melvin Posted June 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 I didn't say he is avtaar. Swami Prabhupad is not an avatar, Ranjeetmore, but a servant of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted June 23, 2009 Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 i meant Ramkrishna,melvin,not SP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2009 i meant Ramkrishna,melvin,not SP Was Ramakrishna a servant of God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 No if you actually read about ramarkishna just wikipedia him youll know some reasons why srila prabupada said it.Ramakrishna had again and again claimed to be rama and krishna.His devotees of the ramakrishna mission were all propaganding such things. You mean, Sant, that Ramakrishna is a combination of Rama and Krishna just like Sri Caitanya is a combination of Radha and Krishna? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 You mean, Sant, that Ramakrishna is a combination of Rama and Krishna just like Sri Caitanya is a combination of Radha and Krishna? .Basically an avtar.Not a combination but he tells vivekanda something like -'i am the one who was rama and krishna earlier' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 .Basically an avtar.Not a combination but he tells vivekanda something like -'i am the one who was rama and krishna earlier' What was the Goal of Ramakrishna, Sant ? If it is Love of God then he is with us not against us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 What was the Goal of Ramakrishna, Sant ? If it is Love of God then he is with us not against us. Advaitist,bhakt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali_Upasaka Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Sri Ramakrishna was basically a Kali Bhaktha. And also one who was a devotee of Krishna and Chaitanya Maha Prabhu whom he considered as GOD. If you are interested I can post quotes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Sri Ramakrishna was basically a Kali Bhaktha. And also one who was a devotee of Krishna and Chaitanya Maha Prabhu whom he considered as GOD. If you are interested I can post quotes. But he was also an advaitist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali_Upasaka Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Yes. But as I said earlier what he practiced was pure Bhakthi and total surrender. Saranagatha. Ram Prasad Sen was a Tantrik of the highest order. But he was also a Bhaktha who believed in Saranagatha. Confusing. But factually true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Yes. But as I said earlier what he practiced was pure Bhakthi and total surrender. Saranagatha. Ram Prasad Sen was a Tantrik of the highest order. But he was also a Bhaktha who believed in Saranagatha. Confusing. But factually true. For advaitists bhakti is just a stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali_Upasaka Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Theories, Sant and practice are different. BTW when everyone thought Sri Ramakrishna was mad because he went into Samadhi often, it was Bhairavi Brahmani who said that it is the highest Bhava. It is she who first said that Sri Ramkrishna was an Avatar. She convened a meeting of scholars (mostly Vaishnavites) to prove that he is an Avatar. The name Ramakrishna was most probably given by her. She was a Gaudiya Vaishnavite. I do not think I can convince you. But any assumption that the followers of Advaita are opposed to Krishna will be foolish to say the least. Most of the devotees of Krishna in India are followers of Advaita. There are more Krishna temples (tonnes of them) in the small state of Kerala than in Bengal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 gaudiya vaishnavite who followed tantra..I'm not taunting...but can you explain how it works ????? i mean...how ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ranjeetmore Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 advaitas who perform krsna bhakti are certainly not foolish...but they surely are stubborn...Gauranga is shouting,"Don't ask for mukti ! Don't ever ask for mukti !!" and they are adamant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chandu_69 Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 gaudiya vaishnavite who followed tantra..I'm not taunting...but can you explain how it works ????? i mean...how ?? If you ask him(kali_upasaka) to clarify anything he gets angry and put you on ignore list.If he says Bhairava brahmani( the person who declared Rk as avtar) is a vaishnavite you have to accept it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali_Upasaka Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 gaudiya vaishnavite who followed tantra..I'm not taunting...but can you explain how it works ????? i mean...how ?? Now I remember to have read somewhere that Bhairavi Brahmani belonged to the Gaudiya Vaishnavsm. But this is something which we had discussed among our friends. I am not able to recollect the name of the book. The only known Tantrik sect in Vaishnavism was Sahajiya Vaishnavism. Wikipedia says In 1861, Bhairavi Brahmani, an orange robed, middle-aged female ascetic appeared at Dakshineshwar. She carried with her the Raghuvir Shila, a stone icon representing Ram and all Vaishnava deities. She was throughly conversant with the texts of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and practiced Tantra. According to the Bhairavi, Ramakrishna was experiencing phenomena that accompany mahabhava—the supreme attitude of loving devotion towards the divine and quoting from the bhakti shastras, she said that other religious figures like Radha and Chaitanya had similar experiences. Looking upon him as Sri Chaitanya, she read out to him ‘Sri Charitamrita’ and other Vaishnava holy books. When she saw him listening to Vedanta from Totapuri, Brahmini would warn him and say, ‘Baba, don’t listen to Vedanta. It will dilute your bhava and bhakti.’ - Kathamrita Bhairavi Brahmani asked Mathur Babu to convene a meeting of the scholars where Vaishnava Charan a Vaishnavite scholar declared Sri Ramakrishna to be an Avatar. You can read about it here http://books.google.com/books?id=6qVMrumO-g0C&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=Bhairavi+Brahmani&source=bl&ots=-ktRzWfQHN&sig=Kq8VMJkhxImd2f5jtUwGM5MleJU&hl=en&ei=V29ESuaCL4aCkQWupr2kDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7 Vaishnava Charan, a pundit of the Vaishnava sect, often visited him. It was he who took Thakur to an assembly of Chaitanya’s bhaktas in Calootola. In this assembly, Thakur Sri Ramakrishna experienced the state of God‑consciousness and had stepped up and occupied the seat of Sri Chaitanya. Vaishnava Charan was the president of this Chaitanya assembly. Vaishnava Charan had told Mathur, ‘This madness is not ordinary, it is the madness of love. He is mad for the Lord.’ Vaishnava Charan and the Brahmini had seen Thakur’s state of mahabhava (divine ecstasy). Like Chaitanya Deva, he sometimes passed through the state of super-consciousness (samadhi . like a piece of wood, unmindful of the world around), sometimes in the state of semi-consciousness and sometimes he would come into the state of outer-consciousness. http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:ikHVg_A2OTAJ:www.kathamrita.org/kathamrita/k1intro.htm+vaishnav+charan&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a So Bhairavi Brahmani is a riddle. How did she know about Gaudiya Vaishnavism? Why was she carrying all those books? How does a Tantrik worship Raghubir Sila? I have not written this to prove anything. Only to show the close association of Vaishnavism in the life of Sri Ramakrishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambya Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 as with many other things sant and ranjeet both have a confusing stand on ramakrishna . on one hand he is a great saint and on the other he misleads people ! he is a mahtama(as per kripaluji) and again he taught wrong things ! both cannot be simultaneously correct ! if he is a saint all his teachings must be correct ( although it might not suit you or may not be your path) . and if his teachings are wrong then he cannot be called a saint . this is so obvious . i think both of you are actually in disagreement with his veiws and also have certain sunconscious hatred towards him and at the same time cannot deny the popularity of the person . that is why you take this confusing stand . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali_Upasaka Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 advaitas who perform krsna bhakti are certainly not foolish...but they surely are stubborn...Gauranga is shouting,"Don't ask for mukti ! Don't ever ask for mukti !!" and they are adamant. A Bhaktha is one who loves GOD. I had a very interesting discussion with a Vaishnava (not Gaudiya) sometime back. He refused to accept the people who worship in temples as Bhakthas at all. According to him only Para bhakthi is Bhakthi. Again according to their belief system You can qualify to be a Bhaktha only after you have mastered Karma and Jnana yogas. After you have reached Atma Chaitanyam. To me Bhakthi is Love for GOD. Just because someone goes to the temple for getting over a murder charge, does not make him inferior to me. Who am I to decide? To me Saranagathi is all. A person who does Saranagathi does not decide whether he wants Mukthi and what type of Mukthi or salvation or whatever you call it. Total surrender means leaving everything to GOD. Do not ask for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambya Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 gaudiya vaishnavite who followed tantra..I'm not taunting...but can you explain how it works ????? i mean...how ?? well im not commenting on the issue of bhairavi brahmani because i have not read it anywhere else apart from wikipidea ( but im sure i have a lot more to read ) . but there can be gaudiya vaishnavas who also follows tantra . as we know many important concepts of modern hinduism came in from tantra ....... like mudra , yantra , bija etc . tantras are also accepted by vaishnavas including gaudiya vaishnavs . there are certain tantras which are classified as vaishnava tantras like gautamiya tantra . they are considered to be sattvick in nature by vaishnavas . after chaitanya mahaprabhu vaishnavism disintigrated into numerous sects . it was such individual families and esoteric sects through which gaudiya vaishnavism was transmitted . the GV that you see today is largely a modern reconstruction . during those times tantra and GV frequently merged simply because both were dominant in bengal . tanras have entire chapters dedicated to krishna upasana , gopal mantra sadhana and radhatatva . a person could get initiated in krishna mantra and be a practising vaishnav through a tantric sect . such tanricks primarily worshipped vasudeva or salagram . similarly G vaishnavas often adopted more tanric practises like worship of kali and organised lavish durgotsavas . the difference betwwen the two was marginal . you can still get a idea of what i am saying by visiting shantipur - the birthplace of advaita acharya and cultural town of bengal . on the festival of rasayatra the descendents of advaita acharya take oput huge processions with radha krishna deities and there are countless kali pujas all over the town even in a purnima day !! later this gaudiya vaishnavism was restructed and resurrected by bhaktivinoda thakura and sarswati thakura which besides doing a lot of good , also destroyed the most distinguishing features of chaitanya movement . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 well im not commenting on the issue of bhairavi brahmani because i have not read it anywhere else apart from wikipidea ( but im sure i have a lot more to read ) . but there can be gaudiya vaishnavas who also follows tantra . as we know many important concepts of modern hinduism came in from tantra ....... like mudra , yantra , bija etc . tantras are also accepted by vaishnavas including gaudiya vaishnavs . there are certain tantras which are classified as vaishnava tantras like gautamiya tantra . they are considered to be sattvick in nature by vaishnavas . after chaitanya mahaprabhu vaishnavism disintigrated into numerous sects . it was such individual families and esoteric sects through which gaudiya vaishnavism was transmitted . the GV that you see today is largely a modern reconstruction . during those times tantra and GV frequently merged simply because both were dominant in bengal . tanras have entire chapters dedicated to krishna upasana , gopal mantra sadhana and radhatatva . a person could get initiated in krishna mantra and be a practising vaishnav through a tantric sect . such tanricks primarily worshipped vasudeva or salagram . similarly G vaishnavas often adopted more tanric practises like worship of kali and organised lavish durgotsavas . the difference betwwen the two was marginal . you can still get a idea of what i am saying by visiting shantipur - the birthplace of advaita acharya and cultural town of bengal . on the festival of rasayatra the descendents of advaita acharya take oput huge processions with radha krishna deities and there are countless kali pujas all over the town even in a purnima day !! later this gaudiya vaishnavism was restructed and resurrected by bhaktivinoda thakura and sarswati thakura which besides doing a lot of good , also destroyed the most distinguishing features of chaitanya movement . Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math, whose Founder and President Srila Sridhar Maharaj and whose successor Sevaite President Srila Govinda Maharaj I believe has rectified this problem ( gaudiya vaishnavism) already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sant Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 deleted I was indisposed when you posted that, Sant. Do keep up with the good work, my friend. The reactions you have posted on the various threads in the forum, deeply I know, come from the bottom of your heart. The honesty and humility they show speak for itself. And here I quote: One sees well only with the heart. What`s essential is invisible to the eye. ( Taken from the book The Little Prince written by Antoine de Sant Exupery ) Jaya Sri Radhey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chandu_69 Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Had "Charles martel" and Odo the Great, Duke of Aquitaine, thought that only love matters Christianity would not have survived in Europe and perhaps in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel quote He is perhaps best remembered for winning the Battle of Tours in 732, in which he defeated an invading Muslim army and halted northward Islamic expansion in western Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melvin Posted June 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Had "Charles martel" and Odo the Great, Duke of Aquitaine, thought that only love matters Christianity would not have survived in Europe and perhaps in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel quote He is perhaps best remembered for winning the Battle of Tours in 732, in which he defeated an invading Muslim army and halted northward Islamic expansion in western Europe. Tell that to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Chandu_69, my friend. If that`s the case, then there`s no substance to this slogan," Love conquers All!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chandu_69 Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Tell that to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Chandu_69, my friend. If that`s the case, then there`s no substance to this slogan," Love conquers All!" What Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said/taught has to be viewed with in the context of GITA.Caitanya Mahaprabhu teachings are not above GITA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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