Ecumenism: Diplomacy or Sincere Exchange?

[theist]

 

Dear Mayor of the City,

I am a "_________" so, accordingly I am expressing my views as based on the Vedas of ancient India . . .

 

or,

 

Dear Congress member, or,

Dear Television News Person, or,

Dear Local Council member, or,

Dear Police Chief member, or,

 

I'm seeking a secular [non-sectarian] nomenclature for a non-accredited Scholar/activist/self-motivated spokesman of societal Issues from the Vedic POV ---without the stumbling-blocks of disparagement by the secular party that I will be approaching.

 

Student of Eastern Philosophy maybe if you want to keep it kind of vague.

[bhaktajan]

Seasoned "Student of Eastern Philosophy" seems workable ---thank you for the consideration!

[melvin]

Best put. I`m a seasoned student of eastern philosophy who loves to eat black forest cake and rocky road ice cream.

[chandu_69]

 

Let’s agree then that there is much controversy regarding the concept of "hell" in Christianity, even among different Popes..

 

Not exactly.Pope John paul 2 expressed his desire that Hell be described differently then what is proclaimed by Jesus.

 

 

 

The official Church represented By respective denominations of catholics, protestants, Southern Baptists etc Affirm that punishment in Hell is real and eternal for those who don't accept Jesus as Savior.

 

Only a small minority of christians like seventh day adventists reject Eternal hell.

[primate]

 

Not exactly.Pope John paul 2 expressed his desire that Hell be described differently then what is proclaimed by Jesus.

 

 

 

The official Church represented By respective denominations of catholics, protestants, Southern Baptists etc Affirm that punishment in Hell is real and eternal for those who don't accept Jesus as Savior.

 

Only a small minority of christians like seventh day adventists reject Eternal hell.

Let’s say that it’s clear that the Roman Catholic Church is extremely ambivalent about the ontological status of hell, both in its catechism and in statements of the Vatican such as: Hell as a "state of eternal separation from God", must be understood "symbolically rather than physically". (see post #93).

 

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." So, the final wages the incorrigible sinful will receive is not eternal punishment in hell, but simply death or cessation of life. Jesus mostly speaks of 'hell' using the word hades (the grave). Gehenna (the unquenchable fire) is mentioned only a few times in the New Testament as the final destruction (not punishment or torture) of those who do not repent and willfully accept God’s merciful love.

 

Anyway, I think I made it clear that I don’t accept that the concept of hell (Gehenna) as a place of eternal punishment by fire is consistent with the (original) New Testament. And I agree with Theist that hell as "a state of eternal separation from God" can be seen as similar to the Vedic notion of being eternally conditioned to material life, which is described clearly as a miserable (damned) state of being, relative to a liberated and purely spiritual state of being (eternal life)..

[chandu_69]

 

Let’s say that it’s clear that the Roman Catholic Church is extremely ambivalent about the ontological status of hell, both in its catechism and in statements of the Vatican such as: Hell as a "state of eternal separation from God", must be understood "symbolically rather than physically". (see post #93).

 

True.They(The Vatican) don't want to be seen contradicting Jesus on his explicit statements of Eternal fire in Hell while trying to sound more civilized than islam.

 

 

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

"

 

When The same word aionios(greek) is used to describe Eternal life it should also describe Eternal hell.

 

 

So, the final wages the incorrigible sinful will receive is not eternal punishment in hell, but simply death or cessation of life. Jesus mostly speaks of 'hell' using the word hades (the grave). Gehenna (the unquenchable fire) is mentioned only a few times in the New Testament as the final destruction (not punishment or torture) of those who do not repent and willfully accept God’s merciful love.

That is an opinion which is not supported by Jesus explicit words.It is no wonder Vatican tries unsuccessfully to give spin while not explicitly disowning jesus's statements

 

 

Anyway, I think I made it clear that I don’t accept that the concept of hell (Gehenna) as a place of eternal punishment by fire is consistent with the (original) New Testament.

A good number ordinary Christians(not the Evangelical types who tries to scare people and convert) are coming around to that view but the official church cannot take that position as evidenced by their doctrinal stance.

[primate]

 

When The same word aionios(greek) is used to describe Eternal life it should also describe Eternal hell.

 

I think the term 'eternal (aionios) life' in Romans 6:23, is an attempt to indicate a state of being alive that is different from our common understanding of temporary material life, similar to the Vedic notion of a liberated spriritual state of being. Aionios hell means age lasting hell, like the Vedic notion of a (eternally) conditioned material state of being, which can only be ended through God-consciousness.

 

 

That is an opinion which is not supported by Jesus explicit words.It is no wonder Vatican tries unsuccessfully to give spin while not explicitly disowning jesus's statements

 

Where does Jesus say that people will be eternally punished or tortured in Gehenna?

 

 

A good number ordinary Christians(not the Evangelical types who tries to scare people and convert) are coming around to that view but the official church cannot take that position as evidenced by their doctrinal stance.

 

Does this mean we have an agreement?

[chandu_69]

 

I think the term 'eternal (aionios) life' in Romans 6:23, is an attempt to indicate a state of...blah blah

The term is αιώνιος in romans 6:23

αιώνιος is an adjective of αLώνιος.It represnts

eternal timeless, forever etc..

 

The term is used to describe god as eternal in Bible(Nt).

 

αἰώνιον is the term used by Jesus to describe eternal fire.Here is the actual link with Greek

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

 

You are trying to imply something spiritual in bible where as what you see is father son duo scaring the hell outta people.

 

Father is ready to punish

Son is ready to save.

 

Add some thing in between to fill up an otherwise dry and boring narration.

[primate]

 

The Greek noun “aion” literally means “an age” or “an indeterminate period of time.” Hebrews 1:2 tells us that “God made the ages,” and the Apostle Paul tells us that there was a state of existence BEFORE the ages (1 Cor. 2:7) and that the ages will END. (1 Cor. 10:11) Clearly, if something begins and ends, it cannot be unending.

 

The adjective “aionios” comes from the noun “aion” and means “age-abiding” or “age-lasting.” It is a common rule of language that an adjective can have no more force than the noun from which it is derived. For example, if I say that my grandfather is my elder, I mean to say that he is older than myself, and therefore, is to be respected. However, if I change this noun to its adjective form, this, in no way, changes the meaning of the word. By using the word elderly, I am still saying that my grandfather is old. It’s the same meaning—all that has changed is the form. The same is true with “aionios.” If “aion” (the noun) means “an indeterminate period of time” then it goes to follow that “aionios” (the adjective) will also have the same basic meaning.

 

This adjective is never found until the writings of Plato (427 BC - 347 BC) who only used the word five times, and while he did use this word in the context of eternity, he never used it by itself to mean such. Why? Because the word, in and of itself does not mean “eternity.” Whenever he wanted to convey the idea of eternity, he always combined a stronger forced word with it (such as “aidios”), but not once did he ever use “aionios” by itself to mean “endless.” However, both Plato and Aristotle did use the word “aionios” by itself to mean temporary.

 

Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

 

 

The entire concept of eternal or everlasting punishment hinges primarily on a single verse of Scripture--Matthew 25:46. This is the only place in the entire Bible where we find these two words together and only in some Bibles. There are over a dozen English translations which do NOT contain the concept of "eternal punishment" on ANY of their pages, NOR the pagan concept of Hell.

 

...

 

The noun "aion" in Greek literature has always meant "an indeterminate period of time. It could be as short as the time Jonah spent in the belly of a fish (three days or nights), the length of a man's life, or as long as a very long age.

 

"Eternal" Punishment (Matthew 25:46) is NOT True to the Greek Language

 

 

The verbal pivot on which swings the question, Does the Bible teach the doctrine of Endless Punishment? Is the word Aión and its derivatives and reduplications. The author of this treatise has endeavored to put within brief compass the essential facts pertaining to the history and use of the word, and he thinks he has conclusively shown that it affords no support whatever to the erroneous doctrine. It will generally be conceded that the tenet referred to is not contained in the Scriptures if the meaning of endless duration does not reside in the controverted word. The reader is implored to examine the evidence presented, as the author trusts it has been collected, with a sincere desire to learn the truth.

 

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

 

 

 

… (1) the fulfillment of the language in this life, (2) the meaning of aiónion, (3) and the meaning of kolasis, demonstrate that the penalty threatened in Matt. 25:46, is a limited one. It is a threefold cord that human skill cannot break. Prof. Tayler Lewis thus translates Matt. 25:46. "These shall go away into the punishment (the restraint, imprisonment,) of the world to come, and those into the life of the world to come." And he says, "that is all that we can etymologically or exegetically make of the word [aiónion] in this passage."

 

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

 

 

An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been vivified, or made alive, IN CHRIST. There will then be no more death. Just as life is destroyed by death, so death is destroyed by life. Our present bodies are mortal and corruptible (1 Cor. 15:44-55), but when mankind is made alive IN CHRIST they will be raised immortal and incorruptible.

 

Chapter Eleven

 

Edited July 27, 2009 by primate

[melvin]

 

Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

 

You are trying to imply something spiritual in bible where as what you see is father son duo scaring the hell outta people.

 

 

 

Being reincarnated into a hog and butchered later is scarier.

[melvin]

Taken after my father`s birthday (May 29). The one you see standing on the left is me. Next to me is my brother, Jun. Seated on the left is my mother Julie. At center is my father, Dr. Mario. On the left is my sister, Dr. Mae Rebecca. We have prepared for you a sumptuous dinner. Please come! All are invited to the banquet.

[melvin]

Correction: Taken after my father`s birthday (May 29). The one you see standing from right to left is me, my brother, Jun & my brother-in-law, Dr jay-R.. Sitting on the sofa from right to left is my niece, Maricel,my wife Celsa, my mother Julie, my father, Dr. Mario & my sister, Dr. Mae Rebecca. Sitting on the floor from right to left is my nephew Jojed, my daughter Melsa, grand daughters, Liklik, Althea, Nina, & grand son Macmac with her mother Marlyn & my son Matthew. Please come. All are invited to the banquet we have prepared just for you ( a very sumptuous invisible meal ).