikalpa samadhi" in his translation of verse 39, Chapter 4 the Bhagavad-Gita

Meditation takes the mind to transcendental Self-consciousness, and a natural and balanced activity infuses the transcendental divine nature into the mind, where it is not lost even when the mind is engaged in the field of activity. In this way Self-consciousness grows to cosmic consciousness - Atmananda to Brahmananda, savikalpa to nirvikalpa - and eventually this state of Yoga, cosmic consciousness, attains its fulfillment in God-consciousness; the first ray of enlightenment reaches its full glory.

Nirvikalpaka yoga is a technical term in the philosophical system of , in which there is a complete identification of the "I" and , in which the very concepts of name and form disappear and Shiva alone is experienced as the real Self. In that system, this experience occurs when there is complete cessation of all thought-constructs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvikalpa

In philosophy, the technical term nirvikalpa-jñāna is translated by as "undifferentiated cognition". Conze notes that only the actual experience of nirvikalpa-jñāna can prove the reports given of it in scriptures. He describes the term as used in Buddhist context as follows:

 

The "undiscriminate coganition" knows first the unreality of all objects, then realizes that without them also the knowledge itself falls to the ground, and finally directly intuits the supreme reality. Great efforts are made to maintain the paradoxical nature of this gnosis. Though without concepts, judgements and discrimination, it is nevertheless not just mere thoughtlessness. It is neither a cognition nor a non-cognition; its basis is neither thought nor non-thought.... There is here no duality of subject and object. The cognition is not different from that which is cognized, but completely identical with it.

[8]

 

Is the definition same everywhere.

[sant]

Read this also.

Samadhi in Bhakti

The Vaishnava Bhakti Schools of Yoga define Samadhi as "complete absorption into the object of one's love (Krishna)." Rather than thinking of "nothing," true samadhi is said to be achieved only when one has pure, unmotivated love of God. Thus samadhi can be entered into through meditation on the personal form of God, even while performing daily activities a practitioner can strive for full samadhi.

"Anyone who is thinking of Krsna always within himself, he is first-class yogi." If you want perfection in yoga system, don't be satisfied only by practicing a course of asana. You have to go further. Actually, the perfection of yoga system means when you are in samadhi, always thinking of the Visnu form of the Lord within your heart, without being disturbed... Controlling all the senses and the mind. You have to control the mind, control the senses, and concentrate everything on the form of Vishnu. That is called perfection of yoga" - A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [6]

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

What is wrong in this.

 

Nothing. I posted all of these verses to show that monism was always part of the Bhagavata school, despite the many attempts to prove otherwise by the Saraswatas.

[sant]

 

Nothing. I posted all of these verses to show that monism was always part of the Bhagavata school, despite the many attempts to prove otherwise by the Saraswatas.

 

who are the sarswats.

What is this bhagwat school

[theist]

The monism of the Saraswata (GV) schools is nothing like the monism of Shankaracarya. Oneness AND difference simultaneously!

[Sonic Yogi]

 

who are the sarswats.

What is this bhagwat school

 

The Saraswata Gaudiya Sampradaya is the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya that comes in the disciplic line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami.

 

The Saraswata sampradaya is distinguished from other Gaudiya parivars in some ways that separate it from some of the other Gaudiya parivars of India.

 

So, the "Saraswata" designation is meant to distinguish a particular branch of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas.

 

Even in Gaudiya Vaishnavism there are sects with slight variants on siddhanta and sadhana etc.

[Gadadhara dasa (rus)]

 

I see it as a case of over-emphasis on dvaita understanding, out of fear that his disciples might venture too far into the modern versions of monism. Compromising the truth to tell a useful tale. Prabhupada did that quite often.

 

However, there comes a time when a child no longer believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. I do not blame Prabhupada for sometimes telling his disciples fairy tales. I blame his adult disciples for clinging to these fairy tales as aif they were the absolute truth.

With these words you give me back some faith in Bhaktivedanta Swami which I lose otherwise hearing his other disciples. Thanks.

[sambya]

 

So you think Gaudiya Vaishnavas have no understanding of monism?

You obviously know nothing about Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

If you have some proof that somebody said nirvikalpa is false, then you should present evidence or desist from making unsupported claims.

 

GV have their own interpratations of monism through the achintya bhedabheda theory . i have absolutely no objection with that . every school has their own interpretations .

 

but they(GV) have incomplete conceptions about the monism of sankaracharya . rather they sometimes try to pass on their own monism as that of sankaracharya . this is precisely what i noticed in the last sloka !

 

I saw someone on this forum speak of nirvikalpa as false . that was long back and i dont remember which thread it was in , and obviously he was misinformed .

[Kulapavana]

 

With these words you give me back some faith in Bhaktivedanta Swami which I lose otherwise hearing his other disciples. Thanks.

 

You are welcome.

 

Srila Prabhupada had his own vision of Krsna consciousness and his own approach to training his disciples, many of whom were really low class people with huge egos. He sacrificed a LOT when he came to NY from Vrindavan. The eventual success of his mission was a very, very significant development which in many ways shaped Prabhupada's message and practical approach. I think he actually wanted to develop a new world religion based on Gaudiya Vaishnavism, rather than simply stick to GV itself. This is something that perhaps goes back to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

You have to look at Srila Prabhupada with your own eyes. Simply rejecting the myth his fanatical disciples are trying to force on everybody is only part of the picture. The core of his teachings is very solid, and his methods are mostly effective. But there is a lot of stuff on the edges that is very debatable, very controversial, and often very ineffective. Some of his disciples developed into very nice advanced devotees, while others developed into obnoxious and ignorant fanatics and guru-groupies. So ultimately it is a somewhat mixed picture but certainly the primary tone is very positive.

[sant]

 

With these words you give me back some faith in Bhaktivedanta Swami which I lose otherwise hearing his other disciples.

interesting may i ask what you and kulpavana have been hearing about these myths.

[Kulapavana]

 

interesting may i ask what you and kulpavana have been hearing about these myths.

 

These myths are quite common in Iskcon circles. Here is one example: http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/06-09/editorials4581.htm

Some of Prabhupada's disciples think that there is no need for the sastra, because whatever their guru said is more important than sastra. There is no need to pay attention to the sadhus as well. Just like there is no need to observe the rules established by their guru's guru (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta).

 

Such disciples are nothing but a guru-cult grouppies.