Shiv Maha Puran doubts

[Mothman]

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and this is my first post. I'm really glad to see there are still so many ppl out there who are interested in rich heritage, vedic knowledge and spiritualism.

I have a question. I have started reading Shiv Maha Puran and the war between Brahma and Vishnu is quite inconsistent with different sources, so is the pillar of fire or Shiv Linga itself.

1) In one source it says Brahma born from a lotus that evolved from Vishnu and trying to know his origin Brahma started to fight with Vishnu.

2) And another source cites as once Brahma was walking and Vishnu ignored him which caused anger in Brahma and fight started eventually.

 

Also when they are fighting in one source it's given that Shiv Linga appeared and they decided to find its limits while another source says a pillar of fire (Lord Shiva himself) appeared when they were fighting for which they both tried to find the limits.

Now, I'm really confused which one is the authentic version. I'm not so good at sanskrit .. can't verify myself.. . Please senior members and any pandits around help me out.

 

Thanks,

Mothman

[sant]

as per my knowledge first one is correct.

but if someone thinks this is wrong then please correct.

[ranjeetmore]

both are wrong.

 

This puran talks how shankara cuts brahma's head,how someone cuts one of her breasts,how Lord Visnu cuts one of His eyes...etc etc.

 

No other purana is so gory and inconsistent.

[ranjeetmore]

it is a tamasic puran.

[Mothman]

ranjeet... can you guide to me an authentic source?

[bhaktajan]

 

 

 

SB 3.12.5

 

Brahmä spoke to his sons after generating them. “My dear sons,” he said, “now generate progeny.” But due to their being attached to Väsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they aimed at liberation, and therefore they expressed their unwillingness.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

The four sons of Brahmä, the Kumäras, declined to become family men even on the request of their great father, Brahmä. Those who are serious about gaining release from material bondage should not be entangled in the false relationship of family bondage.

People may ask how the Kumäras could refuse the orders of Brahmä, who was their father and above all the creator of the universe. The reply is that one who is väsudeva-paräyaëa, or seriously engaged in the devotional service of the Personality of Godhead, Väsudeva, need not care for any other obligation. It is enjoined in the Bhägavatam (11.5.41):

“Anyone who has completely given up all worldly relationships and has taken absolute shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord, who gives us salvation and who alone is fit to be taken shelter of, is no longer a debtor or servant of anyone, including the demigods, forefathers, sages, other living entities, relatives, and members of human society.”

Thus there was nothing wrong in the acts of the Kumäras when they refused their great father’s request that they become family men.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.6

 

On the refusal of the sons to obey the order of their father, there was much anger generated in the mind of Brahmä, which he tried to control and not express.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

Brahmä is the director in charge of the mode of passion of material nature. Therefore it was natural for him to become angry on the refusal of his sons to obey his order. Although the Kumäras were right in such acts of refusal, Brahmä, being absorbed in the mode of passion, could not check his passionate anger. He did not express it, however, because he knew that his sons were far enlightened in spiritual advancement and thus he should not express his anger before them.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.7

 

Although he tried to curb his anger, it came out from between his eyebrows, and a child mixed blue and red was immediately generated.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

The face of anger is the same whether exhibited due to ignorance or knowledge. Although Brahmä tried to curb his anger, he could not do so, even though he is the supreme being. Such anger in its true color came from between the eyebrows of Brahmä as Rudra, in a mixed color of blue (ignorance) and red (passion), because anger is the product of passion and ignorance.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.8

 

After his birth he began to cry: O destiny maker, teacher of the universe, kindly designate my name and place.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.9

 

The all-powerful Brahmä, who was born from the lotus flower, pacified the boy with gentle words, accepting his request, and said: Do not cry. I shall certainly do as you desire.

 

 

 

 

 

 

SB 3.12.10

 

Thereafter Brahmä said: O chief of the demigods, you shall be called by the name Rudra by all people because you have so anxiously cried.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.11

 

My dear boy, I have already selected the following places for your residence: the heart, the senses, the air of life, the sky, the air, the fire, the water, the earth, the sun, the moon and austerity.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

The creation of Rudra from between the eyebrows of Brahmä as the result of his anger, generated from the mode of passion partly touched by ignorance, is very significant. In Bhagavad-gétä (3.37) the principle of Rudra is described. Krodha (anger) is the product of käma (lust), which is the result of the mode of passion.

When lust and hankering are unsatisfied, the element of krodha appears, which is the formidable enemy of the conditioned soul. This most sinful and inimical passion is represented as ahaìkära, or the false egocentric attitude of thinking oneself to be all in all. Such an egocentric attitude on the part of the conditioned soul, who is completely under the control of material nature, is described in Bhagavad-gétä as foolish.

The egocentric attitude is a manifestation of the Rudra principle in the heart, wherein krodha (anger) is generated. This anger develops in the heart and is further manifested through various senses, like the eyes, hands and legs. When a man is angry he expresses such anger with red-hot eyes and sometimes makes a display of clenching his fists or kicking his legs. This exhibition of the Rudra principle is the proof of Rudra’s presence in such places.

When a man is angry he breathes very rapidly, and thus Rudra is represented in the air of life, or in the activities of breathing. When the sky is overcast with dense clouds and roars in anger, and when the wind blows very fiercely, the Rudra principle is manifested, and so also when the sea water is infuriated by the wind it appears in a gloomy feature of Rudra, which is very fearful to the common man. When fire is ablaze we can also experience the presence of Rudra, and when there is an inundation over the earth we can understand that this is also the representation of Rudra.

There are many earthly creatures who constantly represent the Rudra element. The snake, tiger and lion are always representations of Rudra. Sometimes, because of the extreme heat of the sun, there are cases of heatstroke, and due to the extreme coldness created by the moon there are cases of collapse.

There are many sages empowered with the influence of austerity and many yogés, philosophers and renouncers who sometimes exhibit their acquired power under the influence of the Rudra principle of anger and passion.

The great yogé Durväsä, under the influence of this Rudra principle, picked a quarrel with Mahäräja Ambaréña, and a brähmaëa boy exhibited the Rudra principle by cursing the great King Parékñit. When the Rudra principle is exhibited by persons who are not engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the angry person falls down from the peak of his improved position. This is confirmed as follows:

The most lamentable falldown of the impersonalist is due to his false and unreasonable claim of being one with the Supreme. (Bhäg. 10.2.32)

 

 

 

SB 3.12.12

 

Lord Brahmä said: My dear boy Rudra, you have eleven other names: Manyu, Manu, Mahinasa, Mahän, Çiva, Åtadhvaja, Ugraretä, Bhava, Käla, Vämadeva and Dhåtavrata.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.13

 

O Rudra, you also have eleven wives, called the Rudräëés, and they are as follows: Dhé, Dhåti, Rasalä, Umä, Niyut, Sarpi, Ilä, Ambikä, Irävaté, Svadhä and Dékñä.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.14

 

My dear boy, you may now accept all the names and places designated for you and your different wives, and since you are now one of the masters of the living entities, you may increase the population on a large scale.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

Brahmä, as the father of Rudra, selected the wives of his son, his living places, and his names as well. It is natural that one should accept the wife selected by one’s father, just as a son accepts the name given by the father or as he accepts the property offered by the father. That is the general course in increasing the population of the world.

On the other hand, the Kumäras did not accept the offering of their father because they were elevated far beyond the business of generating a great number of sons. As the son can refuse the order of the father for higher purposes, so the father can refuse to maintain his sons in increasing population because of higher purposes.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.15

 

The most powerful Rudra, whose bodily color was blue mixed with red, created many offspring exactly resembling him in features, strength and furious nature.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.16

 

The sons and grandsons generated by Rudra were unlimited in number, and when they assembled together they attempted to devour the entire universe. When Brahmä, the father of the living entities, saw this, he became afraid of the situation.

PURPORT

The generations of Rudra, the incarnation of anger, were so dangerous to the maintenance of universal affairs that even Brahmä, the father of the living entities, became afraid of them. The so-called devotees or followers of Rudra are also a menace. They are sometimes dangerous even to Rudra himself. Descendants of Rudra sometimes make plans to kill Rudra—by the grace of Rudra. That is the nature of his devotees.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.17

 

Brahmä told Rudra: O best among the demigods, there is no need for you to generate living entities of this nature. They have begun to devastate everything on all sides with the fiery flames from their eyes, and they have even attacked me.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.18

 

My dear son, you had better situate yourself in penance, which is auspicious for all living entities and which will bring all benediction upon you. By penance only shall you be able to create the universe as it was before.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

In the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the cosmic manifestation, the three deities Brahmä, Viñëu and Maheçvara, or Çiva, are respectively in charge. Rudra was advised not to destroy while the period of creation and maintenance was going on, but to situate himself in penance and wait for the time of dissolution, when his services would be called for.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.19

 

By penance only can one even approach the Personality of Godhead, who is within the heart of every living entity and at the same time beyond the reach of all senses.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

Rudra was advised by Brahmä to perform penance as an example to his sons and followers that penance is necessary for attaining the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In Bhagavad-gétä it is said that the common mass of people follow the path shown by an authority.

Thus Brahmä, disgusted with the Rudra generations and afraid of being devoured by the increase of population, asked Rudra to stop producing such an unwanted generation and take to penance for attaining the favor of the Supreme Lord.

We find, therefore, in pictures, that Rudra is always sitting in meditation for the attainment of the favor of the Lord. Indirectly, the sons and followers of Rudra are advised to stop the business of annihilation, following the Rudra principle while the peaceful creation of Brahmä is going on.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.20

 

Çré Maitreya said: Thus Rudra, having been ordered by Brahmä, circumambulated his father, the master of the Vedas. Addressing him with words of assent, he entered the forest to perform austere penances.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.21

 

Brahmä, who was empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, thought of generating living entities and begot ten sons for the extension of the generations.

 

 

 

SB 3.12.22

 

Maréci, Atri, Aìgirä, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, Bhågu, Vasiñöha, Dakña, and the tenth son, Närada, were thus born.

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

The whole process of the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the cosmic manifestation is meant to give the conditioned souls a chance to go back home, back to Godhead. Brahmä created Rudra to help him in his creative endeavor, but from the very beginning Rudra began to devour the whole creation, and thus he had to be stopped from such devastating activities.

Brahmä therefore created another set of good children, who were mostly in favor of worldly fruitive activities. He knew very well, however, that without devotional service to the Lord there is hardly any benefit for the conditioned souls, and therefore he at last created his worthy son Närada, who is the supreme spiritual master of all transcendentalists.

Without devotional service to the Lord one cannot make progress in any department of activity, although the path of devotional service is always independent of anything material. Only the transcendental loving service of the Lord can deliver the real goal of life, and thus the service rendered by Çréman Närada Muni is the highest among all the sons of Brahmä.

[jaswant]

HARE KRISHNA BHAKTAJAN !!

 

is rudra the same as shiva shambu sadashiva

or are the different personalaties ? or rather partial

manivestations of one personality who is lets say

sadashiva...who non-different from vishnu

 

yours

jaswant

 

 

 

 

[kaisersose]

 

ranjeet... can you guide to me an authentic source?

 

That is funny. Shiva Purana is a tamasic Purana, so the truth about Shiva cannot be found in the Shiva Purana, but in Vishnu Purana! This is like the British saying Indians are primitive pagans, so to understand real Indian religion, read books on Indian religion written by British authors.

 

Setting this tamasic nonsense aside, all scholars (Indian too) agree that the Shiva Purana is a upa-purana. The Shaiva Maha Purana is actually the Vayu Purana. If we accept this, then whatever version presented in the Vayu is the authentic version. It is ridiculous to look for authentic stories of Shiva in Vaishnava sources - just as silly as looking for Vishnu stories in Shaiva Puranas.

 

Cheers

[hindustani]

Well said Kaisersoseji.

 

That is funny. Shiva Purana is a tamasic Purana, so the truth about Shiva cannot be found in the Shiva Purana, but in Vishnu Purana! This is like the British saying Indians are primitive pagans, so to understand real Indian religion, read books on Indian religion written by British authors.

 

Setting this tamasic nonsense aside, all scholars (Indian too) agree that the Shiva Purana is a upa-purana. The Shaiva Maha Purana is actually the Vayu Purana. If we accept this, then whatever version presented in the Vayu is the authentic version. It is ridiculous to look for authentic stories of Shiva in Vaishnava sources - just as silly as looking for Vishnu stories in Shaiva Puranas.

 

Cheers

[bhaktajan]

 

is rudra the same as shiva shambu sadashiva

or are the different personalaties ? or rather partial

manivestations of one personality who is lets say

sadashiva...who non-different from vishnu

 

yours

jaswant

 

 

 

Sonic yogic has put it nicely:

 

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http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/?p=1143226&postcount=64

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.33

 

TRANSLATION

Exalted, self-satisfied persons who preach to the entire world think of your lotus feet constantly within their hearts. However, when persons who do not know your austerity see you moving with Umā, they misunderstand you to be lusty, or when they see you wandering in the crematorium they mistakenly think that you are ferocious and envious. Certainly they are shameless. They cannot understand your activities.

PURPORT

Lord Śiva is the topmost Vaiṣṇava (vaiṣṇavānāḿ yathā śambhuḥ). It is therefore said, vaiṣṇavera kriyā-mudrā vijñe nā bujhaya. Even the most intelligent person cannot understand what a Vaiṣṇava like Lord Śiva is doing or how he is acting. Those who are conquered by lusty desires and anger cannot estimate the glories of Lord Śiva, whose position is always transcendental. In all the activities associated with lusty desires, Lord Śiva is an implement of ātma-rāma. Ordinary persons, therefore, should not try to understand Lord Śiva and his activities. One who tries to criticize the activities of Lord Śiva is shameless.

 

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http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/?p=1143247&postcount=74

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.12.39

 

TRANSLATION

My dear Lord Śambhu, who within this material world but you can surpass My illusory energy? People are generally attached to sense enjoyment and conquered by its influence. Indeed, the influence of material nature is very difficult for them to surmount.

PURPORT

Of the three chief demigods — Brahmā, Viṣṇu and Maheśvara — all but Viṣṇu are under the influence of māyā. In Caitanya-caritāmṛta, they are described as māyī, which means "under māyā's influence." But even though Lord Śiva associates with māyā, he is not influenced. The living entities are affected by māyā, but although Lord Śiva apparently associates with māyā, he is not affected. In other words, all living entities within this material world except for Lord Śiva are swayed by māyā. Lord Śiva is therefore neither viṣṇu-tattva nor jīva-tattva. He is between the two.

 

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http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/?p=1143863&postcount=89

 

That Siva is a devotee of Krishna is not a mystery.

Even Lord Vishnu is a devotee of Krishna.

Even Lord Balarama, the first expansion of Krishna is a devotee of Krishna.

Krishna is God, all others, even Balarama, Vishnu and Siva are devotees of the Supreme Krsna.

There is ONE God - Krsna.

Everyone, even Balarama, Vishnu and Siva are his servants.

That is the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

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http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/?p=1143949&postcount=100

 

Madhya 20.273 purport:

Quote:

The word svāńga-viśeṣābhāsa-rūpe, indicating the form by which the Lord begets living entities in the material world, is explained herein. He is Lord Śiva. In the Brahma-saḿhitā it is stated that Lord Śiva, who is another form of Mahā-Viṣṇu, is like yogurt. Yogurt is nothing but milk, yet it is not milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva is considered the father of this universe, and material nature is considered the mother. The father and mother are known as Lord Śiva and goddess Durgā. Together, Lord Śiva's genitals and the vagina of goddess Durgā are worshiped as the śiva-lińga. This is the origin of the material creation. Thus Lord Śiva's position is between that of the living entity and that of the Supreme Lord. In other words, Lord Śiva is neither the Supreme Personality of Godhead nor a living entity. He is the form through which the Supreme Lord works to beget living entities within this material world. As yogurt is prepared when milk is mixed with a culture, the form of Lord Śiva expands when the Supreme Personality of Godhead is in touch with material nature. The impregnation of material nature by the father, Lord Śiva, is wonderful because at one time innumerable living entities are conceived.

 

 

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http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/?p=1143982&postcount=104

 

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja has said that Siva-tattva is beyond our understanding.

Siva-tattva is very mysterious, but I like Srila Prabhupada's version that Siva is simultaneously Vishnu and jiva and that is why Siva-tattva is so difficult to grasp.

Siva doesn't fit into Vishnu-tattva or jiva tattva.

He is simultaneously God and jiva.

That is something that is hard to get your mind around, unless and until you understand the concept of shaktyavesha avatar and how Vishnu can enter into a jiva and give that jiva Godly powers.

Nothing is impossible for Vishnu.

If Vishnu wants to make a jiva into Vishnu-tattva, he can certainly do so.

He can also make a jiva into a combination of jiva and Vishnu-tattva as is the case with Lord Siva.

 

 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But . . . this is my concern for the shivite loving aspirant;

 

Where, in sastra, has Lord Shiva explained the topics:

jiva,

parkriti,

karma,

isvara,

kala (time),

the differences between the yogic schools of thought,

basic sitting silent meditation,

dharma,

moksha,

sat-sanga,

good vs passionate vs bad foods/actions/austerities/fearlessness/equanimity/faith/

sacrifice/charity/renunciation/knowledge/performers/(doers of actions)/understanding/determination/happiness/

and also,

milk sweet making at it most sublime best?

 

Maybe Shiva has read Bhagavad-gita? Maybe you'd get the chance one day to read Bhagavad-gita to Lord Shiva? Is there something better to read to Lord Shiva? Uddhava-Gita?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Mothman

 

have you got your answers from reading the above posts?

 

Kaisersoseji have given a good answer, i think.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[sambya]

 

 

have you got your answers from reading the above posts?

 

Kaisersoseji have given a good answer, i think.

 

 

 

yes , kaisersose's answer sums it up .

[bhaktajan]

Oh great, we have two Shiva Afficinados on board here!

Sriman Sambya & Sriman Ganeshprasad please provide the assembly of vaishnavas [or just direct your erudition solely at me] the answers to these questions:

 

Where, in sastra, has Lord Shiva explained the topics:

jiva,

parkriti,

karma,

isvara,

kala (time),

the differences between the yogic schools of thought,

basic sitting silent meditation,

dharma,

moksha,

sat-sanga,

good vs passionate vs bad foods/actions/austerities/fearlessness/equanimity/faith/

sacrifice/charity/renunciation/knowledge/performers/(doers of actions)/understanding/determination/happiness?

 

Please remember not to quote anyone except your Dear Bhagavan's melodious words.

[kaisersose]

 

Where, in sastra, has Lord Shiva explained the topics:

jiva,

parkriti,

karma,

isvara,

kala (time),

the differences between the yogic schools of thought,

basic sitting silent meditation,

dharma,

moksha,

sat-sanga,

good vs passionate vs bad foods/actions/austerities/fearlessness/equanimity/faith/

sacrifice/charity/renunciation/knowledge/performers/(doers of actions)/understanding/determination/happiness?

 

Please remember not to quote anyone except your Dear Bhagavan's melodious words.

 

jiva - Shaiva Puranas

parkriti- Shaiva Puranas

karma- Shaiva Puranas

isvara- Shaiva Puranas

kala (time)- Shaiva Puranas

the differences between the yogic schools of thought- Shaiva Puranas

basic sitting silent meditation- Shaiva Puranas

dharma- Shaiva Puranas

moksha- Shaiva Puranas

sat-sanga- Shaiva Puranas

good vs passionate vs bad - Shaiva Puranas sfoods/actions/austerities/fearlessness/equanimity/faith/ - Shaiva Puranas

sacrifice/charity/renunciation/knowledge/performers/(doers of actions)/understanding/determination/happiness?- Shaiva Puranas

 

You asked where and I told you where.

 

Obviously, no one is going to bother to quote details for they run into thousands of verses. But the good news is, you can always pony up the dough, buy a copy of the Vayu Purana and read it for yourself. Now if you did that and still did not find answers to your questions, then contact me again.

 

And perhaps you can explain to everyone why you need this information - assuming you really need it.

 

Cheers

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

Oh great, we have two Shiva Afficinados on board here!

Sriman Sambya & Sriman Ganeshprasad please provide the assembly of vaishnavas [or just direct your erudition solely at me] the answers to these questions:

 

Where, in sastra, has Lord Shiva explained the topics:

jiva,

parkriti,

karma,

isvara,

kala (time),

the differences between the yogic schools of thought,

basic sitting silent meditation,

dharma,

moksha,

sat-sanga,

good vs passionate vs bad foods/actions/austerities/fearlessness/equanimity/faith/

sacrifice/charity/renunciation/knowledge/performers/(doers of actions)/understanding/determination/happiness?

 

Well i was going to make a similar response but Kaisersoseji beat me to it.

you may also try Siva Gita.

 

Oh no i can hear a Tamsic Cry.

 

 

Please remember not to quote anyone except your Dear Bhagavan's melodious words.

 

i hope you take your own advise and not bore us by your copy paste someone else's opinion.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[smeyyappan]

Hi Mothman,

 

When you pose a question which is sectarian in nature, you will receive loads of replies which are helpless and of sectarian nature. God's Glories are far greater and we should not waste precious time in trying to know which form of God is Great. In fact He is greater than Forms and Names. Forms and Names and puranas are only for us to understand him better, but it is not all. Once I similarly started showing interest in knowing theglories of God through Holy Qur'an, but the translations and interpretaions of the translators were more keen on bashing of other religions than on describing God's Glories and hence I promised to myself I will not depend on others to know something who may promote only their belief. If you want to know something ask for His Grace, The Ocean of Mercy will show you your Guru. Until you find such a qualified Guru who sends for you, His name and singing His glories alone are your Guru. Don't try to see who is Great? It is only His secret. Even thousands of Vedas cannot completely expound His glories. He is so great, but He responds to each and every small query of ours.

 

Forms and Names are only ladders to reach Him. we have to make sure we don't remain on the ladders, happily thinking our faith is the greatest. In all, only God is great.

 

May All Glories be to The Supreme Love who created us, who is listening to us and responding to us. May all praise be to Him.

 

With Best Regards

Meyyappan S

[hindustani]

 

i hope you take your own advise and not bore us by your copy paste someone else's opinion.

 

Not new,he is known for huge copy paste business thus he carries boring posts most of time.Atleast I just scroll down and skip most of them.Wonder why he does not have his soul's voice and keep doing copy paste regularly?

[sambya]

 

Not new,he is known for huge copy paste business thus he carries boring posts most of time.Atleast I just scroll down and skip most of them.Wonder why he does not have his soul's voice and keep doing copy paste regularly?

 

and usually there is hardly anyone to response to his posts . except of course , when some new individual comes in the forum who has no knowledge about the 'creature' he is dealing with !!! i see them and sigh - poor chap !!

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It is unfortunate that someone asks a sincere question about shiva purana, and some members want to immediately come out with their sectarian attacks. It is for this reason that I feel a religious forum is pointless.

 

Is it justified to attack someone because they like Lord Shiva? Suppose we replace Shiva with some other religion. Would the same attack be appropriate?

 

For example, would it be appropriate to mock other religious people as follows:

 

Oh great, we have two Christ Afficinados on board here!

 

Oh great, we have two Buddha Afficinados on board here!

 

Oh great, we have two Islam Afficinados on board here!

 

Oh great, we have two Yahwey Afficinados on board here!

 

It is sad to see some people's hatred for Hinduism while they themselves follow a subset of it. Sectarian hatred is what makes religion useless. Whether it is Christian sectarianism, Islamic sectarianism, or Hindu sectarianism (under the brand Vaishnava).

 

If a thread doesn't interest you or tally with your belief system, then please don't read it. If there is someone asking about Shiva, Shakti or Ganesh, and if you hate those devas, then please don't read the thread. Try to control your speech. Only speak on those topics which you hold dear.

 

As has been mentioned many times, this is not a vaishnava forum. Have the courtesy to respect all vedic religions here even if you disagree with them. It is a fact that basically all Vaishnavas here have never even read Shiva Purana, so they should just keep quiet. If you don't know a topic, please resist the uncontrollable urge to speak.

 

I used to participate regularly in these forums, but because of so many meaningless posts I lost interest in even reading the forums. Now I don't even have much interest to keep the forums open, as 50% of what is posted here is basically rubbish, with the other 50% being actually valuable information. If we count the number of innocent posters like the starter of this thread who have visited and posted sincere questions on Hinduism, only to be smashed with the vaishnava know it all hammer, it will be thousands and thousands of people. Is it worth it, offending thousands of sincere seekers, just to have a place for religious people to argue?

 

The mistake was that I thought Vaishnavas and Hindus could co-exist and discuss religion and philosophy in close proximity. This has obviously proven to be a false assumption.

[sambya]

 

It is sad to see some people's hatred for Hinduism while they themselves follow a subset of it. Sectarian hatred is what makes religion useless. Whether it is Christian sectarianism, Islamic sectarianism, or Hindu sectarianism (under the brand Vaishnava).

 

If a thread doesn't interest you or tally with your belief system, then please don't read it. If there is someone asking about Shiva, Shakti or Ganesh, and if you hate those devas, then please don't read the thread. Try to control your speech. Only speak on those topics which you hold dear.

 

As has been mentioned many times, this is not a vaishnava forum. Have the courtesy to respect all vedic religions here even if you disagree with them. It is a fact that basically all Vaishnavas here have never even read Shiva Purana, so they should just keep quiet. If you don't know a topic, please resist the uncontrollable urge to speak.

 

I used to participate regularly in these forums, but because of so many meaningless posts I lost interest in even reading the forums. Now I don't even have much interest to keep the forums open, as 50% of what is posted here is basically rubbish, with the other 50% being actually valuable information. If we count the number of innocent posters like the starter of this thread who have visited and posted sincere questions on Hinduism, only to be smashed with the vaishnava know it all hammer, it will be thousands and thousands of people. Is it worth it to offend thousands of sincere seekers just to have a place for religious people to argue?

 

The mistake was that I thought Vaishnavas and Hindus could co-exist and discuss religion and philosophy in close proximity. This has obviously proven to be a false assumption.

 

beutifull . this is precisely what i have been trying to convey to vaishnvas here .

 

im speechless with joy to see an administrator realise this simple truth and advising people accordingly , inspite of his being a vaishnva himself .

 

dandavats to you jahnava ............. you are truly a vaishnav !!

 

[sambya]

i was wondering why this sectarianism primarily shows up in vaishnvas ?

 

previously most sects were sectarian including shaktas or shaivas . but over years most of them have become more or less tolerant of other sects and often show a serious attempt to reconcile themselves with the opposing veiw .

 

but for the most vaishnavas this seems not to be the case !!

[raghu]

 

It is sad to see some people's hatred for Hinduism while they themselves follow a subset of it....

 

As has been mentioned many times, this is not a vaishnava forum. Have the courtesy to respect all vedic religions here even if you disagree with them.

 

 

I have been trying to say the same thing on this forum for many years now.

 

I have repeatedly taken issue with the "hatred for Hinduism" (your words) which manifests itself as certain "Vaishnavas" repeatedly heaping all kinds of condescending remarks on Hinduism - i.e. that it is "hodge podge,mundane," etc. Similarly, we have seen discussion of traditional varnashrama system degenerating into more of these "Vaishnavas" denouncing it as "smartha caste brahmin" culture. Even Acharya Madhva and his followers have been attacked. There seems to be no end to the hatred - even other Vaishnavas are targets.

 

I tried to start a thread on this forum recently to raise the level of awareness regarding this anti-Hinduism prejudice. Without any explanation, the entire thread was deleted. Meanwhile, those who continue to post abusive remarks against Hinduism are allowed to do so with impunity.

 

So what is to be done? Perhaps we should be resigned to the fact that hatred of Hinduism is en vogue and is not going away any time soon. Hinduism hs become everyone's favorite kicking dog. When you are in a bad mood, just spew venom against Hinduism. When even this forum's moderators protect the haters and censor those who try to make a change, one is left with the impression that it is unreasonable to stand up against anti-Hindu prejudice. Presumably because it comes from certain "Vaishnavas" and is therefore legitimate on that basis. I personally think this is rubbish, but then again, as many have stated, I am merely a "confused Hindu,a smartha caste brahmin," etc

[raghu]

 

i was wondering why this sectarianism primarily shows up in vaishnvas ?

 

previously most sects were sectarian including shaktas or shaivas . but over years most of them have become more or less tolerant of other sects and often show a serious attempt to reconcile themselves with the opposing veiw .

 

but for the most vaishnavas this seems not to be the case !!

 

Several points:

 

1) The definition of "sectarianism" seems to mean different things to different people. There is nothing wrong with believing in the correctness of one's views and the incorrectness of contradictory views, so long as one can discuss them in an informed and cultured manner.

 

2) If by "sectarianism" you are referring to loud, brash, and rude bickering characteristic of Audarya, then I beg to differ with your assumption that it is a problem with "Vaishnavas." On the contrary, it is primarily a problem with one specific group of "Vaishnavas." You and I both know who they are, but i do not want to name them for fear that this posting will be deleted.

 

3) Shaivism and Shaktaism is no more all-accepting in their assumptions than Vaishnavism is. For that matter, even Neo-Vedantins are not so all-accepting. In his Complete Works, Swami Vivekananda blames all of the religious conflicts in the world on Dvaita. Similar attitudes are found in many Neo-Hindu leaders who essentially argue that the God-jiva dichotomy is inherently intolerant, racist, bigoted, etc. This attitude is itself prejudice, so no holier-than-thou conclusions can be extrapolated about non-Vaishnavas.

[sambya]

 

The definition of "sectarianism" seems to mean different things to different people. There is nothing wrong with believing in the correctness of one's views and the incorrectness of contradictory views, so long as one can discuss them in an informed and cultured manner.

 

 

thats true ...

 

 

Shaivism and Shaktaism is no more all-accepting in their assumptions than Vaishnavism is.

but i have noticed that shaivism and shaktism is far more tolerent than vaishnavsim . although i must admit that my experiance would be limited due to my age .

 

even in this forum you hardly find any shaiva or shakta hating a vaishnava....

 

 

 

In his Complete Works, Swami Vivekananda blames all of the religious conflicts in the world on Dvaita.

yes but he was not sectarian ........he rather hated sectarianism. and many statements that he makes are just statement of truths of that time . here he was just mentoning the facts .

 

but what he blamed was not the philosophy behind the dvaita . what he was pointing out was the ill effects that dvaita philosophy often seem to generate among the common low-adhikari masses .

 

an advitist is taught since the begining that all gods are forms of same brahman . this teaching reduced the chances of hating other gods .

 

but a dvaitist is taught that his or her chosen diety is the highest . such teachings stand the grater chance of promoting hatred .

 

but at the same time , i would like to point out that even advaitins did have strong biases !! but modern advaitins are generally not so bad .

[hindustani]

Resp.soul J.N.Dasji

Namaste and I too vouch about the quality of posts in forum nowadays,best policy is you become strict,give infraction to those who each time try to pull legs of others and come up with offencive comments hearting their sentiments.Nothing is better than to warn them by giving infraction so others will also try to stop crossing limits,put some fair moderators here who are not biased.I too raised my voice when Raghu's post deleted but in responce whole thread vanished in the air!I can feel your pain when you say that you stopped visiting this forum so best is you become active and act in such a way that level of spirituality remains in this forum else one day this forum will close automatically sometimes I too feel losing interest seeing some hopeless replies-posts here since last few days/weeks.

Jay ShriKrishna bandhu.