Babaji Dharma

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna,

 

I was just wondering if anyone could shed light on Babaji Dharma, what is the history of the Babaji vesh, what is it's position compared to Varnashrama Dharma - it seems to be outside Varnashrama.

 

varnashrama cara vata purushena para puman

visnur aradyate pantha nanyat tad tosha karanam

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One must be situated in the institution of the four varnas and asramas.

 

Yet we see that many Babaji's are deep in bhajan, highly advanced and accomplished bhaktas.

 

What are the rites of accepting Babaji vesh, when is it appropriate to consider oneself Babaji?

[Sonic Yogi]

Just abandon all these artificial social designations and become avadhuta.

There is no Vedic society in the modern world, so all these so-called varna and ashrama designations are artificial and false imitations of real Varnashrama.

 

Leave all these material designations to the materially attached and just follow the avadhuta path of neglecting all these artificial social orders.

 

You don't need any false varna or ashrama to get attached to.

 

Just cultivate love of Krishna and forget about all those material designations.

[Gadadhara dasa (rus)]

Being in deep bhajan has nothing to do with being within or outside varnashrama. "Babaji" is similar to sannyas, but is a recent innovation in hindu-dharma:

 

The word baba is Arabic, and means 'father', the suffix 'ji' is an Islamic suffix of respect. Muslims conquered Northern India in the early middle ages and inserted their own words into the local languages. Hindi language contains 70% Arabic/Persian words, baba being taken over from the Arabic for 'daddy'. When the Bengali Vaishnavas began to arrive in Braj in the 16th century the Brajabasis began to address them with babaji, a title which the Bengalis later, in the 18th or 19th century, formalized as the title for their sannyasis.

 

This is from blogspot of Advaitadas.

[Guest guest]

Wow, thankyou both for your replies. The Arabic connection sheds light on the origin of the term. Thankyou.

 

Yes, it seems that i am being pushed onto the Avadhuta path. After some years of solitary study, i spent some time living on an ISKCON Varnashrama Farm project, trying to reestablish Varnashrama in the modern world. The project failed, collapsed; this was about a year and half ago. Since then i've been relishing solitary Bhajan and Study. While i want to do the right thing, there is certainly an attraction to continuing this secluded lifetsyle, although it would be better to do this in a holy Dham. (Staying at Mathura is after all one limb of panca anga Bhakti) My attraction is to Vrindavan over all other Dhama's and specifically Radha Kund. Who wouldn't be attracted to that supreme abode - Radha Kund!?!

 

My problem is getting the money to get there and where to stay when i do. Any suggestions? I'm a penniless pauper - but generally i think this is a great boon. :-)

 

Thankyou all again,

 

Radhe Radhe

[Gadadhara dasa (rus)]

Re-establishing varnashrama in modern world? Re-establishing where? In CEE? In Western Europe? Who told varnashrama ever existed in those parts? Your ISKCON co-believers? Varnashrama is part of hindu-dharma and "re-establishing varnashrama" is a brandname as a part of one business plan. Its promotion has nothing to do with Chaitanya religion.

 

Pushing into solitary bhajan path? That may (or may not) be another illusion and can potentially lead to a personal disaster. Think about this. If the failure in ISKCON varnashrama project was followed by the sense of upset, this means the classical chain: seeing sense objects, getting attached etc. At the end you have krodha, whose milder form is sense of upset. Then comes illusion, under which you turned to secluded lifestyle. Now you think that your path is a solitary bhajan. In case you had an error in the beggining of your calculation, how can your result be correct?

 

Instead, why don't you become a secret yogi? Get yourself a job, live like other people do, but be devoted to God all the time. You will thus verify if your desire to do solitary bhajan path is real. As a side effect, you will make some money to go where you want to go. But eventually you may find peace inside yourself and find out that you do not need to go anywhere.

 

You cannot be pushed to do avadhuta path. If you were adhakaravan for avadhuta path, you would flush your passport down the toilet, take a rucksack with few belongings and walk through the borders without asking any suggestions anywhere on the Internet. You don't need any babaji vesh initiation to become a sadhu.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Instead, why don't you become a secret yogi? Get yourself a job, live like other people do, but be devoted to God all the time. You will thus verify if your desire to do solitary bhajan path is real. As a side effect, you will make some money to go where you want to go. But eventually you may find peace inside yourself and find out that you do not need to go anywhere.

 

That is pretty good advice. Over the last 30 years, almost everyone who left everything to do sadhana in Radhakunda found it wasn't what they expected. Radhakunda is a place for highly advanced devotees to continue their spiritual sadhana. Those of us who still have likings and dislikings (probably all of us) should practice more in our own natural environments at first. Sadhana won't be easier by going to Radhakunda, it will in fact be harder unless our minds are conquered. Make a radhakunda around you instead.

[Guest guest]

All these arguments seem to be nullified by seeking shelter of Guru.

 

Whatever Guru says to do, i will do. But since he is in India then that's where i'm going for now.

 

Thankyou for your kind advice and support

 

Please pray for me and i'm sure all will be well

 

Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

[rasa_prada]

 

 

Pushing into solitary bhajan path? That may (or may not) be another illusion and can potentially lead to a personal disaster. Think about this. If the failure in ISKCON varnashrama project was followed by the sense of upset, this means the classical chain: seeing sense objects, getting attached etc. At the end you have krodha, whose milder form is sense of upset. Then comes illusion, under which you turned to secluded lifestyle. Now you think that your path is a solitary bhajan...

 

It's like we're exploring the nether end of what was once a genuine spiritual revolution. Perhaps a better course would be to organize plain-clothes harinam-sankirtan and hand out Sunday feast cards to your own apartment.

 

Wasn't that how it all began?

[Sonic Yogi]

 

That is pretty good advice. Over the last 30 years, almost everyone who left everything to do sadhana in Radhakunda found it wasn't what they expected. Radhakunda is a place for highly advanced devotees to continue their spiritual sadhana. Those of us who still have likings and dislikings (probably all of us) should practice more in our own natural environments at first. Sadhana won't be easier by going to Radhakunda, it will in fact be harder unless our minds are conquered. Make a radhakunda around you instead.

That is so very well stated.

Very sincere and very sweet.

Thank-you for the very kind sharing of this excellent thought.

[aranya baba]

It's a great aspiration to want to come to Radha Kunda to do bhajan, but I am curious. What does your guru say about it? I wouldn't recommend coming to the Dham without the blessings of your guru. Also, why do you think that you need to accept the vows of a babaji do come to Radha Kunda for bhajan? Bhajan can be done as a grihasta and as a single, unmarried person. I don't see any big advantage to taking babaji vesh for a westerner. It can have a more practical value if you are an Indian and need to get out of your social/family constraints. If you don't even know where to stay at Radha Kunda you obviously haven't spent much time there. Get your guru's blessings and come to the Dham with some caution before jumping into a hasty decision is my best advice.

[Guest guest]

haha, i never actually mean't about me taking Babaji vesh. I just wondered the history of the term.

 

I'm trying to be a brahmacari and am coming to the Dham beginning of August. All glories to you all!

 

Radhe Radhe

[aranya baba]

 

haha, i never actually mean't about me taking Babaji vesh. I just wondered the history of the term.

 

I'm trying to be a brahmacari and am coming to the Dham beginning of August. All glories to you all!

 

Radhe Radhe

For some reason I took your words, "being pushed to the avadhuta path" to be your way of referring to becoming a babaji. Sorry for not reading you clearly. That seems to beg the question, what do you mean by the avadhuta path?

 

I hope you have a blissful trip to the Dham in August.

[Kulapavana]

From a historical perspective, babajis are a relateively recent category. There is no mention of babajis in the medieval Vaishnava literature. Seems like they were formalized as an 'order' in the late 18th or even early 19th century.

[Guest guest]

Once when Jagadananda Pandit went out for begging alms, Nityananda Prabhu broke Sri Caitanya's Sanyas Danda.

 

Who can understand the mind of Sri Nityananda?

[aranya baba]

 

From a historical perspective, babajis are a relateively recent category. There is no mention of babajis in the medieval Vaishnava literature. Seems like they were formalized as an 'order' in the late 18th or even early 19th century.

 

Correct, one doesn't hear of babaji vesh before the early 19th century. You can see it in the guru pranalis of various Vaisnavas too. The disciplic lines were generally carried on by Prabhu Vamsh Goswamis/inis...you won't see anyone with the title, "babaji."

[Narasingh]

As aranya baba noted, Goswami or Thakur were the original titles for Vaishnava preeminents.

 

chaitanyakrpa das: Your interest in residence at Radha Kunda should be without interest in your bodily necessities. It is the abode of the most advanced saranagatas. Your question of where to stay indicates needed saranagati. Practice this and you may find yourself being placed in Radha Kunda rather than going there on your own. After all, isn't it true that God knows better what's best for us than we do?

[Guest guest]

True, Krsna knows what's best for us and one who is not surrendered does not always accept.

 

I see no issue with seeking shelter for the body for the advancement of Krsna consciousness. The body also needs water, why should one have to give up all maintainence of his life? The consciousness is what's important, the body belongs to Krsna so take good care of it for service. I'm not going to Radha-Kund to rot!

[Narasingh]

Personally, I would contemplate residence at Radha Kunda if I were confident that Krsna will supply me whatever was necessary for my existence...rakshishyatiti visvasah.

 

You acknowledge that Radha Kunda is, ontologically, the most sacred place of existence. There are many gradations of sanctity in the dham, with Radha Kunda being the utmost, right?

 

Thus, while we accept that the body belongs to Krsna, there are different gradations of acceptance, with complete surrender to Krsna being the most high. To think that you will control whether or not you will rot at Radha Kund is an indication of your level of surrender. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Obviously, if we want the best, we must pay the price. Things of real value do not come cheaply. To the degree of our surrender, things shall be revealed.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Obviously, if we want the best, we must pay the price. Things of real value do not come cheaply. To the degree of our surrender, things shall be revealed.

 

Surrender also means to accept that Krishna's idea of maintaining us may not be our idea of being maintained. He may leave us eating scraps from a garbage, or he may send us into a jail cell in Mathura for not possessing a proper visa, or he may let us leave our bodies with a painful disease while living in the streets in Radha Kunda. In other words don't expect comfort just because we surrender to Him. If someone is not ready to accept whatever difficulties may come (which includes all of the difficulties in this world), then they are not ready for surrendering in the external form. That's why better to practice sadhana first in a natural environment we are accustomed to.

[Narasingh]

Surrender also means to accept that Krishna's idea of maintaining us may not be our idea of being maintained. He may leave us eating scraps from a garbage, or he may send us into a jail cell in Mathura for not possessing a proper visa, or he may let us leave our bodies with a painful disease while living in the streets in Radha Kunda. In other words don't expect comfort just because we surrender to Him. If someone is not ready to accept whatever difficulties may come (which includes all of the difficulties in this world), then they are not ready for surrendering in the external form. That's why better to practice sadhana first in a natural environment we are accustomed to.

Precisely

[ranjeetmore]

i think..from historic accounts..babajis live like beggars...Vamsivat Babaji was found to miserable even to the initiated devotees of Srila Bhakti siddhanta(Bhakti vinoda ???).He appeared mad like and he forbade his devotees to have anything to do with Vamsivat Babaji...He said they should just offer obeisances from afar...

 

***

VARNASRAMA DHARMA.

 

Varnashrama Dharma is kaitva(Srimad Bhagavatam.)Kaitav means fraudulent(misleading).

 

Varnashrama dharma...following it IS NOT NECESSARY/NOT CONDUCIVE for cultivating prema.It is not possible to follow the varnashrama in this age...

 

Anyway...Varnashrama was performed by the mahabhagavatas just to set an example for the people under maya.

 

Actually all the bhagavatas are beyond these vedic rules.Hanuman was a brahmacarya.He still killed crores.

 

Varnashrama is religion of the body.Obviously Brahmanas are much more purer and at a better position to start cultivating prema..but even the worst of the chandala can come to this level by constant remembrance..

[Guest guest]

I agree and also do not agree on the point of Varnashrama.

 

Can you cite references for where this information came from. viz. varnashrama dharma

 

Two verses for you

 

varnasramacara-vata

purusena parah puman

visnur aradhyate pantha

nanyat tat-tosa-karanam

 

“‘The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Visnu, is worshiped by the proper execution of prescribed duties in the system of varna and asrama. There is no other way to satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One must be situated in the institution of the four varnas and asramas.’”

 

Visnu Purana - quoted in Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya 8.58

 

atah pumbhir dvija-srestha

varnasrama-vibhagasah

sv-anusthitasya dharmasya

samsiddhir hari-tosanam

 

“O best among the twice-born, it is therefore concluded that the highest perfection one can achieve by discharging the duties prescribed for one’s own occupation according to caste divisions and orders of life is to please the Personality of Godhead.”

 

While it is certainly true that raganuga bhakti is beyond varnasharama, which is to the most part concerned with the body, It is these vaidhi (rules) which can help us achieve the high and spontaneous level. But of course YOU are all pure bhaktas chanting suddha nama, so there is no need. My query is this: why not accept varnashrama? To say that it is not conducive for cultivating prema is sheer lunacy. If this is the case then why did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada implent the varnashrama system in the Gaudiya Math and International Society for Krsna Conciousness respectively? Why are you unwilling - varnashrama means pure living, which is most conducive to Krsna Prema. Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

"No one can give rapt attention who is not pure in mind, no one can be pure in mind who is not pure in action, no one can be pure in action who is not pure in eating, sleeping, fearing and mating."

 

Of course the soul IS always pure, but still we are contaminated. Ahh nirdvanda! Dvaitadvaita! :-)

 

Srila Prabhupada also writes in the introduction of Srimad Bhagavatam concerning the meeting of Ramananda Raya and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

"When He met Sri Ramananda Raya on the bank of the Godavari, the varnasrama-dharma followed by the Hindus was mentioned by the Lord. Srila Ramananda Raya said that by following the principles of varnasrama-dharma, the system of four castes and four orders of human life, everyone could realize Transcendence. In the opinion of the Lord, the system of varnasrama-dharma is superficial only, and it has very little to do with the highest realization of spiritual values..."

 

"...Raya then suggested renunciation of the varnasrama-dharma and acceptance of devotional service. The Lord did not approve of this suggestion also for the reason that all of a sudden one should not renounce his position, for that may not bring in the desired result."

 

"It was further suggested by Raya that attainment of spiritual realization freed from the material conception of life is the topmost achievement for a living being. The Lord rejected this suggestion also because on the plea of such spiritual realization much havoc has been wrought by unscrupulous persons; therefore all of a sudden this is not possible."

 

"The Raya then suggested sincere association of self-realized souls and hearing submissively the transcendental message of the pastimes of the Personality of Godhead. This suggestion was welcomed by the Lord."

This is the special mercy of Gaura-Nitai; Locana dasa Thakur has sung

 

parama koruna, pahu dui jana

nitai gauracandra

saba avatara-sara siromani

kevala ananda-kanda

 

The two Lords, Nitai-Gauracandra, are very merciful. They are the essence of all incarnations. The specific significance of these incarnations is that They introduced a process of chanting and dancing that is simply joyful.

 

"The specific significance of these incarnations is that prosecuting Their way of self-realization is simply joyful (kevala ananda-kanda), for They introduced chanting and dancing. There are many incarnations, like Lord Räma and even Krsna, who taught Bhagavad-gita, which requires knowledge and understanding. But Lord Caitanya and Nityananda introduced a process that is simply joyful—simply chant and dance."

 

Srila Prabhupada's purport to Sri Sri Gaura-Nityanander Daya by Locana dasa Thakura.

 

Hare Krsna