Gaudiya Vaishnava Conception of Shiva

[gHari]

As accurately referenced earlier by the old seaman ...portion of Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.28p:

 

 

The summum bonum KRSNa is one without a second. He Himself has expanded Himself in various parts, portions and particles as svayaM-rUpa, svayam-prakAza, tad-ekAtmA, prAbhava, vaibhava, vilAsa, avatAra, Aveza, and jIvas, all provided with innumerable energies just suitable to the respective persons and personalities.

Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum KRSNa to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But SrI KRSNa is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakAza, tad-ekAtmA up to the categories of the avatAras who are all viSNu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatAra nor Aveza nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes. But the jIvas, or the individual living beings in different statuses of life, possess up to the limit of seventy-eight percent of the attributes.

In the conditioned state of material existence, the living being possesses these attributes in very minute quantity, varying in terms of the pious life of the living being. The most perfect of living beings is BrahmA, the supreme administrator of one universe. He possesses seventy-eight percent of the attributes in full. All other demigods have the same attributes in less quantity, whereas human beings possess the attributes in very minute quantity. The standard of perfection for a human being is to develop the attributes up to seventy-eight percent in full. The living being can never possess attributes like Siva, ViSNu or Lord KRSNa. A living being can become godly by developing the seventy-eight-percent transcendental attributes in fullness, but he can never become a God like Siva, ViSNu or KRSNa. He can become a BrahmA in due course. The godly living beings who are all residents of the planets in the spiritual sky are eternal associates of God in different spiritual planets called Hari-dhAma and Maheza-dhAma. The abode of Lord KRSNa above all spiritual planets is called KRSNaloka or Goloka VRndAvana, and the perfected living being, by developing seventy-eight percent of the above attributes in fullness, can enter the planet of KRSNaloka after leaving the present material body.

 

 

<table></table>Numbers also quoted here: http://vedabase.net/sb/4/1/15/en

 

<table></table>

[shiva]

Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi

But, those quotes seems to be at odds with Srimad Bhagavatam.

I don't know where you got those translation of if they are dependable.

Here is the best explanation that I can find. Srila Prabhupada says that Siva is simultaneously an expansion of Vishnu and jiva.

As the annihilator of the universe, the jiva aspect of Siva is acting.

It doesn't appear as Siva is two different types but simultaneously a combination of jiva tattva and Vishnu tattva.

 

 

 

 

Those are from Prabhupada's Bhagavatam. The question of this thread was about the Gaudiya Vaisnava conception. Since Jiva Goswami is considered to be the greatest philosopher and was one of the founding acharyas in Gaudiya Vaisnavism his opinion certainly should be considered as representative of Gaudiya theology. I already quoted his opinion on this topic, he clearly states what I have stated: two different Shivas, one Vishnu tattva, the other not. Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura said the same exact thing and added that a jiva fills the position of the deva Shiva. He is also considered a major acharya for Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura said, "Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura was the protector, guardian, and acarya during the middle period (1600-1700) of the historical development of Gaudiya Vaisnavism."

[Sonic Yogi]

Shiva writes:

 

"Those are from Prabhupada's Bhagavatam. The question of this thread was about the Gaudiya Vaisnava conception. Since Jiva Goswami is considered to be the greatest philosopher and was one of the founding acharyas in Gaudiya Vaisnavism his opinion certainly should be considered as representative of Gaudiya theology. I already quoted his opinion on this topic, he clearly states what I have stated: two different Shivas, one Vishnu tattva, the other not. Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura said the same exact thing and added that a jiva fills the position of the deva Shiva. He is also considered a major acharya for Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura said, "Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura was the protector, guardian, and acarya during the middle period (1600-1700) of the historical development of Gaudiya Vaisnavism."

You failed to answer where you are getting your quotes from Jiva Goswami and who it is that translated the verses.

 

end quote

***********************************************************

You failed to answer where you are getting your quotes from Jiva Goswami and who it is that translated the verses.

As well, Jiva Goswami cannot go against the Bhagavatam which states that the Siva which drank the ocean of poison, the husband of Bhavani, is the Sadasiva.

You refuse to acknowledge your sources of your so-called quotes from Jiva Goswami.

It has nothing to do with "Srila Prabhupada's" Bhagavatam as you say, because it is not in the purport but in the original text that the husband of Bhavani (Parvati) is Sadasiva and many slokas in that chapter praise this Siva as being the Paramatma and many other statements to verify that this Siva is on the level of Vishnu tattva.

 

I will trust Srila Prabhupada's version of your outside source information.

 

I don't consider that Srila Prabhupada' purports are any less than those of any previous acharya or Goswami.

 

At this point I don't think you are interested in siddhanta as much as you are defending your pride.

 

You said that the husband of Parvati is a jiva and this is just not correct.

[Sonic Yogi]

Posted by shiva

In authentic Gaudiya theology there are two different Shivas. There is Sadashiva who is Vishnu Tattva and therefore non-different from Krishna, an example is Advaita Acharya being called an incarnation of Sadashiva.

The other Shiva is the demigod Shiva who is different than Vishnu or Krishna. That is the Shiva who is married to Parvati and who was bewildered by the Mohini incarnation of Vishnu. That Shiva is a position which is usually held by a jiva (like Brahma), with a different demigod Shiva (and Brahma) in every Brahmanda. When there is no qualified jiva to fill those roles then Vishnu fills those roles.

 

 

 

 

 

No, you are wrong.

The husband of Parvati, Lord Siva is not a jiva.

Siva is always in connection with Mahamaya, but that does not make him a jiva.

When Siva is not in touch with Mahamaya, then he is the original Sadasiva who is the husband of Rama-devi, Lord Vishnu and is not the Sadasiva expansion that is in connection with Mahamaya.

 

The second Sadasiva who is the consort of Mahamaya is the combination of Vishnu-tattva and Jiva tattva as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

 

The second Sadasiva who is the expansion of the Vishnu Sadasiva is always in contact with Mahamaya and sometimes acts as Vishnu-tattva, as in his preserving the universe and protecting it from the kalakuta, and sometimes act in capacity of jiva to destroy the universe.

 

The second Sadasiva who consorts with Mahamaya is this combination of Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

Srila Prabhupada refers to him as shaktyavesha avatar which means a jiva who has been empowered with some Vishnu-tattva powers.

 

Shakytavesha avatars are not jiva and are not Vishnu, they are combination of both.

 

Ordinarily, the jiva cannot attain any powers to the level of Vishnu, but in the case of shaktyavesha there is some function of Vishnu working through the jiva.

When Vishnu works through a jiva that is shaktyavesha avatar and is not ordinary jiva.

In effect, a jiva can be empowered to function as Vishnu tattva.

That is shaktyavesha avatar.

At that time the jiva is not acting as a jiva but as Vishnu tattva or Siva tattva.

 

These Shaktyavesha avatars do not have all the powers of Vishnu, but some powers of Vishnu are invested in them.

 

The Bhagavatam describes several of these shaktyavesha avatars who were jivas that became empowered with some powers otherwise only found in Vishnu.

 

That bottom line is that no Siva is a jiva inasmuch as Siva is shaktyavesha avatar of Lord Vishnu.

Shaktyavesha avatars do not fit in the jiva category.

[shiva]

Posted by Sonic Yogi

No, you are wrong.

The husband of Parvati, Lord Siva is not a jiva.

Siva is always in connection with Mahamaya, but that does not make him a jiva.

When Siva is not in touch with Mahamaya, then he is the original Sadasiva who is the husband of Rama-devi, Lord Vishnu and is not the Sadasiva expansion that is in connection with Mahamaya.

The second Sadasiva who is the consort of Mahamaya is the combination of Vishnu-tattva and Jiva tattva as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

The second Sadasiva who is the expansion of the Vishnu Sadasiva is always in contact with Mahamaya and sometimes acts as Vishnu-tattva, as in his preserving the universe and protecting it from the kalakuta, and sometimes act in capacity of jiva to destroy the universe.

The second Sadasiva who consorts with Mahamaya is this combination of Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

Srila Prabhupada refers to him as shaktyavesha avatar which means a jiva who has been empowered with some Vishnu-tattva powers.

Shakytavesha avatars are not jiva and are not Vishnu, they are combination of both.

Ordinarily, the jiva cannot attain any powers to the level of Vishnu, but in the case of shaktyavesha there is some function of Vishnu working through the jiva.

When Vishnu works through a jiva that is shaktyavesha avatar and is not ordinary jiva.

In effect, a jiva can be empowered to function as Vishnu tattva.

That is shaktyavesha avatar.

At that time the jiva is not acting as a jiva but as Vishnu tattva or Siva tattva.

These Shaktyavesha avatars do not have all the powers of Vishnu, but some powers of Vishnu are invested in them.

The Bhagavatam describes several of these shaktyavesha avatars who were jivas that became empowered with some powers otherwise only found in Vishnu.

 

 

 

svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara

ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara

 

svamsa-vistara -- catur-vyuha, avatara-gana

vibhinnamsa jiva -- tanra saktite ganana

 

sei vibbhinamsa jiva - dui ta' prakara

eka - "nitya-mukta," eka - "nityasamsara"

 

Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma

 

Expansions of His personal self -- like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva -- descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities (vibhinnamsa jiva). Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies

 

The living entities (vibhinnamsa jiva) are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned.

[Sonic Yogi]

Shiva wrote:

Originally Posted by shiva

Vishnu tattva means one thing only in Gaudiya theology: Vishnu means all-pervading; Vishnu-tattva refers to swamsa or plenary expansions of Krishna, that is they are all the same all-pervading supreme Lord. Vishnu-tattva is only applicable to someone who is all-pervading, only applicable to God.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lord Siva is all pervading within the universe.

That is your mistake to think that Lord Siva is not all pervading.

Even Lord Brahma is all pervading.

 

Sorry to burst your misconception.

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.21

 

śrī-prajāpataya ūcuḥ

 

deva-deva mahā-deva

bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana

trāhi naḥ śaraṇāpannāḿs

trailokya-dahanād viṣāt

 

SYNONYMS

 

śrī-prajāpatayaḥ ūcuḥ — the prajāpatis said; deva-deva — O Lord Mahādeva, best of the demigods; mahā-deva — O great demigod; bhūta-ātman — O life and soul of everyone in this world; bhūta-bhāvana — O the cause of the happiness and flourishing of all of them; trāhi — deliver; naḥ — us; śaraṇa-āpannān — who have taken shelter at your lotus feet; trailokya — of the three worlds; dahanāt — which is causing the burning; viṣāt — from this poison.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all demigods, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

 

PURPORT

 

Since Lord Śiva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Viṣṇu? Lord Brahmā creates, and Lord Śiva annihilates, but both Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva are incarnations of Lord Viṣṇu and are known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Śiva, actually Lord Viṣṇu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Śiva is meant for destruction. Lord Śiva is one of the īśvaras, or the controllers known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Viṣṇu.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

So, these are all slokas in 8th Canto in regards to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, who drank the ocean of poison to save the universe.

 

These verses were not offered to Sadasiva of Vaikuntha, but to Lord Siva in this universe.

 

Srila Prabhupada says clearly here that Lord Siva is empowered with all-pervading and has the qualities of Lord Vishnu as such.

[ranjeetmore]

Shiva...

 

Visvanatha chakravarti thakura is not enough for Sonic yogi...

 

You are absolutely right.

 

Sadashiva-Visnu tattva.(described in vayu purana as being in vaikuntha.Described in rama caritamanasa as The great Lord,The all Pervading Lord,The Lord who is indifferent from Hari,etc.)

 

Shiva-expansion of sadashiva in the material lord.

 

***

 

"Sadashiva is the Lord of Ramadevi " ???

 

Where is this coming from ??????

[ranjeetmore]

and btw how many sadashivas are there according to you ????

 

Sambhu,the reflection of Karanarnavshayi Visnu's gaze,is not sadashiva.

His address is Paravyoma,Vaikuntha.

[Sonic Yogi]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.22

 

tvam ekaḥ sarva-jagata

īśvaro bandha-mokṣayoḥ

taḿ tvām arcanti kuśalāḥ

prapannārti-haraḿ gurum

 

SYNONYMS

 

tvam ekaḥ — Your Lordship is indeed; sarva-jagataḥ — of the three worlds; īśvaraḥ — the controller; bandha-mokṣayoḥ — of both bondage and liberation; tam — that controller; tvām arcanti — worship you; kuśalāḥ — persons who want good fortune; prapanna-ārti-haram — who can mitigate all the distresses of a sheltered devotee; gurum — you who act as a good advisor to all fallen souls.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, you are the cause of bondage and liberation of the entire universe because you are its ruler. Those who are advanced in spiritual consciousness surrender unto you, and therefore you are the cause of mitigating their distresses, and you are also the cause of their liberation. We therefore worship Your Lordship.

 

PURPORT

 

Actually Lord Viṣṇu maintains and accomplishes all good fortune. If one has to take shelter of Lord Viṣṇu, why should the demigods take shelter of Lord Śiva? They did so because Lord Viṣṇu acts through Lord Śiva in the creation of the material world. Lord Śiva acts on behalf of Lord Viṣṇu. When the Lord says in Bhagavad-gītā (14.4) that He is the father of all living entities (ahaḿ bīja-pradaḥ pitā), this refers to actions performed by Lord Viṣṇu through Lord Śiva. Lord Viṣṇu is always unattached to material activities, and when material activities are to be performed, Lord Viṣṇu performs them through Lord Śiva. Lord Śiva is therefore worshiped on the level of Lord Viṣṇu. When Lord Viṣṇu is untouched by the external energy He is Lord Viṣṇu, but when He is in touch with the external energy, He appears in His feature as Lord Śiva.

[Sonic Yogi]

Prayers to Lord Siva:

 

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.23

 

guṇa-mayyā sva-śaktyāsya

sarga-sthity-apyayān vibho

dhatse yadā sva-dṛg bhūman

brahma-viṣṇu-śivābhidhām

 

SYNONYMS

 

guṇa-mayyā — acting in three modes of activity; sva-śaktyā — by the external energy of Your Lordship; asya — of this material world; sarga-sthiti-apyayān — creation, maintenance and annihilation; vibho — O lord; dhatse — you execute; yadā — when; sva-dṛk — you manifest yourself; bhūman — O great one; brahma-viṣṇu-śiva-abhidhām — as Lord Brahmā, Lord Viṣṇu or Lord Śiva.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, you are self-effulgent and supreme. You create this material world by your personal energy, and you assume the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara when you act in creation, maintenance and annihilation.

 

PURPORT

 

This prayer is actually offered to Lord Viṣṇu, the puruṣa, who in His incarnations as the guṇa-avatāras assumes the names Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara.

[Sonic Yogi]

the Prajapatis prayed to Lord Brahma

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.24

 

tvaḿ brahma paramaḿ guhyaḿ

sad-asad-bhāva-bhāvanam

nānā-śaktibhir ābhātas

tvam ātmā jagad-īśvaraḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

tvam — Your Lordship; brahma — impersonal Brahman; paramam — supreme; guhyam — confidential; sat-asat-bhāva-bhāvanam — the cause of varieties of creation, its cause and effect; nānā-śaktibhiḥ — with varieties of potencies; ābhātaḥ — manifest; tvam — you are; ātmā — the Supersoul; jagat-īśvaraḥ — the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

TRANSLATION

 

You are the cause of all causes, the self-effulgent, inconceivable, impersonal Brahman, which is originally Parabrahman. You manifest various potencies in this cosmic manifestation.

 

PURPORT

 

This prayer is offered to the impersonal Brahman, which consists of the effulgent rays of Parabrahman. Parabrahman is the Supreme Personality of Godhead (paraḿ brahma paraḿ dhāma pavitraḿ paramaḿ bhavān [bg. 10.12]). When Lord Śiva is worshiped as Parabrahman, the worship is meant for Lord Viṣṇu.

[Sonic Yogi]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.29

 

mukhāni pañcopaniṣadas taveśa

yais triḿśad-aṣṭottara-mantra-vargaḥ

yat tac chivākhyaḿ paramātma-tattvaḿ

deva svayaḿ-jyotir avasthitis te

 

SYNONYMS

 

mukhāni — faces; pañca — five; upaniṣadaḥ — Vedic literatures; tava — your; īśa — O lord; yaiḥ — by which; triḿśat-aṣṭa-uttara-mantra-vargaḥ — in the category of thirty-eight important Vedic mantras; yat — that; tat — as it is; śiva-ākhyam — celebrated by the name Śiva; paramātma-tattvam — which ascertain the truth about Paramātmā; deva — O lord; svayam-jyotiḥ — self-illuminated; avasthitiḥ — situation; te — of Your Lordship.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O lord, the five important Vedic mantras are represented by your five faces, from which the thirty-eight most celebrated Vedic mantras have been generated. Your Lordship, being celebrated as Lord Śiva, is self-illuminated. You are directly situated as the supreme truth, known as Paramātmā.

 

PURPORT

 

The five mantras mentioned in this connection are as follows: (1) Puruṣa, (2) Aghora, (3) Sadyojāta, (4) Vāmadeva, and (5) Īśāna. These five mantras are within the category of thirty-eight special Vedic mantras chanted by Lord Śiva, who is therefore celebrated as Śiva or Mahādeva. Another reason why Lord Śiva is called Śiva, which means "all-auspicious," is that he is self-illuminated, exactly like Lord Viṣṇu, who is the Paramātmā. Because Lord Śiva is directly an incarnation of Lord Viṣṇu, he is situated as Lord Viṣṇu's direct representative. This fact is corroborated by a Vedic mantra: patiḿ viśvasyātmeśvaraḿ śāśvatam. śivam acyutam. The Supersoul is called by many names, of which Maheśvara, Śiva and Acyuta are especially mentioned.

[Sonic Yogi]

Even Lord Vishnu does not understand the Brahmajyoti.

Only Lord Siva can comprehend it.

Vishnu in his form as Lord Siva comprehends the Brahmajyoti, but Lord Vishnu does not.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.31

 

na te giri-trākhila-loka-pāla-

viriñca-vaikuṇṭha-surendra-gamyam

jyotiḥ paraḿ yatra rajas tamaś ca

sattvaḿ na yad brahma nirasta-bhedam

 

SYNONYMS

 

na — not; te — of Your Lordship; giri-tra — O King of the mountains; akhila-loka-pāla — all the directors of departments of material activities; viriñca — Lord Brahmā; vaikuṇṭha — Lord Viṣṇu; sura-indra — the King of heaven; gamyam — they can understand; jyotiḥ — effulgence; param — transcendental; yatra — wherein; rajaḥ — the mode of passion; tamaḥ ca — and the mode of ignorance; sattvam — the mode of goodness; na — not; yat brahma — which is impersonal Brahman; nirasta-bhedam — without distinction between demigods and human beings.

 

TRANSLATION

 

O Lord Girīśa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahmā, Lord Viṣṇu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.

 

PURPORT

 

The brahmajyoti is actually the effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As stated in Brahma-saḿhitā (5.40):

 

yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi-

 

koṭiṣv aśeṣa-vasudhādi-vibhūti-bhinnam

 

tad brahma niṣkalam anantam aśeṣa-bhūtaḿ

 

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

 

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is endowed with great power. The glowing effulgence of His transcendental form is the impersonal Brahman, which is absolute, complete and unlimited and which displays the varieties of countless planets, with their different opulences, in millions and millions of universes." Although the impersonal feature of the Absolute is an expansion of the rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He does not need to take care of the impersonalists who enter the brahmajyoti. Kṛṣṇa says in Bhagavad-gītā (9.4), mayā tatam idaḿ sarvaḿ jagad avyakta-mūrtinā: "In My impersonal feature I pervade this entire universe." Thus the avyakta-mūrti, the impersonal feature, is certainly an expansion of Kṛṣṇa's energy. Māyāvādīs, who prefer to merge into this Brahman effulgence, worship Lord Śiva. The mantras referred to in text 29 are called mukhāni pañcopaniṣadas taveśa. Māyāvādīs take all these mantras seriously in worshiping Lord Śiva. These mantras are as follows: (1) tat puruṣāya vidmahe śāntyai, (2) mahā-devāya dhīmahi vidyāyai, (3) tan no rudraḥ pratiṣṭhāyai, (4) pracodayāt dhṛtyai, (5) aghorebhyas tamā. .., (6) atha ghorebhyo mohā. .., (7) aghorebhyo rakṣā. .., (8) aghoratarebhyo nidrā. .., (9) sarvebhyaḥ sarva-vyādhyai, (10) sarva-sarvebhyo mṛtyave, (11) namas te 'stu kṣudhā. .., (12) rudra-rūpebhyas tṛṣṇā. .., (13) vāmadevāya rajā. .., (14) jyeṣṭhāya svāhā. .., (15) śreṣṭhāya ratyai, (16) rudrāya kalyāṇyai, (17) kālāya kāmā. .., (18) kala-vikaraṇāya sandhinyai, (19) bala-vikaraṇāya kriyā. .., (20) balāya vṛddhyai, (21) balacchāyā. .., (22) pramathanāya dhātryai, (23) sarva-bhūta-damanāya bhrāmaṇyai, (24) manaḥ-śoṣiṇyai, (25) unmanāya jvarā. .., (26) sadyojātaḿ prapadyāmi siddhyai, (27) sadyojātāya vai namaḥ ṛddhyai, (28) bhave dityai, (29) abhave lakṣmyai, (30) nātibhave medhā. .., (31) bhajasva māḿ kāntyai, (32) bhava svadhā. .., (33) udbhavāya prabhā. .., (34) īśānaḥ sarva-vidyānāḿ śaśinyai, (35) īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānām abhaya-dā. .. [bg. 18.61], (36) brahmādhipatir brahmaṇodhipatir brahman brahmeṣṭa-dā. .., (37) śivo me astu marīcyai, (38) sadāśivaḥ jvālinyai.

 

The impersonal Brahman is unknown even to the other directors of the material creation, including Lord Brahmā, Lord Indra and even Lord Viṣṇu. This does not mean, however, that Lord Viṣṇu is not omniscient. Lord Viṣṇu is omniscient, but He does not need to understand what is going on in His all-pervading expansion. Therefore in Bhagavad-gītā the Lord says that although everything is an expansion of Him (mayā tatam idaḿ sarvam), He does not need to take care of everything (na cāhaḿ teṣv avasthitaḥ), since there are various directors like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva and Indra.

[Sonic Yogi]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.33

 

ye tv ātma-rāma-gurubhir hṛdi cintitāńghri-

dvandvaḿ carantam umayā tapasābhitaptam

katthanta ugra-paruṣaḿ nirataḿ śmaśāne

te nūnam ūtim avidaḿs tava hāta-lajjāḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

ye — persons who; tu — indeed; ātma-rāma-gurubhiḥ — by those who are self-satisfied and who are considered to be spiritual masters of the world; hṛdi — within the heart; cintita-ańghri-dvandvam — thinking of your two lotus feet; carantam — moving; umayā — with your consort, Umā; tapasā abhitaptam — highly advanced through practice of austerity and penance; katthante — criticize your acts; ugra-paruṣam — not a gentle person; niratam — always; śmaśāne — in the crematorium; te — such persons; nūnam — indeed; ūtim — such activities; avidan — not knowing; tava — your activities; hāta-lajjāḥ — shameless.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

 

PURPORT

 

Lord Śiva is the topmost Vaiṣṇava (vaiṣṇavānāḿ yathā śambhuḥ). It is therefore said, vaiṣṇavera kriyā-mudrā vijñe nā bujhaya. Even the most intelligent person cannot understand what a Vaiṣṇava like Lord Śiva is doing or how he is acting. Those who are conquered by lusty desires and anger cannot estimate the glories of Lord Śiva, whose position is always transcendental. In all the activities associated with lusty desires, Lord Śiva is an implement of ātma-rāma. Ordinary persons, therefore, should not try to understand Lord Śiva and his activities. One who tries to criticize the activities of Lord Śiva is shameless.

[Sonic Yogi]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.34

 

tat tasya te sad-asatoḥ parataḥ parasya

nāñjaḥ svarūpa-gamane prabhavanti bhūmnaḥ

brahmādayaḥ kim uta saḿstavane vayaḿ tu

tat-sarga-sarga-viṣayā api śakti-mātram

 

SYNONYMS

 

tat — therefore; tasya — of that; te — of Your Lordship; sat-asatoḥ — of the living entities, moving and not moving; parataḥ — transcendentally situated; parasya — very difficult to understand; na — nor; añjaḥ — as it is; svarūpa-gamane — to approach your reality; prabhavanti — it is possible; bhūmnaḥ — O great one; brahma-ādayaḥ — even such persons as Lord Brahmā; kim uta — what to speak of others; saḿstavane — in offering prayers; vayam tu — as far as we are concerned; tat — of you; sarga-sarga-viṣayāḥ — creations of the creation; api — although; śakti-mātram — to our ability.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Even personalities like Lord Brahmā and other demigods cannot understand your position, for you are beyond the moving and nonmoving creation. Since no one can understand you in truth, how can one offer you prayers? It is impossible. As far as we are concerned, we are creatures of Lord Brahmā's creation. Under the circumstances, therefore, we cannot offer you adequate prayers, but as far as our ability allows, we have expressed our feelings.

[Sonic Yogi]

In other words, Shiva, you need to study 8th Canto Srimad Bhagavatam and save yourself from your silly idea that Lord Siva is ever a jiva.

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/8/7/en

[shiva]

Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi

Shiva wrote:

Originally Posted by shiva

Vishnu tattva means one thing only in Gaudiya theology: Vishnu means all-pervading; Vishnu-tattva refers to swamsa or plenary expansions of Krishna, that is they are all the same all-pervading supreme Lord. Vishnu-tattva is only applicable to someone who is all-pervading, only applicable to God.

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lord Siva is all pervading within the universe.

That is your mistake to think that Lord Siva is not all pervading.

Even Lord Brahma is all pervading.

 

Sorry to burst your misconception.

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.21

 

śrī-prajāpataya ūcuḥ

 

deva-deva mahā-deva

bhūtātman bhūta-bhāvana

trāhi naḥ śaraṇāpannāḿs

trailokya-dahanād viṣāt

 

SYNONYMS

 

śrī-prajāpatayaḥ ūcuḥ — the prajāpatis said; deva-deva — O Lord Mahādeva, best of the demigods; mahā-deva — O great demigod; bhūta-ātman — O life and soul of everyone in this world; bhūta-bhāvana — O the cause of the happiness and flourishing of all of them; trāhi — deliver; naḥ — us; śaraṇa-āpannān — who have taken shelter at your lotus feet; trailokya — of the three worlds; dahanāt — which is causing the burning; viṣāt — from this poison.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The prajāpatis said: O greatest of all demigods, Mahādeva, Supersoul of all living entities and cause of their happiness and prosperity, we have come to the shelter of your lotus feet. Now please save us from this fiery poison, which is spreading all over the three worlds.

 

PURPORT

 

Since Lord Śiva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Viṣṇu? Lord Brahmā creates, and Lord Śiva annihilates, but both Lord Brahmā and Lord Śiva are incarnations of Lord Viṣṇu and are known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Śiva, actually Lord Viṣṇu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Śiva is meant for destruction. Lord Śiva is one of the īśvaras, or the controllers known as śaktyāveśa-avatāras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Viṣṇu.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

So, these are all slokas in 8th Canto in regards to Lord Siva, the husband of Bhavani, who drank the ocean of poison to save the universe.

 

These verses were not offered to Sadasiva of Vaikuntha, but to Lord Siva in this universe.

 

Srila Prabhupada says clearly here that Lord Siva is empowered with all-pervading and has the qualities of Lord Vishnu as such.

[primate]

"They [Lord Brahma and Lord Siva] are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Visnu, who [Lord Visnu] is actually all-pervading in their [Lord Brahma's and Lord Siva's] activities."

 

So, Lord Visnu pervades the activities of Lord Brahma and Lord Siva..

[Sonic Yogi]

Originally Posted by shiva

You don't understanding this statement:

They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities.

It says Vishnu is all-pervading and empowers Brahma and Shiva, it doesn't say Brahma and Shiva are all-pervading. Only God is all-pervading.

 

 

 

 

You seem to have missed the part that says "They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu"

They are endowed with special power like that of Lord Vishnu.

If "Vishnu" means all pervading then having "special power like Lord Vishnu", means all-pervading.

 

All the guna-avatars are all-pervading in the universe.

Otherwise, how does Lord Brahma and Lord Siva hear the prayers of their devotees?

 

It is elementary siddhanta that all the guna-avatars are all pervading in the universe.

Only a dimwit would not know that.

[primate]

Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi

You seem to have missed the part that says "They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Viṣṇu"

They are endowed with special power like that of Lord Vishnu.

If "Vishnu" means all pervading then having "special power like Lord Vishnu", means all-pervading.

All the guna-avatars are all-pervading in the universe.

Otherwise, how does Lord Brahma and Lord Siva hear the prayers of their devotees?

It is elementary siddhanta that all the guna-avatars are all pervading in the universe.

Only a dimwit would not know that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You seem to have missed the part that says "like that of Lord Visnu". This power is not the same; it's not 'all-pervasiveness'..

[Sonic Yogi]

Originally Posted by primate

You seem to have missed the part that says "like that of Lord Visnu". This power is not the same; it's not 'all-pervasiveness'..

 

 

 

 

 

then you are saying that they their power is UNLIKE that of Lord Vishnu.

you just contradicted Srila Prabhupada who says they have power LIKE Lord Vishnu.

If they are not all-pervasive, they are not LIKE Lord Vishnu.

[primate]

Originally Posted by Sonic Yogi

then you are saying that they their power is UNLIKE that of Lord Vishnu.

you just contradicted Srila Prabhupada who says they have power LIKE Lord Vishnu.

If they are not all-pervasive, they are not LIKE Lord Vishnu

 

 

 

 

Prabhupada didn't say that They (Lord Brahma and Lord Siva) are endowed with a special power equal to that of Lord Visnu. He used the term 'like', which indicates a difference. Something that is different from all-pervading, cannot be all-pervading (or God)..

[raghu]

Originally Posted by shiva

In the Bhagavatam and other sastra we can see the story of the Mohini avatar of Vishnu clarify the position of Parvati's husband as not being God:

http://vedabase.net/sb/8/12/en1

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with the conclusion of this - Lord Shiva cannot be God because he fell under the maya of Lord Vishnu.

 

But what about the quotes from Bhagavata 8.7 which Sonic pointed out in which this Lord Shiva is addressed as "Sadashiva?" If Sadashiva and shiva are two different beings, one being Vishnu-tattva and other a jiva, then why does the Bhagavata fail to distinguish between them here?

[Sonic Yogi]

Srila Prabhupada states in Bhagavatam that Lord Siva is neither Vishnu tattva or jiva tattva, but is some form of entity between the two.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.12.39

 

ko nu me 'titaren māyāḿ

viṣaktas tvad-ṛte pumān

tāḿs tān visṛjatīḿ bhāvān

dustarām akṛtātmabhiḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

kaḥ — what; nu — indeed; me — My; atitaret — can surpass; māyām — illusory energy; viṣaktaḥ — attached to material sense enjoyment; tvat-ṛte — except for you; pumān — person; tān — such conditions; tān — unto the materially attached persons; visṛjatīm — in surpassing; bhāvān — reactions of material activities; dustarām — very difficult to surmount; akṛta-ātmabhiḥ — by persons unable to control their senses.

 

TRANSLATION

 

My dear Lord Śambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount.

 

PURPORT

 

Of the three chief demigods — Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara — all but Viṣṇu are under the influence of māyā. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta, they are described as māyī, which means "under māyā's influence." But even though Lord Śiva associates with māyā, he is not influenced. The living entities are affected by māyā, but although Lord Śiva apparently associates with māyā, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Śiva are swayed by māyā. Lord Śiva is therefore neither viṣṇu-tattva nor jīva-tattva. He is between the two.

[raghu]

 

Srila Prabhupada states in Bhagavatam that Lord Siva is neither Vishnu tattva or jiva tattva, but is some form of entity between the two.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.12.39

 

ko nu me 'titaren māyāḿ

viṣaktas tvad-ṛte pumān

tāḿs tān visṛjatīḿ bhāvān

dustarām akṛtātmabhiḥ

 

SYNONYMS

 

kaḥ — what; nu — indeed; me — My; atitaret — can surpass; māyām — illusory energy; viṣaktaḥ — attached to material sense enjoyment; tvat-ṛte — except for you; pumān — person; tān — such conditions; tān — unto the materially attached persons; visṛjatīm — in surpassing; bhāvān — reactions of material activities; dustarām — very difficult to surmount; akṛta-ātmabhiḥ — by persons unable to control their senses.

 

TRANSLATION

 

My dear Lord Śambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount.

 

PURPORT

 

Of the three chief demigods — Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara — all but Viṣṇu are under the influence of māyā. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta, they are described as māyī, which means "under māyā's influence." But even though Lord Śiva associates with māyā, he is not influenced. The living entities are affected by māyā, but although Lord Śiva apparently associates with māyā, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Śiva are swayed by māyā. Lord Śiva is therefore neither viṣṇu-tattva nor jīva-tattva. He is between the two.

 

If Shiva is in a category of his own, neither being Brahman nor jiva, then why not just say that? Why do gaudiyas say he is a "transformation" of Vishnu? This just brings up so many problems as I had mentioned previously.